How to Walk With God When You Don’t Want to Live | Christine M. Chappell

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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Overcoming Motherhood Depression

Guest:Christine M. Chappell

Release Date:July 24, 2025

Christine:The Lord was asking me not to work harder at not being depressed, but to walk with Him through it where I was at—to ask Him: “Show me how to live in this moment when I feel like I don’t want to live at all. How can I glorify You with my life?”—that encounter with the Lord, through His Word and His world, gave me that fresh sense of hope.

Ann:I just think your story is so inspiring.

Ann:I’m going to start today a little different.

Dave:Oh, boy! What does that mean?

Ann:I’m going to read something—

Dave:—before even introducing our guest?

Ann:Yes; I just want to read this.

Dave:You’re going to read something she wrote, right?

Ann:Yeah.

Dave:—or something you wrote?

Ann:No, something Christine wrote.

Dave:Alright.

Ann:“After weeks of languishing, I told my husband what he already suspected. I was in urgent need of help. I can’t remember if we took a picture of her or not; all I know is that our daughter’s first day of sixth grade was also the first of my seven days in the psychiatric hospital.”

When I read that—

Christine:Oh, you have tears in your eyes.

Ann:When I read that, it drew me in: “What in the world? This isn’t like the beginning of most books that I read.” We have Christine Chappell with us today. She’s gone through some things that have been really hard.

Dave:How long ago was that?

Christine:Almost eight years.

Dave:Eight years.

Ann:Will you take us back there? You’ve written about this because you’ve experienced some incredible pain; and yet, you’re sharing it. I was reading this, thinking, “Your story is so compelling. You’re brave to be able to bring us into it to offer hope and help.” Take us back to that day.

Christine:Yeah; it was a hot summer morning and had really wrestled all night—and even in the morning hours—with whether or not I was going to tell my husband what I had done the evening before, which was cut myself. This was weeks of hardship. We had just moved across the country on a shoestring budget. We had three young children. We had left the only church family I ever knew; and we, basically, just set off from California to South Carolina, without any idea where we would live. We just knew we wanted something different.

That whole journey—and the moving process, in and of itself, was a big ordeal—and lots of bumps along the road, financially. We were strapped, relationally—my husband and I—in the stress of that season. We were really struggling. I also think I had a lot of unprocessed grief from the death of my father, years earlier. It just kind of all came to a head.

Ann:And I’m just going to say: as women, we carry all of that at the same time. We’re thinking about our kids; we’re thinking about our family. You’re probably thinking: “How are we going to adjust?” “Where are we going to live?” As you said, back there, you’re still grieving over the loss of your dad. That’s a lot!

Dave:I don’t think we, as men, do it quite the same way. We can sort of put that in a little file over here; and still,—

Ann:I’m sure some men do that.

Dave:—but you are carrying all that.

Christine:I had had a history of depression and self-harm in the past too. This was the end, so to speak, of a15-/16-year battle with on-and-off depression. This was not, all of a sudden, I was feeling depressed. I had encountered this over and over again in my life.

Dave:At that point, was your husband aware? Like you said, you’re going to tell him; or you’re trying to decide if you’re going to tell him.

Christine:I was going to tell him that I had hurt myself the night before. I had drunk a bottle of wine and just became overwhelmed with grief. I was watching—this may sound silly—but I was watching Phantom of the Opera and the scene where Christine is crying in the graveyard at her father’s grave. It just—everything leading up to that moment—and all of the different layers of disappointment, dashed hopes, conflict, hurt, pressures from the kids, financial worries, housing concerns, no church family to back me up—it all came to a head. I did turn to self-harm to cope with that overwhelming emotion. I had wanted to die for weeks.

Ann:—which probably, also, you had shame wrapped up in that, I’m guessing.

Christine:Well, there’s so many layers. That’s what is so important in the book, Midnight Mercies, is really trying to help people to broaden their understanding of what it is to step into a depressed-mother’s world; because it’s not just one layer most of the time. And not to say that that depression is always related to circumstances, but circumstances are definitely involved. She’s not just living isolated from experience; the past bleeds into the present sometimes.

I was brought to the end of myself in that season, and I had wanted to die. I had actually been imagining ways to die in the weeks leading up to this. It got to a point where that morning, after I had hurt myself—which had been the first time in a number of years—I had to have that conversation. I had the Holy Spirit fighting for me when I didn’t want to fight anymore. I just wanted to go away.

Dave:What do you mean?—fighting for you?

Christine:Life; fighting for life. I wanted death.

Dave:You felt like, “God’s keeping me alive, even though I don’t want to.”

Christine:Right; you want anything you can do to get out of the misery. And when you’re that low, you’re desperate—desperate for change, desperate for relief—desperate for anything other than what you have.

For me, at that moment, the choice seemed right: “It’s life or death.” It’s the most real imaginary fight of life or death—not really in a matter of life and death—but in my inner world, it seemed like, at that time: “These are your two options…” That’s what Satan loves to help us to kind of fuel: “No, you’ve only got one way out.” That’s what it felt like.

And so that morning—that you read—I had to come to the realization that these thoughts, though are common, they were an indicator that something was really wrong. I couldn’t fix on my own that I really needed help.

Ann:Were you totally hopeless?

Christine:Yeah, I wanted to die!

Ann:That’s hopeless.

Christine:You want to die because you cannot foresee a future in which happiness exists anymore, and so how do you endure that? How does anyone endure a future that seems so bleak? And from your perspective, that’s what it looks like—I’m not saying that’s true—but from the pit, and you’re looking up, that’s what your reality looks like; and it seems to be true.

Dave:Now, who in your house knew that you were struggling that deeply?

Christine:Well, I didn’t have any family around. It was just my husband and I.

Dave:Did your kids know?

Christine:Well, they were young.

Dave:Sixth grade was the oldest?

Christine:Yes; and then, the other two were three and four.

Ann:They were little.

Christine:Yes, little.

Dave:What did your husband know? Was he seeing things or feeling?

Christine:I’m sure he knew I was—because, again, that wasn’t unfamiliar to him either—we had been together, at that point, for 16 years. He knew that, when I was walking through those dark periods; but I don’t think that he realized how deep it was.

