Good News at Rock Bottom – Ray Ortlund

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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Good News at Rock Bottom

Guests:Ray and Jani Ortlund

Release Date:December 25, 2025

Ray (00:00):

Is the truth of my existence, that God hates my guts. That would explain everything. But I discovered Jesus at a deeper level at rock bottom.

Jani (00:11):

God changed him at rock bottom.

Ray (00:13):

So there’s good news at rock bottom and really, I don’t know where else we’re going to find it.

Dave (00:21):

So we’ve got Ray and you what’s even better? We got Jani Orland back.

Ray:

So much better.

Ann (00:27):

It’s always good to have both.

Dave (00:29):

Ray, do you feel this? Because whenever Ann and I do anything, I know the audience is thinking “Dave’s okay, but Ann is awesome!”

Ray:

I know.

Dave:

“I’m so glad she’s here.” You got to feel the same thing.

Ray (00:40):

Yeah. Jani just keeps me moving along with her because she’s merciful. I’ll tell you what, Jani is—I said it to her this morning when we were on her way over here. She’s the secret weapon here because she has an authenticity and a profound—here’s something about Jani. Jani loves with a whole heart. She doesn’t hold back. She’s not calculating, 51-49 transactional kind of thing. And that is Jani’s superpower and it’s irresistible.

Ann (01:22):

I see that in her.

Ray (01:23):

Yeah, you’re amazing, honey.

Jani (01:25):

Now you promised me we could cut things from this program that I didn’t like.

Dave (01:28):

We’re not cutting that.

Jani (01:31):

Oh dear.

Dave (01:32):

I’m married to almost the same woman. She’s the same way. We’ll be in airports and she sees somebody and walk over and just say, “You look amazing. Do you know you’re amazing?” I’m like, “What are you doing?” And you see this person’s face light up. It’s like nobody’s said that to them in a year. She just sees something in the image of God in them and calls it out.

Ann (01:52):

But Ray, I will say this, we had you on. You had a book on pornography, what was it called?

Ray (01:58):

The Death of Porn?

Dave:

Yeah.

Ann (01:59):

The Death of Porn.

Ray (02:00):

Yeah.

Ann (02:01):

That impacted me so much. The book was so good, but the thing that impacted me so much when we interviewed you, we brought another guest on that happened to be there that day, and I’ll never forget you.

Dave (02:13):

He was a pastor that you knew, I can’t remember his name.

Ann:

And he had struggled with porn.

Dave:

Bruce, Bruce, who was that?

Bruce:

Garrett Kell.

Dave:

Yeah, Garrett Kell.

Ann (02:19):

But you looked at him and your words of life—

Dave (02:23):

Well, first of all, you said, “I don’t want to do this interview without Garrett. Bring Garrett in here.” We’re like, “What? We already talked to Garrett.” “No, no. Bring him in.” So he sat in the studio with us and then you blessed him.

Ann (02:34):

—with your words, and I see you do this all the time with people and you said, “You are a magnificent man.” I just wept as you said it because I thought “We don’t hear that from men speaking life into men,” and having three sons that impacted me and I thought, “We need to do that more.” All of us, not just Dave and I, all of us need to speak life into people.

Dave (03:01):

You inspired her to write a book.

Ray:

Wow.

Dave:

Her last book is How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All you want to Do is Yell at Him.

Ann:

That is actually the book.

Dave:

I think she was inspired by you, Ray.

Jani (03:13):

That’s great, Ann.

Ann:

But today we’re talking about a different book.

Dave (03:18):

I’m going to read a quote from this book and we’ll tell the—

Ann (03:21):

—the title in a minute.

Dave (03:21):

—the title in a minute. But you open up and I mean I thought, “I don’t think I’ve ever read this in a book.” It’s so honest. It said, “You don’t need to go looking for it. Sooner or later it comes and finds you. Something horrible, some experience unforeseeable and even unimaginable and the reality you always understood to be your life, suddenly that life is gone for good. There are many ways to hit rock bottom, but everyone goes there.” That’s not how you write books and sell books. People don’t want to hear that. They’re like, no, I don’t want to hear about rock bottom. I don’t want to hear about the mountaintop. But when I read that, I’m like, that is so accurate and true.

