FamilyLife Blended® Podcast

156 Playing Hurt: A Guy’s Strategy for a Winning Marriage

January 27, 2025
MP3 Download

What does the apostle Paul mean in Philippians 2:4 when he says, “Do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others?” How do we apply that to marriage, and to relationships in a blended family?

In this podcast episode, Ron Deal talks with Brian Goins, author of Playing Hurt, A Guy’s Strategy for a Winning Marriage, about taking care of our own needs and always being mindful of the needs of our spouse. Goins explains that marriage is about finding the motivation and resolve to stay in the game despite the pain and calls husbands to be the heroes they long to be–men who play hurt in order to win at marriage.

FamilyLife Blended® Podcast
FamilyLife Blended® Podcast
156 Playing Hurt: A Guy’s Strategy for a Winning Marriage
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Show Notes

About the Guest

Photo of Brian Goins

Brian Goins

Brian and his wife Jen love building into families and eating great food together. They have three children who all want to move to Montana. Brian serves as Sr. Director Special Projects at FamilyLife. He is also the executive producer on an adolescent-focused documentary series called Brain, Heart, World (brainheartworld.org) aimed at helping change the conversation about pornography in our country and has written Playing Hurt: A Guy’s Strategy for a Winning Marriage.

About the Host

Photo of Ron Deal

Ron Deal

Ron L. Deal is one of the most widely read and viewed experts on blended families in the country. He is Director of FamilyLife Blended® for FamilyLife®, founder of Smart Stepfamilies™, and the author and Consulting Editor of the Smart Stepfamily Series of books including the bestselling Building Love Together in Blended Families: The 5 Love Languages® and Becoming Stepfamily Smart (with Dr. Gary Chapman), The Smart Stepfamily: 7 Steps to a Healthy Family, and Preparing to Blend. Ron is a licensed marriage and family therapist, popular conference speaker, and host of the FamilyLife Blended podcast. He and his wife, Nan, have three sons and live in Little Rock, Arkansas. Learn more at FamilyLife.com/blended.

Episode Transcript

Season 7, Episode 156: Playing Hurt: A Guy’s Strategy for a Winning Marriage

Guest:Brian Goins
Air Date: January 27, 2025

 

