Dave & Ann’s Conflict Cycle: Debra Fileta

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson – Web Version Transcript

This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.

Dave and Ann’s Conflict Cycle

Guest:Debra Fileta

From the series:Dave and Ann’s Conflict Cycle (Day 1 of 1)

Air date:November 27,2024

Debra: You have control means you have a role. If I actually want control, I have to realize that I do have a role. And if I don’t have a role, then this can just keep happening over, and over, and over; and it’s out of my—there’s nothing I can do about it—“This is just who he is.”

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave:So we’re going to get fixed today.

Ann: Aren’t you happy about this?

Dave:I don’t know; am I?

Ann: I am.

Dave:It’s a little scary. Tell our listeners what we’re doing today.

Ann: So Debra—

Dave:This will be a different type of program; this will be fun.

Ann: Debra Fileta, who is our favorite counselor—Debra, we love everything that you do; we love you—you’re a therapist; you’re a counselor; you’re a mom; you’re—

Dave:—an author.

Ann: —an author.

Dave:—author of seven books.

Ann: You’re homeschooling your kids.

We have loved being with you. One of the reasons I’ve loved being with you is because: when we talk, you enter into our lives as a therapist. You dig deep into some of our issues.

Debra: I love digging,—

Dave: You do!

Debra: —just ask my husband.

Dave: “Go get the dirt.”

Dave:And you do this as a show, right?—on YouTube a podcast called Talk to Me.

Debra: Talk to Me.

Dave: Tell our listeners what you do,—

Debra: Talk to Me—

Dave: —because you’re sort of going to do it today.

Debra: Yeah, we sort of are. Talk to Me: the Debra Fileta Podcast, and I have on-air counseling sessions with hotline callers—with different people from across the country—with leaders; oftentimes, notable leaders; teachers; sometimes people that you would recognize; other times, just a hotline caller that you wouldn’t recognize.

Ann: Yeah, we watched JP Pokluda, was with you.

Debra: Yeah—JP—we talked about dad wounds on that episode. And we go deep; we go deep.

Ann: That’s why I love you.

Dave:That’s why I’m scared. Our producer, Jim, and our engineer, Bruce, had this idea—which I don’t know if I like it, but I’m going to do it—where we share a conflict we’ve had, and you sort of step into it.

Debra: —unpack it.

Dave:Yeah; “Okay; what’s really going on here?” We haven’t had one recently; but a lot of our listeners are familiar with a story that’s in our Vertical Marriage book, and in our Vertical Marriage video curriculum, that we’ll try and tell in a shortened version. It’s a ten-minute story on video, but we’ll do it quickly.

Ann: And let me add—this kind of conflict in the topic—the underlying issue continues to recycle in our marriage and still does. I think a lot of couples—is it true that they have a conflict that recycles?—the kind of, not the same conflict, but the issue?

Debra: I always start with a couple by saying: “Tell me about your conflict cycle. What is that conflict that keeps coming up again, and again, and again? What’s the pattern? If you had to recognize some sort of a pattern of conflict—‘He does this; and I do this,’ or ‘She does this; and then, this is how I respond,’—what would your conflict cycle be?”

Ann: Okay, as a listener, think about that question: “What would your conflict cycle be?”

Debra: “Give me a glimpse of the conflict cycle.”

Dave: “I couldn’t even see it when it happened; but now, I look back: ‘Yeah, this was our cycle.’”

It’s a situation that took place on a Sunday morning, when I was preaching at my church. It was the third service; it’s in between the third service. Five minutes before the service is going to start, I’m out in the lobby, saying, “Hi,” to people. Ann whips in with our car; and there’s a parking spot right by the front door, like the closest spot. There’s one empty there. I’m outside, in Michigan; and I see her whip in. She jumps out, with two of our boys, and starts walking up, smiling, and happy that she found this great parking spot.

Ann: And I’ll say I’m late, super late. I think one of our sons was in college, the other was 16; the other was 13. And so I get there, and I see that spot right by the front door; I’m like, “Thank You, Jesus!” I whip in there; and then, I see Dave. I’m like, “Look at you out here, smiling and saying, ‘Hi,’ to everybody.” I greet him; I’m happy to see him, and he has this look of anger. He whispers in my ear, “Move the car now.”

