Leveling Up: The Wild Mission of Christian Gaming–Jonathan Ober & Frank Kuligowski

Episode Transcript

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Leveling Up: The Wild Mission of Christian Gaming

Guests: Jonathan Ober and Frank Kulgowski
From the series: The Mission of Christian Gaming (Day 1 of 2)
Air date: June 1, 2026

Jonathan (00:04):
Are there things that you would do in these VR spaces or in these gaming spaces that you would not do in front of mom and dad or grandma and grandpa? No. Okay, good. Let’s keep that. And so just being a light there and sharing Jesus in whatever they do.
Ann (00:27):
Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.
Dave (00:33):
And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.
Honey, we’re talking about your favorite topic today.
Ann (00:49):
Yes, we are.
Dave (00:50):
What is it?
Ann (00:50):
Gaming.
Dave (00:51):
I don’t know if it’s gaming or the—is it called the Meta Universe? We’ve got Jonathan Ober who goes by Ober.
Jonathan:
Yes.
Dave:
Yeah. And I’ve got to ask you about Jonathan. And I got to try this, Frank Kulgowski.
Frank (01:05):
That was perfect; got it.
Dave (01:06):
Was it perfect?
Frank (01:06):
You got it.
Dave:
I want to see if Ann can say it.
Ann (01:08):
That’s Kulgowski.
Dave (01:09):
Oh, you’re so—
Frank (01:10):
Great. Yep. That’s it.
Dave (01:11):
You’ve got the—what do you call that thing over there?
Frank (01:13):
This is a virtual reality, VR, headset.
Dave (01:17):
What in the world are you guys doing in this universe and how do you know each other?
Ann (01:21):
In this universe.
Jonathan (01:22):
We’re going into different worlds where we’re meeting other people. And when I say worlds, it could be something like an internet cafe, could be a Japanese Shinto temple type place.
Dave (01:32):
You’re actually online in that space?
Jonathan (01:34):
Yes. We are visiting a virtual world that someone has created. Maybe it looks like a real place. Maybe it looks like something fantastical that they’ve made up. There could be a giant whale swimming in the sky and beautiful ocean water just kind of lapping up against a shore. So any kind of thing you could think of, there might be a world out there where you could go and visit.
Dave (01:58):
Can you just knock on the door and walk in? How do you get in?
Jonathan (02:01):
There’s these things called portals, and you can throw a portal out and bring a friend with you and you just walk through and think of it as just like a giant oval that has a picture of that world and you’re there in a matter of seconds.
Ann (02:13):
People are thinking right now.
Jonathan (02:15):
Magically, zip, you’re in a different place.
Ann (02:16):
Are we listening to FamilyLife Today? Yes, you are. And this is a place where a lot of our kids, our young adults, us, a lot of us are going to these places.
Jonathan (02:26):
Yeah.
Dave (02:27):
What happens when you get there? What do you do?
Jonathan (02:29):
So a lot of what we’re trying to do is meet people where they are. And so we approach them and sometimes we just say, hi, how are you doing today? And that could turn into a conversation where they’re—
Dave (02:38):
Not a lot different than if you walked into a park.
Jonathan (02:40):
No, not a lot different.
Dave (02:42):
And they’re sitting there and you just were a nice guy, and you said, “Hey, how are you doing?”
Jonathan:
Yep, for sure.
Dave:
And see if they want to talk. Is there a …
Jonathan (02:48):
Yeah.
Ann (02:48):
Wait, is this different from playing video games online, which everybody’s doing?
Jonathan (02:53):
Yes.
Ann (02:53):
Is this different?
Jonathan (02:53):
We use VRChat when we’re going into the—
Ann (02:56):
And what is VRChat?—for the people that aren’t the gamers.
Jonathan (02:59):
It is an application typically on a virtual reality headset, though you can go on your phone. It does have an element of a phone app and a computer PC app, but you’re going on there and essentially to meet other people or maybe just hang out in a virtual space. And we say, “How are you doing today?” And sometimes that can be retorted, like somebody might curse at you, unfortunately. But a lot of what we’re finding is that there are people that are just lost in their own world and maybe the only place that they find freedom, or they find connection is in the virtual space. And so when we say, “How are you doing?” Sometimes that person responds with, “I’m doing all right.” I personally like to say, “What do you mean by all right? What’s going on that you’re only all right?”
