Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, October 21st. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. How does a woman submit when there is a little voice that keeps saying, "This feels risky?" We'll talk about that today. Stay tuned.
And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. I wish we could see our audience on today's program, because I'd just love to ask the question – how many of the women, the wives who are listening, struggle with the idea or the practice of submission, and how many of them would say, "That's not a struggle for me. I understand it's the Scriptures, I know it's what I'm supposed to do. I may struggle from time to time doing it, but I embrace the concept and seek to apply it." What would you guess?
Dennis: I've got a great idea. Let's ask …
Bob: Do you want to do a straw poll?
Dennis: Well, Cindy Easley joins us on today's broadcast. Cindy, welcome back.
Cindy: Thank you, it's so good to be here.
Dennis: You do speak face-to-face, as Bob is talking about, with audiences at our FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences. You see their faces, you talk to them afterwards – what do you think? What percentage struggle from time to time in submitting to their husband?
Cindy: Ninety-nine point nine. I would say that point nine that doesn't is either lying, or they haven't been married long enough to actually have any issues on that.
Dennis: They're on the honeymoon.
Cindy: That's right.
Bob: How many of them do you think struggle with the concept of submission versus the practice of submission? I mean, if you – if you're talking to a group of Christian women, are half of them going, "I don't know if I buy this concept," do you think?
Cindy: I would say 60 percent don't buy the concept.
Bob: Really?
Cindy: That would be my guess. I would say 40 percent do, but when you say you buy the concept, there's days I don't buy the concept.
Bob: Well, I know what you're saying …
Cindy: I mean, I know that …
Bob: Intellectually, you buy it.
Cindy: Intellectually, yeah. So, yeah, I think that because our culture thinks that submission equals oppression and that only an idiot would submit to a husband, and that our churches have acquiesced to the culture, but even our churches are not teaching an accurate description of what the head/helper relationships look like, so that submission is not taught accurately.
Bob: Ergo, the need for a book like "What's Submission Got to do With It," right?
Cindy: Ergo.
Bob: Ergo – I think that's the first time I've used "ergo" on FamilyLife Today.
Dennis: I was wondering where that came from. I was going, "Well, some of our listeners kind of wonder where that came from" as well. The name of the book is "What's Submission Got to do With It?" and it really comes out of Cindy's speaking at our conferences for more than a dozen years to literally thousands of women around the country. You got all these questions from women who would come up after you've spoken. I want to read you an e-mail from a woman who is married to a man who is hostile to her faith.
She has been a Christian about nine years. They've been married for 27 years, and she's lost weight to improve their sex life, she says, but he's still opposed to my faith, hates my politics, he's condescending, disrespectful to me at times. She said, "How does a Christian woman witness to her unbelieving husband about both God's mercy and standards and upholds her own dignity in the face of such hostility?" Now, that's a great question.
Cindy: That is a great question, and I did not have the answer, and so I went to a woman who would. I interviewed a woman named Susan, who has been married to a nonbeliever for 50 years, and her situation was she was a Christian, though nominal, when she married. Several years into the marriage went to a community Bible study, where she really started studying the Word and realized what she was missing and, of course, wanted her husband to follow her in her faith and in her growth.
She talked about how many mistakes she made in trying to win her husband to Christ and that she finally realized her place was to love him and respect him and honor him. In fact, she made the statement to me, she said it finally dawned on her that he was the exact man she married; that she was the one that changed, and it was unfair of her to put expectations on him that he could not meet because he was not a believer.
And she did everything wrong. She would study her Bible in front of him, she would pray in front of him, she would talk to him about God and about spiritual things and all it did was destroy their relationship. It never once made him want to go to church.
Now, he would allow her to go to church, he would allow her to take the children to church, but she would walk out the door and kind of give him a look of condescension or make him – try to make him feel shamed that he did not go with her. And she realized that all of those things were just turning him off to the faith; that she was doing more damage than help. And as she learned to love him and treat him respectfully, she actually one day said, "Do you mind if I go to church? Do you mind if I am in Bible study?"
And he said, "You know, I don't mind if you're in Bible study, I don't mind if you go to church, but I would like you not to be a leader in Bible study," because it took so much time for her to study, it took time away from their relationship. And so she willingly, lovingly gave up that leadership position, though she loved it, and that spoke volumes to her husband. She quit quoting Scripture.
Now, she might bring in godly principles, but she wouldn't necessarily tell him they were from God. Again, she didn't realize that she would not be the one to lead him to faith except winning him without a word – with love and respect and honoring him for the man he was not the man she wanted him to be.