Dave:And she says, “I’m not moving the car. God gave me that spot.” I’m like, God didn’t give me that spot; move the car.” She goes, “I’m not moving the car.” I grabbed the keys, and I flip them to our son, Austin, who’s 16.

Ann: And I stand in front of Austin, with my arms open; I’m like, “He is not moving the car.”

Dave:And I, literally, almost pushing her out of the way. At the same time, Debra, I’m like, “Hey, welcome to Kensington”; it’s this total fake thing.

Debra: So are people aware; or is this just like you guys are quietly going, back and forth, and nobody—

Dave:If you were looking close, you could tell there’s a little friction; but mostly, it was covered up. I was literally pretending: “Hey, welcome…” “Move the car; you got to move the car,” “Hey, how you doing?

Debra: So what’s your underlying reasoning? You want her to move the car for what reason?

Dave: Well, wait—

Ann: He goes in; he has to preach. I sit in the back row.

Dave:I mean, we didn’t have time to fix it. I, literally, “I got to go preach”; and I run into church.

Ann: I sit in the back row. I look at him, and I think, “I don’t even like the pastor of this church. Look at him up there.”

Dave:And I’m up there, preaching away.

Here’s what happens: I come home. It’s an hour later, after that incident; and I walk in the kitchen, and it’s on—I’m still mad—we never resolved it. I don’t know if the car got moved or not; I had to go in, and I’m pretty sure it didn’t get moved. And so I walk in; and right away,—

Ann: —he’s yelling.

Dave:We don’t yell a lot in our fights anymore—even at that time—but I’m pretty hot. I’m like, “I cannot believe you parked there. What were you thinking?” And she’s barking, back and forth. I’ll never forget—our youngest son, Cody, who’s now a pastor—but he was 13. He’s sitting at the kitchen table; and he, literally, raises his hand. I remember looking at him—I don’t have time for this; we’re in the middle of this thing—but I’m like, “What?!” Again, I’m amped up.

He goes, “Hey, don’t you and Mom travel around the country and teach couples how to resolve?”—that’s what he says. I’m like, “Oh, yeah.” And he goes, “Could you, maybe, show me?” I’m like, “Maybe.” It got so bad; Ann goes upstairs, she’s like, “I’m done.” She leaves, and I’m sitting there. Again, nobody knows what the fight’s about.

Here’s what the fight’s about: I was one of the founders of this church. And when we had 40 people—and now, we have tens of thousands of people with all these campuses—we set core values for the church, one of the things founders do. One of our core values—not saying other churches should do this, but it was ours; and it’s still a core value, 30 years later—was we leave the best parking spots for our guests, for our visitors.

Ann: They were already there;—

Dave:Yes.

Ann: —I was so late. They were already there.

Dave:So there’s this spot right by the front door. Our whole church knows this—we used to have a membership thing; and we’d say, “Hey, put up your right hand and say, ‘I will now take the worst parking spots and leave the ones by the front door for people that are trying to find God.’” I used to say, “If we take that parking spot, they’re going to end up in hell. So we got to make sure…”—I’m kidding—but it was like that was a core value of our church. And so, I’m like, “Not only is she violating it, she’s the pastor’s wife; and they’re all watching,”—that’s what I was thinking. I was mad that she was violating a core value.

Ann: So I left the room, not because I’m avoiding conflict; I go upstairs to get ammunition, like, “Oh, I’m going to let him have it.” I go upstairs; I’m there for probably ten minutes. I come down with this very dramatic entrance; and I’m like, “Here’s the truth.” I mean, I am big: “I do everything around here!

I am taking care of the kids.

I’m going to parent/teacher conferences.

I am mowing the grass.

I’m taking care of the cars.

And everybody’s like, “Oh, Dave, you’re amazing.”

I am getting it done and holding it down.

You know what? When it’s snowing in Michigan, I’m in the back of the parking lot, carrying babies in their infant seats through the snow, trudging in while you’re—

“Oh, Dave; you’re amazing.”

I am wakeboarding just to hang with the guys.

I have learned how to snowboard just to be with the guys.

