148 Dealing With A Narcissist

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Blended^®

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Season 6, Episode 148: Dealing with A Narcissist

Guest:            Laurel Slade-Waggoner, MS

Air Date:        October 7, 2024

Laurel: At its core, I think narcissism is a stuntedness. It’s a lack of development. They kind of get stuck in childhood because there was some invalidation that occurred. So people struggle with narcissism. They can’t tolerate shame. They avoid it at all costs. So there’s two experiences that people with a true narcissistic personality disorder cannot tolerate. And that’s an experience of shame and an experience of a loss of control because they’re not used to it. They weren’t taught that that is part of life.

Ron: Welcome to the FamilyLife Blended Podcast. I’m Ron Deal. We help blended families, and those who love them, pursue the relationships that matter most. And why do we do that, you ask? Because we think there’s great joy in loving God and loving others. And it makes the world a better place.

I’ve got a question for you. Does it seem like the world is now full of narcissists? I mean That’s a word and a diagnosis that gets thrown around a lot these days. And what if you’re married to a narcissist? Or divorced from and co-parenting with a narcissist? What do you do then? Well, that is the subject of our episode today. So listen for yourself or listen to support somebody else that you love.

My guest is Laurel Slade-Wagoner. She’s a licensed counselor and licensed marriage and family therapist. The author of, love these titles, Don’t Let Their Crazy Make You Crazy: How to Stay Sane and Strong When the Narcissist in Your Life is Trying to Control or Abuse You. She’s also written another book, Don’t Let Their Crazy Make Your Kids Crazy: How to Shield Your Children from Their Narcissistic Parent’s Control and Manipulation. Yeah, are you intrigued already? So am I. That’s why we’re going to talk to her.

She works with individuals and families dealing with narcissistic family members. She’s the host of a podcast on this subject. She and her husband live in Tampa, Florida. They have a blended family, which includes five adult children and two grandchildren. Laurel, thank you so much for being with me today.

Laurel: Well, thank you for inviting me. I’m so excited to be here and just talk with you and hopefully share some of the things that God has shared with me that can help people.

Ron: Yeah. Well, we’ve been talking about this for a long time, trying to make this happen, and we’ve had a couple of speed bumps, but here we are. I’ve been looking forward to it. This is your area of clinical specialty, but you also have a personal story as well. Let’s start with that. Tell us your background.

Laurel: Well, where would you like me to begin?

Ron: Well, I know you were married to someone who had narcissistic personality disorder, correct?

Laurel: Yes. So I grew up with narcissistic parents, a lot of chaos, a lot of irresponsibility. So I kind of learned and got desensitized to narcissism. And so what happens when we grow up in narcissism is we don’t really recognize it. And so I married someone who was clinically narcissistic, struggled with addictions, and got two amazing, beautiful boys from that marriage. But now I have a nice, blended family, like you said, five between us, oldest 35, youngest 23 and 23.

Ron: Oh, wow, that’s really great.

Laurel: So we had all the stresses of blending and having four teenagers in the home at the same time. We got married when they were older.

Ron: And you survived.

Laurel: Yeah. And I love your ministry. Your ministry is so important.

Ron: Well, thank you and yay, God. And likewise, you’ve been able to help a lot of people like me understand working with people with narcissism a little bit better. Let’s step back for a minute. Is it just me or is it sort of in vogue right now to label somebody narcissistic?

Laurel: Yeah, and I’m so glad that you brought that up because I think that culture has stolen that word, and it has diluted the potency and really the horror of what someone who is clinically narcissistic brings to relationships. So they bring a gross imbalance of power and respect and responsibility, and it just creates all kinds of pain and chaos. So it’s not— what I deal with when I say narcissistic personality disorder is not this same as what culture is saying narcissism is.

Ron: Right. Right. I think that’s so important and that’s really where I wanted to go next. Thanks for that beautiful transition because there is a difference between what’s called narcissistic personality disorder and somebody who just has narcissistic traits or qualities about them.

Laurel: Yes.

Ron: Let’s start there. Help us understand the difference between those two things.

Laurel: Well, I think we all have narcissistic traits. Biblically speaking. It says that we all fall short of the glory of God. We’re all imperfect, we’re all fallen. We all were raised by imperfect people. We live in an imperfect world. And so we all can be selfish. We all can lose our temper at times. We can treat others with a lack of empathy at times if we’re stressed out. That’s not what I’m talking about.