(03:43):
Because if you’re not good or you’re not great, something’s going on. And so that then can steamroll into a conversation of maybe their life with their family is not great and they’re in or in a relationship that’s broken, a girlfriend or boyfriend. I recall an experience where I met a person, they go by the name of Huska, and I went up to them and I just said, “How are you doing?” And he was like, “I’m doing okay.” And I said, “Okay, well, tell me a little bit about that. ” And he was sharing a little bit. And in that conversation, he asked me what was I doing in VRChat? I said, “Well, I come in here with a group of friends over my lunch break.” And he was like, “Well, how do you get enough time for your lunch break?” And I was like, “Well, I work for this organization called FamilyLife. And a part of that, we have this group that go into VRChat to share the gospel and meet people where they’re at and just point them to Jesus.”
(04:34):
He said, “I am a new Christian.” And he said, “I’ve been struggling to find a church,”—and this person is from Australia. So again, VRChat, you’re meeting people from all over the world. And so he starts sharing a little bit then about how his parents don’t believe in Jesus. They don’t take him to church. They don’t want anything to do with it. And he was looking for community. And so that perked up in me, the community that we have. We have a Discord group, which is an application where people can come on and chat and be a part of communities. And so I said, “Hey, we have this gaming place where people like you who may be new Christians or have been Christians for a while can come and meet others, game together, build community, but foster friendships and get resources on how they can then share the gospel with others.” And so within that hour that I talked to Huska, he was like, “I know that God brought you into this space today to talk to me, to encourage me and then to invite me in.”
(05:29):
Within probably six hours or so, he was in our discord and communicating with other people and now he’s a part of our community.
Ann (05:37):
So Frank, how did you guys fall into this? You’ve known each other for a while. It’s not like you’re these teenage boys. You guys are married with families. First of all, tell us about that part. You’ve been married for a while.
Frank (05:52):
Yeah. So I have been interested in how God is using technology in the church spaces and in crew, FamilyLife, and how he’s building his kingdom. And it was 2022 in the summer that I heard about a particular webinar or a day of different talks. I was listening and doing some work and different people got on and shared a little bit from this angle, technology and church and technology. But then one guy got on, his name is Pastor Brock, and he just got on there and said, “I go into virtual reality. I share my faith. You got to come.” And it was a call. It was an invitation.
Ann:
He said, “Come with me.”
Frank:
And he’s just saying, “Please, all you who are listening, come with me.” And I thought, “I want to go.” I hadn’t been in VR or anything. And I knew some video game, and we were trying to do some video game stuff, but virtual reality, I didn’t have experience with that.
(06:46):
And I thought, so I talked to my wife and said, “Actually, Beth, hey, I heard this thing. What would you think if we got a headset?” And she’s like, “Okay.”
Dave (06:57):
You didn’t even have a headset?
Frank (06:59):
I didn’t have a headset or anything. I’m captivated by this Pastor Brock. His invitation come with me to share the gospel, minister to people
Dave (07:07):
It sounds like when said that, I said, “Remember Jesus saying come and see.”
Frank (07:10):
Come and see. And it really was.
Dave (07:12):
It was just like an invitation.
Frank (07:12):
It was an invitation.
Dave (07:13):
Come take a look.
Ann:
How old were your kids then?
Frank (07:14):
So I guess it was 14, 16, and 18 at that time. This was four years ago.
Ann (07:21):
We’re like, “Do we have the coolest dad in the world?” Did they think that?