“So if there’s one Sunday—one Sunday—that there’s a parking spot by the front door,”—I mean, I say it loud—“I should get to take it!” And then, there’s just silence.

Dave:So we’re sitting there, and I’m not getting why she did that—

Ann: Well, maybe, we should just let Debra—

Dave:I’ll just say this: Cody looked me; he’s still there—and I’ll never forget: no word spoken—it was man to man, 13-year-old to his dad—he’s like, “Dad, you are toast.” It was just that look, like,—

Debra: —”She’s got a good point.”

Dave:“Oh, my goodness; she is making so much sense.” And you’re over there, complaining about a parking spot—no words were spoken—it was just this look.

Ann: So that conflict continues to cycle back. Even today, if there’s a conflict, it’s about me not feeling seen/important, like I matter.

Dave:No, no, no; let her tell us.

Ann: Okay; that’s what—I’m saying, “That’s what I feel,”—and that’s what’s still comes back.

Dave:There was an ending to this story that I’ll save;—

Debra: Okay.

Dave:—because when I heard that, I had a thought; and I asked her about it. But what do you see?

Debra: Well, I guess I would start with: “What is it that bothered you so much? What were you feeling that Ann was doing? How are you interpreting the situation to get to the anger?”

Ann: I love you!

Debra: You’re angry because what Ann is _____: fill in the blank of what your interpretation is.

Dave:I think it’s probably two things:

One, she’s violating something really important to me that she probably has said it’s important to her, too. I don’t know if it was or not, but it’s important to me; because I’m one of the leaders that set that value.

And number two, I think it made me look bad. I was like, “People are seeing that the pastor’s wife is not doing what he’s saying we should be about here.” I think that was probably at the bottom of it.

Ann: —making you look—

Dave:You think it was something else?

Ann: Oh, no; I haven’t thought about that for you. I haven’t analyzed your thing; that’s interesting.

Debra: It’s almost like she’s disrespecting you and making you look bad. It was a moment of feeling—

Dave:“She’s not my teammate; she’s not my partner. She’s against me at this point.”

Debra: —disrespected; unseen in a similar way; unheard; not important—all of those things.

And you’re [Ann] feeling what, underneath the surface?

Ann: I’m feeling like: “Well, of course, you’re mad about it; because the church is always—your job—is more important than me. You’re caring for the church; you’re spending time with the church. The people are more important. And so I’m trudging through the snow, and you could care less, because the people at the church are way more important; and you care more what they think about you than what I think about you.”

And then, there’s this little rebelliousness in me: “You know what? Maybe we should have the pastors’ wives park near the front, because we never have our husbands.” But the deep-down issue was I feel like I’m not seen; I’m just not a priority.

Debra: I am curious, Dave: “If there was nobody there to see her do that, and you weren’t going to look bad—nobody would ever know—do you think that would’ve made a difference?”

Dave:Honestly, I don’t think it would’ve made a difference. If my best—

Ann: What?! Really?!

Dave: —if Rob would’ve done that—one of my good friends, I think I was so committed to that value, which, by the way, I think is a stupid value now. I’m just—

Debra: Yeah, it’s a little much.

Dave:—it’s way past that.

Debra: It’s just a little much; it’s a little black and white. I would agree.

Dave:It was like we were so about that: “That just shows how much we care about the lost sheep.”

Debra: So for you, it was about her breaking a commitment.

Dave:Yeah; if my buddy, Rob, would’ve done it, I would’ve said, “Dude, move the car. What are you doing? You know that’s a value here; you’re a team player.” And he would’ve probably said, “I don’t care.” But I would’ve said the same thing to him.

But because it was her, it was more intimate than I think I was feeling disrespected as well. To a buddy, I would’ve been like, “Come on, guys. I parked way over there, and carried my guitar all the way up here; do the same thing.”

Debra: So it was less about what people thought and more about the fact that she was breaking a rule or commitment.

Ann: —which is so interesting, because you’re such a rule-breaker.

Dave:Yeah, I’m not a rule-keeper; but it was like, “We have agreed this is a value that matters, and you’re not with me at this point.” And again, I don’t even remember looking like, “Who’s seeing this?”; so I don’t think that was that important. It was just like, “You’re not seeing me: this matters to your husband.” And you’re like, “Who cares about what matters to you? I’m going to break it.” That’s what I think it was, at the root.