Brian: But what I found in marriage soon after I got married is I get a little bruised ego, and I want to find the bench and I can sulk with the best of them. I can pout, I can get angry, but that’s the moment where when you look at Ephesians 5 and Paul says, husband’s you’re to love your wives, like Christ loves the church. And then what’s the example that he gives? The example that he’s gives is Christ dying on the cross for the church. And so you sit there and go, that’s actually when I need to be in the game is when I’m most feeling pain for my spouse.
Ron: Welcome to the FamilyLife Blended podcast. I’m Ron Deal. We help blended families and those who love them pursue the relationships that matter most. And why do we do that, you ask? Well, because we believe in this crazy idea that there is great joy in loving God and loving others, and it seems to make the world a better place. I got my good friend Brian Goins sitting beside me.
Brian: Yes, I love that.
Ron: How are you?
Brian: You don’t have to be miserable in your own marriage.
Ron: No, you don’t.
Brian: You can actually make it work, and you do such a great job of helping so many people do that, Ron.
Ron: Thank you.
Brian: It’s an honor to be sitting here with you.
Ron: Well, I appreciate that very much. So if you don’t know who Brian is, he is a colleague and a trusted voice here at FamilyLife. He’s Senior Director of Strategic Experiences, which is a great title.
Brian: We can put a lot under there that nobody knows what it is.
Ron: Let me tell you what it means. It means that if you have ever been to a FamilyLife Weekend to Remember event, a President’s Getaway, our marriage cruise, or if you’ve ever watched The Art of Marriage™, our signature video curriculum for married couples, then you have benefited from Brian’s creativity and ability to communicate.
Brian: Fortunately, not just me, I’ve had some great friends that have been working on that, and you’ve helped out with a lot of those, all those as a matter of fact.
Ron: I just don’t—
Brian: We get to work together.
Ron: I have poquito, a little role, but Brian helps produce all that stuff, helps create content for all that stuff. But I got to tell our audience what you’re most famous for.
Brian: Yes, please. I would like—
Ron: Because you have no idea what to say—
Brian: I have no idea what’s next.
Ron: What you’re most famous for is that you have appeared on our podcast before.
Brian: Yes.
Ron: Episode number 97. We interviewed Brian about protecting your kids from pornography.
Brian: Oh man. Yeah, and I think that was the last time I was in this podcast studio in your offices.
Ron: And so we were talking about Brain, Heart World. Tell our audience for anybody who doesn’t know.
Brian: Yeah, absolutely.
Ron: Give him 30 seconds.
Brian: Yeah, real quick. I just had this burden because I see all these kids that are dealing with pornography, whether in Christian schools or public schools, and it is wrecking a generation, keeping them from really relating to each other. And so we went the public health route. We went instead of asking the question, is porn right or wrong? We asked the question, is it worth it? And it’s amazing how science always catches up to scripture.
And so we talk about the three big consequences of pornography use: how it affects your brain, and there’s science that all backs it up; how it affects your heart, the relationships that you’re in; and what kind of damage is it doing to the world, and especially in the realm of sex trafficking and damage to women and just all kinds of stuff. And so it is a three-part series. You can watch it for free. Brainheartworld.com, and it’s a great discussion with your kids. It’s designed for that. Anywhere from seventh grade on up. Obviously, be considerate of where your kids are in that conversation, but it is designed for the youth to watch and have a conversation with their parents.
Ron: So there it is folks. If you haven’t listened to episode 97, you need to listen to it because you’re going to get a whole lot more of an overview of what that series is all about. Brian and his wife Jen, who by the way—
Brian: I thought that’s who you could say I was most famous for is married to Jen.
Ron: That’s pretty good. I was going to say Jen is a gem, I like to say.
Brian: Yes, she is.
Ron: She is a marvelous person. They’re revising a book that Brian previously wrote called Playing Hurt. That’s what we’re going to talk about today. We’re going to get to that in just a minute. That’s why he’s here with me.
But first I wanted to share with you a note we got from Brianne. Brianne said, “I read several of your books this past week and just want to thank you for all the work that you do to encourage stepfamilies. I felt so alone and hopeless these past few years and your books have validated my experience.” Well, I’m thrilled to hear that, Brianne, that warms my heart. But I hope that you know that we’ve just released my first book for all couples, and I have to tell you, Brianne, what I consider to be the most important book that I’ve written for blended family couples.
It’s called The Mindful Marriage. It just came out a couple of weeks ago. Nan and I actually co-authored that together along with some dear, dear friends of ours, family therapist, Dr. Terry and Sharon Hargrave. In fact, really the book is based on all of their material and their brilliant work that they’ve spent years and years and years developing. I characterize this stuff, Brian, as it’s part discipleship, it’s part neuroscience, it’s part attachment theory. Put it all together and this book helps you manage the part of you that shows up when you are at your worst.
Brian: I love that description and got to hear you, and Nan teach on it when the cruise was off during the covid year. We were at our land cruise. I know our cruise director hated calling it that, but it basically was a bunch of us—
Ron: That’s what it was.
Brian: —getting together at a resort and got to hear you and Nan teach it. And it was really life-changing for Jen and I. It just allows us to realize the importance, especially of where pride in humility show up. And for us, that was super impactful. So I’m glad that it’s finally in a book and it’s going to be accessible for so many people.
Ron: It’s been a five-year journey in the making, and I tell our listeners all the time, our viewers, this is the stuff that’s had the biggest impact on my life, my walk with the Lord, my ability to husband well with my wife. And so now we just get to share all of this great stuff with everybody else. So The Mindful Marriage is out, available wherever books are sold. It’s a new year, folks, so get a new self and renew your usness. And if you don’t know what I’m talking about, you’ll have to read the book.
Speaking of writing books, you guys are writing a book together. Nan and I just worked on this book together. It’s not easy writing a book with your spouse. Has your experience been good or what?
Brian: Well, if it is anything like when we speak together, it’s not going to be fun.
Ron: It’s not easy.
Brian: It’s not easy.
Ron: People look at us from the outside and they go, “Wow, they got it all together,” but we spent hours trying to figure this stuff out.
Brian: Well, it’s amazing how many fights you end up having as marriage communicators before you speak about marriage. It brings it out. I don’t know what it is, but it’s like she just will make statements and I’m going, “No, this is really good. I’ve said this before, and it works with people.” If Jen were here, she would say, “Yeah, but I don’t want to have to be the one giving that illustration.” “No, if you say it like this,” and she gets a little irritated, fairly so and so, yeah—