Part of the Lord really convicting me, in terms of seeking help, was the fact that I was bought with a price. I don’t belong to myself; Jesus bought me with His blood, and I’m to glorify Him in my body. Sometimes, when we’re walking through depression, or even experiencing suicidal ideation, glorifying God with your body looks like taking your body—taking yourself to someone—and saying: “This is where I’m at, and I don’t know what to do.”

Ann:So you have the choice of killing yourself. God is like: “No, tell somebody; tell your husband.”

Christine:Right; because one of those choices is going to lead to life. I’m not talking about long life or whatever; but in the moment, one of those choices is going to lead to life. And that honors God; because if He’s given you breath for the day, you’ve got life to live. He hadn’t snuffed out my life, so I’ve got to steward this life somehow.

The night before, I had failed to steward it through turning to alcohol and self-harm. That was part of the shame. And even moving into the week, I spent in the hospital, going to the emergency room that morning; because it was the only option for help at the time.

Ann:So your daughter gets on the bus, and you go back to your house and pack.

Christine:I pack. That was hard, because I had been to the psychiatric hospital before. I knew you don’t go to the emergency room, and say, “This is where I’m at”; and then, they send you home: “Okay, well, you’ll just hang out here for…” No; it’s like, “No.” They put someone in that room with you to monitor you to make sure you don’t hurt yourself. So now, you’ve got a stranger staring at you as you do every move. I knew where this was headed, but you just get to a point sometimes, where you’re like, “I literally don’t know what else to do.”

Ann:What did your husband say when you told him?

Christine:Yeah, it was an unexpected response; but I really do feel like it was one that the Lord set up for us in that moment. I had told him where I was at; and he essentially grabbed me in a loving way, and said, “I’m not going anywhere.”

Ann:What did that mean?

Christine:It meant that he didn’t know either. But it’s like sometimes, in the midst of those moments, you don’t need someone with answers; you just need someone to be there with you.

Ann:But yeah, to you, that meant—

Christine: —“I’m not alone in this.” “Look, we don’t know what’s going on. Obviously, life is hard; but there’s these hardships that we’re facing. Is there something else going on? We just need help.” We don’t know what that help looked like; but for him to say that to me in that moment was a gift, and I’m thankful for it. It meant that I had someone else sitting in the darkness with me.

Ann:You’re battling together; he is battling alongside you.

Christine:Right.

Dave:I just want to say to the husbands listening: “If your wife’s going through any struggle like this—

Ann:—and wives, Dave.

Dave:Yeah, it goes both ways—but I’m talking to the guys: “Because I’m your husband…”—that’s a godly response. That is exactly Jesus’ words: “I’m not going anywhere.” Maybe you’re in a situation right now, and your wife needs to hear you say that. I’m just saying, “Say it.”

You go on; sorry, I just had to—

Ann:No, that’s good.

Christine:That’s right; because it is so—depressed people are hard to love—they’re not pleasant company, often.

Ann:[Reading from Midnight Mercies] “By the time I arrived at the emergency room, I mostly felt weary and desperate for emotional stability—that—and afraid of going through another psychiatric hospital. I’ve been down that road before. We had to do something; and apparently, this was it.” That is hard!

And there was a point where you said you were looking through the window. What was that?

Christine:Yeah, I mean there was a big window in a little room that they had where you could essentially kind of say you’re parting goodbyes; because you go into this type of hospital voluntarily. I went voluntarily; but you don’t go out until they say, “We’re letting you go out”; and you also don’t receive visitors freely. At that point, with my husband, I was saying goodbye for I don’t know how long. I didn’t know how long I was going to be there, and what the journey would look like.

As he left out the doors, I was in this room, where we had a table and ate some food; and then, said goodbye. I just remember seeing him basically buckle—and just put his head in his hand—and just start weeping. He’s there, probably not even knowing I can see him. I’m watching him; he can’t see me. We’re both just in that moment of we were so broken. It’s like, “How do we fix this?” We had no answers; we did the thing that God put in front of us to do. We called the insurance company; they said, “Well, you’re in a new state. You don’t have a primary.” We trusted the Lord with that next step, even though it was the one I did not want to take.

But that moment was something I’ll never forget; because it was that shared brokenness for which we were powerless—in the face of—powerless to do anything. I couldn’t help myself; he couldn’t help me. He helped me the best he could, which was to get me to the hospital. But other than that, we didn’t know what the next few days was going to look like.

Dave:Do you think—maybe, you’ve talked about it—that his buckling there was sadness?—fear?—a mixture? Because you’re on that one side of the window, and you know what you’re feeling; and to see that, it’s like, “Whoa.”

Christine:I think he just felt, from what he’s told me, it was just this overwhelming sense of helplessness.

Dave:Powerless.

Christine:Powerless. As a husband, he wants to be a fixer—and his other half is broken—and “How do we endure?” I wouldn’t put words in his mouth necessarily—but I think it was definitely a mixture of grief—but also, of helplessness and not knowing. We had three young kids at home. He needs to worry, now, about his wife in the hospital. Now, I’m feeling shame because I’m like, “Well, look at how hard I’ve made his life.” There’s this mutual grief over this situation that was really just heartbreaking.

Ann:Every chapter, you have a Bible character, who has gone through what you felt; and you identified with them.

Christine:I think Moses was a great place to start; because I think, when we talk about Moses, I mean he’s pretty high up there.

Ann:I agree.

Christine:He’s pretty high up there.

Dave:He’d be one of my top ten/fifteen I want to see, to talk to.

Christine:But I love that the Scriptures are so real about the human experience. Not even our Savior didn’t experience overwhelming despair. To some degree, we can put people up on pedestals; and of course, Jesus absolutely should be. But in terms of Moses and other characters, we think of all the great things that they did, and the faith that they displayed; and forget the wrestling, the doubt, the questions—the anger in this case—the hopelessness, the despair that they had to go through. They didn’t start off as these great men of faith. Over time, with walking with God, they became more mature in that way.

They’re just as broken as us, just as sinful, and weak, and needy. Numbers 11—I turned to that because that was where he was at—basically, God had put him in this situation, where he had to feed all these grumbling people.