Ray (04:06):

Well we wish it weren’t true, right?

Dave (04:08):

Yeah.

Ann:

You think everybody really does.

Ray (04:10):

Oh, absolutely.

Jani (04:11):

Do you know anyone who hasn’t?

Ann (04:15):

No.

Jani (04:15):

Know them up close, not just from a distance, their stage presence, but up close.

Ann (04:21):

No, I don’t. If you’ve lived long enough, you have hit rock bottom

Ray (04:25):

In this world with people made of the stuff we’re made of rock bottom is inevitable. And what surprises me—this is another thing I didn’t see coming—is that the Bible addresses us right there. The Bible is the most realistic book in the world. This is not starry-eyed idealism between these two covers.

Dave (04:48):

Right.

Ray (04:48):

This is a book for people who have hit rock bottom and are wondering, “Is my life over even though my heart is still beating?” We’re the people God wants to have a conversation with and He’s not going to chew us out. He wants to give us hope.

Dave (05:02):

Yeah, the book title is Good News at Rock Bottom: Finding God When the Pain Goes Deep and Hope Seems Lost. That’s a lot of people.

Ann (05:13):

Oh.

Ray:

Yeah.

Dave (05:15):

Yeah, and it’s so honest.

Ann (05:16):

I’m thinking of my mom and dad. They were married 72 years, and they had a pretty amazing life, but then my sister died and so yeah, that was rock bottom. And so I’m thinking of our best friends. They’ve had a pretty incredible, wonderful life, but he’s sick right now. He has cancer, so we all face it. I think this book, as you said, every single person could relate to or could read this book and really get something out of it.

Dave (05:50):

So how do we find God at rock bottom?

Ray (05:54):

Well, there’s a verse in Isaiah that I kind of riff off of. This is one of my favorite verses in the Bible. I mean, check this out. “For thus says the One who is high and lifted up, who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy.” So God is way out there. “I dwell in the high and holy place, and also with him who is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.” So God has two addresses: way up high where we can’t go and way down low where we can go. But God doesn’t dwell in what I call the mushy middle, which is where most people want to live. We’re from Nashville and U-Hauls are just lining up. Everybody’s moving to Nashville because job opportunities are there. A lot of talent is there, the health industry, the music industry, universities and so forth, and it really is a great city.

Ann (07:10):

And that’s where you guys live—

Ray (07:11):

Yeah.

Jani:

Yes.

Ann (07:12):

—and pastor.

Ray (07:14):

Right, and churches, even churches can cater to the mushy middle.

(07:21):

So if my life, let’s say my life is on a scale of one to ten. Let’s say it’s six, but I really want to upgrade it to seven or eight, maybe even more. What am I going to do? I’m going to arrange my reality. I’m going to get a career track that’s going to take me from six to seven. I’m going to live in a neighborhood. I’m going to go to a church and so forth. So I build this reality inside the mushy middle that’s going to help me idealize my mushy middle designer life. There’s only one problem with that MO, for living life, navigating reality. The problem is God doesn’t dwell there.

Ann (08:06):

Well, He’s everywhere.

Ray (08:07):

He is everywhere but He’s not present in the same way everywhere. God is harder to find in the mushy middle, easy to find at rock bottom and easy to find way up in the high and holy place. So what, I didn’t even realize this. I didn’t have a category for this until my mushy middle life hit rock bottom. I had to rethink everything from the foundations, deepest foundations. I’d always thought, “Yeah, God loves me, cool.” My parents taught me that. My Sunday school teachers taught me that. Jani and I have believed that. And then some things happened—I don’t need to go into—but for the first time in my life I felt conscience bound to ask a new question, have I been wrong?

(09:01):

Is the truth of my existence that God hates my guts?

(09:05):

That would explain everything.

Dave (09:09):

Yeah, yeah.

Ray (09:09):

So I’m thinking Berlin in 1945 just smoking, bombed out rubble. There’s my life. If God hates me, that explains it. But eventually I figured out, no, I was right the first time. God really does love me.

Ann (09:27):

I’m glad you came to that conclusion.

