Start with the Heart: Dr. Kathy Koch

Episode Transcript

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Start with the Heart

Guest:Kathy Koch

From the series:Start with the Heart (Day 3 of 3)

Air date:March 6, 2026

Kathy (00:04):

So at the end of the day, when we empty the backpack, we talk about how is church. We talk about their emotional wellness. So it’s intellectual, emotional, social, physical, and spiritual. If we raise children to know they have all five of those identities, they’re less likely to put all their eggs in one basket.

Ann (00:30):

Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave (00:37):

And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Ann (00:50):

This is our last day with Dr. Kathy Koch, talking about raising kids and starting with their hearts. That’s actually the name of the book Start with the Heart.

Dave (01:00):

Yeah, it’s going to be a great day. Let’s go. I can’t wait to just—let’s just jump in.

Ann (01:08):

I remember when our kids were little, I did this all the time of saying to them when they’re really little, even, “I can’t wait to see all that God has put into you.”

Kathy (01:17):

Love it.

Ann (01:18):

“You’re going to be totally different from your brother of what God has put in you to do or to become or to be.” I said, “You have gifts that He’s given you and it’s going to be so fun to discover them.” Then when they got older, I’m like, “The reason we do things at church and we’re serving is because that’s part of our call, but also to discover what do you love?”

Kathy (01:39):

Love it.

Ann (01:39):

“What are the things that God’s going to assign to you? What are you passionate about? ” And I’m saying that now to our grandkids, like, “I can’t wait to see—” And I’m starting to see them already. And then they’ll be like, “What, Noni? What do you see?” “I see that you’re a protector and you’re really funny and you’re really a hard worker.” We have one grandson who makes coffee for his dad every morning.

Kathy:

Oh my goodness.

Ann:

And then he does the laundry. It started at five years old.

Dave (02:07):

He’s six years old.

Kathy (02:08):

That’s so beautiful.

Ann:

And I said, “Bryce, this is so unique about you that you’re good at it and you like it. I wonder what God’s going to do with that.”

Kathy (02:16):

I love that because that’s direction. I love to say to young people that your future is in you because Ephesians 2:10, we’re gifted in advance to do good work that we would walk in them. So I was a chatty Kathy as a kid and now I speak, right? And the same thing for both of you, right?

Ann (02:30):

Right.

Kathy (02:31):

And I loved reading and writing and now I write books. The future is in you. When I say that to young adults—

Ann (02:36):

I love that. The future is in me.

Kathy (02:38):

—they look at me like, “Whoa.” So get direction, seek counsel from the people who know you and the people who you want to be known by. But the future’s in you. Ephesians 2:10 declares it.

Ann (02:49):

I love that.

Kathy (02:50):

Well, thank you. It’s what you’re doing, which is just so beautiful. Then they’re empowered to believe God has done a good work for them. It’s so important so let me quickly do competence. I’m loving this Ann.

Dave:

This is big.

Ann:

I know it.

Kathy:

It is. So purpose, why am I alive, leads to competence, what do I do well? So we have security, identity, belonging, purpose, and then competence, what do I do well? And a lot of people think that that’s the only one that matters. This would be a school model and it’s very dangerous because we would believe at Celebrate Kids and based on Ephesians and the teaching of Christ, that if you don’t have security, identity, belonging, and purpose in healthy ways, you will not have competence. You don’t need it. The reason you need competence, what do I do well, is because you have purpose.

(03:32):

So when I notice mediocrity, when I notice the plateau of average, when I notice people who can’t decide what to do next, it is a lack of purpose, which causes a lack of need for competence. Competence is character, which we all need.

(03:46):

Competence is love, which is great commandment, great commission, if you will. Competence is teachability and again, it’s a character piece, what do I do well and who am I well? If I can maybe put it that way as well. And purpose will drive competence. And you can put a double-sided arrow there. If people can see that, competence can facilitate purpose. When you tell a child what he is good at, you’re good at cleaning, you’re good at organizing, you’re good at helping, you’re an excellent service, you have initiative, you do things before you’re asked to do them. You have a heart of service that’s competence. Okay, what’s his purpose? To serve and to clean. So now he has eyes to see where he could serve. And now he has affirmation, which is belonging. He has identity and he has security. I belong here. When a child has chores and a child facilitates growth within the family unit, they’re wanted there and they wanted to be there.

