Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Tuesday, June 23rd. Our host is the President of FamilyLife Dennis Rainey and I’m Bob Lepine. These are times when we need to counsel our own souls and remind ourselves of what’s true. We’ll do that today. Stay tuned.
Bob: Welcome to FamilyLife Today thanks for joining us. If you had a friend who called you one day and said I just found out I’ve lost my job and I’m not sure what the future is going to hold. You prayed for him and tried to encourage him and then three months later you run into him. And you say so how are things going with the job search? And he says nothing is showing up and it’s discouraging. To say at that point, the Lord will take care of you…
Dennis: Oh, yes.
Bob: Need to trust in the Lord. It’s almost like you think I better have something else to say at the three month point or the six month point because those words are just going to sound like they ring hollow at that point even though they are true, right?
Dennis: Depending on the level of friendship. If it’s a real close friend the first phone call should move me hopefully close to that friend and hopefully engage at a point of perhaps putting together a game plan.
Bob: Some tangible help.
Dennis: A way so that you don’t have three months separate you before you hear back on how he’s doing. We have a guest with us today who knows a little bit about one month, three months, six months because he lives what could arguably be the unemployment capital of America.
Bob: The epicenter of what’s going on economically.
Dennis: He lives in Detroit, Michigan. Dave Wilson joins us again on FamilyLife Today. Dave welcome back.
Dave Wilson: Thanks for having me. It’s good to be out of Detroit.
(laughter)
Dennis: Dave is a pastor of Kensington Community Church. He and his wife Ann have been speaking at our Weekend to Remember conferences for more than 20 years and they have three sons.
Dave we were talking about this before the broadcast started you’ve been the chaplain for the Detroit Lions for how many years?
Dave Wilson: Twenty four seasons.
Dennis: Twenty four seasons. Have you ever seen a season like the one you just had?
Dave Wilson: No. We’ve had some bad seasons. People who follow the NFL know that the Lions have struggled but this last year going 0-16. It’s arguably the worst record in sports history ever has a team lost every single game. It was horrific.
Bob: Now it’s got to almost be a metaphor for what’s going on in the whole city of Detroit.
Dave Wilson: Right.
Bob: Because I can imagine when you’re facing game 14 or 15 or 16 and people are starting to talk are the Lions going to be the first team in NFL history to blow the whole season and you get out there in the middle of game 16 and you go we can’t do anything right.
Dave Wilson: Oh, it’s unbelievable. Game 16 is at Green Bay. I was there at Lambeau Field on the sidelines freezing and we’d been fighting it the whole year. Every week we thought we were going to win a game and you get to week 16 and you look up and down the sideline and the guys are so discouraged. We are now a part of history and like you said in a city that is really in a dark cloud. And we just add to that. Sports can be that entertainment venue that gives a little life gives a little joy to a dark time and here we are adding to it. It really made people mad at us.
Dennis: Is there a dark cloud over Detroit?
Dave Wilson: Definitely.
Dennis: You can feel it in your church.
Dave Wilson: I feel it in our church. I feel it in our community and neighborhood and in the schools. It isn’t the end of the world but there’s a darkness and weightiness. Even those of us who still have jobs it just feels like we are all in this thing and there’s no light at the end of this tunnel that we can see.
Dennis: So it’s all back to a statement that I mentioned many times on FamilyLife Today by A.W. Tozer. The most important thing you think is what you think about God.
Dave Wilson: Exactly. I’ve never even heard that quote. You just blew me away with your incredible wisdom, Dennis.
Dennis: There you go Dave.
(laughter)
Dennis: You’re a pastor of a church. That’s what you’re doing as you bring a community of faith together you’re pointing them back to believe the truth about God. He is in control. He does love them. He’s still good. He has a plan. And he is a God of refuge and a God of strength.