Ray (09:28):

And guys, I didn’t get myself from that despair to now I actually feel loved by God. I didn’t get myself from there to here. I didn’t think my way from there to here. I didn’t theologize my way from there to here. God didn’t let me go. Jani didn’t let me go. And at rock bottom, I discovered He is there, and you know who else is down there at rock bottom? Not only is Jesus there; the best people in all the world are down there at rock bottom.

Dave (10:07):

Hey, before we get back to the episode, let me take a moment to remind you that those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength. That’s a promise from God. And we’ve seen it time and time again this year at FamilyLife. When families face challenges or marriage are tested and hope feels hard, God’s promise remains true. FamilyLife exists to bring the hope of Jesus to families everywhere. But we need your partnership and support to do it. And as a year comes to a close, you have the opportunity to help us give that hope to families everywhere. You want to do that, just visit FamilyLifeToday.com or you can give us a call at 1-800-FL-TODAY to learn more and to give. We’d be honored to have you in our corner.

Ray (10:57):

Dave, you’ve described some of the hardships that you’ve been through. Now when you talk about that, something inside me moves toward you. I’m thinking “He gets it. This man is an ally. He’s not out for himself. He’s one of us.”

Ann:

He’s been there.

Ray:

He’s been there. And so I discovered Jesus at a deeper level at rock bottom. I found a whole bunch of awesome new friends at rock bottom and that experience brought to me hope.

(11:49):

And even a kind of defiant hope.

Ann:

What do you mean by that?

Ray (11:58):

I looked back at my mushy middle life and thank you for pressing me with that question because that—

Dave:

I don’t like it when she presses me with that question. I’m glad you like it.

Ray:

It’s sort of like I taunted that me. It’s like I just don’t believe you anymore. The me I used to be. I don’t want you anymore. I’m done with you. I like this new me down here with these awesome people and with Jesus right in the center of it all. I am really digging this. I love this. I don’t want to be anywhere else. So I’m not at the same level of intense crisis personally right now that I was when I hit rock bottom. But I identify with it permanently and—

Ann (12:53):

You don’t want to lose what you found at the bottom.

Ray (12:55):

Oh never. Oh, I wouldn’t go back to the mushy middle for all the money in the world.

Ann (12:59):

Yeah.

Jani (12:59):

God changed him at rock bottom.

Dave (13:02):

Yeah.

Jani (13:03):

You mentioned earlier what an encouragement he is.

(13:07):

He knows how to encourage those at rock bottom because he’s walked there himself. God revived him there. I think your verse talks about and to revive the heart of the contrite. So I’ve seen in his own life what a good thing God did at rock bottom.

Dave (13:28):

Now it makes me think of—you’re a pastor. I’m a pastor—growing up around the church, we talked earlier, my mom sort of took me to church. She believed in that God. I never saw rock bottom at church. All you saw at church were people that had it all together. I always felt like we are really misfits here. I don’t have a dad. Everybody else has a dad. They’re all smiling. I’m sort of angry and down. I never saw that or experienced that because everybody covered it up. Now I know, they all had it. They were all living rock bottom lives.

(14:02):

They just covered it up. And so when I started a church, I remember that was one of my first goals is like we will be a place where rock bottom is talked about and you don’t have to put on masks. I remember I said I wanted to put a thing on the front of our church, “No mask allowed.” Of course when COVID hit, I’m not talking about that kind of mask, but it was funny when it happened. I’m like, “This is a church with no masks. Like “Well, you sort of have to right now,” but let’s be honest and real. There’s victory. And what you said earlier is when people are struggling, you lean toward them. You don’t lean away.

Ann:

It’s true.

Dave:

I think that’s what draws us to Jesus. Yes, his resurrection and his victory. But we can relate to a man who suffered horribly and we’re like, “I’m drawn to that man.”

Ann:

—misunderstood, betrayed—

Ray (14:44):

Humiliated.

Dave (14:46):

So talk about that in terms of community. Is that what the church should be? By the way, that’s what family ministry and marriage ministry that we are a part of should be as well. I can understand and connect with that ministry because they understand rock bottom.

Ann (15:01):

I want to ask Jani this before we—

Dave (15:02):

Oh, well, I got to hear this answer. See what she just did. She just took—

Ann (15:04):

I wanted to do it before. Okay—

Ray (15:08):

Well I don’t want to settle your fight, so you work it out, but get back to me.