In order for someone to have a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, and this is just my professional opinion and experience, I believe they need to meet full criteria for a personality disorder, in general, according to our DSM-5-TR. And so that is a longstanding, enduring pattern of cognitive rigidity where they’re not open to looking at things from a new perspective. They’re not open to looking at themselves or circumstances from a different perspective.

If you want to talk according to the Bible, the Bible says someone who’s wise adds to their learning. I’m talking about someone who flat out refuses to add to their learning, won’t collaborate, and then trying to protect that control, they treat people with a lack of empathy. They engage in a lot of interpersonal exploitation and control and abuse toward others.

Ron: Let me break some of that down into some user-friendly language for people, interpersonal manipulation and exploitation. Somebody with real NPD, we’ll call it narcissistic personality disorder, they use people and they’re going to take full advantage of them for their own personal gain. I mean, yes, you’re right. We’re all selfish. We all have qualities about us and at some moments we’re more selfish than others in life. But no, you’re talking about somebody who has a pervasive, longstanding pattern of taking full advantage of other people.

Laurel: Yes.

Ron: And completely using them for their own personal gain. That as well as some of these other qualities and attributes that are outlined in that manual that we use in the mental health world to help diagnose people. And so that’s the difference long term, and that manipulation.

And they have a sense of grandiosity too. Talk a little bit around that. What would that look like in real life?

Laurel: So in order for me to give somebody a diagnosis of narcissistic personality disorder, like I was saying earlier, they have to have five of the nine criteria. So yes, you touched on it, the grandiosity, the obsessed with ideal, intellect, love, pursuit of grandiose things. You said it earlier. They attach to object. They objectify people. They don’t attach to people, they attach to ideas, they attach to things and pursuits. So they treat people with a lack of empathy. They’re often envious of other people or believe people are envious of them. They sometimes have that haughtiness, that superiority complex where they think they’re better than other people. They think they’re special and other people are lowly. So they’ll only want to associate with “other special people” according to what they value. It’s just very destructive to be around them

Ron: Is entitlement, again, this is not just everyday entitlement. Otherwise every teenager would be narcissistic, or self-absorption would be every person who’s ever had a problem in life, and you just couldn’t get away from it for a while. No, we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about this pervasive pattern, long-term pattern of just feeling entitled and superior and special.

Laurel: They have an excessive need for admiration. So they need a feeding system. So they really don’t place a value on intimacy because they don’t like vulnerability, but they need this excessive amount of attention. And I would add, it’s not a clinical criteria, but what I see is a lot of duplicity. So there’s a lot of abuse going on behind closed doors, but out in public, they could be very charming, or they’re very well liked and very well respected, but behind closed doors, they might be extremely controlling and disrespecting and treating someone as an object.

Ron: In just a minute, we’re going to get into, how do you live with somebody who has NPD or how do you co-parent, be divorced from, but yet co-parenting with somebody who has NPD? But before we get there, just one last time, I want to ask you why is it important not to label somebody NPD if they’re not? I’m imagining somebody’s listening to us right now or watching on YouTube, and they saw it in the title, “Narcissist, oh, that’s my ex. I know that’s them.” And they came listening, looking for validation for all the difficulties that they’ve been facing, and now we’ve kind of laid out for them, well, here’s really what narcissism is. And it could be that they’re realizing that they’ve been labeling somebody a certain way when really maybe that wasn’t warranted. So one more time, why is it important not to over label, if I could say it that way?

Laurel: Well, I think it’s very dangerous to over label or self-diagnose. I mean, there’s a reason we have a diagnostic manual. So if I’m going for a physical disorder, I’m not going to self-diagnose. I’m going to get my information from the experts and sometimes get two or three opinions if it’s a serious enough disorder. And so I would recommend just as a protocol that people refrain from labeling another person because that’s not what this is about. We don’t have a diagnostic manual to shame someone or to flippantly say that they are this particular kind of person. So I would encourage people to do due diligence before labeling someone.

Ron: That’s really good. As you were talking, I was thinking of somebody with NPD really has a hard time changing, and if you over label somebody, then you in your mind have already put them into the category of, “Oh, they’ll never change.” So guess what? You then go into a mode of not giving them an opportunity to change. And so you become part of the no change process.

Laurel: Right, that confirmation bias, so then you’re looking for evidence to support what you are supposing.

