Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, October 22nd. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. In every marriage, a husband is to love and lead, a wife is to submit and respect. We'll talk about what that might look like and what it might not look like in your marriage today. Stay tuned.
And welcome to FamilyLife Today, thanks for joining us. We've got the promotional thing all ready for that new conference you want to do? Do you know what I'm talking about?
Dennis: You mean the …
Bob: The conference on submission that you said you wanted to do – the big submission thing?
Dennis: You're not really going to play that for our audience.
Bob: Well, the team's been working on it.
Dennis: Our audience likes to laugh. I think this may be one of the most innovative and funny advertisements that we've never let out over the air, and, Bob, I think our listeners can handle it.
Bob: You think so?
Dennis: If they take this personally and think that we really mean any of this, I just want you to know this is a clear disclaimer, this is 100 percent a spoof.
Bob: This is a joke.
Dennis: Cindy Easley is joining us on the broadcast. Is that correct, Cindy, that it's a spoof?
Cindy: Yes.
[laughter]
It is.
Bob: Can I just say to all my station manager friends who are about to hear this and go, "What is on our radio station," it's a joke, and it doesn't last all that long.
Dennis: This is not April Fool's, but …
Cindy: It should be.
Dennis: It would be best on that day.
Bob: Here is the idea that the team came up with for this big conference.
Announcer: (From videotape.) From the folks who brought you "I Still Do," it's "Yes, You Will."
[musical transition]
Yes, You Will, a nationwide conference on submission featuring music by The Beastie Boys and Molly Hatchett.
[musical transition]
Ladies, the kitchen opens at 6 a.m. sharp.
[musical transition]
Lunch will be served.
[Musical transition]
Bring your own aprons and enjoy the game with your husband.
[musical transition]
Men! Enjoy our Super Bowl highlights extravaganza on the world's largest big screen! Can you imagine 10,000 men chanting, [inaudible].
Ladies, you will at Yes, You Will, the nationwide conference on submission.
[musical transition]
Sponsored by Barcalounger and DirectTV.
Dennis: What do you think, Cindy? Do you think that conference will fly?
Cindy: I think it's every man's fantasy.
Dennis: You know, as men, we wouldn't be very good if we were allowed to live that way.
Bob: No, we wouldn't.
Dennis: We wouldn't be good at all.
Bob: It would be pretty barbaric.
Dennis: In fact, I think that's why God set up the whole thing of marriage the way He did, which is He called men to die to self and love and serve and lead and sacrifice on behalf of their wives, and He called the wives to respect their imperfect husbands and to ultimately submit to them, and I just appreciate you, Cindy, writing this book, "What's Submission Got to do With It?" because I do think the subject needs to be addressed head-on, as you've done in your book.
And the thing that I found was most interesting about it, you got a lot of these questions from real people who came up to you at our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences where you were speaking, right?
Cindy: That's exactly right. They would give me a situation, what their marriage was. Perhaps they were married to a nonbeliever. I had Austin, I had women who made more money than their husbands, and that was a real conflict, and they couldn't figure out the head/helper role when she was the primary breadwinner. I would have women who were in powerful positions in their workplace, and they were trying to figure out – they liked the idea of letting their husbands leave the home, but they couldn't figure out quite how to lay down the leadership position that they had when they walked in the door.
So those kinds of questions that I could not ask on my own, I went to women who were in those opinion and said, "What does submission look like in your home? How have you dealt with this? Tell me your process, and that is what the book is about.
Bob: One of those situations is the difficult scenario where a wife is married to a guy who is traveling a lot, either in the military, and he's deployed, or his job takes him out. So the wife becomes kind of the head of the house while he's gone, but then when he shows back up, she's, all of a sudden, supposed to flip a switch and adjust to a new scenario.
In fact, you've had occasion – I know Michael, for example, has traveled to Israel, he's been gone for a couple of weeks a time. In those scenarios, the house hold has got to run, and somebody's got to make some decisions, and you step in and do it, right?
Cindy: Oh, absolutely, and being submissive doesn't mean you're not making decisions. It means you're making decisions under the authority of your husband, and you're making decisions respectfully. In the book, one of the chapters is call "Reentry," and it's about military families.
When Michael was pastoring Immanuel Bible Church in Springfield, Virginia, we were filled with military families, and as I watched these women try to balance this act, and it is very hard. Some of them, their husbands could travel as much as 200 days a year. I went to a couple of women that I highly respected, and I ask them, "How did you do this? What brought you to the point that you are?" And one woman specifically addressed the children. When her husband would travel for two or three weeks, and he's a high-ranking military officer, and he would come back in the home, she said sometimes he would immediately try to take over the leadership again, as he should, and she said it was up to her how successful he was in resuming that mantle; that she could make him crash and burn or she could lift him up and support his leadership in front of the children.