Dennis: You speak at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, Cindy, and as women have stood in line after you speak, what percentage of the audience would you say are married to a husband who doesn't share his wife's faith?
Cindy: Oh, in the conferences themselves, I would say maybe 30 percent.
Dennis: Yeah, and I thought you'd use a pretty high percentage, and what I wanted to do was emphasize that because I think what some of those women have done is they've encouraged their husband to get to the conference, to experience it with them. So instead of them preaching at their husband, there is somebody else, another man, sharing his faith with their husband.
And for a lot of men who come to the Weekend to Remember, when the wife does do what you've just described, love her husband, have a good attitude about it, and kind of get out of the way, God then is free to work. And it's why, Bob, we've seen this year over 2,500 people come to faith in Jesus Christ. They've placed their faith in Him as Lord and Savior, and these are people who maybe are in church, maybe not in church, some of whom, undoubtedly, came to the conference with their wives because their wives promised them a great weekend.
Bob: We've got information on our website at FamilyLife.com about our upcoming season of FamilyLife Weekend to Remember conferences, and we do encourage folks to attend, to bring friends. This is a place where you can bring a friend. I guess, as long as the person is not just openly hostile toward anything to do with God?
Dennis: Well, if they're willing to go …
Bob: Right.
Dennis: … I'll take them even if they're hostile, because I would rather them sit and listen to a good, clear, intellectual presentation from the Bible that outlines the blueprints for how you build a home. It's a compelling case. It's an apologetic for the faith.
Bob: And it's done in such a way that they don't feel like they're just getting preached at all weekend.
Dennis: Exactly.
Bob: They're hearing from men and women who are sharing out of their own life, their own failures, their own challenges, their own struggles, and sharing what the Scriptures have to say and how the Scriptures have changed their marriage and their lives.
Dennis: It's a safe place for a husband and a wife to be able to spend the weekend, and where the husband is going to hear, again, as I said at the beginning, without the wife being the one saying it to him.
Bob: Cindy, let me ask you – back to this issue of wives struggling with the concept of submission. You said there are days you struggle with it. You believe it, you affirm it, you've written a book on it, so why, on any particular day, might you kick against that goad?
Cindy: Pride, pride. You know, I want my way, I think my way is better and, you know, submission only comes into play when Michael and I disagree. If we agree on things, there's no reason to submit, I agree.
But it's when we both see a concept or a child – oh, my goodness, that's probably where the majority of our issues come in, is we view our children different, and his parenting style is different from my parenting style. And so when those butt into each other, and I have to give up my will, my way of doing it, sometimes that pride waves its ugly little head, and I have a hard time reminding myself that I am served best when I lovingly follow Michael and allow him to lead.
Because you know what I've learned? If he makes the mistake, God is going to use that mistake in his life to teach him nobody makes the right choice every time. We can't, we learn from our mistakes. So I've learned to just kind of relax and go, "Okay. It's okay if it's not done the way I want. God is still in control."
Dennis: You just mentioned that one of the areas you and Michael perhaps most disagree on is the area of child training, childrearing. Could you take us into a little discussion you've had about one of your children? You've got four, so there can be some anonymity here, and kind of share with us how you arrived at a decision in the midst of your disagreement?
Cindy: Sure, I'd be happy to. I would say that our largest disagreements come in with the daughters. We have three daughters and one son, and it's because I'm a girl, and I think like a girl, and he's a boy, and he's never thought like a girl. And so when Michael and I have discussions on how to best raise our children or a consequence for a specific action or a lack of action that they did, I'll always say, "This is how it should be." And often I side with the daughters because I'm a girl, I think like they think.
But I have had to learn to step out of the way because, often, God will give Michael insights He does not give me, and I am wrong. And if we do it my way, if he follows me, and I insist we're going to parent this child the way I think, it's – nine times out of 10 of disaster. We do it my way, and then we turn around and do it his way, anyway, because he was right all along. Now, not always, but I would say that that's one of our biggest areas of conflict.
Dennis: So you'll go back and forth talking about your different perspectives on the issue …
Cindy: Absolutely.
Dennis: He listens to you, hopefully.
Cindy: No, he listens, I listen, I say "My way is best," he says, "I understand you think that way, but I really believe we should do it this way." Almost – and I believe this is true of most every husband. Most husbands will not demand that their wives do it their way. In fact, if I continue to press and press and press against what Michael wants, he will finally go, "Fine, do it your way." And you know what? I may have won that battle, but I have just lost the war, because I have shown my husband disrespect, I have shown my children that they have a higher priority than my husband – shame on me.
That is one of the worst things I can for my children is ever place them above my husband. So it's always to my best to back down and go, "You know what? I disagree, but we will do it your way."
