How to Raise Boys Who Respect Girls – Dave and Ashley Willis

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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How to Raise Boys Who Respect Girls

Guests:Dave and Ashley Willis

Release Date:October 23, 2025

Dave Willis (00:00):

We just tried to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age.

Ashley (00:04):

You want to talk about the bus?

Dave Willis (00:05):

One of our son’s first day of eighth grade—

Dave Wilson (00:07):

Oh yeah.

Dave Willis (00:07):

—came home and he was like, “Do girls really like it when guys text pictures of their private parts to them? And we’re like—

Ashley (00:14):

“What?”

Ann:

This is eighth grade.

Ashley:

Eighth grade.

Dave Willis (00:17):

But not freaking out in front of your kids is huge.

Dave Wilson (00:23):

So we have Dave and Ashley Wilson in the studio today.

Ann (00:27):

I want to have banners.

Dave Wilson:

You didn’t hear what I said. Did you guys catch what I said?

Ashley (00:31):

I did.

Dave Willis (00:31):

I did.

Dave Wilson (00:31):

There’re so many people that call us Willis.

Ann (00:33):

Wait, what did you say?

Ashley:

Dave and Ashley Wilson.

Dave Wilson:

I said Wilson. You ever get called Wilson?

Ashley:

Yes.

Dave Willis (00:38):

I would change my name and be legally adopted by you two.

Ashley (00:42):

Oh my goodness.

Dave Wilson (00:42):

And the sad thing is we’re old enough to probably do that.

Dave Willis:

No, not quite.

Ashley:

I was going to say not quite.

Dave Wilson:

We have David and Ashley Willis.

Dave Willis:

You be my adopted big brother.

Ashley (00:52):

There you go. There you go.

Dave Wilson (00:53):

No hair. I’d take your hair and your name. But anyway, I don’t know if that’s the way we want to start, but we’re starting that way.

Dave Willis:

Welcome to the broadcast.

Dave Wilson:

We love you guys so much that it’s just a joy to have you here. We watch you. We watch your videos.

Ann:

We follow you.

Dave Wilson:

And follow your life. And it’s fun when you get to come to Orlando. We get to sit here.

Dave Willis (01:13):

We love hanging out with you guys.

Ashley (01:13):

Oh, we do. It’s a real treat. It really is.

Ann:

And it’s fun because we’re all passionate about Jesus, but marriage is something that man, it beats in our blood and we want people to have better marriages, better families. So we have a lot in common that way. What are we doing today?

Dave Wilson (01:28):

We’re going to talk about different things. First of all, Dave, you wrote a book and of course you remember this. This was during COVID, right?

Dave Willis (01:35):

Yeah.

Ashley:

Pretty close.

Dave Willis:

Yeah.

Dave Wilson:

It came out during COVID.

Dave Willis:

It came out during COVID; wrote it, yeah, probably like the year leading up to COVID.

Dave Wilson (01:42):

Here it is. If you’re watching on YouTube.

Dave Willis (01:43):

Still an important message.

Ann Wilson (01:46):

Yeah, it is.

Dave Wilson:

So my first question is this; Ashley, you tell us, how does Dave respect you?

Ashley (01:53):

Oh my goodness. I mean so many ways. I think he always tries to give me his best attention and listens well to me. I feel like he shows our boys how to respect me by how he treats me every day and just showing me respect in his time, in his words, in his eyes. I think that he celebrates me well and it trickles down to our boys. And so I feel like our boys wouldn’t have as much respect for me as they do if you didn’t teach them that just through your example because you do such a great job of that.

Dave Willis (02:27):

Well, she’s very easy to respect first off, so I have it easy in that department because I am married to the best person. But it’s important. I don’t know for you dads who are listening, our kids are watching you, our example as fathers. I had somebody tell me when I was a young father, “You’re teaching your sons how to respect women and you’re teaching your daughters what they should expect from men someday by your example, by the way you’re treating your spouse.” And so that really stuck with me and I thought, “Man,” and we never had daughters, but with my sons, I want to model that. I want them to catch that. If they don’t catch much else from me, I want them to at least catch that. But they have such an amazing mom. She is very easy to respect.

Ann (03:18):

Dave, did that always come naturally?

Dave Willis (03:21):

I think that it came naturally in that I had a great mom myself.

Ashley (03:26):

Her name is Karen and she’s amazing.

Dave Willis (03:27):

Yeah, I still do. I say it not past tense. I still have a great mom. Mom, if you’re listening, you’re the best.

Ashley:

And a great dad.

Dave Willis:

And a great dad. They’re the best. I will say something that kind of temporarily sabotaged my thinking is when I was a teenager into young adulthood, I got into pornography, which is part of our testimony, my testimony, that we’ve talked a lot about. And that whole mindset shift of just having those toxic, objectifying images in my brain really sabotaged me for a time in how I saw myself and how I saw women and how I saw sex.

Ann (04:02):

What did that look like? How did it affect how you saw yourself?

Dave Willis (04:07):

No sin ever stays in the little compartment you build for it, right? So if you think, “Well, this is just an escape or this is just entertainment”—

Ann (04:13):

It’s not hurting anybody.

Dave Willis (04:14):

“—it’s not hurting anybody,” all the lies that we believe—that I believed at least, and I think many others have believed around porn, but it’s insidious. It’s like a cancerous tumor that metastasizes. It breaks open and it starts affecting all these other things. And so in terms of how I saw myself, I started having less respect for myself because I was wrapped up in this thing that I knew to be wrong. I wasn’t taking steps to get help from it.

Ann Wilson (04:40):

Was it a secret?

Dave Willis (04:42):

It was a secret for a long time.

Ashley (04:43):

For a long time.

Dave Wilson:

And you were married?

Dave Willis (04:45):

Well, I started when I was unmarried, but I fell back into it in our newlywed years. And then I dealt with the shame of that. I knew Jesus said to look with lust is to commit adultery in your heart. And I’m like, “Oh my goodness, I’m being unfaithful.” And I hated myself for it. There was a lot of self-loathing. But there’s a verse in the Proverbs that says, “Like a dog that returns to its vomit, so a fool will repeat his foolishness.” I was that dog. I would return to the gross thing, and knowing it’s gross, but it’s like I just couldn’t break out of that cycle.

Ann (05:16):

So that probably created shame.

Dave Willis (05:17):

It did. It created shame. And as much as I would say I respected Ashley even through that, I don’t know that at that point in my life I was fully respecting anybody because just my whole mindset had been devalued. And so as a result, I was devaluing myself, devaluing others, and it was just a negative place to be. And so I think part of getting to a place of respect and just living the way God wants us to live is renewing our minds from just the junk that’s there. And porn isn’t the only form of junk. I think we can take on junk that impacts our relationships from our own, the homes we grew up in and maybe toxic behaviors we saw there, or words that were spoken to us when we were kids that have shaped our thinking about ourselves in unhealthy ways, or past relationships we’ve had, or just flawed messages we see from pop culture. I mean, there’s a billion different ways to get the wrong message, but when we go back to God’s Word and allow His Word to really renew our mind and to bring hope and healing and renewal and grace, then we can start seeing ourselves the way He sees us, and we can start seeing other people through His eyes. And the more we do that, the more we’re going to respect each other because God has so much respect for people.

