That, of course, was Peter Lawford at the end, along with Mel Torme, The Velvet Fog.
Dennis: Velvet Fog?
Bob: That was his nickname – The Velvet Fog. You never heard that? That's from the movie, "Good News," starring June Allyson and Peter Lawford.
Dennis: What year was it made?
Bob: 1943 – I don't remember. I think it was '42.
Dennis: Your mastery of these details is a little troubling sometimes.
Bob: But the song is a sweet song, and it's probably true, but you'd have a hard time getting anybody to believe it today. The best things in life, you know, "the moon belongs to everybody" – who needs money? The best things in life are free, right?
Dennis: Yes, well …
Bob: iPods still cost, I've noticed.
Dennis: That's right, there are things that take money, and love may not take money, but life takes it.
Bob: Life takes money.
Dennis: Life takes money. We have with us a leader in the research area of education from the University of Denver – Scott Stanley joins us. Welcome back, Scott.
Scott: Thank you.
Dennis: Scott is the co-director of the Center for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver where he got his Ph.D., and he's written a book called You Paid How Much For That? Or, as it's probably said in most marriages – [yells] "You paid how much for that?!"
Bob: A little more volume added to that? The subtitle is great – How to Win at Money Without Losing at Love.
Dennis: And I've been waiting to ask Scott this question because – you have two children. You've been married since 1982, and someday your two sons are going to get married, and they're going to come to you and, well, they probably won't ask you because you will have already told them, but if your sons did come to you starting out their marriage, and they said, "Dad, what's the best three pieces of advice you could give me concerning marriage and money," what would it be, Scott?
Scott: Well, the starting point is to think like a team, and it's not me versus you. When you get married, it's us, and it's us with a future. So the starting point is there, and the second point very related to the "S" point is that future point – to maintain that sense that we have a future as a couple, because marriage gets hard from time to time, and the financial part of marriage gets hard from time to time.
What gets couples through is that strong sense of a commitment to a future that allows us to ride the ups and downs. And it's just like in the stock market – people that get killed in the stock market are people that are trying to time it when it's going up and down, and happiness in marriage is like that.
I don't know about you gentlemen, but I am not always deliriously happy with Nancy. And probably much more important, she's not always deliriously happy with me and, in fact, I know this will be hard for you two to believe, but she tries to improve me at times.
Bob: How's that working out for her?
Dennis: Has there been much improvement since '82?
Scott: I'd say, you know, I'm moderately improvable, which is what most women seek in a husband.
Dennis: I'm tempted to call Nancy right now, but this is not a program on marital improvement, this is about marital money. What's the third thought for your sons?
Scott: The third thing is to be responsible. I know you're into this phrase right now, and I totally believe in this concept of teaching them to step up. Men and women can both be responsible in life, they both are responsible for so many things regardless of how couples divide up duties in life, but it's very clear that men have always taken on an added sense historically that I need to be extra financially responsible now that I'm married, now that I'm a husband, and especially when I'm a father.
So many couples now both work outside the home. Nancy did for a while, and she actually doesn't now, but we were okay with that when she did, and we've been okay with it when she doesn't, but given that women still have the babies – I've noticed this, by the way.
Bob: Research shows.
Scott: You know, women have the babies, and that means even for couples where they're both working outside the home, there is likely to be a period – I know there are some exceptions, and there's exceptions to everything, because like would there be a period where his job stability and responsibility at that might be a little more crucial for the family than hers.
In fact, they may even want – a lot of women who are very career-oriented these days still would like to cut back during those years. Any way you slice it, one of the things that men can really bring to family stability and security is responsibility about work and about making income.
Bob: You know, we can talk about money advice, cutting up the credit cards if you get into debt trouble; we can talk about having a budget, we can talk about the importance of giving or tithing – all of these issues, but we've got a lot of folks listening who are saying, "We've heard those things, we're still not getting there. There's still something that's got us locked up. We're not winning at money, but we're not winning at love, either.
Scott: And we're losing at love also.
Bob: So where do you take them, Scott? How do we get to the issue where they can get on the same page, they can be a team, they can start looking together at the issue, put the issue on the table, and work on it together rather than thinking your mate's the enemy and getting locked up in conflict?
