Dating or Engaged – Sean Perron & Spencer

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson – Web Version Transcript

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Dating or Engaged

Guests:Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon

From the series:Relationships Done Right (Day 2 of 3)

Air date:May 29, 2025

Spencer:I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another person counting on me. I remember this one time, I was like, “I’m going to help make the spaghetti.” This is the first three months of marriage, and I’m in there stirring the spaghetti, and I’m thinking, “Look at me. I’m such a great husband.” And then my wife comes in after me and this still happens today. She looked up and there’s spaghetti sauce on the ceiling.

Ann:Noooo!

Spencer:She’s like, “You’re a tall guy, but how did you even do that?”

Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave:And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

We got Spencer Harmon and Sean Perron back in the studio with us. You guys have written this really interesting trilogy, I guess you call it.

Ann:Yeah, yeah.

Dave:You’re like The Lord of the Rings.

Ann:There we go.

Spencer:That’s right. He’s definitely Gandolf.

Sean:Just like Lord of the Rings.

Dave:No. I mean, we talked about it yesterday, Letters to a Romantic, which I love that title. By the way, okay, I got both of you here. Who came up with the title?

Spencer:I think it was you.

Sean:I think it was me also. I’ll take credit for that.

Ann:Look at that, Sean!

Dave: Way to defer!

Ann: Yes!

Dave:So Letters to a Romantic: On Dating, On Engagement, and On Marriage, and we could separate all three. We talked a lot yesterday about dating and today let’s talk about engagement, maybe marriage. We’ll see where it goes. But as you think about dating—we didn’t even bring this up yesterday—what’s the goal? I mean, for a Christian that wants to honor God in dating, is it even biblical? And what’s the goal?

Spencer:Yeah, yeah. We talked about this a little bit yesterday that you got these biblical categories for male female relationships, right? There’s brother-sister. There’s this category called betrothed in the Bible and then there’s marriage. Those are the categories. So in God’s world, according to scripture, which is the real world, you’re in one of those three categories with every man or woman in your life. And so what you got when you’re dating is you’ve got a brother and sister, but we all recognize that we’ve got to figure out, what is this? Should we spend our life with each other? Should we enter into this other category called marriage? So what is dating? People obsess about this in Christian circles like, “Well, we don’t date. We do this or we do that.” Or some people say, “Oh, that’s silly. We date.” Here’s what I would say. Don’t obsess over titles over this. Define this.

The way I define it in our book is “Dating is exploring with purpose whether or not you should get married with somebody.” Here’s what I mean by that. There’s an exploration dynamic in dating, right? You don’t go on your first date with a girl and be like, “Okay, here’s my 15 questions to figure out if you’re going to be my wife.”

Sean:Yeah, please don’t do that.

Spencer:That’s the great way to not get a second date.

Dave:Yeah.

Spencer:But there’s an exploratory element of this. “Hey, we’re getting to know each other. Can we laugh together? What do you believe about life? What are your friends like? We’re just spending time together and having fun together.”

Ann:“Where are you spiritually?”

Spencer:“Where are you at spiritually? I want to know what your walk with the Lord is. Where do you go to church?” All of those things. There’s an exploratory element that requires some freedom, but it’s always governed by purpose. We don’t date just for the thrill of knowing that there’s a pretty person that likes me. That’s selfish, and that’s not loving your neighbor as you love yourself.

There’s a purpose that’s always governing what we’re doing in our exploration, and that purpose is marriage. “Can I marry this person?” And when we think about marriage, we’re thinking about it biblically. “Are you someone who is trusting in Jesus Christ? What role and how much authority does God’s word have in your life? What’s your vision for your life? What do you want to do? Where does the local church play into your life?” All of those things are governing the way that you explore things.

Ann:And some people are listening, like, “I just wanted to have fun. What was all that?”

Spencer:Yes.

Ann:But you’re saying there should be a purpose behind it, because marriage is pretty important.