(04:36):

They’re needed there and it’s so valuable. That’s a reason we have family units, right? Okay. When you teach your grandchildren, when you develop their competency to be obedient, to go to bed, to eat their vegetables, to do life well, competency, you’re giving them security in you.

(04:51):

When we correct, when we teach, when we have these conversations, let me teach you something that I think would help you in relationship. Before you talk about yourself, ask them to elaborate on their story. When you teach them something that facilitates their growth, they become more secure in you as the teacher. And now when they’re confused, they’re going to come back to you. And they also develop inappropriate self-security. So now they go to youth group, or they go to a babysitting job, or they go to work or they go to school and they go, “Okay, wait, I’m going to have longer conversations today because I think my mom was right. I need to remember to say, ‘Tell me more.’”

(05:26):

So now they have a security in themselves, which is actually a security in you and the Holy Spirit in them. And those things become life, those are life-changing skills. And ultimately, again, our competence is found in God. Do we pray and do we wait for answers? And then we taught kids how to receive the answers. Our competence is that in God’s strength, we can be strong. Our competence is when we’re weak, he is strong. Our competence is found in the truth of the scripture, which is supposed to be our food. So again, do we model that and do we teach that?

Dave (05:57):

Well, it’s interesting. I know this is true for men. I’m guessing it might be true for women as well. But if I go to a party or any guy goes to a party and meets a new person never met before within five minutes, I was just preaching on this couple weeks ago at my church. I said, “Hey, every guy, within five minutes, I’m meeting a new guy. What’s he going to ask you? ‘What do you do?’” And that is your identity.

Kathy (06:19):

Yes.

Dave (06:19):

Because that answer to that person, and I made a joke about it. The second they say, “I do this,” calculations go off in the brain. “Oh, you make this kind of money. You probably live in the county, drive this kind of car.” And every guy’s like, “Oh, important. Oh, not so important” all based on competence or a job title. And I think that you talk about this because I think we get confused that we think our identity is what I do or how good I am at some point.

Ann:

And kids do too.

Kathy (06:44):

In fact, Dave, a lot of men flip the pyramid and competence becomes their security. My security is what I do and that I do it well, which is why retirement is so hard for men. So I don’t ask men. I rarely ask men what they do, even women for two reasons. I don’t want it to be their identity. And some men aren’t proud of what they do. It’s an awkward, potentially a socially awkward moment. This is why I say, “What would you like me to know about you?”

Dave (07:08):

That’s good.

Ann:

What do women find their identity in or competence in?

Kathy (07:12):

Well, I would love it to be in God, obviously.

Ann (07:14):

That’s the goal.

Kathy (07:15):

I would love it to be in relationships.

Ann (07:17):

What do they usually say? What do you think?

Kathy (07:18):

Career; oh, it’s almost always career.

Ann (07:19):

It is. Children?

Kathy (07:21):

For children, appearance, grades, ability. “I’m the starting forward.” “I’m an A student.” Beauty would be big, but it’s often performance minded, which is why at Celebrate Kids, we podcast often on the danger of raising kids to be performers where they have to perform so mom looks good. They have to perform so dad will love them. It’s not unconditional love. That’s conditional love, which is dangerous, right?

Ann (07:46):

Yeah.

Kathy (07:46):

And they play off of us, right? If our security is money, I live on the right cul-de-sac and I work at this store. I’m so sorry you work there, but I work here. If there’s competition, if there’s comparison, if there’s money, the kids are going to certainly pick up on that, which is really dangerous.

Ann (08:01):

And I think too, as a woman, I can find my identity in my kids.

Kathy (08:05):

Oh, that’s what I mean by they think they have to perform for you.

Ann (08:08):

Yes.