Ann:He was overwhelmed.

Christine:He was overwhelmed at feeling like he was being given/tasked with doing way too much, with way too few resources. It seemed, from his perspective, that God wasn’t helping. I think moms can relate to that. We have—many of us anyways—have children, who are chirping like baby birds; and they want a lot from us. We can sometimes feel like God has put so much on our plate that it’s like: “How am I going to feed all of you?” or “How am I going to do everything that is before me?” And Moses—

Dave:The biggest bird that’s chirping is your husband.

Christine:Right; yes. It can be overwhelming. Moses basically gets to a point, where he’s talking with the Lord; and he says, “Why have you dealt ill with Your servant? Why have I not found favor in Your sight that You lay the burden of all this people on me?” He has a meltdown; and at the very—I’m not going to read the whole thing—but at the very end, he basically says, “I am not able to carry all this alone. The burden is too heavy for me. If You will treat me like this, kill me at once.”

Ann:That is honest and real.

Christine:And I’m not saying this is how we should talk to the Lord. This was not Moses’ finest moment, but it’s a moment of humanity. It’s a moment that real people, who have real burdens—which is all of us—can relate to. What I write about, in Midnight Mercies that week—that morning even—I was at that point of: “Look, this is how it’s going to be. I can’t continue like this. Lord, if You’re not going to help, I can’t go on. I am unable to carry this burden anymore, so let’s be done with it.”

He found fault with the Lord in this story. God graciously responded to him, and his meltdown, by basically saying, “Go collect some people who are wise. Go collect a group of elders; and when you get all these people together, then I will come and talk to you.” But his direction is: “Go get some mature Spirit-filled men to rally around you, and buoy you in the midst of your overwhelm.”

Ann:And sometimes, when we’re overwhelmed, we just want to go into hiding—some of the things that you said—and some just fix ourselves and numb ourselves out in some way. God’s saying, “No; run toward the people.”

Christine:—which is the opposite of what depression would have you do, which is to push the people away.

Ann:Isolate.

Christine:Yes, to isolate or to withdraw.

Dave:The worst thing you can do.

Christine:Right; in depression, that is where you feel comfortable. It’s comfortable to be—I’ll speak for me; I don’t want to speak for everyone—but for me, it was far less work to just be by myself. Because the issue is that—in the past, I had gone to other people—and sometimes, people are gracious; and they speak kind words. But a lot of times, you’re misunderstood; or you’re mishandled.

Even, in the past, if you have tried to reach out, and express how you’re feeling—because, sometimes, we fumble for words; we don’t know how to articulate our pain—or when it comes out, it just sounds silly to someone; and they don’t understand why it seems like such a big deal to you when it’s not a big deal to them. And so now, all of a sudden, you’ve been shot down so many times, they’re like: “It’s too much work; it’s too much work to keep coming to people and looking for help.” That is the temptation—is to say—“You know, why bother?”

Dave:And yet, as you write: “If you have the right people, who are skilled and compassionate,—

Ann:—”Spirit-filled,” you said.

Dave:Like you said: “…you’re a house on fire.” Explain that. That was a great visual for me to understand. You’re a house on fire; you can’t put fire out yourself.

Christine:Well, I had an actual house fire in the middle of writing Midnight Mercies. The Lord, in His providence, ordained that this would be the first chapter—that this fire would—I speak from experience when I talk about the house fire. That night of the house fire, when the flames were consuming our home, I wasn’t thinking: “What should I have done to prevent this fire?” “How did this fire start?” “What can I do to make sure I never have fires again?” No, it’s like: “We need someone to put this out. Who do we call?” I’m on the phone with the 9-1-1 responders; that is the first priority.

Similarly, with depression in particular, it’s as if your body is a temple; it’s a temple of the living God. Depression can kind of—and hopelessness, especially—can feel like the temple’s on fire. We can, instead of turning to the spiritual first-responders to come help extinguish the flames of hopelessness, we may sit and just ruminate: “Well, why am I feeling depressed?” “What should I have done so that I don’t feel this way?” and “What can I do to make sure I never feel this way again?” Instead of actually just seeking the help we need to extinguish the fire first; and then, address: “Why did this fire start?” once the flames are out.

Ann:Christine, if we’re friends—if you come to a friend—how can we help to put the fire out? Because the house is on fire; we see it on fire. Is there something we should do, or say, or not say, that would help?

Christine:I think that it will depend on what the situation is. In my case, and what I write about in Midnight Mercies, the next right step was what I write about—which was sharing the burden with my husband—and then, trusting myself to him and what the suggestions would be from our insurance company for: “What should we do for seeking to get help?”

But I would say that in that moment, just being there. I quote from Drew Hunter in his book on friendship; I think it’s called Made for Friendship—just that idea of, when we have relationships with our spouse or with friends, that those people, who are journeying alongside us, can be like they’re holding a candle in our darkness—sometimes, it’s just that ministry of presence, with someone who is in darkness, that there’s a little flame, a little flicker of hope that: “I’m not alone in this. Even though I don’t know how to escape it, at least, I’m not alone in it.” For that moment, it’s bearable; because the darkness is less scary when there’s somebody sitting there with you.

Of course, Jesus is there; but our perception of Him, in the midst of that time, He’s very difficult to perceive.

Ann:We were recording a couple months ago. My phone was buzzing. I looked at it—we had a guest—but I looked at it, and I saw that it was somebody who’s been suicidal before and has been admitted. As we had a little pause in the conversation of our interview, I looked at it; and it was from a woman who said, “By the time you read this, I’ll be dead. I took a bunch of pills, but I just wanted to say, ‘Thank you.’” Then, I’m like, “Oh!” I call one of my friends, to say, “Hey, can you call 9-1-1? Can you get somebody there?”

I think what your husband—you guys must have agreed to put the fire out—“We need to go to the hospital.” I think that’s what she needed too. She needed somewhere to get safe to protect herself to begin the journey. That’s not easy. Did your husband recommend going to the hospital?

Christine:No; I think he just recommended: “How do we get to get an evaluation?” If we would’ve been back in California, then perhaps, we would’ve called the general practitioner.

Ann:But you knew who to call; and now, you didn’t.