(06:32):

He created us in His image for His glory. And so when you’re objectifying another person or disrespecting another person, you’re really disrespecting God who created them in His image. And so understanding that, I think just that principle can help all of us respect ourselves, respect the opposite sex and see humanity the way God wants us to.

Dave Wilson (06:57):

I mean, talk us through the struggle of porn in your marriage. I know there’s couples listening right now, some of them just went, “Oh, I have a secret. They’re talking about it. I don’t even know if I’m going to tell her or tell him.”

Ann (07:11):

And maybe the wife is suspecting something.

Dave Wilson (07:13):

Yeah. So how did you guys navigate? I mean, number one, you’re talking about it. We’re from a generation where you couldn’t even mention that. And now we have marriage authors, leaders saying, “This was a struggle” that a lot of people just said—I remember first time I mentioned it at my church, in the nineties. I didn’t tell my co-founder I was going to share this with the church, that I had a struggle. And I remember as I said that I thought—

Ann (07:38):

And it was past tense.

Dave Wilson (07:39):

Yeah, it was past tense. But I was trying to say this has been something I had to walk through. I remember having this thought, “I might get fired today” because a leader shouldn’t have this struggle. And I’m not only saying I have it or had it; I’m going to talk about it publicly. And as I walked off the stage, Steve looked at me and said, “You just changed our church.” And I’m like, “Uh oh, am I fired?” And he is like, “No. This is now going to be a church where people can be honest and real.” So you’ve gone the same route. You said, “We’re going to talk about this.”

Dave Willis (08:07):

Well, we have to be honest and real, and God blesses that. I mean, He blessed your church. Your church saw explosive growth after that.

Dave Wilson (08:12):

It became a place where people felt like they could be safe. But it was a hard thing in our marriage.

Ann (08:18):

Horrible.

Dave Wilson (08:18):

Because I wanted to keep it my private struggle. “I’m going to win this thing and I’m going to battle it, and she’s not going to need to know because I’m going to win” and then I’d fall. And so it couldn’t be a secret anymore. So how did it go for you guys?

Ashley (08:31):

Oh man. Well, Dave always likes to say that he wished that he had just come out with it. He dealt with this for so long in the early years of our marriage. And I knew, I think as spouses, we often know something’s off, but we don’t always know what it is. And I remember for a while thinking something’s off here. Because one of the things that attracted me to Dave the most, the first time I met him was he had what I refer to as honest eyes. And I just said, when I look at you, I feel like you’re totally looking back at me and you’re not hiding anything. And I just found that, I mean, I clearly was attracted to you physically, but my heart was attracted to you—

Dave Willis:

You felt safe.

Ashley:

—with the honesty. Right, I felt security and safety.

Dave Wilson (09:09):

I mean, when she said that, Dave, did you feel like you’re not honest because I have this struggle?

Dave Willis (09:15):

Well, I think at the time we were together, first getting together, I wasn’t looking at porn. It had been a past struggle, but I would have these kinds of little stints of sobriety with it. And I thought, “Okay, well I’m free from that. That’s part of my past and I don’t need to tell her,” which was my first mistake, not telling her it had even been part of my past struggle. But in those early years of our dating, if I’m remembering, I think I was free from it. So there was an honesty. I mean, I was being honest, but then when I fell back into it, which even took me by surprise, I was hiding in shame. And Ashley, who’s very perceptive, knew something was off and we were living in that tension.

Ashley (09:59):

And I would even say sometimes, “Are you okay?” And he’s like, “Yeah, I’m fine. Work is crazy.” You know what I’m saying?

Dave Wilson (10:06):

That is exactly our conversation.

Ann (10:07):

You feel it, something’s off. I remember saying the same thing. “Is something up? I just feel like a separation from us.”

Ashley (10:14):

Yes, a distance. And he would be so concerned, and I would see it. Now that I’ve been married to him almost 25 years, I know, I think I could read him like a book, but we were still getting to know each other in all of our cues that we give. And I knew there was something; porn was nowhere on my radar. And Dave always says, till this day, he’s like, “One of my biggest regrets is not telling you that I had struggled with this before we got married, that this was part of my past.”

Ann (10:44):

Because then it would’ve been on your radar.

Ashley (10:46):

Yes, and I could have been like, “Have you looked at porn? Just be honest with me.” And then we could have dealt with it. But he had built up so much shame. He had allowed shame to really creep in because he not only had not told me about the past struggle; he now was back in that struggle. And every time he said he just did not have the courage to tell me, and he wished that he had.

Dave Willis (11:05):

I didn’t want to disappoint you. I didn’t want to be seen as a failure or weak or any of these things. So whatever lies I was believing, it kept it in the dark until she just found it.

Ashley (11:16):

I found it, and I wasn’t looking for it.

Dave Willis (11:17):

This was before smartphones even. This was old school on an old clunky desktop computer. She found these terrible places where I’d been looking. And so then all at once, it’s brought out into the open in a really drastic way. And she called and said, “Is there something you need to tell me?” And I immediately, I knew, and I mean I was heartbroken and relieved at the same time, and I said, “You found it, and I’m so sorry.” And that put us on the path to healing. But even the path to healing was messy. I mean, it was so deeply ingrained in my mind. I know there was at least one relapse that I had, which just brought the same shame cycle all over again. And it was messy. Rebuilding trust takes time. I’ve heard it said Trust is built in drops and lost in buckets.” And I dumped out a bucket load of trust all at once.

(12:10):

She was so full of grace though, even in her woundedness, to walk with me and allow me to rebuild that trust over time. And for us to put safeguards in place to just make sure through filtering software and accountability and all the things that came with it, that we would have a household of honesty and transparency. And as our boys started coming along, I think having worked through that early in our marriage, it kind of gave us a foundation for knowing we want to raise them in a way where we’re honest about these things. They’re in a world where they’re going to be bombarded with all the wrong kinds of images, and we don’t want any of that to take root in them or shame to take root in them when they do stumble, but we’re going to start having conversations early.

Dave Wilson (12:56):

Yeah. How’d that look like with your boys? I mean, did you share your struggle as a dad with your sons when they got to a certain age?

Dave Willis (13:03):

Yeah, I mean in age specific ways we’ve tried to be completely honest and just by nature of what we do, we talk so openly about this stuff.

Ann:

You don’t have a choice.

Dave Willis:

I don’t have a choice, right, because it’s like—

Dave Wilson (13:15):

I mean, your ministry used to be called Naked Marriage.

Dave Willis (13:16):

Right.