Ron: Exactly. Exactly. It is important to say there is this thing called narcissistic personality disorder, and there are other things that we look at and go, “Well, that was sort of narcissistic of me,” or “of them,” but that doesn’t mean that they have NPD. We got to be careful that we don’t necessarily over label a former spouse or a current family member.

We got that out of the way. Now let’s turn the corner and let’s assume you are living with, or dealing with, or married to, or used to be married to and now co-parenting with somebody who does have NPD. What should our listeners know about living with somebody with NPD?

Laurel: Well, I would say if we can just break down those different relationships. So if you are married to someone who has narcissistic personality disorder, I say we invite them into a plan of change. So we invite them into relating to us in a healthy way. I call it a Joshua 24:15 plan because Joshua 24:15 is if serving the Lord’s undesirable to you, you are free to choose what gods you serve. It’s all about free will. It’s all about free choice. And so we want to assume the best and invite people into a plan of change. Tell that person what they’re doing that’s hurting you and give them an opportunity to collaborate and make some changes.

If they refuse, that’s when you start to see, “Okay, now this person is just saying my feelings don’t matter, that I just need to be not so needy or not so sensitive.” If they’re using some of those narcissistic ways of interacting, that blame shifting, that trying to get you to make decisions out of fear, obligation or guilt just to silence you so that they can continue in those behaviors, that’s when you want to start getting some other eyes on it. So you want to work the process that God gives us. He has amazing processes, so we speak the truth in love. We invite somebody into a plan of change. If they don’t want to do that, then maybe we get some other people that love that person and say, “Hey, have you thought about working with your spouse on this?” So you want to get other eyes on it.

And then they won’t listen to those people, maybe get a counselor involved. If they won’t listen to the counselor, get a pastor involved. And then if they still are continuing to harm the one who’s behaving in a non-narcissistic way, then you might have to use the redemptive tool separation. And so I’ve worked this plan with my ex-husband. I told my boys exactly what we were doing, praying for him, that he would want to do things God’s way and want things to work out, but ultimately it is his choice, and we have to let him have his free will. He chose not to work on the marriage and so we have to respect that and let them go.

Ron: Is there an example, a specific example you could give us just from your own marriage of, here’s something we invited him into, and it wouldn’t change?

Laurel: So my ex had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol. He would drink a lot of alcohol several nights a week. And so saying, please don’t drink alcohol when we’re at the boys’ sporting events or don’t come home at a certain time, don’t go out drinking. Or we tried all different invitations with him, none of which he wanted to do. What happens if someone doesn’t want to change like that, then telling me I’m too needy or uptight and to back off and to not being nice, that’s not what a good Christian person does. He felt condemned, I think, by the fact that I didn’t like his relationship with alcohol. But to me it was a very toxic circumstance and very dangerous for the boys.

Ron: Yeah, I can see how it would be. And again, to our listener, viewers, that wasn’t the only thing you were seeing. There was all these other pervasive indications that we’ve been talking a little bit around, also evident as well. So when you invited him in and you invite other people to the table—by the way, could that be for somebody who’s listening going, “I’m just not sure if the situation I’m dealing with is that serious or if it’s just sort of a quality or trait in this person,” I would think if you did invite somebody in, somebody else who cared about the person, “Could you join us in this?” and if the person eventually does change, then you know they’re not necessarily the full-blown narcissistic personality disorder. Isn’t that part of the discernment is making efforts to invite change and then if you discover that eventually, then that’s a good way of knowing what you were not dealing with?

Laurel: Exactly. I don’t want people to think that we say, “Oh, this sin is equated with narcissism and this sin isn’t.” You really go back to the clinical criteria for having a personality disorder, that absolute obstinate cognitive rigidity. They will not see things from a different perspective. So my ex-husband did not want to see his relationship with alcohol in any other way other than the way that he thought about it. And so they’re just going to keep repeating those same behaviors and try to squash down anyone who tries to take that away from them.

Ron: You kind of said something a minute ago I wanted to follow up on. Sometimes when you’re dealing with somebody who just acts like they know everything and they’re so superior to everybody else in the room and they’re very grandiose about what they can accomplish versus what other people can accomplish. Again, they see themselves as better than everybody else, and that’s an element to it. But at the same time, don’t they sometimes have a pretty fragile ego that’s easily damaged when somebody has some criticism to offer?