Spencer:Yes, that’s right, and ultimately, we can’t be selfish. Many of us are so worldly in how we think about dating. We’re like, “The point of dating is for me to have the maximum amount of fun and pleasure as possible.” And it’s like that’s incredibly selfish to say. What if the point of marriage was to love and serve this person, and explore whether or not you could get married for the glory of God?

Sean:Yeah. Whatever you do, whether you eat, drink, or go on a date, or if you eat and drink on a date, do it all to the glory of God.

Dave:Is that true pleasure? Is that your definition?

Sean:It is. Glorify God and enjoy Him forever. So I think when you do that, when you lose yourself and you have pleasures at the right hand of God, Psalm 16 talks about, you’re filled with joy that’s unspeakable and full of glory.

Ann:So when you talk to people that are watching The Bachelor and The Bachelorette and they’re saying, “I want to get married because I just want to be happy.” That’s what a majority of people are saying today. How would you guys respond to that?

Sean:So I think everyone should want to be happy. I think you should seek happiness. The happiest being that exists is God. God is happier than anyone has ever thought about.

“Heaven is a world of joy. Heaven is a world of love,” Jonathan Edwards says, and so we will spend an eternity getting to know this happy God. Because happiness originated with God, it was his idea, then we are happiest when we are loving Him, when we’re enjoying Him, when we’re knowing Him. I would say the person who’s watching The Bachelorette and wants to be really happy, they need to know what true happiness is, and they won’t find that watching The Bachelorette.

Spencer:They’ll find that in the scriptures, in the Bible. So it’s a whole redefinition. It’s a paradigm shift. It’s explosion of your world to understand lasting joy, which is a fruit of the Spirit.

Dave:So one of the things you mentioned—and again, as you talk, I’m thinking, “You did Kiss Dating Goodbye?” Or you didn’t?

Sean:Yes and no.

Dave:I mean you guys sort of grew up—I mean you’re a little young, but that was right as you were probably little boys coming in.

Sean:Oh, no, that was big. It was big.

Dave:So you kissed it goodbye, or you kissed it hello?

Sean:I think it’s a mistake to understand dating as a whole category as sinful, but it all depends on what you do with it. So the purpose of dating is to pursue marriage. So if you’re dating selfishly, if you’re dating aimlessly, then you’re going to wind up in a cul-de-sac of brokenness and pain and heartache that you can’t get out of. But if you use dating to glorify God, I think that’s possible, so that’s why I say yes and no.

So we didn’t jettison the entire concept, but we are seeking to be purposeful and intentional and biblical in how we go about it.

Ann:So you guys, you’ve done this right? As I look at you, I should say you’ve done it biblically.

Spencer:Okay.

Ann:Your dating experience, your wedding experience—

Dave:Engagement.

Ann:So then you get married. You’ve been married a while; you have kids. Is there anything you wish you would’ve known going into these first, even, five to ten years? Like, “Oh, I wish somebody would’ve said this to me.” Because you’re writing about it, so what are those things that people need to know those first few years?

Dave:Write us a letter to a romantic about marriage.

Ann:There you go.

Spencer:So it’s funny. In the marriage book, I wrote the first chapter, and I remember sitting down, being like, “How do we start this thing? How do we—” I wrote this sentence, and that’s the first thing that popped into my mind when you asked this question is that “Marriage is an experiment in exposure.” And let me explain what I mean by that. So I did not understand how much marriage was going to expose me in my heart, right?

Ann:Yes.

Dave:Good and bad.

Spencer:You walk into marriage, and we did premarital counseling, so we know in theory, “Hey, you’re going to go into marriage and listen. You’re going to see your own sin.” But then you get into marriage, and you get this 3-D picture of your sin, and it’s everywhere you look, because you’re living life with another person.

Ann:Oh, that’s good. At least you saw your own sin. I’m like, “Look at his sin!”

Spencer:I think that it is my pride though, that actually motivates that answer, because I think you go into marriage and you’re like, “Well, I think I know the ways that they need to grow. But then you’re like, “Wait a second. I’m the common denominator in all our problems.” And that was a shocker. That was something that I had to really wrestle with.