Dave Wilson: I agree. I said it in a sermon not too long ago the two major questions every person has to answer in economic times of trial. It’s clear as anything. Who is God? Where is God? It’s that simple. Who is he? You need a track record. You need to know the word of God. You need to know what the word says about him but then you need to look back on your life and say I know this is true. I’ve experienced this. He is faithful. He is a rock. How you answer those questions even for a pastor like me are very, very critical.
Dennis: Just because we aren’t prospering. I think America has lived under the arrogance of feeling like because we prospered therefore God is pleased.
Dave Wilson: Right.
Dennis: God is here. God is for us. Well, guess what? We’re not prospering at a level we used to be prospering. So perhaps our false theology is being exposed by these economic hardships.
Bob: And perhaps the economic hardships can be used by God to bring spiritual life. I’m wondering about that. Have you seen people grow in their relationship with God in profound ways in the midst of some of these economic hardships?
Dave Wilson: Way deep in the recesses of my mind I know we’re going to look back hopefully in a year or two hopefully not 20 years is it going to take to get out of this. But we’re going to look back not just as a church but as individual believers and say this is some of the best times of my spiritual life.
Here’s a quote I heard. Scarcity brings clarity. It’s really true. When everything is stripped away you start to focus on what really matters. I think people are starting to say. Money wasn’t the answer. A 401k isn’t the answer. My marriage isn’t even the answer. What’s the answer?
I’m telling you we’ve grown 20 percent at our church and I’m sure a lot of churches are seeing that in Detroit. It happened after 911 and then it trickled off. We’re seeing it grow as well. We’re not seeing giving increase but we are seeing numbers increase. Probably 1500 in the last 9 or 10 months in just our church.
Dennis: Wow.
Bob: Dave you know the Bible teaches that Christians should evidence the fruit of the Spirit in their lives. If the Spirit lives in you there should be peace. There should be joy. What you’re describing about Detroit doesn’t sound like a place where there is a lot of peace or a lot of joy how does a Christian in the midst of an environment that has this cloud over it still demonstrate hope, faith, joy, love peace. How do you live supernaturally in the midst of the cloud?
Dave Wilson: When you figure that out you tell me. No, I’m kidding.
(laughter)
Dennis: Wait a second. You’re the pastor of the church of 11,000. You’re supposed to have all the answers.
Dave Wilson: Yes, I do. I have all the answers.
(laughter)
Dave Wilson: That is a great question and I wish I could say it was simple. You just plug into Jesus and you connect to the vine and out of the vine comes the fruit. That is true. I know that’s true. And it is the answer. It is the answer. The Holy Spirit produces that fruit. So we have to be grounded in him. And again I think it’s what are you looking at?
If I’m looking at the economy I’m not going to have that fruit. If I’m looking at Jesus and the ticker tape of Jesus what does that look like? It’s up and to the right. It’s still going up. Nothing has changed. I have to be reminded of that probably every five minutes. Just to remind myself this is what’s still true. This has always been true. It’ll be true tomorrow and ten years from now.
Whether there are 20 signs on my street of homes for sale or not he still is in control and can be trusted. Then is a sense of peace and joy.
Bob: I’ve had to wonder in the midst of all this if we need a news fast as Christians. For a month we’re not going to listen to what the news is saying because like you said every time you turn it on and it’s this plan, this bail out, this layoff. It weighs you down. It’s not ignorance is bliss and stick your head in the sand.
Dave Wilson: But it’s Philippians 4:8. Dwell on these things—things that are right and pure and things that are lovely. The news really is hard. It takes your mind to a different place.
Dennis: I heard Ben Stein say that he no longer looks at the news. He told his wife every night after the news about 10:30 he wanted to commit suicide. It was no fun.
You as a pastor Dave leading a church of people who are discouraged and underneath a cloud you’re seeing marriages and families impacted by this cloud as well.