Kathy (08:08):

And then you get your happiness from your kids. And again, God designed the family unit, and you should—I want you to have joy in your children and your grandchildren. And I want you to delight if your adult children are walking with the Lord and they have a solid marriage, but they’re not doing that so that you look good to your peer group. They’re doing that I pray because you’ve taught them well and they’re honoring the Lord and this is what you affirm for them.

Ann (08:30):

And it’s very revealing. I remember when our oldest son—Dave and I are both very extroverted, love getting to know people. So then we were young in our faith. You make assumptions of what your kids will be like. They’re going to be like us. Our oldest son was so introverted, and my mom would always say, “He’s really different, isn’t he?”

Kathy:

Oh no.

Ann:

I’m like, “Well, is he different? Is that bad?” And so I think as a parent, we find so much of our self-worth and identity through our children. I was so worried about that that I couldn’t celebrate the genius of who he was until later.

Dave (09:08):

And he has more friends and great relationships as a man.

Ann:

He’s amazing.

Dave:

I was like, that was a misdiagnosis almost. Yeah, he’s more of an introvert. He gets life and energy from being alone rather than with people.

Ann (09:20):

If we could sell—

Dave (09:21):

But he’s great with people and everybody wants to hang out with him.

Ann (09:23):

Fly your ministry, the name of it. If we could celebrate these kids and who God’s made them to be, because the world is crushing them.

Dave (09:32):

Well, let me ask you this, because I didn’t get any of this. And again, I came from a pretty, very broken, divorce and adultery and alcohol family, but I had a great mom.

Kathy:

Praise the Lord.

Dave:

She was an amazing mom and loved me. And I was the center of her universe. In some ways I get it because her husband left, my brother died of leukemia, I mean, a lot of trauma. But I’m married to Ann and we’re in our first ministry job after college. I am introduced now on the university—we’re working with college athletes, and I was a college athlete a year ago before. So now we’re on a college campus and I’m being introduced “Hey Dave, this is Dave. He’s with Athletes in Action.” That’s Cru ministry. My whole life I’ve been, “This is Dave Wilson quarterback. He’s all conference. He led the nation in this, blah, blah, blah.” Always. There was my name and that.

(10:23):

And now there’s Dave and he’s a pastor. So I’m so insecure. And I would’ve told you I’m the most secure guy ever. Man, I walk into a room, I control it because I control the huddle. I call the play. I tell people what to do. I get them the ball. I go to Ann and I say to her in private, “Hey, listen, nobody here knows that I was somebody. I did something significant.” So I can’t say when they introduce me, “Hey, by the way, a year ago I was leading the nation in this, but you can drop it in there. It’ll make me look better.” What does my wonderful wife say? She goes, “Sure. I’ll do that for you. ” But now looking back, I’m like, I am so insecure because my entire identity was competence.

Kathy (11:06):

It’s a great illustration.

Dave (11:06):

I know a lot of men were this. They don’t admit it. But I had to wrestle with, is that who I am? No, it isn’t. But at that point, I did not know how to disconnect. That is who I am. What do you mean that’s not who I am? What am I apart from that? Because I didn’t understand identity in Christ yet. I really didn’t. And so that question, what you said, what would you like me to know about you? Back then, my answer would have been, “Hey, a year ago, the Cincinnati Bengals reached out, and I had a shot in the NFL.” Now it would be, “I’m a child of God.”

Kathy (11:37):

Amen.

Dave (11:38):

I am significant because of who he says I am. But would I have gotten that? Are you saying if parents understand that and do this well, their kid won’t grow up like me? They won’t have to say to their wife, tell people I was important.

Ann (11:53):

I think you’re kind of a good example of what you’ve come to God.

Kathy (11:53):

It’s a great example. I do believe based on our work that when parents model this, children will become that. And so I think when we are secure in Christ and our relationship that’s most important is Jesus, the sacrifice of Christ, the church, the family of God, serving Him, knowing Him, wanting Him known, when those are things that we celebrate, when we let them know what our values are, that we’re pro- life and that we’re generous and that we’re—I think it changes the family unit. I think it changes the children. And I think it changes you. When a dad wants to impart truth to children, they’ll have to regard themselves differently. And I want to say you were an excellent quarterback. You don’t have to deny that, but living in the past is really dangerous. The question is, who am I, not who was I?