Ann (15:09):

I’ll get to it. I’ll write it down, so I won’t forget it.

Ray (15:16):

Okay.

Ann (15:16):

Do you remember what you asked about the church?

Ray (15:19):

Yeah, it’s in this verse, Dave, Isaiah 57:15, “to revive the spirit of the lowly, and to revive the heart of the contrite.” Contrite means crushed and broken, and those words are plural in the Hebrew text, the original text. It’s talking about a whole group of people. So I love what you just said about the church that you planted. We made that same purpose at Immanuel. We cherished and revered that same purpose.

(15:50):

We want this church to be in the best sense, a safe place where people can talk about what’s really going on and how they’re not doing well instead of polishing up. If church is just for polishing up our outward appearance, I’m done. I have no time for that.

Ann:

Yeah, us too.

Ray:

If church is for people with needs and people with questions and people with failures and embarrassments and brokenness, sign me up. I can’t wait to be there. I want to be there this Sunday. And I think that is exactly what this verse is talking about.

Dave (16:31):

Yeah, I agree. Okay, honey, go ahead. Ask your little question.

Ann (16:35):

I was going to ask because when you’re married to someone, you’re one, so you feel all the things your spouse feels. So if your spouse is at rock bottom and even right now you have a spouse that maybe is in incredible depression or anxiety or sickness, how do we minister to them as a spouse when they’re at rock bottom?

Jani (17:02):

Wow, that is a good question.

Ray (17:04):

Jani, you absolutely did that for me.

Jani (17:08):

How did I do it? Answer the question for me.

Ray (17:15):

You trusted God when I wasn’t able to.

Jani (17:21):

You have to be able to look beyond rock bottom.

Ann:

Kind of the circumstances that you’re in?

Jani:

Yes, to the one who truly is high and lifted up and to whom you belong and to whom you will go someday. So we’re on a pathway and this pathway right now has a deep dark hole in it, but it’s not the end. So can I hold your hand while we walk through this together and maybe I’ll just keep pulling you until we get to the end. That kind of—

Ann (17:56):

So your hope is in Jesus and when your spouse is struggling to even find hope, you’re kind of reminding them of who He is and you’re just, you’re going to do it for them at the time.

Jani (18:09):

In a sense. You have to be careful I think not to be—

Ann (18:13):

—controlling or—

Jani (18:14):

—even giddy about it, lighthearted.

Ann (18:17):

Yeah, no.

Jani (18:17):

You really have to be careful to empathize, to understand because you are suffering as well.

Ann:

Absolutely.

Jani:

When you see your loved one weeping, you weep with them.

Ann:

That’s good.

Jani:

But you also say, I know there is an end to the tears and we’re going to make it and I’m not going to let you go. I’m going to—Ray has a nickname for me we won’t put on the radio, but—

Ray (18:45):

Yeah, it really describes her.

Jani:

I’m not going to let you go.

Ray:

You got everybody wanting to know it.

Jani (18:51):

Well, they can listen next time.

Dave:

What’s it rhyme with?

Ray (18:52):

It rhymes with—this woman is a warrior.

Ann (18:57):

She’s a warrior.

Ray (19:01):

Yeah.

Jani (19:01):

But you have to be at rock bottom or else you’ll just stay there and wallow in the mud.

Dave (19:04):

I mean sometimes you have to crawl out.

Ann (19:05):

That’s what it means to be the helper suitable, Ezer Kenegdo—

Ray (19:10):

Oh my goodness, yes.

Ann (19:10):

She’s the warrior.

Ray (19:12):

That’s a great point.

Ann (19:12):

—who stands beside, stands in front of, stands toe to toe. That’s a warrior.

Ray (19:18):

I’ve not thought of this before, honey. One of the most important ways you helped me was patience. Not just patience with me, though you were showing a lot of patience with me, but patience with how God was leading us, how God was orchestrating our life, how God was getting us from step one to step two to step three every day by day. You patiently trusted God. You didn’t freak out and panic and that really helped me.

Ann (19:48):

Wow, that’s good to know.

Jani (19:48):

That is of the Lord, isn’t He so kind? Two are better than one.