Ashley:

Right. Yeah, exactly.

Dave Wilson (13:17):

And everybody thought “What does that mean?”

Dave Willis (13:18):

It’s like, “You were talking about this on stage an hour ago. You can’t pretend like this didn’t happen.” So that keeps me honest. What we do keeps me honest.

Ann (13:27):

What is age-appropriate you guys, to have those conversations of your own past? What do you think?

Dave Willis (13:33):

Gosh, I think it depends in some ways on the child. I don’t know if it’s like you hit this age, tell them everything on their 12th birthday. I don’t think it’s like that. I think you have to have discretion about the level of detail.

(13:48):

I think you can give them principles of, “I made mistakes in this area.” And then as they get older and maybe their temptations get more specific, then you can get more specific in kind of what your past struggles were, what happened as a result of the right choices and the wrong choices you made. And we tried to be honest about both, about here’s a time when I overcame temptation and it was a victory story, but they learn even more from the times you say, “Me, I blew it in this area and this is what that looked like, and this is what I felt, and this is the shame I was carrying.”

(14:26):

But we just tried to make it not weird to talk about real things from an early age. We would talk about their anatomy and like, “Oh, God made you a boy. That’s great.” We would use specific words for their anatomy and say, “That’s great. You’re going to be a man someday and be able to be a dad. And your anatomy’s never dirty. There’s never any of that. It’s private and people aren’t allowed to touch you there.” Sure. And “You tell us if there’s anybody that ever tries to violate that.” But not creating atmospheres where they would feel like they had to live in secrecy or shame as they started having these feelings about sex and puberty and all that. So I think that’s how it started.

Dave Wilson (15:09):

By the way, I just put it in a little call to action right now. You guys have just done for FamilyLife a How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex videos series.

Ann:

It’s a new curriculum.

Dave Willis (15:20):

I’m so excited about this resource.

Ashley (15:23):

So excited.

Dave Willis (15:23):

I think the team at FamilyLife did a stellar job. We got to partner with an amazing team to put together this resource. We’re the ones teaching on it, but it was a team effort putting together this curriculum. And I think it’s some of the most helpful, practical resources I’ve seen anywhere. Again, the team puts so much into it to help parents, guide parents, in age-specific ways to have these conversations with boys and girls. It’s not just for sons.

Ashley:

Yes, for both.

Dave Wilson (15:49):

Oh, it is. Yeah. That’s good. And by the way, just go to FamilyLife.com/SexTalk and you get Dave and Ashley talking about probably some of the stuff you just said.

Ashley (15:56):

Yes.

Dave Wilson (15:56):

Do you even get into porn?

Ashley (15:58):

Absolutely.

Dave Wilson (15:58):

Yeah.

Dave Willis (15:59):

We talk about all of it.

Ann (16:01):

And it’s called How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex.

Dave Willis (16:10):

So how and when do you talk to your kids about sex? What we’ve learned with raising four is that you start early. It’s not one talk. It’s a series of conversations in age-appropriate ways that start early by celebrating their gender, by being specific about their anatomy, talking about appropriate, inappropriate touch as they get into early pre-adolescence. It’s talking about puberty and the mechanics of sex.

Ashley (16:32):

Exactly. And boundaries as they enter into dating. And then you just keep talking about it. And as you lay this foundation of being an open place to talk about these things, you’re building trust and they’re going to come back to you with questions. And we try to answer those questions as best we can by being honest even about our own experiences. And I’m telling you that makes them lean in and that makes them want to come to you again and again,

Dave Willis (16:54):

FamilyLife’s How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex.

Ashley (17:01):

I think it gets intimidating for us as parents, especially with your question, like how did you or did you even approach the fact that porn is part of his past, with our kids? And I think it’s really important to know that there’s no perfect parents out there with the perfect past. And so we have to come at this knowing that we’re not perfect. Our kids already know that. My goodness, probably more than anybody. But I think even as we talk about sex to be real with them, to be authentic with them at an age-appropriate level, it gives them that safe place to come back with questions. Because it’s not just one sex talk. It’s a multitude of talks, right, over the course of time.

And like Dave said, it gets more detailed as they get a bit older and have those questions. But I feel like we knew back then when we had little kids that we would need to talk to them about this part of our marriage. And when the time came, we really talked about it as a couple, what do we want to share and what can we teach them from this? And we’ve been able to do that with each of our kids and put those safeguards in place as well that we still have till this day; to just not have porn at all, be part of our lives.

(18:03):

And I want to say this specifically as it comes to, with Dave having this past porn struggle, how did he try to of course correct and then respect me as a woman? One of the greatest things he did was really pay attention to where his eyes would go. And I think this is something like even in the counseling space, this is something I often hear from wives, not just with husbands with a porn struggle, but just husbands who have trouble with where their eyes go. It is so crushing to a wife when they feel like they have to monitor their husband’s eyes, and they can’t trust that he’s not going to look twice. Because here’s the deal—

Dave Willis (18:37):

Linger on an Instagram picture a little too long that’s maybe a little provocative or there’s, sorry to interrupt, but there’s just so many different ways that a guy can—

Ann (18:48):

And it’s crushing to a woman—

Ashley:

It’s so crushing.

Ann (18:49):

—because we already feel insecure.

Ashley (18:51):

Exactly. And the deal is we can’t control if an attractive person pops up on our screen, walks by our house, we see them out at a restaurant or whatever. There’re beautiful people everywhere. We can notice them, but we get to choose whether or not we keep staring or we keep looking or we start lusting over them. And so I just remember back in those days especially, I never really felt like I had to pay attention to that with Dave. But after I discovered that he had a porn issue, that was definitely on my mind. Well, what else is he looking at? It makes you doubt everything. And I was like, “Oh my gosh, is he thinking this lady over here is hot? Is he lusting about her?” I mean, you’re thinking those things. And I just remember he would go out of his way just to avoid situations where it would be super tempting, like gyms. We at one point changed our gym because we just didn’t want it to be a temptation. Instead of going to the amazing popular gym in town, we went to the YMCA.

Dave Willis (19:44):

Which I loved because the average age, there was about 94.

Ashley:

It really was.

Dave Wilson:

In baggy long t-shirts.

Ashley (19:53):

This is true.

Ann:

You feel better about yourself.

Dave Willis (19:54):

I felt so much better about myself.

Ashley (19:55):

A confidence boost.

Dave Willis (19:56):

I did. I made all kinds of friends. I’d walk around drinking coffee for the first hour. I did. And then when I finally started working out, I’d be like, “I am strong. Look at this.” I got 10-pound dumbbells, but I felt like Arnold Schwarzenegger.

Ann (20:10):

You guys there some couples hearing that’re like, “This is ridiculous.”

Ashley:

Oh, I’m sure they think that.

Ann:

And yet, Ashley, what did that mean to you?