I’m an internal processor, and so there’s not loud explosions of anger with me. Or all of this stuff happens inside of me, and I’m wrestling with the Lord, of “I am not as far along as I thought I was before we said, ‘I do.’” It was a humbling experience for me and actually motivated a lot of what we wrote.

Ann:Yeah, I bet.

Spencer:To say like, “Okay, okay, we got to do this all over again. We’ve got to figure out how we apply the gospel of Christ to all these different areas, all these different firsts of marriage. How do we apply it here?”

Dave:I mean, was there one that jumps out? Because when I think of me, and this is 42 years ago, I was shocked at how selfish I was, and I was even more shocked at how more selfish she was than I was.

Ann:I was shocked at how selfish you were too.

Dave:But I mean it’s really, I knew I was selfish, like you said, then it was 3-D. Do you have something like that? You’re like, “Wow, I just didn’t realize I was this bad?”

Ann:And mine was pride. I didn’t realize how prideful I was.

Spencer:So I think two things. One, there’s pride and pride in a very particular way.

Dave:No, actually, I’ll put this in real quick. The first time she admitted she was wrong, it was probably six months in. I said, “Wait, wait, wait. Did you just say you’re wrong? I’m writing the date down.” That’s how bad it was. “You have never wanted to admit it.”

Spencer:That’s a great way to break through your—

Sean:Love keeps all records of wrong.

Ann:I love these guys.

Dave:Man, that’s so romantic.

Spencer:So I realized, so pride—this is going to sound really funny, but I did not realize how absent-minded I was until I got married, when there was another person counting on me. I remember this one time, I was like, “I’m going to help make the spaghetti.” This is the first three months of marriage. I’m in there stirring the spaghetti pan and I’m thinking, “Look at me. I’m such a great husband.” And then my wife comes in after me, and this still happens today. She’s looking around, she’s like, “I don’t know how it’s humanly possible for you to make such a mess.” She looked up and there’s spaghetti sauce on the ceiling.

Ann:Noooo!

Spencer:She’s like, “How is there spaghetti—how did you even—you’re a tall guy, but how did you even do that?” She’s very, very gracious with me.

The other thing, I think, was I did not realize that there was a lot of fear of man and people pleasing in my heart, because when you’re a man and you get married, God is calling you to lead, and to be courageous, and to have a vision, and to set direction, and to lead your family according to God’s Word. I realized there’s still just a lot of fear there. There’s a lot of timidity that I had to overcome and say, “Okay, this precious woman that God has given me is counting on me to lead us spiritually.”

And then we had kids right away. We got pregnant three months into marriage. It’s like, “Okay, now there’s these sweet little people that are looking to me for leadership too, and I need to lead this family spiritually.” And there was fear that I had to overcome and grow in courage in the Lord in doing that.

Dave:Yes, that’s real. Hey Sean, share your sins with us.

Sean:I was only thinking of Spencer’s sins when I was sitting here.

Dave:There’s one right there.

Sean:There we go. I don’t know what you’re talking about. No, I talked about this briefly in one of the letters. I realized that I was on a different time schedule than Jenny, and by even me saying that, that’s part of my sin. I realized that my time, the way it needed to work was the correct way, and the way that she wanted it to work was not aligned with mine.

So that’s a small thing, but it’s the small things that add up. And if you don’t keep short accounts with one another, if you’re not continually seeking to confess, “Oh, I blew it just then. I was trying to rush you out the door. I was delaying, dragging my feet, because I didn’t think we needed to be there on time.” If I don’t confess that right away and say, “Would you please forgive me? That was arrogant.” You know what? I shouldn’t have said that. That was sinful. I was harsh. I was rough. I wasn’t gentle.”

When you keep short accounts, it serves your whole family. It serves the Lord; it serves the church. It serves the people you’re around because people know, “Oh, they’re not harboring bitterness. They’re not keeping wrongs. They’re real. They’re trying to confess their sin. They’re trying to repent.” And that’s what the Lord wants and is to honor Him. So the small things do add up.