Christine:Yeah; he called the insurance company; because we’re like, “We don’t have South Carolina insurance.” There’s these particulars—the real practical details—that you need to be able to get care of any kind: “Who’s going to pick up the phone and make the calls?” That was my husband’s service to me in that moment: “I’m not fixing the problem, but I’m making the phone calls.”

Ann:That’s great.

Christine:He’s doing what I clearly was not able to do. I didn’t even know where to start. I made it very clear: “I need someone to care for me right now; I don’t know what to do.”

Sometimes, that help with a friend does look like: “How do we orchestrate intervention so that this person can be kept safe in the midst of their desperation?”—with the hope that that it will subside in time.

Ann:She did live.

Christine:Praise God.

Ann:Yeah. As I was reading, I was loving that you included Isaiah 40:28-31, that says: “God will not grow weary of your need for help, nor will He ever tire of being your strength.” He’ll never grow weary or get tired of being our help and strength; isn’t that so good? If you’re struggling, just put that up there—as a young mom is, especially when you feel so overwhelmed, you can’t even see—memorize those Scriptures to remind yourself when you don’t feel like that’s true.

Christine:And that’s come up in counseling conversations that I’ve had with women, where—

Ann:And you’re now a licensed therapist.

Christine:I’m not a licensed therapist; I am a certified biblical counselor. It’s a different track; I do meet with women, who are seeking intensive discipleship is another way of putting that. But when my conversations with women—and I felt this too—where you get to a point, where you’re like, “Man, I’m sure that God is just sick and tired of me struggling the same way, over, and over, and over again. He’s tired of hearing from me.”

We have to combat that with: “No, this is who the Lord is. He’s not surprised by your weaknesses. He’s not surprised that you continue to struggle. He already knew all the different ways you’re going to struggle every single day of all of your life. So this is not a surprise to Him—it’s surprising to us: the depths of our weakness; the depths of our need is a surprise to us—but not a surprise to the Lord, who formed us in the womb. He formed all of our days before there was even one; Psalm 139 talks about that. That was a comfort to me—and I hope has been a comfort to women with whom I’ve spoken about it—is just recognizing that our neediness is not a surprise or a liability. It’s actually part of the way God designed us to be dependent on Him.

It honors Him when we are needy, and we recognize our need. The danger comes from when we think we’re independent: “I’ve outgrown the gospel,” “I’ve outgrown my need for Jesus,” or “That grace has strings attached, and so I’ve got to earn favor instead of resting in the grace that God gives through Christ.” That recognition that He’s not going to grow weary, that He will bear me up as many times as it takes until I get to glory. That may be a lot more times than I would prefer it to be, but that’s what He promises to do for us.

Ann:Totally. I love that Joni Eareckson’s book was the first book I ever read as a Christian; I was 16 years old. Joni Eareckson says, “God, if I can’t die, show me how to live.” That meant a lot to you too. Isn’t that powerful? She said that she was in such depression, she wanted to die. I remember reading that as a 16-year-old; she was around that age when she was paralyzed from a diving accident. She didn’t want to live anymore. She said, “When I said that to God—’God if I can’t die, show me how to live,’—it was the first time I woke up in the morning and it felt different.”

Dave:Is that the answer?

Ann:I don’t know; I don’t know the answer. That’s why Christine’s here! She’s going to answer it.

Christine:I think that that’s—we see it in the Scriptures—we see this appeal for life in the Scriptures. I think you’re talking about quotes from the “Weariness” chapter. Every chapter of Midnight Mercies, we comb through a different emotional facet to the experience of depression: hopelessness and weariness being two of them.

When we even look to Elijah’s story in 1 Kings 19, we see that weariness to the point where he wanted to die. Again, we see another great man of the Bible—men of faith—

Dave:Right after crazy-great triumph.

Christine:Right.

Ann:His greatest triumph ever.

Christine:You would have thought he’s superhuman; although, obviously, the Lord empowered him to do all of that for that particular time; but he didn’t call Elijah to be that way all the time.

Moms, we will be empowered to juggle a lot of balls, as the Lord wills. Sometimes, He wills us to do that to be capable and productive. But then, there are other times in life—or maybe, you’re in a situation, as a mother, where you just have significant limitations: chronic illness, or disease, or a disability—where God has not willed you to be able to wear a lot of hats and to juggle a lot of balls. Learning to live for God in the midst of your limitations is, I think, a spiritual skill; so something that we have to learn. It takes humility to be able to say, “Lord, the strength that I have today is not only from You as a gift, but also something I am to steward. I am to honor You with however much or little strength that I have, however much breath or little breath You give.”

Again, that just comes back to putting Christ at the center of all of our different emotional experiences—instead of me at the center; and then, getting so self-focused in my own weariness and “How can I even bear it? I just want to die,”—those can become ingrained thought patterns, where that’s just the default mode of: “Okay, this is uncomfortable. I want to escape, and death could certainly be a means of escape.”

But in Elijah’s case—when he has what Spurgeon calls “a fainting fit in the wilderness and asks the Lord to die,”—he feels like he’s a failure as a prophet. He hasn’t been successful in turning the nation of Israel back to their one true God; he’s just like, “I can’t do this anymore.” I think, as a mom, I could connect with that. But we see the Lord meet him in that moment with mercy and compassion by helping him to just sustain his physical nature until he kind of got his wits back about him.

I think, for moms, just understanding that we’re all built with limitations; and that it’s not wrong to live within those limitations. When we put Christ at the center of that, then we ask questions like Joni did: “Lord, how can I live for You in the midst of this moment when I would really just rather disappear?” And those are even hard words to say.

Dave:I think it’s also a chance—again, I’m talking for the husbands here—but a chance for me, as a husband, to come alongside Ann. Your husband came along; any husband can come alongside his wife when they’re depleted, when they’re at the end of the rope. It could be just a long day; it could be a week. It could be sadness and depression; or it could just be: “I’m overwhelmed,”—to come alongside and pick up; be the partner.

I don’t know who it was—I got to find this—somewhere on Facebook or Instagram, somebody posted; some marriage couple that does marriage stuff. I just saw it real quick, and that’s why I don’t remember. You know what I’m going to say? It was the one, where they said, “In our marriage, when he comes home at the end of a workday; and I’m there, we’ll look at each other. She’ll say, ‘I’ve got 30 percent.’”