Bob: Cindy, I'm about to say something that I'm going to duck after I say it, okay?
[Cindy laughs]
But I do think there is some biblical support for this concept. I think there is something inside the heart of women; there is a fundamental fear that if they're not in control of their environment, of their circumstances, of what's going on in their lives, they freeze up. And I think a lot of the struggle with submission relates to this fear of being out of control and having to trust anyone else with anything else.
Cindy: It's right in the Bible, it's in Genesis 2 and Genesis 3.
Dennis: Duck, Bob.
Bob: I'm ducking.
Cindy: You know, that happened in the Garden. Here is Eve wanting to control what she is eating, not willing to turn to her husband, Adam, who was probably within earshot if not right beside her when she's having this discussion with the serpent.
Bob: And he should have spoken up, by the way.
Cindy: He should have interjected himself and taken leadership and when he didn't, rather than turning to him and saying, "Adam, what did God say?" She tried to handle it herself, and so what's the consequence? The consequence is that her desire will be for her husband in Genesis 3, and it doesn't mean she's going to sexually desire him. I mean, what kind of a curse is that, you know? Men would love that.
It's that she would desire to control him and yet he would rule over her. Now, that's not a punishment. God is trying to realign the roles that He placed in the Garden in perfection – the head and helper roles. But now those head and helper roles were going to have tension because of sin.
And so I agree with that totally. I do think there is something – and I don't think it's just in women, I think it's in all of us. We all want to be masters of our own fate. We all want to be in control because we're afraid to give that control up to someone else. Will our rights be damaged? Will we be stepped upon? Will we be abused? All of those things, because we've seen it, it's happened to us, we've heard about it.
So I think it's a fear, if it's there, that can be worked out within the understanding of submission and loving leadership.
Dennis: Well, I'm glad Bob asked the question and then ducked, because I do think that's a hard one for women to hear. But I want to take this down to even a more grassroots level with you, Cindy. You have three daughters.
Cindy: I do.
Dennis: And one son.
Cindy: Yup.
Dennis: I want to know what you're teaching your daughters about submission. What is the essence of what you want to impart to them about this subject? And I want to know what are you teaching to your son, Devon? What do you want him to know when someday, if God gives him the privilege of being married, he becomes a husband?
Cindy: Well, let me answer the ones for the girls first. The most important thing is I try to model submission to my daughters. It doesn't matter what I say – if I don't do it, it's not going to be helpful, or it's not going to ever penetrate their hearts or their brains.
But we do talk a lot about Dad and how Dad is the leader of our home and how important he is. And I try to always show respect to him and, again, as I've said, not if we're going to necessarily have a discussion amongst ourselves, but if we're going to discuss the children, we do that in private. And even when we do, if Michael and I have a disagreement, I want my children to see our reconciliation of that disagreement, how we resolve it, so that they see both sides of it.
But it's how I talk about their father to the girls that's so important; that they see that I respect him, and that I consider him to be my head. That's really important to them, and they've all said, "We want to marry a guy like Dad." To me, I've done my job if they think I want to marry a guy like Dad.
Now, to Devon, the girls and I tease that we're training a good husband in Devon, because we'll often tell him, "Now, when you have a wife, you need to understand this about girls or about women."
Dennis: He's in a – he's in a …
Bob: Poor guy.
Cindy: Yeah, he is.
Dennis: He's a minority in a sorority, huh?
Cindy: He is, he is, the poor guy, and if he didn't have his dad, I think he's just …
Dennis: How old is he? How old is Devon?
Cindy: He's 14.
Dennis: Fourteen, oh, you know this goes down real easy, too, for Devon as well.
Cindy: Well, he is precious. He is very sensitive to the girls in our family, at least the older girls – not so much his little sister. But he is very in tune with our emotions, which is a very interesting thing. But we will tell him, you know, "This is how you respect a woman. You open the door for her. This is how you lead her lovingly," and we try to model that for him as well, and I hope that he marries a woman who loves him and wants him to succeed as the man God intended him to be and doesn't beat him down and try to push him away or try to hold him down in some way so that she can feel better about herself.
Dennis: Well, I'm smiling about Devon getting all those – well, it's almost a daily classroom.
Bob: A lot of advice he's having to put up with?
Cindy: Word of wisdom, I assure you.
Dennis: He's going to be a well-trained husband, just like you've said. And I think if we want our husbands to be trained, and if wives are to be trained appropriately, there is no better way to get trained than to come to the Weekend to Remember and hear speakers like Cindy who shoot straight about the struggles and the issues that she is facing with Michael and how she applies the Scripture in her marriage and grow, with respect to your own job description, in your own marriage and family.