Dave Wilson: Yes, out of the sense of fear and loss of hope comes stress and anger. There are things guys don’t even know are happening in their pyschy and their emotions. Anger because they are stressed. I do the same thing when I’m under stress and scared I’m lashing out at my wife and my kids. I might not even realize it until hours later going back and saying this had nothing to do with you. This had to do with me being afraid of providing for you and our family. That is impacting all kinds of marriages.
Our phone lines at Kensington are lighting up and we do numbers on these to know who is calling and why they are calling. Number one is marriage and family crises calls and number two is financial. It isn’t the reverse. It’s the other way around. I think number one is a symptom of number two but those are number one and number two. We have crisis calls. We have counselors. We have lay counselors on call all the time to help people negotiate through the fear and stress and then the impact that has on their marriages.
Bob: Dave, have you seen couples or families in your church go through these storms maybe they are still in them and you’ve just pulled back and said that’s the picture. They are doing it right. And if so what are they doing that’s causing you to say they are doing it the way it should be done.
Dave Wilson: Yes, I’ve seen that. I would say the quote scarcity brings clarity. The scarcity of their lives and the economic stress clarified what matters.
Bob: Yes.
Dave Wilson: And even couples that one day started well meaning that they started with the foundation of Christ and they just sort of drifted as you can do in marriage over months or years that scarcity brought them back to what matters. It’s Jesus Christ. We’ve lost that as the core and center of our marriage. How do we get back to that? How do we pray together? How do we talk openly about our fear and take that to God? How do we lead our children? How do we get involved? Not just go to church but how do we get involved and become the church? How do we lock arms with other couples and other families?
All that working together. You step back and say, Look, there’s a model. They are doing it. They are connecting with Christ and with Christ’s people. They are impacting the community by reaching unchurched people and they have lost the focus of it’s all about us. Instead their focus is about loving God and loving others. The next thing you know they have a solid marriage and they don’t even know how it happened. They just started doing the things that the Bible has always said to do.
Dennis: Practically speaking you’ve undoubtedly seen church members face the alternative of foreclosure on their mortgage. How have you seen that addressed within the Christian community and fellow believers coming alongside their brothers and sisters in Christ?
Dave Wilson: Well, I’ve seen the bad and the good of that. I’ve seen some and even heard stories of people walking away from their house because they couldn’t make the mortgage payment getting another house before they foreclose
Bob: Oh, my.
Dave Wilson: So that they can get the next house because once you foreclose your credit…so I’ve seen that where they literally walk away some don’t even foreclose they just leave. I’m not saying anybody did that in our church because our church is perfect and nobody would even do that…
(laughter)
Dave Wilson: I’ve heard those stories and I’ve seen other people where the ability of others to come around them is not enough to sustain a mortgage month after month so they are having to walk away. Their houses are still up for sale. I don’t’ know of anyone personally where their house is foreclosed on but their house is still up for sale and they’ve moved in with other people and they are still trying to find a job.
Bob: Well, let me ask you this. A buddy of yours calls you and says Dave, I don’t know what to do. It’s the third month in a row that I’m not going to be able to make my mortgage payment and I’m not sure how to handle it. I want to do it honorably before Christ but I don’t have a job and the savings are gone. What would you tell him?
Dave Wilson: I think the first step would be let’s get together with you and me and whoever is in your community of people. There’s hopefully several families. Let’s sit down and come up with a game plan. Part of it may be we are all going to pitch in a little bit and help if we can. Part of that obviously is going to the bank which is happening often in Detroit. And it’s amazing some of the concessions they are making. I know a buddy of mine had a $4000 a month mortgage and they reworked it to $1000 a month just to help him. Five years ago that would never happen but they are understanding as well the guys going to lose his house this way maybe we help him for a period of time so that’s part of it. The community of Christ getting involved.
Dennis: Again don’t assume that because someone is at a point of crisis that they have necessarily taken the appropriate steps. Sometimes fear in a crisis like this causes people just to be paralyzed and do nothing until it’s the day when they are going to turn the lights out and come in and take the house over. It’s important I think in those times to come alongside those people and as you said Dave help them think through a game plan of what they can do. In the end it may mean they have to walk away from it and then you have to coach them in terms of starting over.