Dave (19:54):

Yeah. I mean Ray, how did you—

Ann (19:55):

Come on, you’ve got to give us a taste of what happened.

Dave (19:59):

Yeah, I was just going to say, how did you as a pastor, because often you think pastors don’t hit rock bottom. They have a faith and trust and they’re men and women of the word. I’ve hit rock bottom. I’ve felt betrayal in ways I’ve never experienced that I thought I would never feel in ministry from ministry people. How’d you get there?

Ray (20:22):

Exact same thing.

Dave (20:23):

Really?

Ray (20:23):

Yeah. Betrayal is the category.

Ann (20:26):

It’s your second chapter.

Ray (20:28):

Yeah. And my life was too good for too long.

Ann (20:37):

Was that the mushy middle?

Ray (20:38):

Yes.

Dave (20:40):

We really do have a similar life.

Ann:

I know.

Dave:

I felt the same thing.

Ray (20:44):

And it was not until I was in my 50s, that betrayal paid a visit and robbed me of almost everything I’d been living for all my adult life. Took it away, wrongly. And that was when I finally had this realization. “Oh so this is what half the human race is going through right now.” And I walk through a neighborhood, and I see these lovely homes and so forth—it’s a great neighborhood. Behind those closed doors are people who are suffering, people driving by in their cars. Half of them on any given day, at some point in the day will have a thought like this, “What has happened to my life? I used to have a life. Now I’m stuck with this. What is the point? Do I have anything to look forward to anymore? Do I have a future worth getting excited about or is the good of my life now in the past?”

Ann (22:00):

Even the question, “Are you a good God?”

Ray (22:02):

Yes.

Ann (22:03):

We sing about it, but are you?

Ray (22:04):

That’s right. Now I finally realized that’s what people are bringing into church and I so deeply want to care for them. I want to reassure them. I want to put my arms around them. Let’s put our anguish right out on the table and let Jesus be our only savior in this church. So if you’re deeply disappointed and brokenhearted and wondering if you have a future, this is the church for you.

Dave (22:35):

And you’re not alone.

Ray (22:36):

Oh, this is where you’re not alone anymore. All week long we have to put on this happy face, right? Then Sunday morning we come to church and we can finally be real. I love that.

Dave (22:47):

That’s church.

Ray (22:50):

Yes.

Dave (22:50):

That’s community. It’s the opposite. We go to a restaurant or a bar, and we share our sorrows and we go to church and we hide.

Ann (22:59):

That old show Cheers, remember, everybody knows your name. You can be who you are.

Dave (23:03):

Yes, because everybody there was struggling.

Ann (23:04):

What if church was like that.

Dave (23:07):

We put up a phrase in our green room at our church. Actually, no, it’s in the hallways. You walk onto the stage, so our musicians see it, our worship leader see it. The pastor sees it and it said this, never underestimate the pain in the room.

Ray:

Oh my.

Dave:

It was just a reminder.

(23:22):

That’s so wise.

(23:24):

There is pain that you’re preaching to today probably in every pew, every seat there’s heartache and that’s who,

Ray:

And God feels it. And God cares.

Dave (23:36):

Yeah. Don’t underestimate that. And we tend to do that.

Ray (23:39):

I found on the website of a church in Philadelphia, a call to worship from centuries ago. And I thought, this is so great. So we stole it and used it at Immanual, and it was very simple. So I walk up there at the beginning of the service. Sometimes I have to ask the Lord to help me hold it together emotionally. So I just stand there and I don’t say—I don’t put on this chipper sort of show. That drives me nuts. So I stand there and I look the people in the eye, and I say to them tenderly “To all who are weary and need rest, to all who mourn and long for comfort, to all who fail—

(24:26):

—and desire strength, to all who sin and sin again and need a Savior, this church opens wide her doors with a welcome from Jesus. Welcome to church.”

Ann (24:42):

Do you say that every day, every Sunday?

Ray (24:44):

Yes.

Ann (24:45):

Oh my goodness. We need to steal that.

Dave (24:47):

We’re stealing it.

Ann (24:49):

That is so good.

Ray (24:51):

A friend of mine said he risked getting a ticket speeding to church because he had to hear that.

Dave:

Really?