Now, she said there would be times that while he was gone in those two or three or perhaps four weeks, things could happen. You know, a family isn't stagnant, it's dynamic, and so he may come in and not have adequate information to lead. And so out of the presence of the children, she might have to bring him up to date and explain, "Okay, let me explain some things that happened that will give you a better" …
Bob: A little context.
Cindy: Right, a little context and a better ability to deal with our son or to enter into this issue with our daughter. So that was really helpful. Another one talked about how when her children were little, and her husband would travel a long period of time, perhaps six months at a time. He was a naval aviator and would be flying jets off of a landing strip in the middle of the water, and he'd be gone, as I said, for as much as six months at a time, and she would do things like make sure Dad was involved with the kids even though he wasn't there.
Like she might make a videotape of something the kid is doing and then have the kids talk to Daddy on the video and mail it off to him. She always brought Dad into it. Also, they both discovered that it was better to talk about possible issues that might arise so that when Dad was gone, both women could say with full conviction, "Dad and I think," so that Dad was still the leader and the authority in the home even though he wasn't physically present at the time.
Dennis: I really like that, because that's a wise woman who is setting her husband up to win, and I also like what you said about the way the husband comes back after he's been gone, whether it's a weeklong business trip or whether he's been deployed for a number of months, it's a wise man who doesn't jump back in an immediately take over and start making decisions without the word Bob mentioned – "context."
Bob: Well, and I think getting clued in by your wife and knowing what the context is enables you to lead well, to lead effectively, not to stumble, not to have to go back to a child later and say, "Will you forgive me because I didn't know the whole story, and I should not have said this or told you to do that," and so it's just a part of wisdom for a husband to say, "Okay, I'm here, I'm ready to reengage, bring me up to speed."
Dennis: I want to turn the corner a bit here, Cindy, and ask you a couple of tough questions. Now, it's not that these have not been difficult already, but I know there are a number of wives who are listening to our broadcast who are saying, "How do I submit to a husband who won't lead? What do I do when he won't step out and make a decision? He won't spiritually steer the ship."
Bob: Forget spiritually, what do I do if the bills are stacking up, my husband is ignoring them, we've got bill collectors calling?
Cindy: Well, first of all, when a woman says her husband won't lead, the first thing I want to do is say, "Okay, look at yourself and see if there is anything that you're doing that is causing him to not lead."
You know, perhaps he wanted to lead, and when he tried to make decisions early in the marriage, she disagreed and took over, and I don't know a man on earth that, after a while, isn't going to go, "Fine, you lead." They are not going to fight for the mantle of leadership. So look at yourself first.
And then, second, I think it's how we approach our husband. We say, "Honey, the bills need to be paid. Would you like me to pay them?" You know, one of the things that we think our roles of head and helper come with tasks assigned to them. Men do the lawn, pay the bills, women cook, clean the house, and in our marriage that's not true. We've found that in the head/helper relationship, there is room for us still to do what we're good at and to not do what we're not good at.
I happen to pay the bills and handle all of our money. I'm better at that than Michael is. In the beginning of our marriage, he did that. He did that because that's what his father did and my father did, and we thought that was the way it was supposed to be done. But when he would get upset or frantic or, "Oh, we're out of money," I was, like, "Let me do this," because I'm, like, "Oh, so we're out of money." You know, it just didn't bother me, and I tend to have an interest in that area.
On the other hand, my husband actually is a better cook than I am. Now, he rarely cooks as much as I do because he's not home in time, but when he is, on weekends, my children are so happy when Dad cooks dinner, because it's fun and interesting, and he's just a great cook. So our roles aren't gender-based when it comes to our tasks. Our roles of head and helper are. They are two different things.
Dennis: I want to go back to the question that I asked you, because I asked you what does a wife do whose husband won't lead? One of the things that I've found – some men don't know how to lead, and you mentioned it. If a woman takes over, he will let her.
And so a woman needs to take a step back and say, "Have I usurped his leadership?"
Cindy: Exactly.
Dennis: There may be another reason why the husband isn't leading, and that's because of maybe baggage, looking backwards in his life, I don't know, maybe he comes from a broken home, maybe he had an abusive father, maybe he had a passive father who didn't give him a picture of what that looks like, and for every wife, she may be facing, really, a time where she has to decide – is she willing to experience a brief period of pain to have her husband confronted with his lack of leadership and have him face that head on so that, at the end, he does become the leader?