In other words, you’re walking into a house—”I don’t have 50 or even

60 percent; I’ve got 30,”—and he goes, “Okay, I got 70.” And the next day, he comes in, and says, “I got 80”; she goes, “I got 20.” It’s just like: “Whoever’s lacking, voices it. And the other says, ‘I’m your partner; I’ll be there.’”

Ann:It gives you grace for the other person.

Dave:It’s that kind of thing—that’s oneness—I think God wants us to do. And sometimes, you say, “I got 30”; and your husband says, “I got 10”; and now, we’re in big trouble! You can’t even get 50 together.

Ann:That’s true.

I was thinking through that, even as a husband—your chapters—if you’re a mom, listen to these: “Hopelessness,” “Weariness,” “Sadness,” “Anger,” “Anxiety,” “Shame,” “Loneliness.”

Dave:And that was just this week!

Ann:And you end it with “Hope”; you end it with “Hope.” But I’m like every single-mother experiences—every person does, really—but it can feel so overwhelming. And when I first picked your book up, and I looked at those chapter titles, I’m like, “Oh, this is my girl. She gets it, and she’s talking about it.”

But for a husband to ask you: “Have you felt weary lately?” “Have you felt sad lately?” or “…angry?” or “…anxious?” “When have you had shame or lonely?” “I felt more lonely in my marriage than I felt single,”—and to voice that.

Dave:And I was going to say there were times when I didn’t get it; still don’t.

Ann:Yes, you do.

Dave:But early in our marriage—especially, with young kids—now, I’m going to say what you would say is: “If I would get you away from the kids—get a babysitter; go out on a date—and I’d look at her and say, ‘Have you been weary? Tell me about your weariness’; she said, ‘I think I would cry. Nobody asks me that.’”

Ann:I just wanted: “How are you doing?”

Dave:And you’re actually saying, “How are you doing?”

I remember one time; she goes, “Could you just do this?” I go, “Yeah, what’s that?” “Just ask me how I’m doing.” I’m like, “What?! What do you mean ask you?” “Just ask me how I’m doing. I’d love to tell somebody how hard it is,” or “Maybe, I’m doing good; but just be that.” I’m like, “Okay.” I was like, “Let’s have fun; you’re good, right?” No; she’s like, “I need to talk to somebody about how hard this is, and how the kids were. There’s poop everywhere, and it’s just…”—whatever. I can’t talk to your world. But is that true?

Ann:It’s totally true.

Dave:Every one of those chapters would be a great way for a husband to say: “Are you sad?” “Have you been sad?” “Can I help you say it out loud?”

Ann:And your husband may not be the one that initiates that; but you could even get Christine’s book, and just say, “See these chapter titles? I’d love for you to ask me about that periodically,” And to say, “I struggle with some of that sometimes.” And he’ll be like, “Struggle with shame or anxiety?” Just to say, “Do you know what it’s like to be a mom these days? It’s hard.”

Christine:I like that—and I appreciate that you’re bringing this point up—because I think that there are women, who are listening, who grieve the fact that their spouse may not be that emotional support system—

Dave:—and they’re alone.

Christine:—spiritual support system. Even though you have a spouse, does not necessarily mean that they have any kind of willingness to enter your inner world. They may, in fact, be the one who has mishandled you or misunderstood you as you have turned to him to share how you’re feeling.

I think that we—even though this particular Scripture is not in Midnight Mercies—I love, when I’m talking about depression and lament, to look at Hannah’s story in 1 Samuel. We see, even in that dynamic, she’s barren. Her husband has another wife; and the other wife is taunting her because she has kids, and Hannah doesn’t. But it says very clearly that the husband loved her.

Ann:And he says, “Can’t you just be happy with me?”

Christine:Even though she has a husband, who loves her and cares for her—gives her some special privileges and pays special care of knowing that she’s heartbroken because of her bareness—he still doesn’t get it.

I want someone to speak a word to the women, who are listening, where their husband just doesn’t get it. Even though you’ve tried to explain how you’re feeling, it’s like you’re talking to a brick wall; or you’re afraid of even saying something else, because he has been harsh in his response, like, “Oh, cry me a river,” or “Oh, just get over it. What have you got to complain about?”

Ann:“How long is this going to go on?”

Christine:That’s part of the difficulty, I think, in navigating this. Although it would be great to have someone who is compassionate and kind, that’s not always the case.

But even in Hannah’s situation, we see that that’s not the case. The husband does not understand, even though he loves her. I don’t want to bash him or anything; but at the same time, she still needed to talk to someone. What do we see her do in the story?—talk to the Lord about her great anxiety and vexation. That word for vexation can also mean or explain a kind of grief-anger. We see Hannah bringing her—over her barrenness and the taunting, and nobody understands me—this lament to the Lord. She’s talking to God about her anxiety, and her anger, and her grief openly. And that’s not condemned. Eli, the priest, doesn’t come and say, “Oh, you’re not supposed to feel angry,” or “…anxious,” or “…sad.”

Ann:He thinks she’s drunk, at first.

Christine:Yeah; he doesn’t get it right, out the gate.

Ann:—but then—

Christine:But once she explains what she’s doing—”I’m pouring out my heart to the Lord,”—he basically blesses her. She walks away from that encounter with renewed hope. She didn’t walk away from that time of lament and wrestling with increased hopelessness. Anyway, I just wanted to throw that in there.

Ann:Yeah, that’s good.

Christine:Because that is part of what the Lord will do to redeem even our depression. He’s training us to depend on Him, in our prayer life—and in every moment of what we are going through, as mothers, through the day—because we will, although it’s important to have community and have support, there’s only one Person who can go with us everywhere. My husband couldn’t come with me into my room in the mental hospital,—

Dave:—but Jesus did.

Christine:—but Jesus did; He met me there. And that’s where the book ultimately goes to: is to that moment.

Ann:Take us there, with hope; because you ended with hope.