Laurel: Exactly. They present as superior, but a lot of time that’s a mask for the inferiority so at its core I think narcissism is a stuntedness. It’s a lack of development. They kind of get stuck in childhood because there was some invalidation that occurred. So whether it was abuse or neglect, or sometimes it comes in the form of a prosperity of affirmation or being given everything that they ask for so that creates that sense of entitlement. So they don’t necessarily have to endure negative abuse, but neglect comes when all we give our kids are positive affirmation and we don’t help their character develop. We don’t teach them about the realities of living life and help their character develops.

So people struggle with narcissism. They can’t tolerate shame. Their parents never taught them what to do with shame. So they avoided at all costs. So there’s two experiences that people with a true narcissistic personality just cannot tolerate. And that’s an experience of shame and an experience of a loss of control because they’re not used to it. They weren’t taught that that is part of life.

Ron: So will they, for example, just fight to get that control back, whatever they have to do, blame you or shift or that kind of thing?

Laurel: Exactly. So that’s where the interactional patterns of dealing with someone with a personality disorder, narcissistic personality disorder. There’s blame shifting. There’s gaslighting which are trying to make you think that you are too something—too needy, too sensitive. They make you doubt your sanity, your strength, your goodness. So they will exploit, manipulate, either overtly or covertly to make sure that they maintain that power and control. So they try to get people to make decisions out of fear, obligation or guilt, derail, make it all about what they want to talk about, not what the other person needs to talk about.

Ron: As somebody’s listening right now, I imagine they’re thinking, “Oh my goodness, that is what I’m dealing with constantly.” And my guess is you were thinking it was you; that you just hadn’t found the right combination or the right thing to say or the right manner about you that somehow will lead to a softening or a gentleness in your partner, for example. And when somebody comes to that realization that, “Nope, this is about them,” that could be a hard moment, right?

Laurel: Absolutely. So if you get faced with that moment of, “Oh my goodness, this is what I’m married to,” there is help out there. You’re not stuck. I work with tons of people, and I certainly don’t want people to think that if you’re married to somebody who’s narcissistic, the answer is a divorce, because that’s not what I say. You invite them into a plan of change. If they don’t want to change, then you can use that redemptive tool of separation. Sometimes that’s emotional separation. Sometimes that’s an in-house separation. You just need to figure out the level of separation that you need in order to not let that person control you and control your self-worth and control your relationship with what you value and who you value.

Ron: Yeah. Well, and there is help, and I just want to repeat, don’t let their crazy make you crazy, which speaks to, Laurel, follow up on that, somebody maintaining their own identity even in the presence of somebody who can’t empathize for you, can’t really come around, can’t really look at themselves in a different way. How do you stay connected to your identity and to God for strength when you’re living with an NPD person?

Laurel: That’s where the art of detachment comes in. So you have to figure out how to take care of yourself, how to emotionally, cognitively separate yourself from that person. So you build sources of support into your daily activities. You make sure that you have good friends who can encourage you and pray for you and support you. You make sure you’re spending time with God. You make sure you’re taking care of yourself.

Because one of the biggest things I see with someone who is married to someone who has narcissistic personality disorder is they don’t take care of themselves. They’re so frazzled all the time that they’re not taking care of themselves physically. They’re drained so they don’t take care of themselves relationally and keep in contact with friends and a good Christian counselor that can give them some support and some perspective.

So you can still stay married to someone who’s narcissistic. Lots of people have to, they can’t afford to get divorced, or they just don’t believe that divorce is something that they want to do. But you have to find a way to detach within that so that person isn’t taking up so much heart space and head space and controlling your relationships and your comings and goings and things like that.

Ron: One of the things I know you write about is trying to respond in a situation like that out of what you call your wise mind. Is that connected to the detachment idea?

Laurel: Yes, because you don’t want to make decisions. I work with so many precious people that they make decisions out of fear, obligation or guilt, constantly. And so they’re ignoring reason. They’re ignoring truth and scripture about who they are. They’re ignoring even worldly wisdom about what a healthy relationship is. And so we have to operate not just out of feelings, but out of a combination of feelings and reason. That’s being wise. We want to add to our learning. We want to continually grow and make sure that you know that God has a very specific plan for each and every person, and you can’t let somebody take it away just so that they can have power within a relationship.