Ron: It is challenging.
Brian: —we’re working on this. And what’s neat is even though it’s mainly written for guys, I’ve had a lot of women read the book and I think, what would Jen’s perspective be on this?
Ron: Yeah, yeah, that’s good.
Brian: And so to get her perspective on how this principle or how this idea affects her in the marriage and what’s good about it, what’s been hard about it, and just be vulnerable. And so that’s what we’re working on. And so I don’t know when it’s going to come out. We’ve got a lot of work to do before it comes out, but it’s going to be a revised, updated edition with her thoughts in it.
Ron: Did you get to pick the title?
Brian: Yeah, I did get to pick the title.
Ron: Why the title?
Brian: Yeah. So did you, growing up, you love sports?
Ron: I did.
Brian: And you’re a basketball guy?
Ron: I was.
Brian: Okay.
Ron: I was three sports. I was track and field, basketball, and baseball.
Brian: Oh, well then—
Ron: I went to college on a baseball scholarship.
Brian: Did you really?
Ron: I did. I had a busted knee, and I couldn’t play, and I ended up having to give it all up.
Brian: Well then, you’ll relate to this. I mean, do you remember any athlete that you loved that played through pain during a game?
Ron: Oh yeah.
Brian: Give me an example.
Ron: I’m terrible with names, but the guy that played for the Red Sox and hit the homerun when he had been hurt for all and hit the walk off home run as a dh.
Brian: Well, if you’re thinking about the one I’m thinking about it, it was Kirk Gibson.
Ron: Kirk Gibson, that’s it.
Brian: It was the Dodgers—
Ron: It was against the Red Sox.
Brian: No.
Ron: Am I still crucifying this thing?
Brian: Let me start with a story. What happened, Ron, was there—
Ron: Kirk Gibson. That’s how I got—
Brian: —was Kirk Gibson and it was the Dodgers, and it was against the Oakland Athletics, and it was against, and this goes way back—
Ron: I really killed that.
Brian: Well, it goes way back to the eighties. I’m not a huge baseball guy, but my dad was, and I wasn’t even really a Dodgers fan, but we were watching. It was game one, I think of the World Series that year and he was going, and Dennis Eckersley was the closer and no one was able to shut him down. He was rock solid. Kirk Gibson had the stomach flu, and he got hurt in the previous game. And so his legs were really messed up. He had really messed up one of his legs. And so in batting practice he could barely stand.
So he hadn’t played the whole game. And it was coming down to the bottom of the ninth, two outs. The tying run was on base, but the pitcher was about to come out. And so Lasorda, remember Tommy Lasorda?
Ron: Yes.
Brian: He looked down and is like, the pitcher can’t hit. It’s done. We’re done. And so Gibson goes, “Put me in coach. I’ll play.”
Ron: I did not know he volunteered.
Brian: He could barely stand. And so they were like, “You’re not going to,” and he’s like, “I’ll get a hit.” And so he goes out there, goes down immediately 0-2, somehow struggles back to get the kid to a full count of 3-2, and then somehow all upper body strength cranks back after. Actually, he throws that slider, and he sends it to the cheap seats. My dad is crying, and I don’t even like baseball, but I’m cheering. And he runs around the bases, remember this? And he’s pumping,
Ron: Pumping his arm.
Brian: Now every guy that gets a double in softball does this. It’s like, seriously, guys?
Ron: Every church league guy.
Brian: Yeah, you need to stop. You don’t own that. Well, I think even as I think I was eight, maybe eight years old at the time, and I think even at that young of age, I started admiring men that were willing to play through pain when the game was on the line.
I’m a big basketball guy, so Jordan was my favorite player. So I watched the Bulls game five against the Jazz. He had some, athletes and stomach flu. He got the stomach flu. If the Jazz had won that game, many people said they probably would’ve won the whole series.
Now, I don’t know that you could prove that with Jordan, but the momentum was going in their favor. They thought with Jordan being sick, this is the time to pounce. They did everything they could. They still could not stop him, 38 points, played through it all, collapsed in Scotty Pippin’s arms at the end of the game. And they won, and they ended up winning in six. I just was like, man. And I love stories of military history where men have been shot, and they carry the guy back to the line in the trenches.
Ron: And isn’t that every action movie that’s ever been—
Brian: Every action movie that’s been done.
Ron: It keeps going.
Brian: And as guys, for me, whether it’s the boardroom, the battlefield, or the basketball court, I’m willing to play through a little bit of pain if it means the game is on the line. But what I found in marriage soon after I got married is I get a little bruised ego, I get a little starved libido, and I want to find the bench. I can sulk with the best of them. I can pout. I can get angry. But that’s the moment where when you look at Ephesians 5 and Paul says, husband’s you’re to love your wives, like Christ loves the church.
And then what’s the example that he gives? The example that he’s gives is Christ dying on the cross for the church. And so you sit there and go, that’s actually when I need to be in the game is when I’m most feeling pain from my spouse. That’s where it came from. Playing hurt is like, am I willing to play through pain because that’s the ultimate test of love?
Ron: There’s a lot of people listening right now going, “Yeah, I know my hurt.” We’re all very intimately connected to our pain and our hurt, and we know what it does to us and how it shuts us down. Stepparents listening right now and they’re going, “Yeah, I don’t know why I’m trying anymore. It just feels like everything I do gets pushed down.”
Brian: Especially I would imagine with kids, like your stepkids when it’s like you keep trying to love and they shove you off, they stiff arm you, they’re snide, they’re critical, they’re sarcastic.
Ron: Every parent, I think, biological parent has a season with at least one child, if not more.
Brian: We’ve had ours.
Ron: Yes, we’ve had ours too. And we’ve talked about yours and ours.
Brian: They were both working their stupid out in college.
Ron: That’s right. That’s right. I’m so thankful that stupid came to an end.
Brian: Yes, exactly.
Ron: But it happens, and you just feel like I have no voice at this moment in time that you feel so helpless and powerless. And those are moments where you just want to throw up your hands and kind of quit. And I kind of think, I don’t know if this is true or not, I don’t want to do generalities too much, but I do think for men we’re tempted to quit more so than women are.
Brian: Yeah. Obviously, I haven’t run the stats on it. I can say what’s true for me is that in my marriage, I will pout, and sulk far more than Jen will.
And I know Shaunti Feldhahn did some research on the fantastic five; five things that a husband could do for a wife that have been proven by science. And one of the top five things for a husband that the little things that he can do to show love for his wife is that when he gets into a bad funk or a mood, he pops out on his own. He comes out of it on his own. It’s not the same thing for a wife.
And so it just makes me think there’s something about us as men when our pride gets wounded or when we get hurt, and maybe it even is something neurological like we can’t process that pain as well as women can. And again, you’ve actually been trained in this field, so you know more than I do, but I think that’s probably true is that for most guys, there’s something about relational woundedness that’s different than if I’ve been hurt physically.