Frank (07:25):
Well, actually, I asked my son who was 18 and he’s really into tech and I said, “John, can you help me set this up?” So I went to Best Buy. I got one. I came home and, “Hey, can you help me with this?” He’s like, “Sure.” And he gets it and fiddles with it. And so I reached out to this Pastor Brock and asked him more. And so I want to do this. And so I went into the platform and the program, VRChat. There’s a number of them out there, but this one in particular is a lot of chatting going on. People are engaging one another, and I just jumped in. I’ll share this really quickly. So I’m in my living room and my wife Beth is there and one of my daughters and it’s nighttime and I put it on and I’m like, “Okay, I’m going to do this.”
(08:07):
And I get in there; I’m kind of looking around. So I’m physically in my living room with the headset and I’m looking around and all of a sudden, I saw this creature, like this ball and then these little eyes on top and then a voice came and it was a really young kid. He says, “I’m not scary. I’m just young.” And then just scurried off. I thought, “Whoa.”
Dave (08:33):
So you design your own little—what do you call it?
Frank (08:35):
You can make your own
Jonathan:
—avatar.
Dave:
—avatars.
Frank:
—avatar, yeah. And this particular avatar, it just caught me off guard and I just kind of turned all over and it was like right next to me. And I was like, “Wow.” And so I started exploring. I started talking to some friends and, “Hey, we want to do that.” And they started going and that’s how I got into virtual reality. Now there’s a number of—the term I’ve heard is platforms or applications. There’s a bunch of them out there, but this particular one that Ober and I go is primarily set up for conversation and talking. It’s VRChat. Now there are games, people play pool and hide and seek and there’s a bunch of games, but a lot of worlds are just set up to have conversations.
Dave (09:15):
I mean, is it generally as you walk in, like let’s talk VRChat, is it generally light and up or is there darkness?
Ann (09:24):
Yeah, parents are like, “This sounds dangerous.”
Dave (09:26):
I mean, immediately when you said a little kid, a parent goes, “Oh, this is where trafficking and bad things happen.”
Frank (09:32):
Yeah, there is bad things.
Dave (09:33):
So I’m sure there’s some of that. And the other side is thinking about guys like you going in there with the light of Jesus like, “Wow, that’s a really good thing.” So is it both and?
Jonathan (09:42):
Yeah, I would say it’s both and. I mean, there are definitely worlds that are like, you’re going to go to a bar or a nightclub or worse. And within those, because even though there’s a limitation, an age restriction of like you need to be 13 and up, nobody follows that. And so there are little kids in there and there’s other spaces where you might go in and you can say whatever you want. Nobody’s policing the language. Now, as users, once you’re in there, if somebody is specifically like you maybe have some racism or some very coarse language and that you can click on them and you can mute them so that you just don’t have to hear it. And I’ve done that. I think you’ve probably done that too.
Frank (10:22):
You can even go a step further and then just like hide them from view like they don’t even exist. Boom, they’re gone. They could be right in front of you and they disappear.
Jonathan (10:30):
Yeah. And I was going to say on top of like you had shared a little bit about your kids and experiencing you being in there, I have two daughters and both of them have been in, not necessarily in VRChat, but I know one of my daughters, she and I have gone in together with the same idea of like, “Hey, let’s have conversation with people.” Because I’m 43, some people, as soon as you say like, “Hey, I’m 43” if they ask and I’m like, “Yeah, I’m 43.” And they’re like, “Oh, I’m done. I’m not having a conversation with you.”
Ann (10:57):
Yeah.
Jonathan (10:57):
Or they find out you start sharing about Jesus, sometimes that turns people off. And so my daughter, who is 16, who has been going in VR for probably three years now—so right at the 13 age—she can go in and have conversations that I will never have. And she shares Jesus and shares things that she’s learning. She’s at a Christian school, so she’s learning Bible verses. She’s learning the stories, the passages, and she’s sharing with these other people and making friends, playing games, making friends and sharing Jesus.
Dave (11:29):
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Ann (11:40):
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Ann (12:01):
Is this your ministry? You’re both on FamilyLife staff, but is this kind of like a way that you evangelize and it’s ministry?
Frank (12:10):
Well, actually I am with another team in Cru.
Ann (12:13):
That’s right.
Frank (12:13):
Actually, two teams but originally my main team—actually now I’m kind of serving on two teams—is neither of them were really doing this at first and I wasn’t all plugged in. So I really felt like I love field ministry. I love to share my faith. I love to go with other people, learn with them, do it with them.