Ashley (20:17):

It meant the world. It meant that I’m a higher priority. I mean, honestly, I wasn’t going to that gym thinking, “Oh, he’s looking.” But Dave was like, “Sweetie,” he goes, “I just think we need to go to the Y where it’s not even a thing.” Because there would just be a lot of scantily dressed women there.

Dave Willis (20:34):

People, men and women—

Ashley (20:35):

Men too!

Dave Willis (20:35):

—that were wearing things to be noticed.

Dave Wilson (20:38):

They want you to look.

Ann (20:38):

Yes, that’s why they’re dressed that way.

Dave Wilson (20:41):

Yes. Well, think about what you’re also, I mean, your kids are probably little then, but if they’re old enough to watch what’s happening, you are showing your sons, this is how you respect your wife. You change where you work out.

Ann (20:53):

Have you had that conversation and told them that?

Ashley:

Oh, I think so.

Dave Willis (20:56):

Yeah. I’ve told my older boys, and they got into gyms, and I would say, “Yeah, I used to go there, and this is why I stopped.” And now we just have some weights at home. And that’s like—so now it’s great. You just work out at home. But yeah, I’ve talked to them about that. I said, “Because everywhere I looked, it felt like an unsafe place to look in that place.”

Dave Wilson (21:20):

I remember—we shared this before—but when I was walking through a mall in Atlanta, Georgia, actually, Dalton, Georgia—you know where that is? That’s where her parents lived.

Ashley (21:30):

Nice.

Dave Wilson (21:30):

And so it’s me with the three boys, and I’m guessing my oldest was maybe 11, so 11, 9, 6. And they’re in front of me, and I walk in and I see in the middle of this mall, not in a store, but there’s this little magazine rack and it was low to the ground, and there’s like Sports Illustrated swimsuit—it’s some kind of swimsuit issue. And I’m literally looking at my boys to see if they notice it, and I notice my older son saw it. The other two, too young; didn’t even notice it. So I grabbed this—and CJ’s given permission to say this—but I grabbed him. I think he’s 11, and he hit maturity early, so he looks like he’s like 13, 14.

(22:12):

I go, “Hey, CJ, did you see that magazine rack up there?” He goes, “No, no, I didn’t see it.” I go, “I did.” He goes, “Oh, well, yeah, I saw it.” I go, and I’ll never forget it. And I’m down at his level and the other two boys are running around and I go, “Hey, did you want to look at that girl in her bathing suit?” He goes, “Oh, no, I didn’t want to look.” I go, “Well, I wanted to look.” He goes, “Well, yeah, I wanted to look too.” And I go, “So did you look?” He goes, “No, I didn’t look.” I go, “Yeah, I saw you; you looked.” And so all I did was go, “Hey, that’s normal. She’s a very beautiful woman. She’s on this cover. That’s normal. You’re going to want to look. But you know what I do, CJ? I don’t have eyes for anybody but your mom. And so when I see that kind of thing, I turn.” I go, “Let’s make a path.” And I’ll never forget, it was one of those moments like, “We are in this together.” Teaching him about sex was not really—it was an intentional moment.

Dave Willis:

It’s a great moment.

Dave Wilson:

The other boys weren’t there yet. That day will come. But man, that was a moment to respect women.

Ashley:

That’s so good.

Dave Willis (23:09):

He’ll never forget. That’s what the whole point of this book is. And the whole point of our, well, our video course is looking for those moments to just lead by example and make it a teachable moment without putting shame on them, to say, “Listen, it’s normal. It’s natural that you’re going to notice. You’re going to have these feelings. You’re going to be drawn. There’s not shame in that, but it’s what we do with those feelings. Realizing God has a time and a place within marriage someday for all of that to be expressed in a beautiful and healthy way. But until then, any expression to that is going to be a counterfeit on some level that’s going to hurt you and others, but don’t feel bad that you have these feelings. Just it means you’re becoming an adult.” And so you can celebrate their growth at the same time while teaching.

Ann (23:55):

With some safeguards.

Dave Willis (23:55):

With safeguards, which you did. And that’s a great example.

Ann (23:57):

When we talk about, and you talk about in this book, the locker room mentality, what is that? Is this what we’re talking about?

Dave Willis (24:09):

Yeah, well, the locker room mentality—

Dave Wilson:

Be careful. I’ve been in a lot of locker rooms.

Dave Willis:

I know. Hey, well, yeah, I wasn’t as athletic as this Dave, so I didn’t have as many locker rooms. I have been in locker rooms. I think though what I’m referring to is just when guys get in guy-only spaces—and it doesn’t have to be an actual locker room—but the mentality there when guys can get in guy-only spaces and the jokes all of a sudden can become degrading to women, or the talk can become overly sexualized, the bravado or trying to project, and we don’t outgrow it. I was at a gym not that long ago—again, like an older person gym; that’s where I hang—and there were two guys in their—they both had to be in their seventies, and they were talking together about porn as if—

Ann (25:03):

Really?

Ashley:

That’s what they’re into.

Dave Willis (25:04):

Yes, two seventies-year-old guys. And one was saying, “Yeah, I gave my laptop to my grandson, but I had to have my tech guy wipe it because I had all my good porn on there, and I didn’t want him to see that.” But they were talking about porn like you would just talk about cars or sports or whatever.

Ashley (25:25):

Like “Have you seen the latest movie?”

Dave Willis (25:26):

It was just such a natural—and I just kind of sat there as a fly on the wall for a while and thought, “You know what, without intentionality, we never outgrow sin.”

(25:36):

You never outgrow just sexual sin or lust or that mindset that disrespects women, that objectifies, and so it’s not just a thing of like, “Well, we got to teach our kids because when they’re teenagers, this’ll be a temptation, but then they’ll outgrow it and it won’t be a thing.” No, without Christ changing your heart and renewing your mind, and without being intentional of saying, “I don’t want to live that way,” then we’re all going to be the old guy at the gym someday that’s still creepy, that’s still—and it was—

Ann:

That is creepy to me.

Ashley:

It is but it was so normal. That’s what surprised Dave and I the most.

Dave Willis (26:15):

It wasn’t like, “Oh, I’m struggling with this. It was just like”—

Ann (26:18):

This is normal.

Dave Willis (26:18):

This is normal.

Dave Wilson:

This is what men do. It’s scary.

Dave Willis:

This is what men do, and men talk about.

Ashley (26:22):

And it’s making so little of men, and it’s holding them to such a low standard if that’s normal.

Ann (26:27):

And it’s keeping them captive and it’s affecting their future relationships with every single woman that they’ll have.

Ashley:

Absolutely.

Ann:

And the same is happening with women where porn has become so normalized and that, “Yeah, it’s okay for women to look at it too.”

Dave Willis (26:42):

It’s empowering even, they say.

Ann (26:43):

Exactly. And that’s affecting our futures. And we all know because we’ve been married a while, this really—

Dave Wilson (26:50):

We’ve been married a little longer than you guys.