Ron: Yeah. Well, one of the things we do in this book The Mindful Marriage is outline how we typically respond to pain. And I don’t want to get into that too much now, but one of the things that we do is retreat. Sometimes we retreat to hurt the other person. Sometimes we retreat just to a place where we feel emotionally safe. Sometimes it’s an escape to something but that is also about avoiding the difficulty, the pain, and just sort of moving away from it, all of which doesn’t really help. But let’s come back to this idea—I really like it—of how do I find the, what is it, gumption, the trust, the resolve to stay in the game?
Brian: Yeah. Well, I think the thing for me, when I was looking at Ephesians 5, this really is just my book more than anything is just walking through Ephesians 5. Mainly to all the pastors, that we’re the husband. So I’m not dealing with verse 22 where it’s talking about the wife submitting to the husband as to the Lord because that’s to the wife. That’s not to me.
I’m looking at what the husband has to deal with. And I think if I were to ask most husbands, “Do you love your wife?” They’d be like, “Well, yeah.” And then I would say, “Well, why?” And then I think they, they’ll almost be just like that doggy head tilt. “Why are you asking me that question?”
I think early on in my marriage, if you were to ask me, why did I love Jen? Well, it’s because, and especially on my wedding day, it’s because she laughed at my jokes. I loved her sense of adventure. She wanted to go on adventures with me, and I really wanted to get her out of that dress. That was my honest reasons. That’s all about her performance towards me. If you think about that why.
Ron: What she does for me.
Brian: How does she make me feel? I love being around her. And that was all true. That’s all good. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But you and I both know, after a few years of marriage, they stop laughing at your jokes all the time.
Ron: That’s right; that’s right.
Brian: They don’t always want to go on the same adventures you want to do. And they definitely don’t always want to get out of the dress when you want them to get out. At least that was our experience. And so then you get forced with, well, now what’s your why?
Well, because that’s what I’m supposed to do as a good Christian husband. And I think that’s where most men end up spending the rest of their married life. Is it a sense of obligation? And I’ve found that obligation without a real clear why or without a real good purpose, it always leads to drudgery. And drudgery leads to death like a slow death.
Ron: Absolutely.
Brian: It leaks out over time.
Ron: Resentment, bitterness.
Brian: Bitterness. I don’t really know how to deal with this, but I know that as a Christian, I’m forced like, well, let’s just stick it out.
Ron: It sounds like I’m trapped.
Brian: It does, and it feels that way.
Ron: Yeah.
Brian: And so what I love about what Paul says, because Paul does say “Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.” And then he goes on and says “to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. In this same way, husbands ought to love their own wives.” Now we all know that love, but what we miss in all of that is he’s kind of presenting this image of a wedding and where he, the Christ is washing the bride, getting ready to present her to himself. And as I got into research about that, what I’m realizing is that what Paul’s doing is he’s giving the why.
I heard Tim Keller talk about this this morning on a podcast where he talked about the whole purpose of marriage is actually to paint a vision, a future glory for your spouse; that the reason why you’re to get married and the reason why we stay married and love each other is because there’s a future you that I get to help bring before God.
Ron: Wow.
Brian: And so then you step back, and you go, so my, why isn’t about obligation. It’s not about her performance.
Ron: It’s certainly not about me.
Brian: It’s not about me. It’s about that we each get to serve each other in such a way that we present each other more holy and blameless to God. This really didn’t stick with me until I had a daughter.
So you’ve had three sons. That’s right. I have a daughter and then two sons. And there’s something about a daughter being born that’s different than a son. I’ll just tell you, just trust me. Like with my son when he was born, I started throwing him up into the air. The umbilical cord was still attached. It was like a bungee cord, and I cut it with a machete, held him up. This is my son. This is Palmer. There was Lion King moment.
When Brantley was born, it’s like I’m holding her. I’m treasuring her. And that never stopped.
Ron: You put on the gentle hands and the arms.
Brian: Yeah. She’s 24 years old. That still has not stopped. My feeling towards her is it’s not that I don’t feel protective towards my boys, but almost there’s a sense of, we want to prepare you. And I want to prepare Brantley too, but for me, when those hormonally charged punks started knocking on our door to take her out, there was a little bit of a different weight that I felt; a responsibility because you don’t bring my daughter back to me and she’s been taken advantage of; she’s been slighted in any way; she’s been treated poorly. Marriage is one long date, and I am married to the daughter of a king.
Ron: When I reflect on what you’re saying, I’ve long thought that what Paul outlines there, that Jesus does for us. He makes us holy, blameless, without stain or wrinkle, nurtures, you know all those words. I dumb it down for me, and it comes down to this, because of how Christ loves me, I’m more than I could ever be by myself. I’m all the things I could never obtain by myself, forgiven, child of the king, all those things. I’m more.
Brian: Right.
Ron: I couldn’t be blameless on my own right, but He makes me blameless. My job is to make Nan more.
Brian: Yes.
Ron: And when I’m in this mode of, well, you got to do for me, well now I’m diminishing something about her because of my need. That can’t be about, what’s that future glory thing you were talking about; that this makes her shine. I learned recently, another word for glory biblically is fame. Make her famous in God’s eyes; that’s my job. That’s a totally different spin on why I’m married to her.
Brian: Right. And it should change. I even think about this passage, regardless of what you think about submission and all these kinds of things, whether you lean more towards the husband is the head or the woman is a helper, those terms that are all used there, regardless of all of that, you see this purpose statement of Paul.
It’s like I should be focused on whatever I’m doing should be to serve and love my wife in such a way that she is made more presentable to God when she gets back into heaven. And all God’s going to—I mean, when I get to heaven, God’s going to ask me this question, what did you do with my daughter? And did I take advantage of her? Did I use my authority to demean her and to make her feel like a lesser than person, that she was always there to meet my needs? Or is it something like, no, how am I helping uncover the glory of God in her? And that sounds real ethereal until you start, for me, until I started looking at my own daughter and going, what do I want a son-in-law, future son-in-law to treat my daughter like? I need to be thinking the same way with Jen.
Ron: The same thing would apply to a father for his daughter, a stepfather for his stepdaughter.
Brian: Exactly.