Scott: Well, you said it very well there. There's two fundamental ways to divide up the whole landscape about money and marriage. One is getting on the same page and working as a team, and that means being able to communicate; that means being able to rein in the conflicts about money; that means not letting events about money trigger big arguments about the issues of money. Setting aside time to think ahead to make decisions ahead and be proactive. All of those things speak to that sense of teamwork going through life together. And then the other side is being smart about money.
The fact is that we live in culture in America where we have more than we’ve ever had but there is probably in many ways more financial ignorance on a day to day basis about spending. For example you hear young people talk in this day not about how much they’ve saved but how good their credit is. It scares the life out of me when I hear a young person saying that. I mean it’s okay to have good credit because it’s bad to have bad credit but your credit isn’t where you are at financially. It might reflect it partially but people need to be thinking more in terms of saving and having some security in that.
Bob: And if a couple finds themselves locked up with fundamentally different approaches or values when it comes to financial issues, then it's time to get with some older, wiser mentors and counselors. People, who can step in and with the wisdom of experience, can get you to see each other's viewpoints and maybe see that one person does have a leg up on the other one in terms of financial wisdom.
Scott: See that’s a great example where couples could use a referee. It’s got to be someone they both can trust that they both feel is going to be fair or else it won’t work. If I have just my parent come in and give us advice and my parent tends to think the way I think because they raised me so that’s not going to be fair to her.
They need to find someone they would both trust so they can lay out those decisions in front of them hopefully like you say an older couple who has a little more wisdom and has been through that. They can say well that is not such a good idea.
That's the kind of thing that churches could play a much more powerful role in. There is somewhat of a mentoring movement going on in this country, and churches are really at the forefront of it, and that's a great thing.
The problem with that is we are so individualistic in America, people no more want to go talk to strangers about – I mean – people may actually and, oddly enough, in America now feel more comfortable going to talk to people about sex than about money. I mean, there's a very – there can be shame and all kinds of things, but for couples locked down like that, boy, they need some external source of advice that can help them get out of that loop.
Dennis: Yes, and I compared it with a couple that I was attempting to help recently, where she was in one ditch, he was in the other, and what they both needed was a third party wrecker to step into both their lives and pull them both out of their separate ditches back onto the right road where they could then get some …
Scott: Get them pointed the right way …
Dennis: Yes, get some coaching and head it in the right direction. You talk about the golden ground rules for talking about money, and I think a lot of our listeners would benefit from you going through a few of those. This first one is when conflict is escalating we'll call a time out.
Scott: This is so crucial. Every couple needs to have a way to put the brakes on when it's not going well, because I don't care whose marriage it is, every couple gets in a tiff from time to time. And for couples that do that often, whether it's money or children, those are the two most common argument starters – or whatever else it is, they're not going to do as well in life. I mean, the research is so clear about that. So everybody needs a way to stop, and the idea with time out is simply this – let's have an agreed-upon way that we both will honor to put the brakes on it when it's not going well.
That's so crucial because what tends to happen instead is one is really pushing – they may be both yelling, but even more often is one is really pushing, and the other is pulling away, and that doesn't work for either, but this is an agreed-upon signal – I think we need to take a time out, cool down a bit, and then maybe we talk about it tomorrow after dinner, or maybe we talk about it in two hours.
Bob: It's really a statement ahead of time that we're going to value one another more than the issue that we're dealing with.
Dennis: Or winning or losing.
Bob: That's right.
Scott: Absolutely, and, in fact, one of the things that happens, and money is just the best example of this, as I said earlier, that events trigger issues, and a mistake that couples commonly make is they never deal with issues when an event hasn't triggered them.
How many couples sit down and talk about what they're going to do with Billy about parenting when something bad didn't just happen with Billy? Or sit down and talk about how we're going to pay down the credit card bill when something bad just didn't happen about money?
So we talk about money, and we talk about parenting at the very worst times when an event has triggered that issue. One of the ways to interrupt that in addition to planning ahead and talking when we're not upset is to have ways to rein it in when we do get upset. But you've got to agree on it or else the strategy doesn't work, and you have to follow through. Time out doesn't work if there's not time in.
Bob: One of the other ground rules that you outline here made me think of a session that we do at the Weekend to Remember conference where we talk about the fundamentals of good communication and how important it is to learn how to express yourself in such a way that you are clear with the other person. And to learn how to listen better than most of us do.
These fundamental blocks of communication and being effective in how we present what we are trying to say and listening well to the other person are key if we are going to unlock some of these chains that we get locked up in, right?