Ann: So you see us going, head to head—

Debra: Well, let me pause you for a second. For someone like Dave, who rarely has needs—

Ann: Yes, rarely; yeah.

Debra: —rarely kind of puts a stake in the ground of—

Ann: That’s true.

Debra: —“I need this,” “This matters to me.” I could see the one time something does actually matter to you, feeling like, “Wow, I guess it doesn’t matter to anybody else”; I could see that being a trigger point. It’s like: “I don’t have needs, to begin with; so the one time I do have a need or something that I think is important or significant, you just trample over it”; I could see that causing an emotional reaction.

Ann: And I would say, “Of course, his one need—what is it?—it’s not his own personal need; it’s not the family need.” Here’s what I said, “It’s Kensington; it’s the church.

Dave:—the church, the job.

Ann: “Of all the things that you finally express a need, it’s that you protect the church.” That’s what I would’ve said in that moment: “That seems messed up, and I’m not going to agree with it”; that was my rebelliousness. Do you know what I mean?

Debra: Right; I totally understand.

Ann: Do you think that I should honor that?—like, “Oh, he finally expressed a need,” and be like, “Wow, look at you expressing a need, as dumb as it is.”

Debra: That’s the tricky part. I think, in the ideal situation/ideally: he would’ve said, “Hey, this is really important to me,” and you would’ve said, “Sure; I understand that.” And he would’ve taken the keys and moved the car himself.

In an ideal situation—we both have needs—”I’m glad you’re here; glad you brought the kids. But this is so important to me, and I’m going to move the car myself.” And then, he moves the car and everybody—it’s a win-win. And then, processing: “Okay, what was that really all about?”

Ann: I think, if I would’ve said, “Deeper down, my issue is this is the typical thing: your job is more important than me. And you always choose/”—and I would’ve said that word, too—“your job always comes before me.” That was what my core thing was.

Dave:And the truth is: it was.

Debra: Yeah, especially in that moment, when you’re like, “Go move the car yourself”; clearly. If it was actually about the spot, you would’ve just moved it, and not made a big deal out of it.

Ann: —or had somebody else move it.

Debra: Right; well, your son.

Ann: I would have moved it.

Debra: But you were like, “No, nobody’s moving this car.”

Dave: I tried to get somebody—

Debra: That’s where you—see, this is how fights happen—it’s not just one wrong move. Okay, let’s just say Dave made a wrong move. How do we continue the conflict cycle?—Ann has to make a wrong move. And then, Dave has to respond with another wrong move. But if one person were to interrupt that, the whole thing changes. If one person would interrupt.

Ann: I could have moved the car; I could have moved the car.

Debra: You could have moved the car; you could have had your son move the car. You could have said to Dave, “You know what, Dave? I understand it’s important to you; this is a core value. Here’s the keys; I’ll be inside.”

Ann: It had nothing to do with the parking spot. It had everything to do with priority.

Dave: But, looking back—

Debra: All of the buildup of not feeling prioritized.

Ann: Yes, and this had been cycling. I think this had been going on a lot, in the last few weeks; so it was building, and it was building.

Dave:Well, I mean, the truth is I couldn’t see it. Yeah, it had been going on a lot—our whole marriage—this wasn’t the last few weeks.

If you go back to the kitchen, and she just barked out: “I do everything,”—dah, dah, dah; and “If there’s one time there’s a parking spot, I should be able to take it.” Here’s what happened—gets real quiet—I look at her, and I said, “Can I ask you a question?” And again, she’s across the kitchen; and she goes, “Yeah.” I go, “Do you feel like Kensington”—that’s our church—”Do you feel like Kensington’s more important to me than you are?” She didn’t even answer; she just goes—

Ann: “Yes”; shook my head.