Ron: Just that overall heart and attitude of how we’re elevating the other in terms of their—and I want to come back to this added layer of, but I’m hurt. Last thing I want to do is help you shine.
Brian: Exactly. Exactly. And so when you start going, the team has got to be more important than my pain. Whenever you look at any of those guys, or even you think about Kerri Strug in the 1996 Olympics.
Ron: There you go. That’s playing hurt.
Brian: Yeah, that’s playing hurt. I remember watching that. Our US women team had never won Team Gold. It was always the Russians or the East Germans or whoever.
Ron: Romania.
Brian: Romania. It was never the US. And it came down to one vault and she had to get a 9.6 in order for us to win the gold. And she comes down on her first run, hits that deal, does her triple salchow—I don’t know what it was. Whatever she did—I think that was ice skating. But she does her triple jump comes down, lands on her foot, falls; found out later she had broken her foot, and Bela Karolyi had carted her off and said, “You’re done.” And she’s like, “No.”
Ron: Got to do it.
Brian: “I got to do it.” And she lands on one foot. I’m crying.
Ron: Yes, I remember that.
Brian: And I just think that’s really the picture of marriage is that one of you lands on a foot and yes, you’ve been hurt. Now again, there’s a difference and we need to come back to this. What’s the difference between, because I’d love to know your opinion when I’m playing hurt in marriage and when I’m playing injured. There’s an injury in marriage where it’s like, that’s not what God’s asking you to endure here, but let’s come back to that.
Ron: We’ll come back to that.
Brian: So for me, when I get hurt, I’m either going to spend all my time nursing my hurt, or I’m going to step back and go, “Wait, no, the team is more important than my pain right now, so I need to move towards Jen rather than move away from her.”
Ron: Yeah. This is so good Brian. And I just, I’m sorry, but I can’t help. One of the things we talk about in The Mindful Marriage is this is one of the biggest realizations to me about myself in my marriage and who I am just as a person and how I carry myself, is that I think most of us spend our entire married lives trying to get our spouse to do or be something to help my pain go away.
Brian: That’s so good. I mean, it’s so bad.
Ron: Yes.
Brian: But that is what we do.
Ron: It is. It is the reason I get critical of my wife. It’s the reason I get controlling of her behavior, her thoughts, her ideas. It’s the reason I get defensive if she’s finds something in me that’s unbecoming. And the reason I want to defend myself is because I’m not feeling very adequate right now. And so if I get you to change your mind by, I don’t know, turning around and making this about you or find some fault in you, and somehow even the playing field or whatever that little strategy is.
Brian: That never works by the way.
Ron: It’s ludicrous to think that it’s going to be helpful, but we do it.
Brian: We do it.
Ron: And I think if I get you to be different, then my pain goes away. So think about how much time we spend trying to change the other person, so you feel better. How much better would it be if we were able to manage our own hurt, our own pain in and see what you’re talking about? It’s my job to manage this pain and still serve in a way and love in a way that helps the other person shine.
Brian: And it doesn’t deny the pain. Let’s be clear. We’re not talking about denial. We’re not talking about, “Oh, I’m just going to brush that off, that Jen’s comment hurt me, so I’m going to deny that.” No, it’s recognizing that was hurtful. But my approach to her, my tone to her—
Ron: I do think what happens though, part of what we have to do is call it thick skin. So you hear that negative criticism from Jen, and you park it right beside you. You just don’t let it penetrate to your heart.
Brian: That’s good.
Ron: And so the hurt is still here, still something to be dealt with. But the issue now is, can I maintain my sense of self enough, separate and apart from her comment, separate and apart from that, so I maintain who I am and still respond with integrity and character and gentleness? And that’s the discipline that Christ showed over and over and over and ultimately on the cross.
Brian: And that’s when you get into the next part of the verse in Ephesians where you’re talking about what does it look like to actually love, which is nourish and cherish. So I’m going to cherish you even though you’re a sinner, even though you’re selfish, because that’s exactly what God does to us, is that we hurt him all the time with my thoughts, with my negligence, with all the things that I do in a day. And God’s going, that pain is over here on the cross, like you just said. I park that pain over here and I’m going to approach you and I’m going to help you actually become a better version of yourself than you could have done on your own.
And I think for me and Jen, I think I realized how infantile my love has been and how infantile my view of love was when I got married; that it really was about me, and it really was about how her role was to help me feel better. And I think that’s how most of us come in, that we don’t have that bigger vision of glory.
Ron: I will say I think about the stepcouples that we work with. Well, I got married at 19, was my love immature. Oh my gosh, I look back now, I was an idiot. I had no idea what it looked like to love well, right; immature out the wazoo. You learn a few things over time. One of the things that I think that also happens is for people who have been through a divorce or being widowed; you learn some hard lessons, life grows you up in some ways, and then you move into another relationship and guess what? There’re still some things that that relationship requires of you that you didn’t.
So there’s always some immaturity in us this side of Heaven that Jesus is going to try to shave off if we’ll let Him; constantly looking to that example of who He was and how He loves us. I love how you painted that.
I know one of the other cortexes in this book playing hurt is Philippians 2. What is it in there that helps us to play hurt and love well?
Brian: Yeah. Well, think about the reason why we love those stories about people that have played through pain; the athletes, the people on the battlefield, the men and women that have fought for our country’s sacrifice. For them that in the moment where they should be going, “I’m hurt here,” “I’m shot,” “I’m wounded,” whatever it might be, they don’t look out for their own interests, but they look out for the interests of other, which is Philippians 2. It is all about having the mind of Christ, and I just don’t think we bring that mind. I am more mindful of my pain than I’m mindful of what Christ would do in this moment.
When I start reading those two passages. Ephesians 5, Philippians 2, you go, “Yeah, my mind does need to be transformed” is what Paul says in Romans 12. It can’t just be conformed into this idea of I’m going to think about my pain so much and hold onto it so much until you come around to my way of thinking. At some point in time, I’ve got to let go of that, release that. Again, not ignore it, but move towards my wife rather than move away from her.
Ron: Looking out for the interests of others. Couple things about that, Paul, number one says, look, not only to your own interest. He doesn’t say—
Brian: —ignore them, right?
Ron: —ignore yourself. What do you think? Do you think self-care is an important element to being a good partner?
Brian: Yeah.
Ron: Yeah. Yeah.
Brian: Jesus modeled that. He’s stealing away—
Ron: Absolutely.