Dave Wilson: Yes.
Dennis: And what that looks like.
Dave Wilson: One of the amazing things that we’ve discovered and you’ve seen the same thing is that many people if not most people don’t know how to handle finances. They are in debt and the whole thing.
So, starting in November we offered at our church Dave Ramsey’s material. A 13 week study and I made all of our teaching pastors go through it and then we stood on stage and said get in it. Five thousand people are now completing at Kensington Dave Ramsey’s material. That was a real gift I think. To say how can we get some understanding and what’s a budget and the whole thing. That’s another helpful thought I think.
Bob: You’ve already talked about money being one of those stronghold areas in your life and fear of being able to provide. I think every guy has inside a desire to provide and so there is some anxiety if you feel like you’re not going to be able to do that. In the midst of these times how’s yours and Ann’s relationship been and what has she done that has encouraged you in the midst of the strain and stress you feel.
Dave Wilson: She’s gotten three jobs so it’s been really cool.
(laughter)
No, I’m kidding.
Dennis: You should have said I told her to get three jobs.
(laughter)
Dave Wilson: I did tell her. Two. One. Anything.
(laughter)
No, one of the blessings I have in my wife Ann is she understands. And she’s not a man obviously but she understands the level of anxiety that at least her husband carries so she’s been a real support. She’s prayed with me. She’s encouraged me. In some ways it’s laughable but she has looked me in the eye and said you’re the man!
And I know she’s saying it because she read it in a book and my number one need is to know that I’m the man and I’m respected. I just smile and say thanks but inside I’m just puffing up like I think she really believes it and that feels good. She believes in me. Ultimately she believes in God but she believes her husband will get it done for the family. And that is such an encouragement to get me up to do it no matter what comes.
Dennis: She gives you the respect that enriches the air around you and nourishes you.
Dave Wilson: Right.
Dennis: Now I want to take you in the other direction.
Dave Wilson: All right.
Dennis: There are those right now who are going through tough times. Maybe it’s related to the economy or it may be a subset of the economy. I know that you and Ann because you speak at the Weekend to Remember marriage conferences have had some tough times. In fact some dark times. Take us to your darkest time in marriage and how you two processed that and came out on the other side together and committed to one another.
Dave Wilson: Toughest time and I hate to say I can think of several but the darkest window of our marriage was year ten. On our ten year anniversary we went out on a date romance the whole deal I thought everything was wonderful. I share this story at the conference but on the way home this is the year we started Kensington our church I thought it would be fun to surprise her by parking lot of the school where we were about to rent and start this church. She hadn’t even seen it yet. I thought it would be cool. We’ll park. We’ll pray. And we’ll make out and go parking.
(laughter)
That’s what I thought we’d do. So anyway I lean over to kiss her and she won’t kiss me. We’ve had a great night. I had ten roses brought to the dinner table one for each year and we talked…I mean I did it all right. Romance and spent a lot of money on a nice meal. I lean over to kiss her and she says the words I’ll never forget. She says I’ve lost my feelings for you. And it was just silence. I pulled away. We’re in the front seat of a Honda Accord and I almost didn’t believe it. I said, what are you talking about? She says you’ve been so busy and the last six months I’ve been angry and bitter at your schedule. You’re not there. You’re not the husband and dad you committed to be and just all kinds of things that I really didn’t see.
I was your typical guy thinking we’re a 10 out of 10 and she’s saying we’re a 2. She wasn’t saying I’m leaving or I’m divorcing you she was just saying we’re in trouble. That night ended with me on my knees in the front seat in that Honda Accord and she joined me. I didn’t ask her to. It was about Dave repenting of not a moral sin. Just a luke warmness. Not even so much in my marriage but in my walk with God. I was coasting. I was not in love with him. I was doing ministry and speaking. I was doing all the right stuff and it looked from the outside like I was in love with Jesus. It was a façade. I was not rich. My roots were not sunk deep in the vine of Jesus Christ. I knew all the right things I just wasn’t literally doing it. Getting up and spending time and knowing him.