Dave:Debra, that’s the first time I realized. I mean, everybody listens, like, “Dude, you’re so stupid. This fight was never about a parking spot, from the word, ‘Go.’” I did not know; that’s how naive and dumb I was until that second—because when she was saying all that, I was like, “She thinks my job’s more important than her?” I’m thinking, “That’s my job; they’re not even close. But is that what she’s saying?”—”Hey, do you feel like…”; and she goes, “Yeah.” I’m like, “This is not a fight about a parking spot; this is about her feeling [not] loved and cherished,”—all the stuff I preach—“’Husbands, love your wives as Christ loved the church. Lay down your life, nourish, and cherish her.’”

I wasn’t doing that, and I didn’t know it until that second. I’m like—and I’m telling you: five years before that, here’s how I would’ve responded; you’ll love this—I would’ve said, “That is so ridiculous! I love you more than the church!” I would’ve yelled at her, and that would have made her feel loved. The good thing is I’d grown enough to go: “Tell me more. What do I do? How do you feel that way?” I’m thinking, “It is not even close you—the church, the job—but if she says it’s this, it is this.”

Debra: Well, here’s what I’m curious, Ann. To me, that’s the point of explosion—this is the boom!—but the buildup has been happening. “So how have you been navigating the buildup of this?”

Ann: Yeah, I think I was stuffing it; and that’s why it erupted.

Debra: Because it shouldn’t have been new information to him, all these years later.

Ann: Well,—

Dave:And I would say, “I think she [had] been trying to communicate it.”

Ann: But I was yelling; I wasn’t communicating it in a healthy way.

Dave: I wasn’t hearing.

Ann: He didn’t hear it. I’d get louder; he’d ignore it. And Dave wasn’t liking conflict anyway. And I am like, “Let’s go, man!” I think that felt intimidating and big. We really needed you back then.

Debra: Yeah.

Dave:Well, I mean, our Vertical Marriage book is based on a conversation that took place ten years before that, in our car, where she says, “I’ve lost my feelings for you”; she was saying it then. Why’d she lose her feelings for me?—because I was out running, running, running; and she was unseen.

Debra: But here’s the problem: Ann has been communicating indirectly for so many years; and then, just starting to communicate more directly. Even that conversation, as you’re telling me, isn’t her direct communication. It’s you picking up the pieces of: “Wait a second; are you saying this…”

Ann: I agree.

Debra: And her saying, “Yes, that is what I’m saying,”—versus her sitting down and saying—“Listen, I don’t feel prioritized; I don’t feel loved. Here’s what’s going on inside of me,” “Here’s what I need from you…” [Instead] it’s [been] this passive/aggressive type of communication, which is so hard for the other person to understand.

Ann: Yes; I totally agree.

Debra: And then, you’re sitting there, feeling like the victim for all these years—which, in a way, you are—you’re a victim to the situation; but you’re, also, a victim to yourself in the fact that you aren’t able to kind of articulate what you need. I think that goes back to what we talked about—

Ann: —in a previous episode that we had you on.

Debra: —”Not Knowing My Needs”—not even being able to articulate; not even knowing if my needs should be shared: “Do I put this on Dave and tell him what I need?” or “Do I just keep stuffing and dealing?” That angry list of all the things you had been doing—in a way, the hard truth is—you were doing them because you chose to do them instead of putting them on him, and telling him what you needed.

Ann: Yes, or even asking him. I had a martyr complex; and then, I would do everything; and then, I’d pat myself on the back, and say, “I do everything around here. He doesn’t even notice.” That’s on me.

Dave:And then, the other side is she grew up in a family where she just got things done; because she wasn’t seen. The brothers were seen; the boys were seen.

Debra: Yes, exactly. The assumption is—

Dave: — “I grew up in a family, [where] I wasn’t seen, and I made life happen. So here we are, now married.”

Debra: And why you guys function so well together is because you were comfortable with living unseen.

Ann: Yes.

Debra: Until it got to the point where you couldn’t handle it anymore. You were comfortable, living unseen in the relationship with Dave, until you got to a breaking point. I wish you had become uncomfortable, way earlier, so that you could have said, “Listen, something’s got to change, Dave. Something’s got to change; we can’t function like this anymore.” Because it almost allowed him to live in his dysfunction by not confronting what was happening.