Brian: —having time to himself, looking at how he makes sure he’s fed, how he’s, makes sure he’s rested, all those kinds of things. Absolutely. Yeah.
Ron: So that is a part of being a good husband, wife, parent, stepparent is recognizing when you have a particular need and then taking steps to meet that need. Again, not necessarily requiring other people to meet your need. That’s where we kind of get stuck, I think, is expecting too much from others as if they can fulfill that for us. But sometimes we got to take steps to look after ourselves, whether that’s taking a break or finding somebody to talk to that’s safe or whatever that might be, refueling with a weekend away as a couple, whatever. I mean all of those go into self-care.
Brian: I wish I had done more of this when Jen and I were in moments of just disagreement. What my MO is, I do, I retreat. Some guys, they fight, they come out and they still flee by getting angry and voicing it and then just running out of the room or whatever.
Ron: Right; right.
Brian: For me, I sulk, I pout, and Jen just kind of lets me do that and we go to bed mad. I wish that I had the courage to have said more times, “I know I’m angry at you right now. I know we’re angry at each other. Let’s get some rest and let’s talk about it in the morning.” Just to acknowledge I’m still in this. I’m still for you. I’m still going to pursue you. I’m still mad, but I’m going to move towards reconciliation.
Ron: I don’t know about you, but if I say something like that, out loud to my wife, it holds me accountable to it.
Brian: It does.
Ron: It’s sort of like “Now I got to live up to that. Doggone it. Why did I put myself in that? Now I got to live up to that.” But that is an important thing to do. Otherwise I might not live up to that. I may back away from it.
Okay. Can I tell you something really awesome that I discovered, just sort of happened upon not too long ago that relates to this Philippians 2?
Brian: Yeah.
Ron: Look, not only to your own interest, but to the interests of others. Back in the late eighties, a guy named John Gottman. Now I know you know who that is and if our viewers and listeners don’t know who that is, he is one of the, considered one of the premier marital researchers in America as published widely, the Gottman Institute, on and on it goes, there’s a whole strain of ways of thinking about how to work with couples, improve marriages based on his research. He was the guy who in the late eighties published a book that said, we’ve discovered what predicts divorce.
Brian: Yes.
Ron: And we can predict it with 93 percent accuracy in the next 5 years, couples that will get divorced based on whether they do 4 things. So whether there’s a lot of contempt and criticism in their relationship, if there’s withdrawal by one or more of the partners and how often that happens. And then stonewalling is where you just sort of turn your back and say I don’t even want to engage you emotionally.
Brian: The four horsemen of the—
Ron: Four horsemen of the apocalypse, they call them because when you see these things in mass, the end is near. That’s where that reference came from.
Ron: Well, by the way, all couples do all four. It’s just how often and how much you do them. That was his book, seminal work. Everybody was like gangbusters over this. So much has been done since that first book came out. Did you know that 15 years after he published that book, he wrote another book in which he started the book by saying, “We missed something.”
Brian: No, I did not.
Ron: We missed another factor that leads couples to do the four horsemen. It precedes them, it predicts them. And if you don’t get this right, then the four horsemen show up. What’s that factor? Trust. Without trust in a relationship, you cannot, what you begin to do is withdraw because you don’t feel safe, emotionally connected. So you withdraw, or you get critical because you’re trying to get your partner to come closer so you can trust them more. Trust. So he writes this book that’s 500 pages long called The Science of Trust.
Brian: And no one read it.
Ron: And no one read it because it was so deep and thick and all kinds of academic stuff in there. And you had to be a researcher to really even understand half of it. But I plowed my way through, and not too long ago I picked that book up again and started plowing through because I was looking for stuff related to our book, The Mindful Marriage by the way. And in the middle of that book, I had forgotten that he has this whole chapter on, well, we decided to study trust, but we had to come up with a definition of what trust is in order to be able to quantify it in our research. And he goes on about all of these little discussions that he had with researchers, and they tested this, and they tested that idea, and they did this preliminary thing. And at the end of it he said, we decided that the way you could measure trust is if I come to believe that my spouse is looking out for my interests.
Brian: And he uses that word.
Ron: He used those exact phrase that Paul uses in Philippians 2.
Brian: Gosh, it’s amazing how science catches up with truth, with God’s truth and Scripture.
Ron: He then goes on and basically says, when I know you have my best interest at heart, even though you’re looking out for yourself, but I can trust you to look after me, that’s what trust is. Philippians 2 and Ephesians 5, God said it a long time ago.
Brian: He really did. And that’s why in Ephesians 4, and you just think about it, the whole book of Ephesians, it was written to two groups of people in a church that couldn’t get along. And so it has great application for marriage or family, but it’s like the first three chapters are all about you’re standing in Christ and the fact that you’ve been, and then chapter four, it switches in, we are baptized in one spirit, so we can’t do this without the spirit of God.
Ron: That’s right.
Brian: We don’t try this at home is what I heard Tim Keller say. It’s like this whole thing about how you even work marriage as husband and wife. You need the Spirit of God and the fruit of the Spirit in your life to make this work. Ephesians 4 is all about putting off the old man and you put off anger and contempt and malice, which is a conscious thing. And the image he has is taking off clothes, like taking off garments. And so it’s like I have a choice in the moment of pain to put on malice, to put on contempt, to put on defensiveness, to put, I’m choosing to put that on because it feels comfortable. It feels natural. It feels like an old—
Ron: No, it does not. No, it does not.
Brian: But then when I stay there, I’m not going to move towards my spouse. And that’s why Paul says, take it off, take that off and put on whatever is good for the building up of each other. And so I don’t know, man, it’s not something I ever do naturally to play hurt. It’s not something that I want to do. But it’s just like anything else in life, the more that you practice it and trust that process, you realize it works a lot better than holding a grudge.
It works a lot better than silent treatment. None of that has ever drawn Jen back. It’s not like after I ignored Jen for 24 hours or 40 hours, she comes back and goes, “You know what, Brian? I love you a lot more. I’m really sorry.”
Ron: It didn’t work.
Brian: It doesn’t work. But I do want to ask you this because you’re the perfect guy to ask this. How do I know when I’m playing hurt or when I’m playing injured? Because that actually is a chapter that wasn’t in this book that after I’ve taught this a couple times, I think the thing that I’ve had people come up to me and just say, “But I’m getting abused in marriage. Is that playing hurt? Do I need to stay in that marriage?” And so I started realizing there’s a difference between playing hurt and playing injured.