I thought of one in engagement, though. This is a bit of a curve ball, so I wish someone had told me. So you asked, “What do you wish you knew in advance?” I did not anticipate the onslaught of bad advice I would receive. I was struck over and over again with people’s opinions. There are so many opinions. Everyone has an opinion about everything, which is why we wrote a book.

Spencer:We have opinions, too.

Sean:But I had people come up and they’d be like, “Oh, you know what? You guys seem happy now but just wait until the day after you’re married.”

Spencer:So true.

Sean:And I’m like, “Well, what happens the day after you get married?” And then I’d be like, “Well, that was really weird, Jenny. These people, they must, something bad must happen the second day.”

And then I had people say, “Oh, you know what? You’re going to do great the first six months of marriage, just wait until year one. In year one, that’s when all of the hordes of Satan come and visit your home.” And I’m like, “What is wrong with everyone? Everyone’s doom and gloom, prophesying the world’s going to end at some determinative point in the relationship in marriage.”

And I was like, “Do you know what? I need to figure this out. I need to figure out is that true? Is that what they’re saying? Is there really something that happens at year five, or something that happens at year whatever that makes this really bad?” And the answer is no. The answer is we’re sinners, and this can happen at any time, but praise God for the gospel who allows us to, has mercy and grace to fill us up so that we can change. We don’t have to be stuck in our sinful preferences or sinful idiosyncrasies. We can really grow and change over time.

Ann:That’s good.

Dave:Yeah, I was thinking, I had no idea—and I didn’t really deal with it for more than five years—how harsh my words were. And she told me, but I didn’t believe it. I didn’t see it, and it’s a long story. I had a videotape catch me on tape, and I saw it for the first time, but a few years ago, maybe you know the name John Gottman. Do you know that name?

Sean:Yes.

Spencer:Yes.

Dave:A Jewish man, who’s a writer and a study of marriage relationships, especially conflict, he put a name on that that I had never heard before. And he says the worst thing that can happen in a marriage is contempt. And he says, he calls it the “Four Horsemen.” And one of them is criticism; we criticize our spouse. But he says contempt is when you criticize your spouse with a sense of arrogance, “I’m better than you. Why are you such a—?”

That’s what I had. I had contempt, and she saw it and would point it out. I couldn’t see it. I was shocked when I saw it. It was ugly and it was hurtful. If I wouldn’t have had a wife to be able to sharpen me and speak truth in love, and she did—sometimes not in love, but she spoke truth. Many times with grace and love; but if I wouldn’t have seen that, I don’t think we’re sitting here today.

Sean:Yeah.

Dave:And that’s one of the beauties of marriage too, because it’s like God gives you a partner who is going to help you sharpen to become like Christ, which is our ultimate goal. And that’s the beauty of marriage, but it’s also the agony because it’s hard, isn’t it?

Sean:“The wounds of a friend are better than the kisses of an enemy.” And you want your wife to be kissing you all the time, but also your wife needs to be able to point out your sin, and point out, “Hey, you know what? I think this is an area you can grow in Christ,” and she can do it in truth and love, but it’s a real blessing. It’s a real help.

Ann:Let’s talk about this a little bit. You guys talk about it in your book, in your letters. You talk about the importance of going to church as a couple. And honestly since the pandemic, a lot of people, especially your age, are leaving the church, and maybe they left for a while, but they haven’t come back. Why is it so important, do you think, that young and old married couples are in the church?

Spencer:Yeah, the church is where all the action is. If I had everybody to remember a phrase, it’d be that one: the church is where all the action is in God’s plan. So God is saving a people from every tribe and tongue and nation, and He’s including them in His people, the Church, which is His family. And what’s really striking is that every piece of marriage advice, almost every piece of marriage advice in the Bible is written to a letter in the context of a church, right?

Paul is writing about marriage in Ephesians 5, the passage that’s always read at every wedding. Who is he writing? To a bunch of Christians in a church. 1 Corinthians 13, it’s written to a bunch of Christians in a church. Marriage advice in the Bible happens in the context of the local church.