Scott: Yes. It’s like a ground rule. When we are talking about something important that is either conflictual or vulnerable that we will talk safely. We’ll have a safe way to talk. We teach in our materials what we call the speaker/listener technique. This helps couples do that and gets them each listening and taking turns.
Whether it’s our technique or somebody else’s technique the key is you have to have a safe way to talk about the things that don’t feel safe to talk about. More importantly once you have that way you have to engage it when you need it because that’s the time when you need it most.
Dennis: And you have to talk about the problem without attacking the person.
Scott: Absolutely.
Dennis: When you make the person the spendthrift the problem rather than the lack of a budget or sticking to a budget then people feel attacked. They bunker up and instead of communicating with each other we lob grenades between our foxholes at one another.
Bob: And the Bible has a lot say about how we communicate with one another. Things like let everyone be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow to anger. That’s biblical admonition on how we should be quick to hear the other person.
Scott: That’s right.
Bob: Slow to speak. Slow to anger. Proverbs talks about how it’s a fool to speak before you’ve heard the other person to jump in and not listen. So the Bible is very practical as it coaches us on the very thing that you’re talking about here which is reflecting what the other person has to say is important. The other person is important and the only way we will resolve these issues is if we value one another.
Scott: That’s right. Respect is so critical. Respect starts with listening even when we disagree.
Dennis: Have we come close to touching on this third golden ground rule here that will completely separate the problem from the discussion?
Scott: Yes, let’s talk about this. You know, we can talk about – and we're not going to here – but we could talk about elaborate problem-solving models and things like that, but the most crucial thing for people to keep in mind is to talk about what's going on before you try to solve it.
This goes back to the whole theme that undergirds what we've been talking about in these shows is that money is attached to so many deeper themes and so many meanings – if we're not talking out clearly what's going on first, we're not going to solve the right problem, and we may – less likely, frankly – but we may even come to some agreement. But the agreement won't last, and it won't solve the problem because we didn't talk long enough.
I think a lot of times in our marriages that our immature attempt to get beyond the conflict. We don’t like conflict with our mate so let’s get over it really quickly and not really go there or deal with the depth of what’s going on. Then we can get back to being nice to one another but then we’re going to blow up again.
Bob: This takes a couple of fairly mature human beings to be able to say, "Okay, let's see if we can specifically name this problem. What is the problem?" And then you name it, and then you stop, and you say, "Okay, now, let's ask this question – is that really the issue? If we can fix that thing, is everything happy, or do we still have a deeper issue?"
Because the presenting issue may be the bass boat that Dennis just brought home without talking to Barbara about, right? That can be the presenting issue. And so Dennis says, "All right, fine, I'll take it back if that will make you happy?"
Scott: Oh, she would want a bigger one.
(laughter)
Dennis: Yes, right.
Bob: You know, and he's saying, "Okay, I'll solve this for you. I'll take it back, and then you'll be happy, right?" Well, no, she won't be happy because he won't be happy because there's really a bigger issue here about values and priorities.
Scott: Yes, let me give you an example. A couple that we worked with where they were married just six months, lots of potential, lots of strengths, committed couple, nice couple. But six months into marriage, she was just feeling terrible about how much time he was spending watching football on TV.
The way she initially expressed the concern, it really came across as "You're hogging the TV. I don't even know what comes on anymore. I can't get at the TV because" – they have one TV, and "You're always on it watching TV." He was defensive about watching football and how important football is to him.
Now, if they ran out and bought a second TV …
Bob: That will fix it, right?
Scott: Yes, exactly. And, of course, it won't, because her issue isn't him hogging the TV, her issue is how come six months into marriage you would rather be watching football all the time than talking with me or spending some time with me?
That's the real issue, and that's the one you don't hear. You see it – you see evidence of it all over the couple, and she certainly felt it, but if he's really listening to her, and it's safe for her to say it, she can get to a different level and say, "I'm feeling like you do not want to be with me."
Dennis: Well, as I'm listening to these ground rules, I want to park all these on our website, FamilyLifeToday.com – put all six of them on there. The last one is a good one. Barbara would say she knows why I would pick this – "We will take time for the great things – fun" – Barbara would say, "Yeah, that's right, fun – friendship – and what's the last one? My glasses aren't focusing on it.
Scott: Sensuality?
Dennis: That's in a book about money?