Ann (12:31):
You’ve been a missionary in Turkey.
Frank (12:32):
Right. So we were there in the Middle East a number of years and I love it. I missed it. And so lunchtime afforded me like, Hey, right here at the headquarters, I could just put this on and press it in one minute. I’m connected. And so we started doing this at lunch and it was a ministry and it is a ministry. As it turned out, Jesus Film has actually put together a team where now they’re focusing on virtual reality.
Dave:
Really?
Frank:
And so I’m part-time with Jesus film.
Dave:
What’s that look like?
Ann:
That’s Incredible.
Frank:
Yeah. And so they’ve got a team that’s focused on AI and VR, and these are two focal points and they week in and week out, and so now I can do it partly as a role and still a ministry. I mean, evenings, weekends sometimes like I do. But it started off as lunch and the group that goes together at lunch, and actually just this last time when Ober was there, we’ve got a group of us that every week goes in and just we assemble, we come into a room, we talk a little bit how you’re doing.
Ann (13:30):
Do you all go into the same room?
Frank (13:31):
Go to the same room.
Jonathan (13:32):
We start out at a spot that we have picked out as far as like this is our hub and we go in there and we talk a little bit, share a little bit about what’s going on in each other’s lives as well as praying for our next step for where we’re going to go.
Frank (13:44):
And then two by two or sometimes three, sometimes all four of us say, “Hey, let’s go check out that world.” And you can scroll and you say, “What about that world today?” Or “Oh, my friend Jim is there. Let’s go visit him.” And every week we just go, we go out. And I will say this too, it’s exciting that this team with the Jesus film, one of our friends, Stewart, who is actually been—he actually, the Lord used the VR to help bring him to Christ and he’s returned to continue to do this. This is his main role. This is his main thing. We’re doing it part-time as a ministry, but yeah, it’s growing and the Jesus film team has got a dedicated team to reach these people.
Dave (14:25):
I mean, it’s really, you guys know this. It’s what happens on college campuses even today with Cru, with different ministries where they huddle, they pray, let’s go out. My first ever Christian meeting on the Ball State campus where I was playing quarterback. I’d just come to Christ. I go to this; it’s called Prime Time. It was Cru, right?
Frank (14:47):
I remember.
Dave (14:48):
And my discipler was a married student, said, “You got to go to this meeting.” And again, I’m brand new and I’m like walking to it embarrassed.
Ann (14:56):
So it’s like you’re going to a portal.
Dave (14:59):
Yeah. I mean, everything you just described, I experienced that night. I go—this is pretty funny though. I sit in the back row. I didn’t know anybody. And Bill, my buddy wasn’t there and then the guy gets up to give the message, you won’t believe this. He goes, “Hey, tonight’s going to be a little different. Instead of me speaking, we’re going to pair up two by two, and we’re going to go out to the campus and share the gospel.” He says, “So find somebody—” And I get up and I’m out because I’m like, “No, I’m brand new. This is not what—” And I’m literally walking through the lobby of this dorm area and I’m going back to my dorm room and Bill comes running in. He goes, “Where are you going?” I go, “Bill, they’re going out to share Christ. That’s not me.”
(15:41):
He goes, “No, no, you go with me.” I go, “No, Bill, I don’t know.” “No, you don’t even have to talk. You pray; I’ll talk.” So I go, this is pretty funny. First guy, open door, we go in, I’m sitting on a bed.
Ann (15:54):
It’s just what you guys are doing virtually.
Dave (15:56):
I mean when you said this like, “Wow, this is still able to do it in a—” Anyway, I’ll end with this. This is so funny because I’m sitting on this bed across from this dude and Bill, and Bill’s got The Four Spiritual Laws. This is back in the 70s and he starts talking to this guy. Well, you know what happened? I watched Bill lead this guy to Jesus.
Frank (16:15):
On that first day; that’s wonderful.
Dave (16:16):
It transformed my life. So think of that moment in my life. You’re doing that in a new world; in a world nobody even thinks is possible.