Ron: Okay, let’s turn the corner. Let’s talk about co-parenting. I know somebody’s been listening to this conversation going, “Get to the co-parenting, get to the co-parenting; that’s what’s driving me crazy.” Their marriage came to an end and for whatever reason, and now you forever share these children and you’re trying to figure out how to navigate that terrain. I’m thinking about detach; you’ve talked about that already. I’m thinking about wise mind making choices. I’m thinking about, don’t let them control you in every way and somehow try to have some self-care so that you’re in a different place. I just want to throw this wide open to you. What are the do’s, and what are the don’ts, when it comes to co-parenting?

Laurel: Well, first of all, I would speak to the people who are maybe divorcing. You want to get a much in the parenting plan and in the marital settlement agreement as possible to prevent as many disagreements with a narcissistic ex as possible. So it sounds kind of silly, but I say put everything in there like braces, school supplies, and a big one is college. Because a lot of narcissistic parents say, “Okay, my kid is 18. I’m not paying for them,” but they’re not really emancipated when they’re 18 and they go off to college for four years. They still need a place to come home to and things like that.

Ron: So you’re saying anticipate as far down the road as you can, all the little things that are potential issues and get it in writing.

Laurel: So if you don’t do that and they are taking you back to court, or if they’re not paying child support or things like that, just use those opportunity to get as much in the paperwork as you possibly can. And then I say keep in mind that they’re not going to listen because remember they have that cognitive rigidity. They don’t care if you’re hurting. They don’t care if you’re frustrated so don’t try to get them to see that their behavior is hurtful. So you have this strategy, you be very strategic when you have to solve a problem with them.

I’m sure you see this with the blending. There’s co-parenting which both parents really want what’s best for the kids, and they can kind of collaborate. The marriage might not have worked, but they can still co-parent. And then there’s parallel parenting where they kind do their own thing at both houses and kids have to adapt.

But then there’s counter parenting, and that’s what I’m talking about where there’s so much opposition, there’s no way to collaborate with them so you have to minimize your interactions. You have to not give them your emotions. You have to be very strategic. I say reduce communication to written. Sometimes you have to reduce it even further and use a parenting app like Our Family Wizard or Talking Parents, because then that’s admissible if—

Ron: You have it documented in case you need to go back to court with it. Okay, so what I’m hearing is you have got to be on the offense. You’ve got to have a plan. You’ve got to know how you’re going to interact with somebody and not let them dictate those terms because

A, you might have to tell a judge someday.

B, you also, if you allow it, they’ll just continue to manipulate and dominate how the interaction takes place.

Laurel: Yes. And then there’s all kinds of strategies I put in the book like, picking your battles, serenity prayer living is a big one, what can you control versus what you can’t control? Sometimes even if they get a blessing, you do what’s right for your kids. You keep the question in your head, “If I do this, what will my children experience?”

So I use the example in the book that I would go pick my children up from the bar if he took them drinking after a travel baseball game. If it were his time, I’d have the boys reach out to me and I’d come and pick them up. Did my ex-husband get a narcissistic blessing because then he didn’t have to be responsible? Yes. But I did it for them. He wasn’t going to change his relationship with alcohol. He didn’t change it while we were married. He’s not going to change it while we’re not married. You pick your battles, and you do what you do to protect the kids.

Ron: And in that example, I’m also hearing there’s a measure of recognizing reality, like, “No, in the normal world I should be able to say ‘No, drop them by before you go to the bar and start drinking.’ but that won’t work. It won’t happen. I can’t assume or expect reasonable decisions and behavior by the other party, so I’m going to have to make sacrifices.” Is that what I’m hearing?

Laurel: Right, exactly. If you say, “Can you please do that?”, then they’re going to say, “You can’t tell me what to do. Everything’s fine. They’ll be fine. You’re being neurotic. You’re being overreactive,” because they don’t want to look at things differently. They do have that. In that grandiosity, they think that everything will be fine. They think they’re special, and that means they’re exempt from negative consequences so they can just do what they want to do when they want to do it without being held accountable.

Ron: Are there any other really big principles that you’ve learned to share with people that are co-parenting about what to do or what not to do?

Laurel: With regard to working with the narcissistic individual, just all of that; taking care of yourself, surrounding yourself with a team. I say if you can build a relationship with an attorney that you can reach out to and have that attorney send letters of reminders if you need to. For example, if they’re not paying child support or they’re doing something that violates the parenting plan, then just a friendly courtesy reminder that this is what the parenting plan said and that they need to comply with that. So if you’ve reached out yourself and they’re not listening, then you just want to make sure you have a second person that can advocate on your behalf and your children’s behalf.