Dave (12:38):

Yeah.

Kathy (12:38):

And there are a lot of men and women who I think live in the past. And we would say at the ministry that the past informs you, but it ought not control you. We ought to always be growing up and moving forward. And sometimes there’s a really hard shift. In fact, this is one of the reasons our kids are not launching well because they don’t want to give up what they’ve had, and they don’t know how to pursue something that’s unknown because they want to be happy and that’s a whole nother show. But your example—

Dave (13:06):

And they’re not secure.

Kathy (13:06):

And they’re not secure.

Dave:

This is their security. They’re afraid to lose it.

Kathy:

It’s really good. So we can’t just affirm a daughter or son’s ability. So at the end of the day, when we empty the backpack, or we talk about how is church, we talk about their emotional wellness, their physical wellness, their emotional—so it’s intellectual, emotional, social, physical, and spiritual. If we raise children to know they have all five of those identities, they’re less likely to put all their eggs in one basket. So for you, it would have been security, I’m a great quarterback; identity, I’m a great quarterback; belonging, the team needs me; on purpose, to win the game; competence, I’m a great quarterback. And when you’re no longer that, all five go away. And for a lot of women, security, my kids love me; identity, I’m their mom; belonging, my kids love me; purpose to raise good kids; competence, I’m a good mom.

(14:01):

That’s why empty nesting is so difficult. Those things are good things.

Ann (14:05):

Right.

Kathy (14:06):

They’re good things. They’re a part of what is good. Primarily, again, it’s Jesus. Do we know that? Is He enough?

Dave (14:13):

Yeah.

Kathy (14:14):

And do we celebrate Him in a real way? And do our kids know that? And then do we make sure to talk with them about all of who they are? I think that—let me just come back to that.

Ann (14:23):

Yeah. What do you mean by all of who they are?

Kathy (14:25):

Again, do you talk about their spiritual self? Do you say, “I noticed you worshiping with great joy, like you didn’t distract me. I was worshiping, but I couldn’t help but notice that you were so in the moment with Jesus.” “And by the way, Bethany, you’re ready for church on time and that just blesses me and pleases God.” So do we talk about the things that we say are most important? Do we ask at the end of the day, “Who were you friendly with today and why?” Do we ask at the end of youth group, “Did you notice anyone lonely and did you choose to sit with him? And if not, why not?” “Did you welcome anybody into your icebreaker game, or did you just ignore those who seemed insecure?” So we’re asking different questions because you know what we ask they value.

Ann (15:04):

Does that ever bring shame on kids?

Kathy (15:06):

Not if we do it right, hopefully. No, that’s really a good question. I don’t want to shame or blame anybody. If you are raising children to be hospitable, if you’re teaching them to look out for the lonely—

Ann (15:17):

Which we want to do.

Kathy (15:19):

I hope so. Then you ask that question. If you’ve never taught your kids to be hospitable, if you’ve never taught your kids to look out for the lonely, then it’s probably not appropriate to ask the question. Rather, we would make a statement: “Hey, I noticed in the work lunchroom today there was a lady all alone and I hadn’t met her before and I asked if she would mind if I sat with her and we had a great conversation. She actually lives only about a mile and a half from here. I might be able to help her out Tuesday when she needs to get her car worked on.”

Ann (15:41):

That’s so good.

Kathy (15:42):

And so, “Have you ever thought to do that?” Your question is excellent. We don’t want to shame or blame. I don’t want any of our listeners to feel that either. You don’t know what you don’t know. So be grateful for the future. Don’t regret the past.

Ann (15:53):

That’s good. And even the hospitable part, is it what you just illustrated? Even like, how do we teach our boys to be hospitable?

Kathy (16:01):

We invite people over on a Friday night, even if our house is a mess. We go to the park, and we invite our neighbors to go with us, so we have more people to play a game of ball with. We put people first. So I’m a task oriented, busy woman.