Ron: Yes. First of all, let me just say, I think every one of us plays life injured. There was something out of our childhood, our young adulthood, our first marriage, our second marriage, something that injured us, that taught us a hard lesson, that put a wound on our heart that has forever changed how we think about ourselves and how we think about relationships. So we’re all carrying a little residue of injury somewhere in our life.
And so far, what we’ve talked about is the challenge of putting on the personal discipline, self-control, to say, “I’m not going to let that dictate how I respond.” The taking off you were just talking about; taking off malice, taking off criticism, whatever those things are, and that flows out of my pain, my injury. This is The Mindful Marriage book by the way. Sorry, I have to say—
Brian: I’m glad I could come on to help you unpack what this book is about.
Ron: I love it when great minds get together.
Brian: Right.
Ron: Think alike. But the putting on is the self-discipline part where I have to be different than my pain wants me to be. Okay, that’s just hard. It’s even neurological. All of those things are working against us, so we need, as you said, the Spirit of God in order to grow past our pain.
But, having said that, let’s talk about when it’s this person you’re trying to love, or for somebody who’s watching or listening, it is ex-spouse, a former spouse who was very, very injurious towards you and caused you deep, deep pain. And they probably would be again, if you’ll allow them to–emotionally, perhaps even physically, violence—that sort of injury trumps the ability for anybody to find emotional safety.
If I’m putting on self-control about who I am, but I’m married to somebody who is threatening me physically or emotionally or sexually or spiritually with control, for example, and it is an oppressive, not one time thing, two times thing, but a repetitive pattern, then I may be in control of myself, but that doesn’t mean I am able to find a safe environment to be able to respond to you in a decent manner and love you back. Everything gets ruined at that point. And so something has to change.
So there is no wisdom in remaining in that circumstance and allowing yourself to continue to get beat down. You’ve got to find a way to intervene in that; a third party, a counselor, a pastor, a good friend, somebody. And if that doesn’t work, then the hard decision for some people is then, I’m going to step away and give you the wake-up call of no, this is really serious and this is on you to face with me. And then we can maybe make some progress. But until you’re willing to face yourself, then we’re not going to make progress. And in extreme situations, I think some people even have to, even divorce is the most redemptive thing you can do in order to try to bring that person to the end of themselves.
Brian: So it might be fair to say, if you’re always the only person in the marriage—
Ron: There you go.
Brian: —that’s playing hurt, then chances are you’re continuing to be in a place where you’re going to be constantly injured. And that’s not what we’re talking about.
Ron: No, that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re not telling anybody to stay and get physically hurt or beat or manipulated or controlled. That’s not what we’re saying.
We’re not also saying, so you can flippantly leave at the drop of a hat.
Brian: Exactly.
Ron: But no, this is significant intensity of pain slash repetitive over time, those types of things that we’re talking about. And it’s important that we say that because I know people listening right now are going, “Yeah, well you don’t know my ex and the reason I left was because…” Well, I get it. No, I do get it. And I also understand you’ve got to find a way through co-parenting at this point with that same person because you have children together. And that too is incredibly difficult even though you’re not married to them.
Brian: And one of the best things you could teach those kids that are being co-parented in that situation is that difference between making sure they learn how to set those same boundaries to where they’re not constantly being injured.
Ron: Well, I love the Philippians 2 language. I think it has an application to what we’re talking about. So consider not only your own interests but the interests of others. Now, Paul’s not talking just about marriage in that facet. He’s talking about all relationships and every connection that we have with anybody, but specifically to a situation where it’s with somebody that can’t be trusted. They don’t have your best interests at heart. You can look out for your wellbeing. There’s nothing ungodly about that. “Love your neighbor,” What’s those last two words? As yourself has legitimacy.
I actually think when I am putting on self-control, when I’m taking off my old self, I’m learning how to not react out of pain, but respond out of love and concern. I recognize my worth and value in God’s eyes and in that truth, I can say, “No, you’re not going to treat me that way anymore. We’re going to do it this way, not that way. I’m going to meet you in the middle, but I won’t go the extra mile because you have proven that you cannot be trusted.” So there’s actually an esteem that comes to the individual who finally gets, you’re a person of worth and value and it’s okay for you to insist that the other person recognize that.
Brian: Yeah, that’s good.
Ron: You’re not diminished in that space. You’re actually elevated in that space when we get this right.
Brian: And it’s the best thing you can do for that person because they need to be confronted with their sin.
Ron: Right. It’s a loving thing.
Brian: It is. It’s speaking the truth in love. And sometimes love has to have those boundaries for that safety. Because then the relationship can flourish. But without that safety and trust, it’s not going to flourish.
Ron: Man, this has been such a good conversation. While you’re here, can I pick your brain on a couple other things?
Brian: Sure.
Ron: The overall state of marriage and family in the world today. We’re talking to parents who are raising kids who are trying to teach them good principles and help them have strong relationships, and they’re wrestling with what they’re seeing in the world. Just what thoughts come to your mind there about even what you and Jen are trying to do for your kids.
Brian: I know we got—two of our kids got engaged within 24 hours, so that created a whole different level of anxiety that we have for this next year. So pray for the Goins family that we can get through this year. And we have one that has a date, one that doesn’t have a date yet. And so hopefully by the time this podcast is airing, we know those dates and we’ve got them down. But we’re excited, we’re looking forward. We love who their choice is and who they’re marrying. I think the thing that I’m finding is that I think because of all the no fault divorce that we’ve had for the last how many decades? Been since the sixties.
Ron: Yeah, long time.
Brian: Long time that I don’t know that there’s ever been a time in my life where I’ve seen so much hunger for to know how relationships will work. Since they’ve seen the fallout of divorce and easy, I would say easy divorce, that they’re cautious about getting married, but they’re also ravenous for relationships that last. And I think we’ve never been FamilyLife, FamilyLife Blended has never been in a better position to be able to not tell but show great models of what actually great relationships can look like.