Scott: I'm afraid so.
Dennis: What are you speaking of there?
Scott: Sex.
Dennis: You're a researcher.
Scott: Have you ever heard of it?
Dennis: I – definitely.
Scott: There's this "two becomes one" idea early in Scripture, and …
Dennis: … this is in a book about money.
Scott: Well, you know, it turns out that money can't buy me love, and what really draws couples together are …
Dennis: You're saying that this area relates to the financial area of a couple?
Scott: Yes, because this is fundamental to doing well in life. You know, money matters, and a lot of matters have to do with money, but what really matters more is the friendship in the marriage, the doing fun things, the central connection, the spiritual connection – those are the great things.
I give this illustration now in lots of workshops. I put up a picture of our puppy the day we brought him home. We have this little white Bichon, and it's adorable. Imagine just an adorable picture of a little puppy.
I make the point to couples – I say this – "Look, when you are thinking of getting a puppy, and you see this face in the store, notice this – you fall in love with the front end of the puppy. But every puppy has a back end, and every marriage has a back end, and one of the problems with marriage, over time, is we're so busy dealing with money and bills and kids and house repairs and all this kind of stuff, that we stop making time for the front end of the puppy.
Now, the back end of the puppy is really important. If we don't handle it well, if we don't structure that some, and determine where – see, the back end is the where and the when and handling it carefully. But we have to make room for the front end or else we forget why we wanted to bring that puppy home.
Bob: You know, you can look at a marriage, and if a couple says, "It's been a while since we've laughed together," "It's been a while since we've just gotten away and done something fun," "We haven't had a season like – we haven't had a night like – we haven't had an hour like that in a while"…
Dennis: … and it can be money, Bob, that sends couples off into kind of a drought-like experience.
Bob: It is amazing, though, how when a couple is able to get away and spend some uninterrupted time just the two of them together focused on their relation. That breathes a refreshing breath of new air into a marriage relationship. We’ve heard that from tens of thousands of couples who have attended our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember marriage conferences.
I was just thinking about the fact that six months ago we were encouraging FamilyLife Today listeners to consider becoming legacy partners. A legacy partner is somebody who helps support the ministry of FamilyLife Today on a monthly basis.
We told folks if you’d agree to sign up to become a legacy partner and if you make your donation via credit card each month we’ll send you a certificate to attend a Weekend to Remember marriage conference as our guest. We’ll pay the registration fee for you.
We had more than a thousand people sign up as legacy partners and we now have heard back from a lot of folks who not only continue to support the ministry but also attended one of these conferences in the spring. Again they tell us that just that time away was refreshing for them as a couple and helped them get refocused on the priorities of a marriage relationship.
I mention that because this month we are once again asking folks to consider becoming a legacy partner. Once again if you will agree to support the ministry and make a donation each month via recurring credit card draft we will send you a certificate for a Weekend to Remember marriage conference. You can attend any of the conferences you’d like in any of the cities where we are hosting them this fall.
All the details can be found online at FamilyLifeToday.com. Go to our web site and the information you need is available there. Again it’s FamilyLife Today.com. When you sign up as a new legacy partner there’s a welcome kit we send you that has a lot of helpful resources in it. Again if you sign up via recurring credit card draft we’ll also send you a certificate for a Weekend to Remember marriage conference. We hope you’ll consider doing that. We want to say thanks in advance for your support of this ministry and your financial partnership with us.
Le t me also encourage you when you are online at FamilyLife Today.com get more information from a helpful book by our friend Howard Dayton. He’s just finished a book called Money and Marriage God’s Way and it’s the kind of resource that can assist couples who are struggling in the area we’ve talked about this week with practical, biblical wisdom on financial issues and how those impact a marriage relationship.
Find more online at FamilyLife Today.com and you can order from us online as well or call 1-800-FL-TODAY. 1-800-358-6329 and someone on our team can let you know how you can get Howard’s book sent to you.
Well, I hope you have a great weekend this weekend. I hope you and your family are able to worship together. And I hope you can join us back on Monday when we’re going to hear the advice that older teens give to younger teens about what they’d do differently as they head into the teenage years. It’s fascinating to hear what these teenagers have to say. I hope you can be with us for that.
Thanks today to our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. Have a great weekend. We’ll see you Monday for another edition of FamilyLife Today.
FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.
© 2009 FamilyLife