Christine:Yeah, there’s a lot to it that I write about in the book; but I think there was the moment that was the watershed moment for me in the mental hospital in my room. If you’ve ever been there, these rooms are not adorned with a whole lot. You’ve got a bed and a bathroom, and that’s pretty much it. Maybe, some shelves for some personal belongings; but not much else. I did have a window.

I basically got to a point where—I was able to bring my Bible—now, I had not brought myself to open my Bible for weeks. That added to the grief because I loved the Scriptures. I was in there all the time, seeking God’s face. There are periods of life—when you are a Christian, where for some reason, God decides that He’s there, but going to hide His face—kind of like what Mark Vroegop talks about in his Dark Clouds, Deep Mercy. The fact that God seems like He’s hidden from us doesn’t mean He’s absent, but that’s what it felt like. When I turned to the Scriptures in the weeks leading up to this week, it felt like they had gone dead. That was part of the sorrow, like, “Wait a minute; did I get this wrong?” Now, I’m, all of a sudden, questioning my salvation: “Is this even real? Have I been duped?” That was hard.

But in the hospital there, I made what I felt like was a last-ditch effort for hope: “Is there anything, God?” I’m like, “Here I am; show me something fresh.” And so I comb through, as anyone does: “Here…oh, I don’t know.” You just start thumbing through the Scriptures: “Is there something in here that will give me anything that I need in this moment?”

I turned to Psalm 59, and I start reading it. This was maybe 15 minutes into my desperate search for life in the Scriptures. Finally, my eyes just locked in like a laser to Psalm 59:9,10. It reads: “O my Strength, I will watch for You, for You, O God, are my fortress. My God in His steadfast love will meet me; God will let me look in triumph on my enemies.”

What that had meant for me in that moment—I just started crying, because I knew this was a word for me—God was my strength; I didn’t have to be strong. He was asking for me to watch for Him, to take refuge in him; He is my fortress. It was particularly this line, though: “My God and His steadfast love will meet me.” That was the hope that I needed there in the hospital, all by myself, feeling like I had been abandoned or forsaken in my despair. I took that word literally; and I said, “Well, I’ve got nothing else to do in this hospital room but to watch for God and His steadfast love to meet me; I mean, it says right there. I’m going to stand on that; and we’re going to do this, Lord.”

I went to the window, committed to stand and watch for the Lord to meet me, having absolutely zero clue what on earth that meant; I didn’t know. I wasn’t expecting Jesus to manifest in the room or something; but I’m like, “Well, this is what it says. I got nothing to do—I’m going to do it—

Ann:—”I’m going to watch and wait.”

Christine:—”I’m going to watch and wait, because this is what the Word is saying. This is where I feel like the Spirit is leading me.”

I stood there at the window, watching for minutes; it felt like hours. Then, I realized I didn’t have my glasses on. I might be able to watch a little bit better if I got my glasses on; because from what I could see is just this big sprawling oak tree in the courtyard, but nothing else—no ants on my windowsill; no butterflies fluttering around—

Ann:And you’re looking for anything.

Christine:—I’m looking for any—like, “God, give me a sign.” I’m not advocating for that; but that’s what I was feeling like in this moment—looking for signs of life from the Scripture—but also even in the world, out my window.

Finally, came to see, after I put my glasses on, something that I had never seen before. Not only did the Lord give me a fresh word from His Word, but He also gave me a fresh encounter through His world with a brand-new sight, which was a sleeping squirrel. In this sprawling oak tree in the courtyard, I see a squirrel laying on its stomach, with its legs hanging over the branch, it’s tail just dangling in the breeze, sleeping. I’m like, “I’ve never seen a squirrel ever do anything like this before.” They’re usually—

Dave:I’ve never seen it.

Christine:I’ve never seen it.

Dave:Is that a thing?

Christine:They’re usually—

Ann:I have; I’ve seen one.

Christine:It’s a thing; but in that moment, I knew that this moment was ordained for me. I saw myself, in that squirrel. As a mother, I was that busy-bodied creature. When you think of squirrels—and maybe, when I think of them—I think of scurrying and digging holes; and they’ve got to go collect the nuts.

Ann:They’re fast!

Christine:They start in front of cars, and risk their life to get to the other side of the road. I certainly don’t think of them as being calm, cool, and collected on a hot summer day, taking a nap.

But in the midst of this day—the midday sun—this squirrel recognized her need for rest and refuge, and took a nap in the tree. In that moment, I felt like that was what the Lord was inviting me to do. I had been working so hard, for so long, to try to be different—be a better mother; be a better wife; be a better Christian; be strong; be steady; be stable; be calm, cool and collected when life was hard—and God wasn’t asking me to do any of that. Not one time did He ask me to do any of that. His invitation to those, who are weary and burdened, is: “Come and find your rest in Me.” I resonated with that squirrel that day.

Ann:It sounds so funny: “I resonated with this squirrel.”

Christine:I know; that sounds silly.

Ann:I read this out loud to Dave last night; because I said, “That would be me.” God speaks to me through nature.

Christine:—through His Word and His world.

Ann:Exactly.

Christine:And this was a revelation that came through the Scripture; He met me there.

Ann:He gave you the Scripture first.

Christine:He gave me the Scripture first; and then, gave me the creature to see, as a reflection of my own self, and a fresh invitation to rest and refuge. And then, ultimately, connected this tree at the center of the courtyard to the tree that—as a Christian, as a believer in Christ—the tree that is at the center of my life, which is the cross of Jesus Christ. The cross of Jesus Christ was not one of rest and refuge; it was of labor, and pain, and agony, and torture. Because of that tree, He was cursed—hung on a tree—I could come to the Lord and find the rest and refuge that I needed.

Again, it sounds silly to link that to a squirrel; but this is how God connected the dots. I’m stewarding the story with it, okay? Because I knew that nothing had changed about my circumstances in that moment. I was still in the hospital for days after that—still didn’t know what the future looked like; still felt depressed—nothing had changed other than the fact that I felt seen and known by God.

Ann:Did you have hope?

Dave:That’s a big change.

Christine:Yeah, it was a fresh sense of hope!

Ann:And you started your book with “Hopeless.”