Ann:

Me too.

Kathy:

I have a tendency to—I’m an introvert. So when I get home, I like my home. I have learned to say yes to invitations to have dinner with people because people matter greatly. And I’ll go out of my way to say yes, so I look hospitable and that way if I had a kid that I was raising, I think they would see that I sacrifice for the good of people.

Ann (16:36):

Sometimes you may not want to do it.

Kathy (16:37):

No. And it’s okay to sometimes not do it.

Ann (16:39):

Yeah.

Kathy (16:40):

And it’s okay to do it even if we don’t want to. Why? Because God’s Word trumps it all and He would say, look out for the lonely or help out a friend. So I think our role modeling, Dave, as you said, it really is very, very important that we are who we want them to be. And then I also think we teach, like in my character book, we teach hospitality, we teach other centeredness, we teach respect for others. And then in friendship, we teach them how to have a conversation.

Ann (17:04):

Oh, that’s so good.

Kathy (17:05):

What do you do when somebody says, “Hey”—kids will say to me, “Dr. Kathy,” they’ll say, “How are you?” But then I try to answer it and they don’t listen. So is the right answer always fine, but when I’m not okay, can I ever talk about it? I mean, those are real questions. So if we don’t again, handle those awkward social moments, then maybe they’re not going to be able to do it well.

Ann (17:26):

Yeah. I had two of our grandkids in the car when school was about to start. One was going to be in preschool, the other in first grade. And I said, “You guys, this is fun. You’re going to probably make some new friends this year.” And I said, “Do you know how to make a friend?” And they both said, “No.” I had never even thought about that. So just some questions they could ask like, “Hey, what’s your name and what do you like to do?” Or just give them, “Do you want to play this or can I join you?” They had never thought of that. And to walk into a situation and you have no idea how to make a friend, and you get into that of how to do that.

Kathy (18:03):

Absolutely. We didn’t have to do that in the old days.

Ann (18:06):

No.

Kathy (18:07):

It was natural. But now because of devices and our eyes are down and our hands are busy and it’s all about us, we’ve become very self-centered, even adults, it’s a difficult thing. So again, what we want for them, we have to teach them. Now we pray for them, and God is faithful to answer our prayers, but let’s also teach them the skills that we think they need.

Dave (18:32):

Hey, let me just pause and say this. Our financial partners are the heartbeat of this ministry. And when you join this monthly giving community, you’re not just donating, you’re building something eternal.

Ann (18:45):

And we’d be so honored to have you on the journey with us. We really would. So here’s the question: will you join us today?

Dave (18:54):

I hope your answer is yes. And if it is, go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can click the donate button right there and become a part of the monthly partner program.

Hey, we’ve got Bruce in there with young kids. Chancel is in there. Anything that you guys want to ask?

Chancel (19:15):

We have so many questions. So many questions. So Kathy, as you’re going through many of prompting some of the conversations with kids, it sounds as though you said daily, these are some of the things you should hit on. How are they doing spiritually, emotionally, intellectually, things of that nature? And so my question is, how do you have those conversations daily with multiple kids? I feel as though I need to start—Bruce and I were laughing saying at six in the morning to get them all in.

Kathy (19:51):

Yeah. Maybe you’re not able to. It’s okay. If you look at a seven-day week, have we talked to Lisa and Frank? Have we done our very best to prioritize each of the children in opportunities? Do we take different kids on car rides? Do we go for a bike ride with a different kid, or do we always only go with the one kid? And is one kid a morning kid and one kid’s a night kid; I think we consider that as well. And one of the things that I’ve done successfully as I’ve mentored families would be even a Go Fish pile in the middle of the table at dinner and everybody in the family chooses a question, including mom and dad, or a statement. It might be a statement, it might be a question, or it might even be health, and they have to tell you about health that day.