Ann (16:26):
You could have created an avatar that nobody would’ve known.
Dave (16:29):
Yeah.
Ann (16:29):
What are your avatars?
Frank (16:32):
Mine’s an anime figure with the ball cap and this coat. Yeah. I used to be a raccoon and I was like, “Okay, I think I’ll switch it now.” And I mean, you can do anything, a dragon, you could make a Ball State quarterback avatar. It’d be easy enough and just design it and walk around.
Dave (16:49):
I don’t think that would be very attractive, but what do you—
Jonathan (16:51):
So my name is Jonathan, and so I go in as Jonathan from Hotel Transylvania, which is an animated movie. And the reason I chose is because one, we share the same name, and two, he is someone that when people see him, they’re like, “Oh, you’re—” And I’m like, “Jonathan from Hotel Transylvania” and that starts a conversation because it’s something that is familiar. And so that’s why I’ve chosen that avatar. You can go and be a Teenage Ninja Turtle or Spider-Man or Lego Spider-Man or a cat or a dog, like a dragon. There are, again, if you think it, somebody probably made an avatar for it.
Dave (17:29):
Really?
Jonathan (17:30):
Yeah.
Frank (17:30):
Yeah. And the worlds in VRChat, I read somewhere they say there’s 25,000 worlds that people have made. We each get a home world when you first sign up, you just get your own little space, but anything, I mean, this studio, you can just make it exactly. You can put tables and chairs and light everything. You can go in and walk around in a VRChat world that is just like this.
Ann:
That someone created.
Jonathan (17:54):
That someone created, yeah.
Frank (17:55):
That someone created. I mean, there’s McDonald’s, there’s 7-Eleven, there’s like—
Jonathan (17:59):
There’s a movie theater.
Frank (17:59):
There’s a movie theater. I mean, people, beaches and castles and dungeons and spaceships and tree house, you make whatever you want.
Dave (18:07):
I mean, is there anything negative about stepping into this world and trying to reach people?
Ann (18:13):
Would you allow your kids to do it without any kind of—
Jonathan:
Like unsupervised?
Ann:
Yes.
Jonathan (18:18):
Yeah. First off, as a parent, you need to know your children and you need to understand that there are dangers whenever you’re in virtual spaces, let alone real-life places. And so for our daughters, it was always about the communication. So whenever they would play a video game or go into VR, my thought is always, “What are your plans? What are you going to do?”
Ann (18:37):
Do you say that to them?
Jonathan:
Yes.
Ann:
Yeah. I think it’d be good to instruct parents on how to have those conversations.
Jonathan (18:43):
Now it’s at the point where we have asked them that question enough that now they’re like, “I’m going into VR to play X, Y, Z game,” or “I’m going to play on the Nintendo Switch and I’m going to play Mario Kart” or whatever it might be. And so that’s just, I would say stage one is just communicate what are your plans? Because if we, just as Christians, if we go into spaces where we don’t have a plan, then usually the bad things happen or things we don’t intend to happen. And so that would be part one. And then part two is just being wise in what they’re doing. So like if they say, “I’m going into VRChat.” “Okay, what is VRChat?” if you don’t know what is VRChat? And ask them to kind of show you. There are ways that you can actually cast the headset to a TV or to a phone so that you can see exactly what they’re doing.
Frank (19:29):
Everything you see.
Jonathan (19:30):
So even in the beginning, if you’re like, “Hey, I really want to be a part of this and want to understand what you’re doing, can we cast that to the phone or can we cast that to the TV and then I’ll watch.” And then after a while, hopefully that builds trust in your kid, your student, in what they’re doing and you’ll be able to see like, “Hey, maybe this isn’t the best place to go.” The other thing is I would say, our daughters have friends that are also doing this, so they’re going in together. So if they’re not going with me, they’re going with a friend and then it’s just our policy that you need to stay together. It’s easy to get lost in some of those places in terms of someone coming and maybe badgering you. If you are trying to share the love of Jesus and you’re sharing the Bible, it’s easy to get distracted.