Christine:“Hopelessness”; right. This book takes us on a journey from hopelessness to hope. The hope was found in the fact that God’s mercy was most clearly seen at the apex of Christ’s misery. That’s what He put at the center there—that tree—it was no accident. None of this was an accident in my life. I love to steward this story; because it was the watershed moment for me, where I went down to the bottom, and Christ was there. He met me there. Nobody else could come into that room with me, but He went; and He didn’t say, “Come on, Christine; come up to where I am. Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, and just do a better job at not being so sad or upset all the time.”

He came down to get me; I needed rescue.

Ann:It is the gospel.

Christine:Yes, I needed Him to come where I was at, to hold that candle that I talked about earlier; but then, to give me hope. And knowing that, because of the cross of Christ, I am not forsaken or abandoned, even in the pit that—I think Zack Eswine; I heard him talk about depression one time, talking about the hand of grace—the grace of God goes lower than however low you’re going to go. You’re never going to fall deeper than the hand of grace can catch you. That was true in this particular situation.

That just totally reoriented my whole perspective on what it is that I was going through; and ultimately, what the Lord was asking me to do, which was to rest—not to work harder at not being depressed—but to walk with Him through it, where I was at; to ask Him: “Show me how to live in this moment when I feel like I don’t want to live at all. How can I glorify you with my life in the midst of these meltdowns?” I’m not saying that that worked overnight, but it did—that encounter with the Lord, through His Word and His world—gave me that fresh sense of hope.

Ann:And every mother needs to hear that and be reminded of that.

Dave:What part?

Ann:All of it that: He’s with us, whether we’re at the highest—

Dave:—Jesus sees you.

Ann:Yeah, He’s with us; He sees us; He’s never left us. We can find our hope in Him—not our circumstances, or our kids’ behavior, or any of it—it’s in Him.

I just think your story is so inspiring.

Dave:When you get to that place, where you just were like: “I feel seen,” “I feel heard by God,” “He’s with me,”—and then, your three-year-old’s crayons all over the wall and the dog—it’s just the life of a mom—is so chaotic. You have those moments; but then, you have to juggle 18 balls: “How do you stay steady?”

Ann:“How do you rest in the midst of chaos?”

Dave:When you got out, and entered back into your world after where you were, how were you able to take even the sleeping squirrel rest into this new world? Because the world’s still what it was when you left, and you got to re-enter. You’re in a different place and, hopefully, never going back there again. How did that function for you?

Christine:Well, it took some practical changes. One of them being just total, total abstinence—I don’t know a better word for it, and help me if there is one—but just not ever drinking again, just a very practical choice of: “I am not drinking alcohol anymore; period.” We know studies have shown there is a rise in alcohol consumption, and depression, and suicides with moms.

Ann:Really?

Christine:Yes! And I’m not saying that that’s the cause. I had to—

Dave:There’s a connection.

Christine: —I had to get to a point—it’s by God’s grace that I did not end up in the

30 percent of completed suicides, that do have alcohol present in their systems. I had to get to a point, where it’s like, “Look, I don’t know exactly why I feel the way I do all the time; but there are things that I can do that are certainly not going to make it worse.” The drinking was making it worse; it was not offering any kind of life for me. It was just compounding the sorrows. It seemed to offer a way of escape, temporarily; but the problem’s still there when the buzz wears off; you wake up the next morning.

Practical changes—also, to sleep: being very protective of my sleep—I want to advocate for that; because we could over-spiritualize some of this to the neglect of just really practical changes in lifestyle. Some of the lifestyle changes also included just changes to my expectations of the season that I was in. Having aspirations for this goal or that goal—nothing wrong with that—but sometimes, we’re in a season of life where those things are just not in the cards for the moment. So learning to rest in the midst of that—when you have things you want to do or accomplish and you can’t—is trust in God with: “Well, if that’s what He has for me, then it will happen.”

I have to reduce my—and shrink down my world—to: “What is God putting before me in this moment?”—not: “What do I want to accomplish in six months?”—but it’s like: “How do I get through the next 15 minutes? Okay, well, I’ve got kids; and they need lunch. Okay, so I’m going to glorify God by making the lunch,” or “…doing the next thing that He puts in front of me.”

That was part of it, too—just training myself to have a smaller view of my world in terms of the demands, that were many—but knowing that that was not nothing. Even being faithful in those little seemingly little things was actually me stewarding myself—my body—for the Lord and doing what He has put before me. I think, as moms, we could think that God’s putting a million things on our plate; when it’s actually us kind of throwing way more on the plate than what actually God requires.

Ann:I think—even asking for help—that’s really hard for me to ask for help. My friend’s daughter really had postpartum depression. When they talked about it, she said, “It’s just killing me not to get sleep with an infant.” She requires a lot of sleep. The parents [of the daughter asked]: “Do you need to come?—you and your husband. Would you like to live with us for a while so that your husband can have some help at night, and you can have some help at night?” They moved in until she got over that. Just that little bump, of when she got some sleep, the world looked a little different; but to admit to it, and say, “I need some help.” I think that’s important.

Christine:Absolutely. I’m glad that you mentioned that, because I’m starting to hear that more often. Whether or not people are just now sharing about it more, or what have you, having that sense of: “Okay, look…” That’s how they did it in the olden days—was that community—that you had babies,—

Ann:—they’re all together.

Christine:—and they were all together. And now, we have just become so compartmentalized in our lives that it’s like we want everyone to be hands off—“We’ll let you know when you can do something,”—there’s that sense in which it seems as though I’m a failure, as a mom, if I cannot feel capable and highly productive, which is what that Supermom term is getting at. But God didn’t call us to be highly productive and capable. He actually created us to be dependent on Him for everything.

Again, I don’t ever like to talk about this stuff as if you just have these right—

Ann:It’s not a formula.

Christine:It’s not a formula. This was a journey for me that took years. And by God’s grace, I’m at where I am today because of Him—not because of me—because of His Word and His Spirit. Not because I was smart and figured something out—He drug me along, kicking and screaming—I point to the hope that He has given to us in Christ, because it is a living hope.