(20:27):

Did they have a health class or when do they feel unhealthy? When do they feel healthy? You could have a Go Fish pile of adjectives: compassionate, friendly, angry, hopeful. And they could all choose a card and talk about that feeling that day and when do they have it. So if it’s random, the kids won’t feel so picked on and they might be more willing to share. And it might take the stress off of the mom because I have to think of another question to ask another kid and that can become really intimidating possibly. So I think making it a game, I actually believe in rolling a dice. And if there’s a six, you get to tell me six things you did that day. And if you get a one, you only have to tell me one. And what’s really frustrating is if Chatty Kathy gets the one, because Chatty Kathy always wants the six.

(21:08):

So I think maybe making it a game and making it more interactive might be fun. And doing it over the course of a week would be ideal. I don’t think every day is realistic for a lot of our busy parents and even busy kids. But again, I would say with respect, if we’re so busy we can’t, is there something we could drop out of because prioritizing family in these very few years that we have is probably going to be a God honoring decision.

Ann (21:31):

One of the things we did, Chancel, was we would focus on our just times that naturally occur with a family: car time, bedtime, mealtime. And we would have somewhere along that time; I would make sure that I would hit each one of those with one of those kids because it’s just natural. It happens, especially when they’re young. You know that. And they’re from—

Kathy (21:52):

Deuteronomy six. And you know what happens?

(21:56):

What I think happens you guys is that if we start to do that, they’re going to want us to do it. They might resist the first two times. “Oh, another question.” But they want to be known. We talked about this at the very beginning. They want to be seen. They want to know that they’re valued there. So if you start the habit, they’ll continue the habit and they’ll come up to you and say, “Hey mom, ask me this question tonight,” because they have something that they want to share with us. What an honor that we would be there as the listener.

Ann (22:19):

I was sad when my kids turned 16 and I wouldn’t have that captive audience in the car.

Dave (22:25):

I was sad when our 16-year-old backed into the car on the driveway, three times. That happened three times.

Ann (22:32):

Did you have one, Bruce?

Bruce (22:33):

I don’t know if it’s a question as much as it’s just like a realization of how important it is to be intentional with these things because otherwise if I let my kids just lead the conversation, I have young girls. I just go numb. They’re trying to explain the Mario level they made and with this lava thing and I’m like, “I can’t give you my attention for that long. I can’t get there.” But if I was intentional to get these heart questions, once I’m there, I love to hear their heart. You know what I mean? And then I’m engaged, but it’s the intentionality. Otherwise, I’m like, “I don’t know what you’re talking about, and I just want some me time.”

Kathy:

I love your honesty.

Bruce:

Yeah, it’s a realization. Also, conviction, if you feel a little convicted, but yeah. And I really appreciate how you answered Chancel’s because I was feeling the same thing.

(23:24):

It’s like, “Okay, got to floss my teeth”—we were laughing—”we got to get 64 ounces of water, got to make sure that the lawn is mowed, mortgage is paid. Are we doing our taxes right? Am I spending time with Maria?” It’s like, oh my goodness. It can start to feel overwhelming.

(23:39):

But like you’re saying, as you’re going, be intentional. Man, that’s what I’m taking away from this.

Dave (23:44):

Well, I’m just going to say thank you.

Kathy (23:47):

You’re welcome.

Dave (23:47):

I mean, you’re the best, every single time.

Kathy (23:48):

You’re very kind.

Dave (23:51):

And you can get her book at FamilyLifeToday.com. Click on the link in the show notes. Start with the Heart, you will want to get this book. I’m telling you.

Ann:

It’s so good.

Dave:

It’s a gem.

Kathy:

Thank you very much.

Dave:

You get to the core of what we need to do and be as parents, so thanks.

Kathy:

You’re welcome.

Dave:

What if the questions you’re too embarrassed to ask are the ones your marriage needs answered?

Ann (24:15):

Marriage After Dark is FamilyLife’s newest podcast where a real married couple talks openly about healthy, God-honoring sex. Yes, the stuff you’d never ask your pastor or your friends.

Dave (24:28):

Yeah. So for more, go to FamilyLife.com/MarriageAfterDark because intimacy shouldn’t stay in the dark. Again, that’s FamilyLife.com/MarriageAfterDark.

Ann (24:45):

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