Ashley (26:51):

I know.

Ann:

It really affects your marriage relationship and your legacy.

Dave Willis (26:55):

Sure it does.

Ann (26:56):

That’s sad to me.

Dave Willis:

It was sad to me, yeah.

Ashley (27:01):

It is.

Dave Wilson (27:02):

Yeah, I, believe it or not, right now, play on a softball team.

Ashley (27:06):

Awesome.

Dave Wilson (27:07):

It may be called senior softball.

Dave Willis:

Seasoned, seasoned softball.

Dave Wilson:

Seasoned, there you go. I like that. You should see us run. It’s ugly, but it’s none of these guys are church guys. They call me “The rabbi.”

Ashley:

Oh, wow.

Dave Wilson:

Which is hilarious because they don’t even know they’re right.

Ann:

They don’t even know that that’s—

Dave Wilson:

They’re like, “Hey, rabbi;” it’s just funny. But it’s a normal conversation for these guys to talk about the porn they looked at this weekend. I mean, it’s just wow. And they don’t even blink at that. I’m sitting right there and I’m in there, “Hey, guys,” not that you can’t talk about this. It was like, “Do you understand what you’re doing to women?” And they just laugh. “What? Women, that’s what they want.” Oh my goodness. And they’re all married. I love these guys. I’m there. I want to be the light of Jesus in this world. But that’s how normal it is. And you wrote this in 19, and it’s even gotten worse.

Ashley (28:02):

Oh yeah.

Ann (28:02):

Ashley, what have those conversations been like with your boys about this topic? Because with a mom, it’s like we wonder, “Do I have those conversations with our sons? Dave’s having those, do I chime in too of what it makes me feel as a woman?” What’s that been like?

Ashley (28:19):

At first, I had those questions, “Should I just let Dave do the talking in this area?” He had the background with porn, and it’d be like man to man. And I don’t know, as we’ve kind of navigated it through the years, I’ve gotten more comfortable. And Dave actually was like, “Sweetie, I think they need to hear from you as a woman and how that made you feel, and how if a man’s staring you down and looking at you sexually, how does that make you feel? The dude in the grocery store or whatever or things like that and just talking to the boys about it.”

So I have. I’ve been like, “Listen, you need to watch where your eyes go.” I talk a lot about that. I know as of right now, we have an 18-year-old and 20-year-old, and I know those hormones are raging, and I’m like, “You got to get a grip on this, and it’s up to you, and God will give you the ability to do that, but you have to be mindful of where your eyes are going and you can’t just follow the crowd and get wrapped up in all of this.”

(29:14):

And so I’ve been able to talk to them from that perspective. And I do. We have one son who has a girlfriend right now. And a lot of times I’ll be like, “How are you showing respect to your girlfriend?” And just talking through what that looks like. And really, it’s been really neat to have that open conversation. And I would say a lot of times they’ll ask me questions now because we’ve had those conversations. So they’ll come to me and say like, “Mom, what do you think about this?” And just we talk through it pretty openly. I mean, I think that, like Dave said, with the work we do, we might be more open than the next person just because we talk about this all the time. But I do think that as parents, we do have a responsibility to open up the conversation. It might even start off very awkward.

(29:56):

I mean, I know ours really did, but we’re really cultivating a safe place. We’re reminding our kids, “Hey, the world’s going to tell you a lot of things, but we need you to come to us and you can come to us and we’re going to give you the best answer we can. And it’s going to be based on biblical truth. And we’re going to tell you too, where we feel like we’ve done this right and where we’ve really gone wrong and what we’ve learned.” And thankfully they do bring us some questions. There’s been times where I have to, Dave has to grab my arms to wipe the shock off my face.

Dave Willis (30:25):

Yeah.

Ashley:

“What?!”

Dave Willis:

Just be shocked later, not right now.

Ashley:

And he’s like, “This is what we want.”

Dave Willis:

Be curious. Yeah.

Dave Wilson (30:32):

We meet a ton of couples who say FamilyLife helped them when they need it the most. And that’s what being a FamilyLife Partner is all about, helping others find that same encouragement and tools that you found right here.

Ann (30:44):

And we’d love for you to join us. So click the donate button at FamilyLifeToday.com and become a Partner today.

Dave Wilson (30:51):

Do it. I don’t know, that might’ve been a one.

Ann (30:53):

You did a really good one.

Dave Wilson:

That might’ve been a one taker.

Ashley (30:57):

You want to talk about the bus?

Dave Willis (30:58):

Yeah. I think—

Ashley:

This was a memorable one.

Dave Willis:

—this is early in the book. One of our son’s first day of eighth grade came home and he was like, “Hey, is it normal? Do girls really like it when guys text pictures of their private parts to him?” And were like—

Ashley (31:12):

What?!

Ann:

This is eighth grade?

Ashley:

Eighth grade.

Dave Willis (31:15):

He was like, “Yeah, these boys on the bus, they were taking pictures of their private parts and then trying to show people and laughing and texting and saying, ‘Girls love getting pictures like this.’” And he was like; I could tell he was really confused and troubled by it.

Ann (31:28):

I love that he came to you.

Dave Willis (31:31):

He came to us, yeah. I’m so glad he did, and Ashley, I think her instinct was “Who are these kids?”

Ashley (31:35):

“Who are these kids?”

Dave Willis (31:37):

We’re going to arrest them.

Ashley (31:37):

I’m just shocked. You just don’t expect it in eighth grade.

Ann:

I’d be right with you.

Dave Willis (31:43):

I just said, “Man, thank you. Thank you for trusting us with this.” And I said, “First off, no, it’s not good. In fact, it’s illegal for underage people to be taking those pictures or receiving those pictures or anybody to receive pictures of an underage person. So first off, it’s illegal.”

Ann (32:01):

Oh, that’s good. I like that you said it’s illegal because that puts fear into our children.

Ashley:

For sure.

Dave Willis (32:04):

It’s considered child pornography. And we talked about all that. I said, “But it’s wrong.” And we talked about why it’s wrong and how it’s disrespectful. It’s violating all of those things, and we’re able to unpack it. And he listened and he goes, “Yeah, that’s what I was thinking. I thought it was pretty weird, but I was just making sure.” And he just went on with his day like video games. But being able to, and then we’re looking at each other like “Oh my gosh, what’s happening?” But not freaking out in front of your kids is huge.

Ann (32:39):

I like you putting your hand up.

Ashley:

He really was so good about it.

Dave Willis (32:44):

There’s been a lot of these moments.

Ann:

Actually, that is me.

Ashley (32:45):

It’s that mama bear.

Dave Willis (32:46):

Yeah, she calms me down a lot. But with this kind of stuff, I’m usually the one like, “We’ll freak out later. Now is not the time.”

Ann (32:53):

Yes. Our oldest son at one point was listening to this music. I am like—you guys, I can get so hot—”What?!”