What does it look like to pursue the relationships that matter most? And to be able to pass that down. And so when I think about the state of the family, I know that some people aren’t getting married as they’re getting married later and they’re waiting for that and they’re skeptical, but I also think they really are going, but I want to buy in. I want to buy into something that is going to last. I don’t want it to be about me. And when marriage is just about me.
It seems like you got two extremes. People are saying we don’t need marriage. And then we got people that are just going, well, I’ll get married as long as you kind of come onto my agenda. And neither one of those really work.
And we have all kinds of stats. I mean, Brad Wilcox just came out with a great book. I had him on our podcast not too long ago where he talked about his book title Get Married and how it’s going to save civilization. I was like, that’s some value promise. And he really statistically will show how it’s so much better for society and for you as a person when you get married. And so his advice is, get married, and get married younger. And so I’m going, man, when you see it done right, it’s God’s way of creating an ecosystem for not only for you to grow in a healthy way, to be able to become the person that you couldn’t have become on your own, but also for kids
Ron: At the same time I agree with you. There’s a great hunger out there for instruction guidance. I kind of see the church fading away in terms of offering that guidance.
Brian: I agree with you and that’s why I’m saying FamilyLife, FamilyLife Blended, we’re a nonprofit organization. If we can continue to help come alongside the church, now you continue to do what you’re doing in such a great way. I mean, I really feel like Ron, you offer that hope that the church has really been silent on. You talk about—church might’ve given some marriage advice, but to help blended families. It’s such an essential role and space that God has called you into. And so I feel like we are uniquely positioned. I want to see more marriage ministries doing the same thing. I do agree with you. And why do you say that? Let me ask that first. Why do you feel like the church is growing silent?
Ron: Well, some research has come out over the last few years. We’ve shared a little bit before on this podcast; 85 percent of churches don’t spend a dime on marriage ministry; 85 percent don’t spend a dime. Another stat is, okay, well do they do anything? Do they offer a class? They may not spend any money on that class, but do they offer a class or a workshop or a seminar or something or retreat for couples during the course of the year?
And it’s something like 74 percent of churches will do one or two or three of those a year, but no more than three. So the vast majority do very little to help. So don’t spend any money and also don’t offer many opportunities. That adds up to very little and so much more that the church could be doing, which is one of the things FamilyLife is all about, is equipping the church to do more. We really want them to be kingdom-minded in that sense of, relationships are discipling tools, and so can we take advantage of that?
To that end, one of the things that we do of course is resource churches and leaders. You helped revise our Art of Marriage video curriculum. And came out this last year in 2023, really launched and got out there. For somebody who doesn’t know what that is, tell us about it.
Brian: Yeah. At its core, it’s a six-part video series on marriage. It’s kind of the basic foundational truths about marriage. You can do it in a small group. You can do it as an event at a church. A lot of times people, and we’ve got a lot of couples that will take four or five couples, go out to a cabin for a weekend and watch all six sessions.
Some people use it as a small group; watch a session every week. It’s got a workbook that goes with it. One for him, one for her. And what I’ve loved, and you’re a big part of it, Ron, you did a great job in it. And as one of our key voices, we have a multitude of voices all from kind of different backgrounds and different parts of the country and all that kind of stuff, different, just even different levels of expertise. What I loved about the first Art of Marriage is that it was a multi creative aspect. It wasn’t just one talking head, but you had all these different ways of learning all crammed into about 25 minutes.
So it’s six 25-minute sessions. And what it does is it basically breaks down; each session is a different word that we use of God’s love. And when we actually mimic and model the love of God towards each other, the byproduct ends up being oneness, ends up being togetherness, ends up being usness as you’re using in The Mindful Marriage. So we talk about, there’s three Greek words, three Hebrew words, and we just walk through each one of those. And so you’re going to learn a little Greek, a little Hebrew along the way, and you’re going to learn about—
Ron: And learn how to do it.
Brian: And learn how to do it and learn how to apply How does God show his love towards us? Now, how do I show that love towards my wife, towards my kids? Whether you’re in a blended home or not, it’s a great biblical discipleship of God’s love.
Ron: It really is a great series. You did a marvelous job overseeing and producing. I’ll just tell our audience so many different uses. You mentioned the different formats. Get creative in how you take advantage of this resource and utilize it, even use it, help your kids come to understand something about relationships as they face this big bad world out there that wants to—
Brian: We’ve got animations and dramas. And it’s a unique deal,
Ron: And it’s for all couples, but we have blended family sidebars built into the workbook and the manual with every session. And so there’s something in there.
Brian: And I’ll say this, if you have RightNow Media, you can watch it on, stream it on RightNow Media. But you want to order the workbooks because we really leaned into the whole art idea that if God is the original artist, every artist has an intention for why they create something, right? And so God had a design for marriage. What would that design look like? Why did he do it?
And so I love the workbooks. They’re probably one of my favorite parts. It gives you all the questions, not just for you in a small group, but we also have a section for you on how do I apply this at home? And so we have date night questions that you can say, I don’t have to think about my next date night. We go out, we have a couple of questions that we can talk through that’ll help us go a little bit deeper with each other and draw us closer together.
Ron: Good stuff.
Brian: And I appreciate you. Seriously, some of my favorite wisdom is some of the stuff that you offer. And so there’s a lot on the cutting room floor that we really need to figure out what to do with because it was so good.
Ron: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It was fun to be a part of it. Yay God.
Brian: Yeah.
Ron: Brian, man, thanks for being with me today.
Brian: I look forward to it, man.
Ron: So again, your claim to fame is being on the FamilyLife Blended Podcast two times.
Brian: Two times. Are there any three or four timers yet.
Ron: Yeah. Gayla Grace has been on a whole bunch.
Brian: Oh, that’s true. That’s true.
Ron:Yeah, she’s in a different category.
Brian: Do you get a coat after like five times?
Ron: No, you don’t. Hey, if you want to learn more about Brian and the work that he’s doing or The Art of Marriage, just check the show notes. It’s going to tell you all about it and get you connected.
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