Cindy: Yeah, I think that's right. Now, again, when it comes to something like survival or like paying bills, that might be something you step in and not take over and but say, "May I do this?" Again, you're still lining yourself up under his leadership. But I think there's other things – you're right. You just back off. That is how a husband learns, that's how we all learn is through our failures. Isn't it sad we don't learn through our success?
Bob: Mm-hm. We've talked to wives, I'm sure you've talked to wives as well, who have described situations for us where a husband is controlling, he's manipulative, he's authoritarian, he is not kind and compassionate, but he is saying, "Here is your allowance for the week, and I'd like receipts," and he's telling her what she can and can't buy; he's telling her she can't leave the house on certain days; and she has heard about this idea of biblical submission, and she thinks, "Is this what I am supposed to do as a Christian woman?"
You would tell that woman it's time to get somebody else involved and intervene because her husband is not living as God would have him live, right?
Cindy: I would. Somewhere along the way he has either been taught, or he has chosen to believe that this relationship is healthy, and it's not. So, yes, I would say that she brings a pastor, she brings a good friend – a friend of his not a friend of hers – someone who can support him, her father, perhaps, if he is a godly man who can do this lovingly; his father, if his father was not the role model. Just someone that can help him understand what this really is supposed to look like.
The best thing a man can do is see his purpose in the family is bringing the best out of the people in his household – his wife, his children. His goal should be to help them become all God intended them to be. That's loving leadership. Just as a wife's goal is to empower her husband to lead and, in doing so, helping him to become all God intended him to be.
Bob: And, Dennis, I know we've heard of scenarios where a wife says, "If I bring somebody else in, if I try to confront this, first of all, they won't believe it about my husband, because he puts on a great façade, and then, secondly, he is going to get angry with me, and things are just going to get worse around here." Now we're talking about abuse, right?
Dennis: We are, and I think a woman needs to be wise about that, but, at the same time, if there is abuse that occurs, biblically, she is protected by the authorities that God has placed in control.
Bob: And I know what we're talking about here is the exception. It's not what's going on in most marriages, but it's happening enough that we really have to pull back and say something about it in the context of talking about submission because we have some listeners right now who are in those kinds of very difficult situations, and we don't want them to hear a message that says, "Just smile and say yes, dear," and continue to be abusive.
Dennis: Cindy, your husband, Michael, was a pastor for more than 20 years in a local church. Have you seen situations where this has occurred, and this has been effective in getting a man's attention?
Cindy: Absolutely. Again, you need to be in a church that understands biblical submission not in one that does see submission equal with oppression, which can be found, unfortunately, in some of our churches in America.
Bob: In those situations where abuse is not a factor, where it's a simple relational dynamic that husbands and wives are trying to work out, your experience has been, and you believe the Bible teaches that when a wife embraces this as God's design for her, there is joy there, right?
Cindy: There is joy. Every single one of the women that I talked to in this book talked about how, before they wrapped their arms around the concept of submission, there was tension in their home, and there was an unease in their hearts, but that as they began to submit appropriately, as God designed, they had internal peace and peace within their relationship and their home.
And so that's what I think we forget – that God designed it, and if God designed it, He did it for our good so we will feel good when it is done appropriately. Yes, there will be joy, there will be peace, and there will be a peace in the relationship.
Dennis: There is a rightness in submission that when it's done right, God blesses it and blesses the person and the marriage and the family in ways that you could never measure. In fact, Tonda Nations [sp], Bob, did a little interview with a woman who I think really sums up what we've been talking about here this week with Cindy Easley as this woman shares about how she's personally benefited from being a submissive wife.
Woman: [From videotape.] I've heard the whole submission thing since I got married and never really understood what it meant until God kind of turned up the fire and tested us a little bit this past year, and it's been really hard on us, but we had a child in April, it's our second one, and we decided that I should quit my job teaching and stay home and be a stay-at-home mom, which is something I've desired since I was a little girl. And a month after we had our child and I quit my job, my husband lost his job. And he has been unemployed for over a year now. So we've both been home without an income. We've been doing little things trying to make ends meet, and this is the first time that I've ever been able to trust my husband. I've always been a control freak, been that type A personality, and I saw in the book, it says that submission means giving up your desire to control, and God has totally been able to take that desire to control out of my heart, and I've become such a better wife and mom from it, and it's my place, it's where I belong, and I don't have the stress, and I can focus on loving my husband and encouraging him and loving my children, and it's peace. It's my God-given role, and I finally understood it now. It's knowing you're doing exactly what God intended for you, and I'm not trying to be this control freak and this nagger. I have a master's degree, but it's perfect right now for me to be home and be taking care of the home and the family and the kids and just loving and encouraging my husband and I just feel such at peace and so connected to God right now, even in life's hardships.