Dave Wilson:

It’s fun when she gets hot.

Ann:

—is this like music from Satan? You’re not playing this music in my house.” And Dave just kind of like—then he pulls the CD out of the trash can. He’s like, “Hey, so what are you—tell me about this music.” I just have to go in the other room and cool off a little bit.

Dave Willis (33:17):

Yeah, yeah.

Ashley (33:17):

Yes. I’ve been there many times.

Dave Willis (33:22):

That’s right, yeah.

Dave Wilson (33:22):

But obviously you’ve created a safe net where they feel like they can bring up that kind of stuff. A lot of homes would be like, “No way I could ever talk to mom and dad about this.” So I mean, obviously it’s in what you talked about with FamilyLife.com/SexTalk. How do you have this talk with your kids? How did you develop an environment in your home where they felt safe to bring this kind of stuff up? Is this something you started talking about since they were little boys?

Dave Willis (33:49):

We did, and I think we realized early, this is something we cannot outsource.

(33:56):

Because the world would love you to outsource these conversations and just send them to the internet or send them to somebody else or let the friends at school fill in the gaps and they’re going to get so many wrong messages that way. I’m like, we signed up to be parents. This was one of those key responsibilities that we have to instill these core values about respect, about God’s plan for sex. And it can be uncomfortable sometimes, man, these are some of the most important conversations we’ll ever have. And if you’re listening to this and you feel not equipped, you feel like, oh my goodness, because of my own past, or I don’t want those things to come up or to answer hard questions. Your kids aren’t expecting you to be perfect, but they need you to be present. They need you to be honest and to just guide them, guide them through this, with what you did right, with what you did wrong. There’s so much at stake, and you’ve got this, you’re the most qualified person on earth to have these conversations with your children.

Ashley (34:53):

And in the resource How to Talk to Your Kids About Sex, we really talk through it. We have a parental video for parents only before they watch the video with their child. But then the most important part of all this is the conversation they will have after watching that video with their child.

Ann (35:07):

So they’re watching the video together.

Ashley (35:09):

Yes.

(35:10):

And that way the child can ask questions or not, or the parent can pose questions or say, “Hey, was something unclear? Do you want to ask me a question about this? Because I know sometimes this can be really nerve wracking. And I know when I was your age, this was an awkward conversation with my parents,” or “My parents didn’t know how to talk to me about this.” And that was really my experience. I have wonderful parents, but they didn’t know how to talk to me about this. And I really think it went back to their own past. They didn’t know how to address that or how to share it with me, or if I would ask questions that they didn’t know how to answer. And so I remember going into marriage, and we did get married young, so maybe my poor parents didn’t have enough time to gather their thoughts, but it wasn’t talked about really.

(35:51):

It was just shut down. And I remember when we were, we had young children, we knew someday we’d have to have these talks with them. We wanted to do it differently and really get ahead of it because the truth is younger and younger kids are being exposed to mixed messages about sex. And I think a lot of parents, we want to live in denial and think, “Well, not my baby.” He or she’s not going to be exposed at their school. It’s a good school. And there’s not going to be a kid with a cell phone showing them an image. And I just want to burst that bubble and say, tragically, it’s everywhere. I mean, I’ve taught in a Christian school, and I’ve taught in a public school, and I can tell you kids are kids everywhere. And the only difference was in a Christian school I could actually talk to them and pray with them.

(36:31):

But other than that, they’re kids and kids are curious. And we want to get ahead of that curiosity and really talk to them about how sex is a powerful gift from God and how they have license over the bodies that God gave them. And so therefore, they have boundaries they need to put in place with people, and they need to respect other people’s boundaries. And we just wanted to help parents with this resource to have these conversations and to not feel like they’re their parents. And with that, God gave you that authority to be their teacher and to get equipped and be able to answer those hard questions.

Ann (37:04):

I love that you guys are doing the heavy lifting of it too, because they’re watching it. You guys are saying a bunch of this great stuff and it’s just, it’s an on-ramp to a conversation.

Ashley (37:14):

Yes. It’s an on ramp. Yes.

Ann (37:15):

And I think that’s really needed for us. Like, oh, okay, they’re going to talk about it and then I’m just going to, we’re walk together through it. I think it’s so needed. I love it. I love that you guys are doing this.

Dave Willis (37:27):

Thank you. We try to create what we wish we would’ve had.

Ann (37:30):

Yes.

Dave Willis (37:30):

We had some tools that helped. Some of those were from FamilyLife.

Ashley (37:35):

Were from FamilyLife, for sure.

Dave Willis (37:36):

And we’re thankful for that. But it’s like, what do we wish we would’ve had? And that’s what we tried to create with the team here.

Ann (37:44):

And it’s a different day.

Dave Willis (37:45):

Yeah, it’s a different day. The challenges are different. The temptations are different. The questions are different. The core principles are always going to be the same about sex, but I’m really excited about this resource. I really do hope that it brings parents and kids closer together with each other, creates some bonding moments and also takes away some of the fear around these talks and equips the next generation with some tools that are going to help them walk the beautiful path God has for them.

Dave Wilson (38:13):

And I mean, obviously, it’s one of the best ways you can respect each other. Your book is about boys respecting, men respecting their women.

(38:23):

One of the most, I think, fascinating—and you have a chapter on it—studies I ever did way back was how Jesus was the model in that culture of elevating and respecting women. I remember when I was studying this and getting a grip on it as sort of a seminary student, there was a TV show—you guys are too young to remember—that was really popular called LA Law.

Ashley (38:46):

Oh, I know LA Law. Yes. I totally remember that.

Dave Wilson (38:47):

We were into it. We were living in California at the time, so we thought we were LA people.

Ashley (38:52):

Yes.

Dave Wilson (38:52):

But there was an actress, I don’t know what her name was; she was popular on the show, but there was a quote that came out around that time from her about Jesus. And again, I could look it up and tell you her name, but she said this, “I’m not a Christian because of what Jesus did to women. I’m not going to follow a man that did what he did to women,” and I wanted to call her to go, “You have no idea how he elevated women.”

Dave Willis:

Oh my gosh, more so than anybody in history.

Ann:

Anybody in that culture probably.

Dave Wilson:

So explain that a little bit. Well, how did Jesus—

Dave Willis (39:24):

I’m so glad you brought that up, Dave. It’s my favorite chapter in the book.

Ashley (39:28):

Mine too. I love it.

Dave Wilson:

It is?

Dave Willis (39:29):

It is because Jesus is our role model for all things, but I don’t think, we always think of Him as being the role model for how men should respect women. And He set the bar so high, the way He valued women, the way He made women the heroes in stories that He told.