Ray:

Because it’s opposite from the world and it’s an old Christian tradition. We painted the outside doors of the church red because we come into the church through the blood of Christ. Out in that social environment all week long we’re never complete, we never belong. We’re always on the outside trying to earn our way in. Then we come to church through the finished work of Christ on the cross. We walk into completeness, acceptance, forgiveness, hope through his blood. This is a different social reality and we’re going to enjoy it to the hilt.

Dave (25:39):

That’s awesome. I’m sitting here thinking your church just grew by a thousand people in Nashville that are listening for the viewers. They’re like, “I’m going to that church.” I mean, who wouldn’t want to be a part of that community?

Ann (25:51):

That’s the beauty of the gospel.

Ray (25:52):

Exactly.

Ann (25:54):

And that’s what’s so compelling. And yet we’ve distorted it and messed it up and shined it up but that is we walk through the blood of Christ first. That is so good.

Ray (26:04):

So there’s good news at rock bottom and really, I don’t know where else we’re going to find it. It’s not in the mushy middle.

Ann (26:11):

Have you guys ever experienced this? One of my really good friends, her son at nine years old was diagnosed with cancer. So she recalls these days of being in the hospital. She said, “I can remember being on my knees by his bedside in the hospital on this cold linoleum floor crying out to God.” And she said, “I’ve never felt him so close. Almost like I could feel the breath, His breath on my face.” And she said, “Sometimes”—and he was healed. He’s doing great. He’s a doctor now. She said, “Sometimes I miss those days.

Ray:

Wow.

Ann:

Have you ever felt that?

Ray:

That’s interesting.

Ann:

Or experienced that of like you’re so close when you’re at rock bottom.

(26:55):

And she’s saying the same thing. “I don’t want to be back in the mushy middle, but we kind of all tend to go back there.”

Ray (27:02):

Well, God in mercy sends us more trouble.

Ann (27:07):

But you’re like, “Please no, Lord, not that again.” Yeah.

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Dave (27:36):

I’m in here. I’m in your corner.

Ann (27:39):

In your corner, in the corner. These are the things that are truly us.

Ray (27:47):

Our ideal designer lives, they so let us down. And the presence, the felt presence of the risen Christ at rock bottom never lets us down. It is literally heaven on earth.

Ann (28:06):

No wonder—you planted a church at, how old were you?

Ray (28:12):

I don’t blame you for laughing, Jani. This is crazy. I was 58.

Ann (28:16):

58.

Ann (28:17):

But here’s the craziest thing, but now I’m not surprised at all because your congregation, you were surprised to find that the people that were coming were in their twenties and thirties because they want, they want authenticity. Don’t you think? They want exactly what you’re saying at the beginning. I would want to come to that. I’m just going to stream you guys in every Sunday.

Dave (28:42):

Well also the church is, and it isn’t only the church, but I think God designed a church where 20- and 30-year-olds and 40-year-olds are doing life beside 50- and 60- and 70-, 80-year-olds.

Ann:

There’s a beauty.

Dave:

And there’s that wisdom, sharing, light—we can learn from them. They can learn from—what a beautiful, and it is so often that the younger generation doesn’t want to learn from the older or the older doesn’t want to learn from the younger. And the church can be the place like; we’re all rock bottom. Let’s learn together. Let’s find Jesus and let Him pull us out of here.

Ann (29:13):

Even your betrayals, you talk about betrayal and you say that betrayal is not the same as disappointment. Betrayal is not dashed expectations, but broken promises. You believe their promises. You open up and get close to those people. You give them your heart so that something deep within you is at stake in your relationship with them, their commitments to you go poof. But I think about that in marriage.

Dave (29:39):

No, I mean I highlighted that in your book because when you said Go poof, I’m like, that’s how it happens. It feels like, what just went away? It’s all gone.

Ray (29:50):

Yeah. It’s disorienting. It’s like, what’s real here? And that was the very question up in my face during those months and years of crisis. What is real? What can I really trust? What can I really believe? And I knew I could trust Jani. She was real, her commitment, her love. You were real sweetheart.

Jani (30:16):

By God’s grace.

Ray (30:17):

You were the first reality that I could just, okay, I know she’s not going away. She’s not deceiving me. This is like legit.

Ann:

I can trust her.