Bob: There really is, again, joy in doing what God calls us to do.
Cindy: I love the verse that says, "God's ways are not our ways; His thoughts are not our thoughts." Something like submission is contrary to the way we think in our human reasoning, and yet God has a purpose in it that is so far beyond us, and when we are willing to submit to God by giving up our rights and submitting to our husband. We do, we experience peace and joy that we will not find in another way.
Dennis: Cindy, I appreciate you, and I'm really excited about your book, "What's Submission Got to do With It?" because there seems to be, within the Christian community right now, a massive defection toward a roleless marriage where it's, like, let's just redefine marriage like the world has done, and let's turn this thing into two people who just love each other, where there's not going to be any head, and there won't be any submission as we're talking about it here.
And you take on the subject in a forthright manner and honestly and truthfully, and I just appreciate you giving women and wives courage to live out their responsibility in a Christian marriage. It's not an easy assignment to submit to a sinful man, and, my, how we need help, as men, to finish the process of growing up. And I just appreciate you, your friendship, you and Michael, and hope you'll come back and join us again soon.
Cindy: Well, thank you, I have enjoyed these few days.
Dennis: And I am also glad that they twisted your arm at Moody and said, "Cindy, you need to write this book." You've been speaking about this for a long time, I'm glad you wrote this book.
Cindy: Well, I am, too. I, personally, learned a lot as I wrote, and, you know, I thought I had a pretty good handle on submission until I started talking to some of these women, and I learned a lot myself.
Bob: Well, and I think our listeners are going to learn a lot, as well, as they get a copy of your book and, of course, we have it in our FamilyLife Resource Center, so if folks are interested in a copy, they can go to our website, FamilyLife.com. On the right side of the home page, there is a box that says, "Today's Broadcast," and if you click where it says "Learn More," that will take you to an area of the site where you can get more information on Cindy's book. You can order it online, if you'd like.
You can also get more information about the FamilyLife Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences that we host in cities all across the country where we try to work our way through a biblical understanding of not just this subject but things like resolving conflict and what the sexual dimension of marriage is supposed to look like, what is a husband's primary role in the home, what's a wife's primary role, what's God's plan and purpose for marriage in the first place? All of that gets unpacked at this two-day weekend getaway for couples that's hosted in nice hotels all around the country.
Again, there is more information about Cindy's book and about the Weekend to Remember Marriage Conference on our website, which is FamilyLife.com, click on the right side of the home page where it says "Today's Broadcast," for more information, or simply call 1-800-FLTODAY, 1-800-358-6329, 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and when you contact us, someone on our team will let you know how you can get a copy of the resources you need or how you can attend one of these upcoming Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences.
I want to say a word of thanks here, if I can, to those of you who not only listen to FamilyLife Today but who get in touch with us from time to time to let us know how God is using this program in your life. It's always helpful, if you are able to let us know the call letters or the frequency of the station where you hear FamilyLife Today. And we also very much appreciate when you are able to make a contribution to help support the ministry of FamilyLife Today.
We are listener-supported, so your donations are critical for keeping us on the air on this station and on other stations all across the country. This month, when you make a donation of any amount, we have a thank you gift we'd like to send you. It's the audiobook of Barbara Rainey's "Thanksgiving, a Time to Remember." It features a narrated and dramatized telling of the Thanksgiving story taken from Barbara's book, and it's great for families to listen to together maybe as you're heading off to visit with the extended family over the Thanksgiving holiday or just in the days leading up to Thanksgiving as you run about town doing your chores or on your way to school and back.
Again, we'd love to send you a copy of the audiobook, "Thanksgiving, a Time to Remember," as our way of saying thank you for your financial support of this ministry. You can make your donation online, and if you do, and you'd like to receive the audiobook, type the word "remember" into the keycode box on the donation form, or call 1-800-FLTODAY. You can make a donation over the phone and simply ask for a copy of the audiobook about Thanksgiving. We appreciate your generous support, and we always do look forward to hearing from you.
Now, tomorrow, Susie Larson is going to join us. We're going to talk about the things that make a woman and uncommon woman – biblical qualities that set her apart. I hope you can be with us for that conversation.
I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.