Dave Wilson (39:46):

Which was never—

Dave Willis (39:48):

The way He honored them in His conversations, the way He sought them out and brought them into the ministry and allowed them to lead and serve and use their God-given gifts, and the way He took time to meet their needs, the way He allowed them to participate in meeting the needs of the ministry. There were women that were financial contributors as well, to helping the ministry go forward. And I mean, it was radically counter-cultural in that day, in that time, in that place, the way that Jesus elevated women that we might look at today and say, “Yeah, well, that’s the way that it should be.” But back then, nobody was doing this.

Ann:

Nobody.

Dave Willis:

I mean, He was revolutionary, of course, in so many ways but what we don’t talk about enough is how revolutionary He was in elevating and respecting women.

Dave Wilson (40:38):

So as a boy, as a man, we have to follow Jesus, right?

Dave Willis:

Absolutely.

Dave Wilson:

That’s the model.

Ann (40:44):

I mean, I think of John 4 of the woman at the well, the Samaritan woman, how many things that He did in that Jewish culture that would’ve never been done. One, that He would talk to a Samaritan woman as a rabbi. That He would touch something asking her for a drink, which means she would’ve touched it, which means He would’ve touched it, which you’re not allowed to do that. I was on a flight to Israel with some Orthodox Jewish men, and they couldn’t sit in the seat beside one of our women,

Ashley (41:15):

Really?

Ann (41:15):

And so he had to get the flight attendant, they had to move. There were so many different things that they were obeying the custom of their faith. And I’m imagining Jesus having this conversation with this woman alone, even talking to her and initiating the conversation. It’s like all the rules are broken, but He sees her.

Dave Willis (41:38):

He sees her, yeah.

Ann (41:38):

And in the midst of seeing her, respects her and gives her dignity. And talk about a woman that was walking with shame, and He elevates. It’s phenomenal of how counter cultural He was and still is in so many ways.

Dave Willis:

And still is.

Ashley (41:54):

Right. I love that. It’s one of my favorite stories.

Ann:

Me too.

Dave Wilson (41:57):

So as we sort of bring this to a close is there like, if you think—and I know it’s now, it’s 2025. We’re six years removed from when this was published—top three. If you can come up with three, maybe there’s 10 ways for men to respect women, boys to respect girls. What are the top ones that come to your mind?

Ann (42:19):

We should do two and two.

Dave Willis (42:21):

Two and two.

Dave Wilson (42:22):

Two and two.

Dave Willis:

All right. Yeah.

Ann (42:24):

We’ll see if there’s—

Dave Willis (42:25):

I’ll try to give two that are just—I don’t know, a top two, but just two that are good. So I think one, one of the things in the research for this book that really stood out to me is how much more often women are interrupted than men, just in conversation. And I mean, I talk fast and just in general, I’ve tried to be less of an interrupter, but for men and women, I’ve been an interrupter and I’m sorry, probably even in this interview, forgive me.

Ashley (43:06):

Of course.

Ann:

It’s funny. I’ve always—is this what you’re going to say?

Dave Wilson (43:08):

I don’t know what you’re going to say. How would I know—

Ann (43:10):

I was going to say—

Dave Wilson (43:10):

—what you’re going to say?

Ann (43:11):

I notice that if—

Dave Wilson (43:13):

When you’re on stage—

Ann (43:14):

Or even here, if you guys interrupt each other, you’re like, “Oh, I’m really sorry.” That has always stuck out to me. You’ve always done it. Both of you do that.

Dave Wilson (43:21):

I’ve noticed videos I’ve seen online where you’re teaching at a marriage conference, you let Ashley talk and you don’t interrupt. There are times I cut her off. She’ll say something, I’m like— Dave is really respecting her. It’s her moment. And you can tell by the way you’re looking at her. You’re like, “This is really good.”

Dave Willis:

This is good.

Dave Wilson:

It’s just like she’s talking—

Dave Willis (43:43):

I got a front row seat to some gold here.

Dave Wilson (43:46):

But that’s respect. It’s modeled the way you treat one another.

Dave Willis (43:49):

Well thank you. We try and try to teach that to our boys; that you don’t interrupt, value what women have to say and give them the floor. And so that’s one. What’s one that you have.

Ashley (44:04):

I know I keep coming back to it, but I would say the eyes. The eyes are so important, where your eyes go. I think a husband will build so much security and trust in his wife if he can just divert his eyes. I mean, again, you can notice something but diverting your eyes and you do that for me. We try to teach our boys to do the same thing. And I just know, and it doesn’t go unseen. And I appreciate that. Whether it’s a TV show, something—on a lot of shows these days, it could be the number one show on Netflix. You start watching it and all of a sudden something crazy, a huge sex scene goes on. And we’ll immediately fast forward or just turn it off. And that’s also diverting your eyes. And I feel like, and this is in the open places, and even more so in the secret places, just not even letting the enemy get a foothold I think is so important. But a lot of it starts right there in the eyes. And then it’s what you allow yourself to think about because that’s how you lust.

Ann:

That’s good.

Dave Wilson (44:56):

Do you know the name Steve Ferrar? You know that name?

Dave Willis:

I don’t think so.

Dave Wilson:

Steve was on our FamilyLife speaker, Weekend to Remember speaker team, so right when we joined. We’re much younger than him. So he wrote a book called Point Man, and he had a military background, was a guy who leads a platoon into it’s called point man. So he’s like, you’re the point man in your family. It’s a great book about manhood. Just an amazing guy. And I’ll never forget a story he tells in the book—this is 30 some years ago—where he just says they were sitting at a stoplight and he’s with his teenage son and a girl walks across to go to the other side, and his son turns to his dad and goes, “Dad, you never look.” He goes, “What?” He goes, “I’ve watched you my whole life. Women walk by. That girl was very pretty. She wasn’t dressed. You never look.” And Steve says, “I turned to him and said, ‘Yeah, there’s times I have.’” But his point is they’re watching.

Ashley (45:51):

They are.

Dave Wilson (45:52):

They’re watching every second. And what he was saying to you, his dad was, “You respect women and I’m watching and I’m learning how to be a man.”

Dave Willis (46:00):

That’s the most powerful lesson more than anything we’ll say, is just what we’re doing as parents and as dads in this case. That’s what they’re watching so let’s make sure we’re respecting women.

Dave Wilson (46:10):

Our eyes, our words—

Ashley (46:12):

Words, yes.

Dave Wilson (46:13):

—our body. I mean, porn is the ultimate disrespect of women.

Dave Willis:

Absolutely.

Dave Wilson:

It’s just like that is a signal to the world. They don’t matter. They’re just property. Right? I mean, yeah, it is something we have to model.

Ann (46:28):

Any other ones that come to your minds right off the top?

Ashley (46:30):

Well, he mentioned words. I would say it’s not just how you talk to your spouse, which is extremely important, not just for your spouse, but for your kids if you have children in the home, but also how you talk about women.