Ray:

I can trust her. And then secondly, the Bible. The Bible has stood the test of time. The Bible itself has been betrayed and hammered on and it’s still here.

Ann:

That’s true.

Ray:

Still serving us. And then a small group of faithful friends, they were legit. They were real. They were for us. And they were not—

Jani (30:51):

They gathered around.

Ray (30:52):

They were not going away, yes.

Jani (30:53):

They said, “Ray, just come over. We’ll pray for you.” And there were just two or three couples and they prayed for us on Sunday nights. Then they said after a while, “Would you be willing just to open the word for us, Ray? Just give us a little word from scripture.” So we started doing that and then after a few weeks of that, they kept asking for more and more. It grew to about 30. And they said, “We kind of feel like we want to be a church together. We feel like we’re a church.”

Ann (31:25):

What did you guys think of that?

Ray (31:27):

It scared me.

Ann (31:28):

Did it?

Ray (31:29):

Yeah, sure. Because it’s like I’ve been there, done that.

Ann (31:33):

Yeah.

Ray (31:36):

So I called my dad because I was hearing this buzz. Do we want to be—plant a church? I called my dad, this profound wise father figure, literal father figure. I said, “Dad, here’s what I’m hearing from them. What do you think if I go back and recommend that we change the question from “Do we want to start a church?” to “Does God want to start a church?” and just give him time to answer that question? And he loved that idea. So I said, “Okay, that means a lot to me.”

Ann (32:12):

How old was your dad at the time? Do you remember?

Ray (32:14):

Yeah. Dad was 82, as I recall.

Ann (32:17):

It was right before he died.

Ray (32:19):

It was the last conversation I ever had with him.

Dave:

Really.

Ann:

Come on.

Ray:

I’m serious.

Ann (32:24):

How sweet of God.

Jani:

Oh yeah.

Ray (32:27):

Yes. I needed that conversation—

Ann (32:30):

You needed your father on earth.

Ray (32:31):

—with my dad. Yeah, yeah.

Dave:

Wow.

Ray:

So I brought the redesigned question back to the people. They loved it! Because I wanted to be careful. I wanted to be sure. So we took the rest of that year to continue. We met on Sunday nights and we deferred any answer to that question. We just waited on the Lord as the Bible so often says, circled back to the question months later, toward the end of the year, and it was unanimous. The steering committee handed out a piece of paper on one side, I do or do not feel a clear call from God to give a new church to this city. On the other side, in this next year my financial commitment will be fill in the blank. They came back; it was unanimous. And we didn’t know which answer. We just were shown the totals, and it was obviously sacrificial. So Jani and I looked at that and we thought, “Yeah, this does have God’s fingerprints on it.”

Jani (33:40):

We had had some invitations. Ray had large churches to come and pastor so we needed to see: is this of you Lord? Where do you want us to serve?

Ray (33:53):

Yeah. I already had the big church t-shirt and—

Jani (33:57):

You didn’t want to wear that anymore.

Dave:

Been there, done that. Not what it’s cracked up to be.

Ray (34:02):

Yeah. So God gave us a reasonable reassurance. This was of him. We gulped and jumped in. And the last 11 years of my pastoral ministry, I had the most fun of my entire life.

Dave:

Really?

Ann (34:23):

That’s so sweet of God.

Ray (34:24):

We had a blast.

Jani (34:26):

And we could always look at it and say, this is the 1 Peter 5:10.

Dave (34:31):

Yeah.

Jani (34:32):

God, this is of You. You have done this. We’d stand there on a Sunday morning and I’m sure you have and look around. We’d say, “Who are these people?”

Ray:

Yeah. “How did this happen?”

Dave (34:43):

Exactly.

Jani:

Only You Lord could do this.

Ann:

It wasn’t your planning and strategizing.

Jani:

No.

Ray (34:49):

No, not our big dealness.

Ann (34:50):

We have to go back to the forgiveness topic just because if you have a betrayal, you have to get to forgiveness at some point. And I love that you even ended that chapter with Corrie Ten Boom. But what about you guys? And Jan, I’m telling you, when Dave feels betrayed and have seen Dave be betrayed, oh, this is when I get hot!

Dave (35:14):

Lookout, lookout.