It’s been because of that 10 year commitment by both of us to say this is about Jesus Christ. We’ve got to be solid in him. Out of that comes a love relationship and even our sons who we are sending to the world as ambassadors in a war.
Dennis: It’s back to the verse that Bob quoted earlier Galatians 5. But the fruit of the Spirit…if you’re walking in the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience…
Dave Wilson: Kindness
Bob: Goodness…
Dennis: Self control. It’s the fruit that grows. It means that as you spend time with Christ and you build your life from him and he makes you into his man or his woman then that fruit is a part of your life. That builds a marriage. That builds a family. It doesn’t make you perfect. It’s not like the fruit pops out instantly. Mature fruit takes time. Every marriage needs that whether you’re in an economic hardship or whether you’re going through a tough time in your marriage and family. Every person needs that commitment to Christ. Dave I’m thrilled your on the team of speaking at the Weekend to Remember. You and Ann are great friends.
Dave Wilson: We love it.
Dennis: I have a feeling Bob even though there is a bit a cloud over Detroit right now we have several people wanting to join Kensington Community Church because of Dave Wilson.
Bob: I think this is one of the seasons when all of us have a heightened awareness of our need for biblical community. We need one another to point each other in the right direction and to make sure our thinking is on target so that we can sharpen iron together and so that we can walk through adversity in this shared community.
Dave you’ve shared that one of the things you’ve done at the church is to have folks go through Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University material so that folks can be thinking rightly about their money now and in to the future.
We have recommended for years that people get a copy of Larry Burkett’s Family Financial Workbook. It’s a tool that’s designed to give families the worksheets that they need to help get their financial house in order to begin applying biblical principles to their finances.
You can go to our web site FamilyLifeToday.com and there is information available there about the Family Financial Workbook. Again the web site is FamilyLifeToday.com. You can also call to request a copy of the workbook. Our toll free number is 1 800 FLTODAY and order it over the phone. That’s 1 800 358-6329. That’s 1 800 “F”as in family “L” as in life and then the word TODAY.
I think these are also times when it’s good to mediate on what the Scriptures teach about where God is in the midst of adversity. Dennis, you gave a message to our staff not long ago on Psalm 34. Providing encouragement, hope and help in the midst of trials and tribulations. David knew something about experiencing trials in his life and learning how to rely on God in the midst of those trials. We have that message on CD and we’d like to make it available to our listeners this month if you’re able to support the ministry of FamilyLife Today with a donation of any amount. And let me just say we do appreciate those of you who have been generous in providing financial support for this ministry during these difficult economic times.
When you make a donation of any amount this month either on line at FamilyLifeToday.com or by calling 1-800-FLTODAY make sure to request a copy of this CD message from Dennis. It is called Trials and Tribulations Finding Encouragement Hope and Help in Psalm 34.
If you’re making your donation online at FamilyLifeToday.com just type the word “trials” in the key code box that you find on the donation form so that we’ll know to send you a copy of this CD or call toll-free 1 800 FLTODAY. That’s 1 800 358-6329. Make your donation over the phone and just ask for a copy of the message on trials by Dennis or the message from Psalm 34. We’re happy to send it out to you and we so much appreciate your financial faithfulness and your support of this ministry.
Now tomorrow we’re going to introduce you to Robert Rogers and you’re going to hear a compelling story of a man who faced a loss more significant than any financial loss. We’ll hear his story tomorrow. I hope you can be back with us for that.
I want to thank our engineer today Keith Lynch and our entire broadcast production team on behalf of our host Dennis Rainey I’m Bob Lepine. We will see you tomorrow for another edition of FamilyLife Today.
FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock Arkansas. Help for today. Hope for tomorrow.
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