(46:41):

We know people, and it shows in their marriage too, but they just have a derogatory view of women. And it probably goes back to how they were raised. And they don’t even realize it. If you’re a fish in water, you don’t know what it’s like to be out of the water until you are, and you’re like, “Oh, there’s another—we can exist another way.” And so I think it’s just taking, really praying and saying, “Lord, reveal to me any blind spots I have and how I view women and help me to heal from that.” Because I think that if you have this negative view of women, all women are X, Y, Z, or “Oh, I’m looking because she’s putting it out there.” I’ve heard that before.

(47:16):

“Well, I’m looking only because she’s showing her midriff, so she wants me to look.” All these excuses, these lies we believe that we make excuses in our life, but we really, I think what it comes down to is just a really negative view of women. And I think taking those thoughts captive and really just thinking more positively, but also more respectfully about women, because then that’s how you’re going to speak about them. And really thinking about, how do I speak about women in my home? Is it always talking something negative about this woman at work, or the neighbor who’s a woman or about your wife when your wife isn’t around? I mean, really think about that because it not only has an effect on the people around you; it perpetuates your next thought. If you’re always thinking negatively and always speaking negatively and disrespectfully, then that’s all you’re going to do.

Ann (48:03):

I would piggyback on that and say the words that Dave says about me in front of our boys, I think it’s one of his greatest gifts. He’s constantly complimenting me.

Ashley:

That’s awesome.

Dave Wilson (48:15):

You’re easy to compliment.

Ann (48:16):

No, you are so good at it. And I’ve watched our sons model that with their wives. I know that it’s because you have always been my biggest cheerleader, like, “Oh, your mom’s amazing. You should have seen your mom do that back in the day.” And I’m like, “Man, you are so nice to me.”

Ashley (48:33):

I love that.

Ann (48:33):

And it’s such a sweet gift, and it’s such a great model for our kids to hear us complimenting our spouse.

Dave Willis (48:40):

That’s so good.

Ann (48:42):

Both ways.

Dave Wilson (48:43):

The one, I’ll footnote your footnote or whatever you just said.

Ann (48:48):

Piggyback.

Dave Wilson (48:49):

Piggyback. You’re piggyback. One of the ways I think I disrespected Ann and men can do this, and it can go either way, is I would be harsh in my tone.

Ashley (49:01):

Oh, tone.

Dave Wilson (49:02):

Even sometimes it’s saying the right thing, but it’s sort of with a know-it-all attitude. It’s a roll of the eyes like “That was stupid. You’re stupid.” And she would say, I remember one time she said, “I am not stupid.” I’m like, “I didn’t say you’re stupid.”

Dave Willis:

Yeah. Your eye roll said.

Dave Wilson:

That is so disrespect.

Dave Willis:

Absolutely.

Dave Wilson:

And I didn’t realize I had it. You want to hear a funny story, which we put in our Vertical Marriage small group deal. But she tried to tell me that I was that way. “You’re harsh at times.” It was so a blind spot. I’d be like, “I’m not harsh.” And she’s like Exhibit A, the way you said. And we’re at her parents and with the kids when they were little. They all had boys. All her siblings had boys. We had 12 grandsons.

Ann:

No granddaughters.

Dave Wilson:

And so they’re all over the place. And I’ve got this little camcorder, back in the VCR days, I’m filming this thing. And later the parents came in, and everybody comes in. We’re going to watch this video I made and at the end of the video, and everybody’s watching this—

Ann (50:02):

When you were filming it?

Dave Wilson (50:03):

Yeah. And now we’re watching it. I go up, you can see it on the camera. I go up to turn it off and I thought I turned it off, but I didn’t so you see me do this. I come back and we get into it, and my harshness is right there.

Ashley (50:15):

Oh wow.

Dave Wilson:

It’s on the video.

Ann (50:16):

My whole family is in the room, and my mom and dad are like, “Oh my”—

Dave Wilson (50:21):

Her brothers are like, “Dude.” I’m running up there like stop right there. And I’m like, “There it is. Everything she’s tried to tell me I was—

Dave Willis:

You said he hadn’t seen it.

Ashley:

It’s like a mirror.

Dave Wilson:

I saw it. I’m like, “I’m an idiot. I am a jerk. I am a know-it-all punk.” That’s what I was.

Dave Willis (50:33):

Most of us don’t know. I mean, Ashley, you said to me before, sometimes you don’t know. I’m not meaning—

Ashley:

How you’re coming off.

Dave Willis:

—but your tone, not just to her, but just in general, I’ll get going about something. And she was like, “You seem like so”—I’m like, “I’m not angry. I’m just”—

Ann (50:53):

Passionate.

Dave Willis (50:54):

Yes. She goes like, “Well,” she’s very general, but she’ll say, “You don’t know how you’re coming across. You’re not seeing it.” I am not seeing the VHS tape of myself or if I saw it, I’d be like, “I look like an idiot.” And so you got to trust your spouse when they point out those blind spots.

Ann (51:09):

Well it’s funny too because Dave, this was a battle for I remember four months trying to say “It’s that. When you say that or you give me that look, it just shuts my spirit down,” and he’s like rolling his eyes again.

Dave Wilson (51:21):

Which is disrespect.

Ann (51:24):

And I remember I couldn’t figure out how to communicate it, but you know what I do remember doing is praying like, “Lord, he can’t see it. If this isn’t a deal, then I just need to stop being so sensitive. But Lord, if I could communicate it and you can help me to figure out how to communicate it, I think that would be really helpful.” And so I’m watching him. I’m like, “This is God.”

Ashley:

God made a way.

Dave Willis (51:50):

God’s like, “I got this, Ann.”

Ann:

I got you, girl. VHS.

Dave Willis:

Video evidence, VHS for the win.

Dave Wilson (51:57):

I don’t like that prayer.

Ashley:

No, I know.

Dave Wilson:

But it definitely helped. Well, let me say this, just as we wrap up, go to Family

life.com/SexTalk to get the video course from you guys. We’re so glad you guys did that for FamilyLife.

Ann (52:13):

This is a gift to FamilyLife.

Dave Wilson (52:14):

What a blessing that’s going to be for people. It’s really going to help and obviously share this podcast and this YouTube, whatever you watch. This is a great conversation for men and boys to understand how to respect women. And it’s really both ways.

Dave Willis:

Absolutely.

Ashley:

Yes, it goes both ways, absolutely.

Ann (52:29):

And for women to listen to even know how to communicate. And maybe you listen to it as a woman and think, “Oh, we need to talk about this as a couple so that we can be on the same page with our kids, with our sons.”

Dave Wilson (52:39):

I didn’t mention we’ll also have the book there. Well actually with the books at FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the show notes and get it. I mean, this thing, it’s going to become a bestseller after this conversation. Again.

Ann (52:53):

Hey, thanks for watching and if you liked this episode—

Dave Wilson (52:56):

You better like it.

Ann (52:57):

—just hit that like button.

Dave Wilson (52:58):

And we’d like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe—I can’t say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don’t think I can say this word.

Ann:

Like and subscribe.

Dave Wilson:

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.

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