Sean:And letters; I just now realized that the letters, that’s another reason why we chose our title as well.

Spencer:That’s right. It’s funny. The Bible’s advice assumes the church for romance. So it assumes it throughout because that’s where all the advice comes. Okay, so here’s a couple of things. If I’m talking to a couple and they’re like, “Alright, tell me why I need to go to church in my marriage. Do we really need to prioritize this?”

Ann:“We can just watch it on TV.”

Spencer:Yeah. “Do we really need to do this? It’s a lot. It’s our one day to sleep in. What do we do?” I want to say to somebody, “Okay, first off, do you want your marriage to grow in a way that honors God?” Most Christians are going to say, “Absolutely.” I’m going to say, “Okay, listen. At church is the place where you are going to be hearing the Bible preached regularly, and your relationship needs to be built on the truth of God’s Word. The Bible says that the church is the pillar and buttress of truth. It holds it up in the culture and it holds it up for us to see in our relationships.”

“The second thing is that the church is going to be the place where you’re going to be in relationships with other Christians who—Ephesians 4:15—are going to speak the truth in love into your life.”

In our dating and engagement and marriage, the most crucial parts and moments of our dating, engagement, and marriage were punctuated with couples from our local church speaking into our life. When we were deciding to date, there were older couples who loved God who were speaking into that and giving us counsel.

When we were about to get married, there was Ward and Heather, who were speaking into our life, helping us think through conflict, and they were a part of our church. They were seeing us on Sunday, and they were seeing us on Tuesday, and they were there when the conflicts were happening. They were seeing all the ugly stuff that was coming out. They were there, and they were applying God’s truth to our life.

And now we’re married, and look, we’ve written books on dating, engagement and marriage. I would say at least once a year, me and Taylor are trying to figure something out in our marriage, or we’re in a conflict in our marriage, and we’re like, “We can’t figure this out. We can’t figure this out. We need help.” And we call an older godly couple, and we say, “Hey, we need to talk.” And they’re like, “Okay, you need to talk. Let’s set something up.” “No, we need to talk tonight about this! Seriously.”

Dave:“We’re in your driveway.”

Spencer:“We’re coming over right now to talk about this. This is urgent. We’ve got to get on the same page.” I’m just saying that is the gift of the Body of Christ, and the real question is not, “Why should we go to church?” It’s “Why would you not?” When we know what God’s design is, why would we want to prioritize anything else in our life out of this incredible gift that God has given us? It’s not perfect. It’ll hurt you sometimes, but it will also build into your marriage for a lifetime.

Sean:A screen doesn’t know you. A screen is just a screen. But people in the church, to what Spencer’s saying, they know you. They can speak and say, “Oh yeah, you do have a blind spot.” “Oh yeah, you got a booger in your nose.” “Oh yeah, you got something on your face. Let’s get that off. Let me help you out.” And you can be like, “Oh, wow, I do. Thank you. I needed that.” It’s a real gift the screen just can’t give.

Spencer:We need to build into our lives—in a culture in which we are more lonely and isolated than ever—we need to build into our lives, places for our marriage where we can’t hide. And if we hide, we will not thrive and we will not glorify God in the way He wants us to. We were built for the Body of Christ.

Actually, one of the things I would say to a couple if you’re thinking about this right now is, if you’re a believer, God has made the church to be a blessing in your life. But then He’s made you to be a blessing in the life of other couples. You do not know the people who you are meant to be ministering to right now that are not being ministered to. You don’t know how God’s going to use your story. You don’t know how God’s going to use where you are right now, in five years, to bless somebody who’s going to be where you are. Avail yourself of that.

Ann:And you guys are talking about more than just attending a church for that hour and then leaving, and then not having anything to do with anybody, a small group. You’re saying this is your local body of believers that you’re invested in, that you’re spending time in, that you’re serving and loving. You guys are both in a church. You’re pastors, so this is your soapbox.

Spencer:Yeah.

Sean:Yeah, this is it.