Ron: Let me run something by you. We teach through our ministry and have for years that learning how to act divorced, as I call it, is in part learning to understand that two people who used to be partners, “We’re no longer partners, but we continue to be parents,” and whatever level of cooperation we had while we were married was in part brought about because of the marriage. You’re trying to figure out how to get along. You’re trying to figure out how to be a family. And so sometimes you could pull on each other as husband and wife, if you will, to come around or let’s talk it through, or let’s figure out, let’s press in and try to figure out how we can be a unified team, for example.

But one of the things divorce does, is it steals that motivation from cooperation. All of a sudden, if the other person wasn’t cooperative in the marriage, they’re going to be even less cooperative in your divorce because they don’t have to get along with you. They get to go back to their place, and you have to go back to yours and they really don’t have to make sacrifices on behalf of you. I’m trying to figure out if that’s the same or if it basically comes down to, they really weren’t even cooperative, a narcissistic partner, when you were married, or does it maybe even get worse in the divorce? Do you understand what I’m asking?

Laurel: I think even healthy individuals, the stress of the divorce process, yes. Like envisioning the one flesh ripped in half and trying to figure out how to be divorced and build a whole nother life. Yes, it gets difficult. You do lose that motivation for cooperation but reminding yourself that it’s about the kids now. Just because the marriage is dissolved doesn’t mean that the kid’s wellbeing doesn’t need to be prioritized.

I have heard of lots of marriages that haven’t worked out, but they still can co-parent. They still both love the kids. That’s not what I’m talking about. What I’m talking about is counter parenting. Sometimes they’re horrible to their children. They’re very reactive with their children or they use their children as pawns. They treat their children with a lack of empathy. They’re not really putting first and foremost the children’s best interests. They’re just wanting things their way and sometimes they want to punish the ex-spouse. Also making sure that you’re doing all kinds of activities to nurture your relationship with your children.

Ron: Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit more about that. I’m thinking, “How do you coach children who have an NPD parent?” Whether it’s still in your home or in the other home at this point because you’re already divorced. How do you help them understand what’s going on with mom or dad?

Laurel: Well, you’ve got to be their safe place; create an atmosphere of trust and security so that they feel comfortable talking to you, being nonjudgmental. That’s what the whole kids’ book is about. And so I really just took a bunch of counseling sessions that I would have with kids experiencing divorce and put it in that book. So you teach them about healthy relating.

So you don’t want to badmouth the other parent, but you want to call sin, sin. You want to say, “This is not okay” if they’re enduring something over at that other house that isn’t okay. And you want to equip them with plans of action of what they can do if some unhealthy things are going on. So the more you can proactively teach them about what a healthy relationship is, that mutual openness and honesty, that mutual effort, that mutual respect for time and feeling and priorities and having the mutual ability to repent and to modify their behavior, ask for forgiveness.

And so even very little children, you start talking to them about these concepts, about boundaries, about what to do if someone hurts your feelings, about who God created in the person of them. So you notice who God created in the person of them, and you nurture that, and you respect that. Those are things that the kids, they absolutely need, and they crave at some level, even though they might not know it. And then they’re going to draw their own conclusions about what is going on at that narcissistic parents’ house. So you don’t have to say, and I strongly recommend that you don’t say, “Oh, your parent is narcissistic. Your other parent is narcissistic.”

Ron: Don’t label them to the kids.

Laurel: Exactly. But you do want, if there’s behaviors going on, you want to teach them that those behaviors are not okay. And in extreme cases, sometimes I will tell parents, you document, if you have children who are saying, “I don’t want to go to the other parent’s house. Daddy screams at me constantly” or “Daddy’s drunk and he just passes out and then I have to put myself to bed.” or “Daddy’s fighting with his girlfriend all the time, or his new wife all the time, and there’s screaming and throwing things,” that’s not okay.

So you want to teach the kids what to do in those circumstances, but you might also have to say, “Okay, well, I’m not going to force you to go over there.” You document, you start a chart, you get some legal intervention to say, “What are my options here as far as protecting my kids?” because you don’t want to be abusive by sending them into an abusive environment.

Ron: And you also don’t want that to come back against you because the court didn’t understand the circumstances. And so yes, you want to try to pull somebody in and document the reason for whatever change you made in sending the child over there.