Ann (35:15):

And protective and I want to beat people up. Yes. So you have to forgive as well.

Jani (35:25):

Yes, in a different way.

(35:28):

It’s kind of a mama bear forgiveness. And it’s very hard. I have to keep coming back to the cross saying, “Okay, Lord, why am I able to judge those people? Why do I put myself in judgment over what they did to my man?” Well, because I’m close to him. I love him in a special way, but I need to forgive as that’s the new commandment. John 13. Don’t just love my neighbor as I want to be loved but love my neighbor as Jesus has loved me. How have you forgiven me? Okay, Lord, with your Holy Spirit’s help. And actually, we live in the same city as the betrayal took place. And so there are interactions at times, and I’ve had to make a promise to the Lord that every time we drive past a certain place, I’m going to ask you to bless it even when I don’t feel like it. And that has helped me.

Ann:

Bless those who curse you.

Ray (36:39):

Yeah. My dad pointed something out to me that I’d never noticed. In Job chapter 42, when the Lord is restoring Job, it says, “When Job prayed for his friends, the Lord restored his fortunes.”

Ann (37:00):

Oh, I’ve never thought through that.

Ray (37:02):

Yeah, I hadn’t either. So these friends that had just hammered on him, “Job, this is really all your fault. Come on, own up.” When Job prayed for them, for their restoration, God restored him. So Jani, the truth of it is you’re way more gracious than I am. And again, you set such a great godly tone, Christ-like tone for me to follow. And yeah, forgiveness is the hard step we take that actually prevails over evil. It defeats evil. Forgiveness doesn’t yield to evil. Forgiveness defeats evil.

Ann (37:52):

Wow. That’s a good way to say it. I’ve never thought of that either. I should write all these things down or else just get your book.

Dave (38:01):

Here’s how I think we should end. There’s people listening who are at rock bottom. What a day for them. I think maybe would you pray for them?

Ray:

Yeah.

Ann (38:13):

And let me add, I want us all to read this book. We’ve got chapters on betrayal, being lonely, dying. I mean, this is the stuff that we’re living through. And besides God’s Word, it helps sometimes to have someone else’s perspective that’s been at rock bottom; that can remind us who God is and how faithful He is.

Ray (38:38):

Yeah. I’d love to pray.

Lord, this is not easy. You’ve called us to walk through this world trusting in You one step at a time. And it’s not easy. It wasn’t easy for You when You were here. It was even harder because we compromise, we cave. You never did. And we need you right now more than ever.

Jani (39:11):

Yes.

Ray (39:14):

We put our trust in You. We look to You, Lord. We need strength moment by moment today. And then we’re going to need it all over again tomorrow and then the day after that. And we are trusting You, Lord, that whatever body slams us, You—

(39:33):

—understand, You feel it, You are with us, and You’re going to get us through this.

(39:39):

Lord, we praise Your holy name. Thank You for being, thank You for absorbing our pain into Your own heart. Thank You for not standing aloof. Thank You for coming down as our ally.

(39:58):

Lord, we do trust You.

(40:03):

Help us to trust You five minutes from now and then five minutes after that.

Jani (40:10):

Yes.

Ray (40:11):

We’re down before You in complete need. We receive Your promises. We praise Your holy name. In Jesus’ name. Amen.

Dave:

Amen.

Ann:

Amen.

Jani:

Amen.

Dave (40:23):

Thank you, guys.

Ann (40:25):

So good.

Ray (40:25):

Thank you.

Dave (40:25):

You can get this book; go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click on the link in the show notes. Good News at Rock Bottom, you need it.

Ann:

It is good news.

Dave:

If you don’t need it now, you’ll need it tomorrow. That’s a hopeful thought, isn’t it? Rock bottom. Rock bottom is on its way.

Ann (01:21:17):

Hey, thanks for watching and if you liked this episode—

Dave (01:21:22):

You better like it.

Ann (01:21:23):

—just hit that like button.

Dave (01:21:24):

And we’d like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe—I can’t say the word subscribe. Hit the subscribe button. I don’t think I can say this word.

Ann (01:21:35):

Like and subscribe.

Dave (01:21:36):

Look at that. You say it so easy. Subscribe. There it goes.

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