Ann:Yeah, this is it.

Dave:Well, we speak—we have for almost 40 years now—at marriage conferences around the country. We do our own Vertical Marriage weekend, and we do FamilyLife Weekend to Remember®. You guys know this. At the end of the conference, actually from the beginning to the end, we’re always saying, “This conference won’t change your marriage. What you do after will so we’re going to give you a great, biblical—God’s Word—but if you don’t do anything after, you’re not going to be any better in six months. You may be better for a couple of weeks, but six months later you’ll be like, ‘That didn’t work.’”

And I’ll never forget. I was speaking to athletes in Iowa. This was decades ago, and I’m walking through this hotel lobby with this 6’6” Iowa college basketball player, and this woman is sitting in the lobby. She yells, “Hey, you!” And we both look. I don’t know this lady; he doesn’t know this lady. So we just sort of to be nice we go, “Are you talking to one of us?” She goes, “Yeah, the bald guy.” And so we walk over, both of us, and I say, “Do I know you?” She goes, “I went to a marriage conference three years ago in Des Moines. Did you speak?” It was FamilyLife.

I go, “Yeah, yeah, I spoke there.” Ann wasn’t with me. I was with another couple, and I was the single male guy there. Anyway, long story short, I said to her, “How was the conference?” And she goes, “Life-changing, amazing, best thing we ever did for our marriage.” And then she got this look of despair, and I said, “Well, how are you doing now?” She said, “We didn’t make it.”

Spencer:Oh, no.

Dave:I said, “What do you mean you didn’t make it?” She said, “Well, we’re not divorced, but we’re separated and we’re not doing well.” And I said, “Huh.” I said, “Can I ask you a question?” I’ll never forget this moment. She goes, “Sure, what?” I go, “When we talked at the weekend, do you remember us saying, ‘Get plugged into a local church, and there’s some resources you need to get connected with other couples?” I said, “Can I just ask you an honest question? Did you do that?” She goes, “No, we did nothing after that conference.” And I said, “Can I pray for you?” And I walked away.

I remember saying to that dude, I said, “Dude, listen to what happened there. It was a great weekend. It did nothing because the local church is where this is”—all you said, what’d you say?

Spencer:Local church is where all the action is.

Dave:It’s where the action is.

Ann:I like that, because it sounds like you don’t want to miss it.

Sean:That’s right.

Spencer:That’s right.

Dave:I would just say—I mean, we’re at the end of another day. I would just say listening to a podcast is not going to change your marriage either.

Sean:That’s so true.

Dave:It’s helpful. It’s why we do it. But if you don’t do what these guys are saying right here, and we’re not saying it because we’re pastors and in ministry. We’re saying it because that’s the way God made the Body of Christ. You can watch it on screen. You can sing a song in your living room by yourself. It’s nothing like standing beside flesh and blood people you don’t even like beside you, singing a song and then getting connected in a small group with other couples who are ahead of you.

I’m guessing you guys are now pouring into other couples behind you. That’s the beauty of the church. And I’m just going to remind you, if you don’t do that, I can promise you one thing: nothing’s going to change in your life. And if you do that, I can promise you something else: God will show up and do something in your life. Listen to what these guys are saying.

Ann:And let me add, Dave, too. It will change the lives of your kids.

Sean:Amen.

Ann:Get into a church that they’re preaching the gospel, that they’re studying the Word, and that you’re connecting with other couples. It’s life changing, and it’s what Jesus intended.

Spencer:Amen.

Dave:We are Dave and Ann Wilson, and we’ve been talking to Sean Perron and Spencer Harmon about their book Letters to a Romantic. That’s a book I need.

Ann:I really like these guys, and I wish we would’ve read a book like this before we got married.

Dave:Well, you can; go to FamilyLifeToday.com. You can pick up their book series called Letters to a Romantic. There’s one on dating, on engagement, and on the first years of marriage. They’re in our show notes. Go to FamilyLifeToday.com, click the link there and get any one of those.

Ann:FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife®, a Cru® Ministry. Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.

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