I just think what you just said is really good and I want to add to it for our listeners. One of the things that we talk about is when you need to comment to a child about their parent’s behavior, how you go about it is really, really important. As you said, you want to talk about that behavior, not necessarily label the parent, but you do want to talk about the behavior.

But if you talk about it in a way that is condemning and that is communicating to the child, “I hate your mom, and you should too,” that’s not the way to go. What you want to do is talk about the behavior in a tone that is almost sad for the parent, in a way that is kind about them; that is gentle in how you present it, as if you’re asking the child, “Let’s be concerned about what’s going on with mom,” and here’s something that she’s seen, and “I know that’s not healthy for her or for you, and so let’s talk about how you’re going to handle that.”

The implied message with that tone is, “We still love your mom. We still care about her. We want good things for her.” And that is so very important. You can still, well, I guess that’s speaking the truth in love. It just takes some discipline on your part to be able to do that.

Laurel: Exactly. I don’t want people to get the impression that I hate narcissists. I love narcissists. I love people. I hate narcissism. And the goal is to hate what God hates. God hates abuse, and God hates being overpowered. And so He has a plan of action to stop those kinds of toxic power dynamics within relationships, but it’s all out of love. We do speak the truth in love. We do pray for the people who are narcissistic. We encourage our children to pray for their narcissistic parent.

And so a tree is known by its fruit, the Bible says. And so we deal in specifics, not generalities or labels. We say that specific behavior is not okay, and this is why it’s not okay, and it makes me very sad that mommy or daddy is doing that, and let’s work with God to do our part so that they’re moved toward getting help and separating themselves from that behavior.

Ron: Wow, there’s so much self-regulation in all of this. Take a deep breath and say, “Lord, what would you have me to do?” and “How do I maintain myself in front of my children?” and “How do I keep from getting hooked by the accusations and the blame that’s getting shifted toward me from the other household?” All of those things just take so much self-control and it’s difficult.

I like what you said earlier about the serenity prayer living; that sort of attitude of, “Lord, you got to help me because there’s so much of this I can’t change, but just help me to manage me in the midst of it.” I know there’s a bunch of scenarios that we could walk through.

I got one more question for you before we close. Let me just throw an example at you. What if the NPD parent throws a last-minute demand on you? Maybe it’s about taking the kids, and they want to go on a trip out of state or something like that. How do you respond to that insistence, that demand that you need to let me do what I’ve dreamed up doing?

Laurel: Once again, I love strategies. I love protocols and memorizing these different strategies, but in that case, the very next step would be to pull out your parenting plan, to take a picture of that part of the parenting plan and send it to the narcissistic spouse that says, “Thank you for wanting to make their spring break fun by wanting to take them on a trip. Pursuant to the parenting plan, we need to both agree upon this 30 days—you needed to do a 30-day request in writing, and so I’m going to decline and say no to that.” You want to remind them of the parenting plan and that they’re out of compliance of that parenting plan. Then if they say, “I’m taking them anyway,” that’s where you get the legal intervention. That’s why I say start interviewing and find an attorney that you can have as your attorney to go to should these kinds of issues arise.

Ron: That’s good. I can see how empowering that is to have a parenting plan to reference. It becomes the standard. You can hold them to that, and you can say no if you need to because of it.

Laurel:            Yes.

Ron:    Wow.

Laurel:            And that’s why I say put as much in the parenting plan as you possibly can.

Ron:    Laurel, thank you so much for being with me today. I appreciate your expertise and it’s a gift, really. For people who are listening, anything that helps them get some rails to run on is really important. So thank you for your time.

Laurel: Oh, well, thank you for what you do too.

Ron: Well, if you want to learn more about Laurel’s resources and podcast, check the show notes. We’ll help you find some more. And if you haven’t subscribed to this podcast and you haven’t subscribed on YouTube, whichever you prefer, please do that. We don’t want you to miss a future episode.

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Well, next time, it’s a very special edition of Growing Up in a Blender series. Laura Husband will talk about the death of her father, astronaut Rick Husband, when space shuttle Columbia; that’s the shuttle that he was commanding when it broke apart on reentry into the atmosphere in 2003. She will talk about that very personal loss. She’ll talk about being at the center of a national tragedy and then later what it was like to become part of a stepfamily. That’s next time on FamilyLife Blended.

I’m Ron Deal. Thanks for listening. And thank you to our production team of donors who make this podcast possible.

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