Ann: Exactly. And we still struggle with this, because we still have some of the same tendencies. Let’s say, not too long ago, I had said to Dave—now, we’re running together—before, I’m home with the kids; I’m taking care of the house and all that—but I said to him, not too long ago, “Dave, I can’t/this pace is too hard for me.” I painted a visual; I said, “It feels like you’re sprinting as fast as you can go. I’ve been trying to run with you; but now, all I’ve done is I’m holding onto your belt loop/your belt; and my feet are flying up in the air. You’re running fast; and I’m just holding on, with my feet in the air, trying to stay with you.” He heard that—I wasn’t mad—I was just saying, “This is where I am; I can’t do it like this anymore.” And you totally heard it. And even the visual helped you really to get it.

Dave:At first I was like, “Isn’t this great?! I’m running; your holding on”; and then, I’m like, “No, this isn’t great.” It’s back to soul care; it’s back to rhythms; it’s all that. I mean, it’s like, “I got to hear this; and then, change.”

Debra: This reminds me of so many couples I work with, who think they’ve communicated something—“Of course, he should know,” “Of course, she should know. Look at the situation,”—but have you sat down and directly, clearly talked about your part? “This is what I’m feeling,” “This is what I am experiencing,” “This is what I need,”—

Ann: —without being explosive.

Debra: Right; and it rarely happens.

Ann: It doesn’t?

Debra: And when you do slow down, and have that conversation, it’s rare for things to stay unresolved when you can have a conversation of: “Hey, here’s what I’m struggling with…” “Here’s what I need…” “Here’s what it spoke to me when you took that parking spot…” “Here’s what it spoke to me when you wouldn’t let me take that parking spot…” “Here’s what it going on; let’s understand each other.”

It’s like, “Okay, I understand you; I understand your perspective. I might not have had the same reaction; because we’re different people, with different backgrounds, with different trauma. But I understand why you did; I could see that.” And now, we understand each other; and we can move forward together, and do it better this [next] time around.

Ann: I’m assuming you would say, “Sometimes, you need a third party to come in, to have new eyes on it, to be able to help you to see each other.”

Debra: Yeah, for sure. I mean, at the time, for you to be able to say, “Oh, I’m functioning as a victim, right now, rather than taking power and ownership of the situation,” we probably would’ve needed someone to help you see that, who wasn’t Dave.

Ann: Right.

Debra: And for someone to say to you: “Dave, you’re living in isolation. You’re just focused on your needs and nobody else’s.” That would have taken somebody, other than Ann, most likely, to help you get there sooner.

But also, to confront the fact that both of you had a role in this. We could have looked at Dave as the bad guy here. But honestly, you both were making mistakes, leading up to this moment. And you both have things to own.

Ann: I agree. And I think, back in the day, I would’ve said, in almost every one of our fights, I would’ve said, “He’s the problem,” which leaves me as being the victim.

Debra: —again.

Ann: And I never saw that before.

Debra: The more you have control means you have a role. If I actually want control, I have to realize that I do have a role. And if I don’t have a role, then this can just keep happening over, and over, and over—and it’s out of my/there’s nothing I can do about it—“This is just who he is.”

When really, you can do so much about it—you could have set boundaries; you could have had conversations—but that’s hard. And it’s easier to be like: “He’s just oblivious,” “He just doesn’t care about me,”—living out of your own unseen wounds, putting that on him.

And funny that we’re kind of focusing in on Ann today; because I feel like, in the past, we’ve really focused in on you, Dave.

Dave:I deserved it.

Debra: But maybe today is the idea that I think so many women feel like the victim in their marriage.

Ann: —and their husband is at fault.

Debra: And a hundred percent of the time, the husband is at fault—but we’re also—“What’s my role here?” “Have I communicated what I need in a healthy way?” “Have I set healthy boundaries?” “Have I dealt with my childhood trauma?” “How am I interpreting what he’s saying, or doing, and needing in the moment?”

You’re interpreting it as: “He doesn’t care about me”; because that’s all you’ve lived, and grown, and seen; and you’ve never interrupted that cycle—rather than: “He’s just honoring these values that we’ve both…”—you’re interpreting it through your trauma.

Ann: That’s it.