And that hope is that, though you may be in a season of darkness, there’s always light that comes after darkness. That is the promise of redemption: there is always blessing after the brokenness. There’s always honor after shame. That is the promise of the gospel: is that we will have glory after the suffering, but not the other way around. The glory doesn’t come first; we’re going to suffer with Christ before we share in the glory of Christ. Learning to be content with that, in the midst of disappointment, and hurt, and heartbreak, is something that all of us are on our own journeys of trying to figure out: “How?” It’s not a one-size-fits-all for everyone; but it is a good work that He promises to do in us through community, and through the church, and through His Word.

Dave:Hey, here’s my last question before we go to a bonus segment. Have you ever, since that time, struggled back; you felt like, “Oh,—

Ann:—slipping,

Dave:—”I’m slipping back toward there”?

Christine:I think, maybe, the first year I had some bouts with depression that was not at all as significant; but I have not, since then, had any alcohol or self-harm. The Lord freed me from those things. Despite myself, He did that work; and I’m thankful. That’s not to say that I’m always happy; that’s not to say that I only experience pleasant emotions. I think part of the journey—

Ann:You wouldn’t be human if you didn’t.

Christine:Well, but that could be what someone takes away; is that: “While she had all the hopelessness, weariness, sadness, anger, anxiety, shame, loneliness in that season; but now, she never does.” When, in reality, it’s that: “No, those emotions are still there. But I’ve, by God’s grace”—I’m not taking any credit for this—”but the Lord has shown me how He views me in those moments, when I feel hopeless, when I feel weary, when I feel angry, anxious, ashamed, and lonely—and knowing how God is going to guide me through those difficult emotions to a place of hope and a posture of humility. I have become less helpless—less so—it’s a totally kind of backwards way of thinking about it—I guess you could call it—that’s the fruit.”

It’s the fruit of the walk with Christ, over the years, is that those painful emotions—while they still come up from time to time—I know what to do with them. Now, I know who to take them to; and I know that, even though they’re a very real part of my experience, they’re not the end of the story. There’s more, and that I have to learn how to wait with hope; but ultimately, just take that next step that the Lord puts before me, in faithful obedience; because the outcomes belong to Him. He’s not going to obey; I need to do what He wants me to do in that moment, so that I can just make it through whatever He’s got planned for my day.

Ann:I love that; I love your heart for Jesus. I love your love for the Word, and just that you’re vulnerable enough to share your journey. Because man, a lot of us are feeling—maybe, we haven’t been hospitalized—but we deal with all those emotions, and we don’t always know what to do with them. I’d love for you to pray—but you also have a podcast—has that been helpful for you and therapeutic?

Christine:Oh, yeah.

Ann:What’s it called?

Christine:The podcast has been such a blessing to me; it’s called The Hope and Help Podcast. That is with the Institute for Biblical Counseling and Discipleship. I’ve been doing that podcast for six—almost; no, six years actually now—I have conversations/biblical conversations about life’s challenging problems. Every episode, I interview guests who have written books—kind of like what we’re doing now—talk about a particular topic and show how the gospel really does offer us hope and help in the midst of those problems.

Having those conversations, and speaking with guests who have written on a particular topic, there are episodes I’ve listened to over and over again; because I need the comfort and the counsel.

Ann:Us, too; it helps! That’s why I was saying it’s therapeutic for you, probably, just like us.

Christine:The Lord’s been gracious; through those conversations, I’ve established friendships and have gotten different opportunities. But most importantly, it’s been a part of deepening my faith in Christ—my confidence in Him, in the midst of hardship; and understanding what redemption is, how it weaves in with the miseries of life—and how we can walk with Jesus through all of those hard times.

Ann:That’s good. Will you pray for us, or pray for our listeners?

Dave:—and for moms.

Christine:Yeah. I’ll pray specifically for the mom, who feels really discouraged, really discouraged; and maybe, even disillusioned in her faith right now.

Heavenly Father God, thank You so much for the opportunity to huddle around Your Word today with Dave and Ann as we consider Your mercy, the mercy that You have for mothers, who are struggling through seasons of grief, or depression, or difficulty.

God, I pray for the listener now who is just feeling like she’s at the end of her rope, for the listener who feels like she can’t possibly face tomorrow; because today feels so heavy for her. I pray that You would meet her where she is at, that You would give her a fresh sense of Your mercy toward her—not because You changed circumstances, God—but because You are with her in the midst of the hard circumstances.

Would You reveal Yourself?—Your love and Your care in a special way for her today. Help her to take courage in the fact that her Savior, Jesus Christ, knows what this experience is like. He, Himself, was overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death in the Garden of Gethsemane. Help her to connect with her suffering Savior, the Man of sorrows, that she may take comfort in His affliction and take courage for the next moments that she faces in her day.

Thank You, Lord, for Your gospel. Thank You for the good news that You give us and the hope that You give us in grief. Thank You that the darkness does not win, but light is at the end of all of our stories. After we suffer, there is glory. After death, there is life. Thank You, Lord, that You are our Redeemer and that You love us. In Jesus’ name I pray; amen.

Ann:Amen.

Dave:Amen.

Dave:Well, thank you, Christine.

What we’re going to do now is we’re going to do some bonus materials. This is for our FamilyLife Partners. If you’re like, “What’s a Partner?” A FamilyLife Partner is someone, who says, “I’m going to give financially, monthly, to FamilyLife.” That’s how we exist, and we so appreciate that.

One of the ways we want to say, “Thank you,” is we are going to do a bonus question or two, just for them. If you’re like, “Man, I want to hear this!”—and it’s going to be about marriage, by the way—go to FamilyLifeToday.com; hit the “Donate” button to become a Partner with us, on a monthly basis. You’ll get some of this bonus material every time we do an episode.

Ann:What’s the question? Can you tease us?

Dave:I wasn’t going to tease it, but I can.

Technician:We’ll tease it right now; and then, we’ll stop.

Dave:Okay; I’m going to ask these two moms and wives: “What we, as husbands, can do to help you, as moms and wives, flourish?” Or maybe another way to think about it is: “How could the marriage function in a way that would bring life to our wives?”

Ann:And if you’re a woman, listening to this, you can send it to your husband; he could maybe watch it.

Ann:Hey, thanks for watching. If you like this episode,—

Dave:You better like it.

Ann:—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave:And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—I can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this word!

Ann:I can subscribe.

Dave:Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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