And then, overall, Bob, I just want to take a step back to those who still struggle with this concept of submitting to the big boss like you talked about, submitting to God. It is God who designed marriage not man. And the way He designed it is He designed it, I believe, clearly, in Scripture, for the husband to be the sacrificial servant leader and lover of his wife – and for a wife to honor him, respect him, and, yes, to submit to him. Neither the husband nor the wife can perform their roles while being selfish.
Cindy: Boy, that's true.
Dennis: If you want to be selfish then buy a dog, buy a cat but don't get married because if you want to be selfish, selfishness is a bad thing to be in the midst of trying to establish a godly marriage.
Bob: Mm-hm. I've had occasion to talk about men's and women's roles to a mixed audience and before I do, I say, "Now, before we ever get to Ephesians 5, we've got to go to Philippians 2 – "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit. With humility, let each person regard the other as more important than himself." And then I say, "Now, whatever Ephesians 5 means, it's got to go through Philippians 2. If you're going to lead, you've got to do it regarding your wife as more important than yourself. If you are going to respect your husband, you've got to do it by regarding him as more important than yourself. That's the fundamental underpinning that's got to be in place for any of this to work out well.
Dennis: And that doesn't mean necessarily that if a husband wants to treat his wife as more important than himself that he's going to give her what she wants. What she wants may not be the best thing in the decision you're trying to make with your children, for your marriage, or for your future. It's all about listening to what God has for a couple and for a man to assume his responsibility and be the loving servant-leader of his wife and family.
Bob: Well, as you said, this is a subject that we tackle at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences, and I think a lot of couples find clarity and help and get the appropriate adjustment to maybe some confusion on this subject when they are able to attend one of our weekend getaways for couples. These two-and-a-half-day conferences are held in nice hotels all around the country as a way for couples to have a weekend where they can just get alone together, spend some time alone, think through what the Bible has to say about building a stronger marriage, have some fun, laugh a lot, and recalibrate their marriage relationship in the process.
And the conference, by the way, comes with an unconditional money-back guarantee. If, for any reason, somebody attends the conference, and it does not live up to their expectations, they can request a refund of the registration fee, and we're happy to provide it, no questions asked. So there is really no risk, and there is great reward in getting away for one of these weekends.
You can get more information about when the conference is coming to a city near where you live by going to our website, which is FamilyLife.com, click on the right side of the home page where it says "Today's Broadcast," and that will take you to an area of the site where there is a link to our conference information.
There is also information about Cindy Easley's book, which is called "What's Submission Got to do With It?" and other resources on this subject are available as well. Again, our website is FamilyLife.com. Click on the right side of the home page, where you see "Today's Broadcast," and plan to attend a Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference and get a copy of Cindy's book. If it's easier to take care of all of this by phone just call 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and someone on our team will answer any questions you have about the conference or make arrangements to get the resources you need sent to you.
You know, we try to tackle subjects on our program that are biblical, that are helpful, that will challenge your thinking, that will help you strengthen your marriage relationship, and we're always encouraged when we hear from listeners who say, "This particular program was one that God used in my life," or "You made me think about some things I haven't thought of before," or "You really are strengthening our marriage and our family." And we get a lot of e-mails like that. We are so grateful for the feedback that you provide.
Let me also say thank you to those of you who help support this ministry financially. We are listener-supported, and it's your donations that keep FamilyLife Today on this station and on other stations all around the country. I want to encourage you to consider making a contribution to FamilyLife Today. You can do that online or by phone and this month when you make a donation of any amount, we'd love to send you as a thank you gift the audiobook of Barbara Rainey's, "Thanksgiving, a Time to Remember." This is a narrated version of the Thanksgiving story that any family can listen to as they are driving to celebrate Thanksgiving with the extended family or listen to on that day as you're sitting around the table enjoying Thanksgiving dinner.
The audiobook is our gift to you when you make a donation of any amount this month to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today, and you can make that donation online at FamilyLife.com. If you'd like the audiobook when you make your donation, include the word "remember" in the keycode box, all right? Or call us at 1-800-FLTODAY, make a donation over the phone and just mention that you'd like the Thanksgiving audiobook. Again, it's our way of saying thank you to you for your support of this ministry, and we always appreciate hearing from you.
Now, tomorrow we're going to take a very practical look at how submission plays out in a marriage relationship, what it means and what it doesn't mean, and you'll hear about a new idea for a conference Dennis has. That comes up tomorrow. I hope you can join us for that.
I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.
FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.