(20:15):
You see something shiny, you see a new portal and maybe want to go into that, but it’s our policy, stay with your friend or stay with dad when he’s in there. I don’t necessarily need to be a part of those conversations that they’re having with other people, but the cool thing is I can step back as an avatar and my cone of hearing in the game could be right on the cusp of where they’re standing. And so I can still hear them, but I’m not in their space. And so I can build that trust with my student, with my child and see like, okay, they’re doing what they are called to do in this space.
Ann (20:47):
Are there predators in this area that you have to warn your kids about and how would you—
Frank (20:51):
Yeah. When we talk about some of these VR spaces, a number of platforms, VRChat specifically is pretty dark and it’s pretty—technically they have some rules about like hacking and all that, but as far as what people say, what they do, they’re almost anything, they’re just things are happening. And so I like what Ober said, you’re really going with somebody else, going with a group and being there together, but it is very dark in some of these places and just—
Ann (21:17):
And yet you guys are walking into these spaces a lot of times together to be a light.
Frank (21:23):
Yeah, for sure.
Ann (21:23):
So you’re not necessarily saying to your little kids, “Yeah, go on in there.”
Frank (21:26):
Right.
Ann (21:27):
But you’re saying we’d like to go and be a light and impact others for the gospel.
Frank (21:30):
Yeah.
(21:31):
And I will add too, so I mentioned there’s a number of platforms. Roblox is actually one that maybe you’ve heard. I know a lot of parents have kids or grandkids that are playing Roblox on the iPads and their phones and that. So Roblox is, I believe, the largest metaverse platform at this time. I think my friend on the Jesus film team, Bruce was saying, I think there was like over 300 billion monthly active users.
Ann:
Wow.
Frank:
So Roblox is different in that they’re really into security trying to keep it safe because there’s a lot of kids there. They’re aiming this for kids. And so their rules and they will boot people out, they monitor the things you say in that. And so that is a much safer one, although there still are people, predators and trying to go in there, but much different platform. The feel is different.
(22:17):
So if my kid is really into Roblox, I might say, “Hey, you’re playing it, you’re with your friends. Have you thought about how the Lord could use this? How you can be having conversations?” Even simple questions, asking questions, listening to people. And so if people are in Minecraft or Roblox or these spaces already, how can they start working through these spaces for the Lord?
Jonathan (22:40):
One of the things we’ve talked about with our daughters specifically is like digital citizenship. We are citizens of God and what we do in the real world and how we interact with our friends, not talking behind their back and making sure that we’re hospitable to them, to our neighbors, whomever it might be that comes into our life, like we’re citizens. And so in these platforms, we’re digital citizens where just like what we’re doing in real life, are there things that you would do in these VR spaces or in these gaming spaces that you would not do in front of mom and dad or grandma and grandpa? No. Okay, good. Let’s keep that. And so just being a light there and sharing Jesus in whatever they do.
Ann (23:21):
So what’s your goal? Why do you guys do this? What do you hope?
Jonathan (23:24):
I mean, I think the biggest goal is just to redeem a platform that right now doesn’t seem redeemable, but also, I think the underlying is just meeting individuals. Like you said, there are millions of people in Roblox. There are, I think at any given time, I looked up just recently, like 60 to 70,000 people in VRChat. And in those spaces, there’s got to be at least one person that needs to know Jesus, if not tens of thousands.
Dave (23:55):
What a great conversation with Jonathan and Frank about a world most of us don’t even know exists. It’s a metaverse, meta universe, whatever you call it. I mean, it’s a place where a lot of people, not just our children are hanging out.
Ann (24:10):
Did you have any idea how many millions of people are in that world?
Dave (24:15):
No. And the fact that we as parents don’t often know, we need to know. It’s something that will help us. And we’re going to help you. Frank and Jonathan put together a Metaverse Ministry toolkit just for you and we have it at FamilyLifeToday.com. Just click on the link in the show notes and this will get you started to help navigate this metaverse. And guess what? We’re going to talk about it again tomorrow, so join us back tomorrow.
Ann (24:43):
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