Debra: And of course, you’re going to be mad—of course, it’s going to be: “He’s the bad guy,”—but if you actually look at that situation, in isolation, what he did wasn’t wrong/wasn’t that bad. But he could have done it better—and then, the cycle—the whole thing just kind of blew up.

Ann: And I could have, too.

Dave:Well, and I said earlier—I think that value, that we created at our church—now, I think that is such a dishonoring value to our leaders’ wives/our staffs’ wives. Again, I’m not saying that the person we’re trying to reach is unimportant; they’re important. But to say to our staff wives, which we did for decades: “You park in the back of the thing, because everybody else matters more than you.” And again, I’m not saying, “Hey, first lady, parking right by the front door.” Every church has their own thing; they do what they want. But that was a strong statement to our marriages on staff that—

Debra: I would agree with that.

Dave: —marriages are secondary; people that we’re trying to reach are primary.

Ann: —especially, with young kids and babies. It was hard.

Dave:I was like, “What was I thinking?” It was just like, “Come on.”

Ann: But Debra, this is really helpful, I think.

Dave:Well, I think it’s really helpful; because I think that scenario is not that uncommon—you know better than anybody—in many marriages, where—

Debra: It could have been anything. It could have been a parking spot; it could have been where you chose to eat at a restaurant. It could have been anything in that moment, where Ann would’ve been like, “I am done suppressing my needs.” And you had to get to that point,—

Dave: —speak them out.

Debra: —to be honest with you.

Ann: I think so, too.

Debra: You have to say, “I’m done; I’m done doing this in the same way that we’ve done before,” and “Something needs to change, and here’s what it looks like…” God, in His mercy, helped you guys figure that out and kind of put words to it. God, in His mercy, gave Dave the wisdom to be able to say, “Is this what’s actually going on underneath the surface?”

Ann: Wasn’t that sweet? Yes.

Debra: Because the fact that you pieced that together, and were able to help her put it into words, just shows you how hard it was for you to put that into words.

Ann: Right. And I didn’t want to put it into words, at that point; isn’t that terrible? When Dave said he prayed, I’m like, “I don’t want to pray.” I think some people can feel like that, because I want to just vent all of my emotion.

Dave:I was going to say—we didn’t even say I prayed—here’s the one little insight I left out. When Ann went upstairs, I’m sitting there with Cody, it’s real quiet. I prayed; and I remember this was my prayer, “Lord, I’m missing something; I don’t know what I’m missing. Help me see what I’m missing.” And then, there it was! I was like, “God really answered that prayer.” I didn’t come up with that wisdom.

Ann: Totally answered it.

Dave:It was like, “Thank You.”

Debra: Well, let me tell you this: we have these emotional sore spots called “triggers.”

Ann: We’ve talked about this with you.

Debra: When you see someone exploding, you know you hit a sore spot. It is not about what’s going on; it’s about something deeper. You may not have caused the deeper wound, but you’re pressing on it. And so the question is: “What is the deeper wound I’m pressing on here?” In that moment, for Ann, it was feeling unseen—feeling like she wasn’t a priority; feeling unloved—and that goes way back to her childhood, but also patterns in your marriage.

Dave:What was it for me?

Debra: Well, it doesn’t sound like you had the biggest reaction. It sounds like she had a big reaction.

Dave:But I do think—and it’s something you said to us on Talk to Me when we were on your show—you sort of dove into my trauma, growing up. You used this term—I’ve never forgotten—I was like, “I want to write a book called “Mirror Marriage: How Your Spouse Is a Mirror to Your Wounds.”

Even in that moment, I couldn’t see it then; but in looking back, it’s like Ann was a mirror to my need to perform and be recognized—which is a lie I grew up with: Dad left; Mom left—”I got to perform to be valued.” Being a pastor on a stage with a mega church is performing: “You’re hurting that right now.”

Debra: Right; you were living in your patterns.

Dave:And so I couldn’t see—in that moment, when she blew up and got mad—she was revealing something about me, which I needed to see. Like you said: “When somebody blows up, you hit a sore spot; and there’s a root to that.” That’s, thankfully, what we were able to see.

But I’m thinking there is a couple, listening, like, “This is our marriage.” It may be: “He does this,” or “She does this”; but one feels not seen or not important. You modeled for us—”How do you do it? How do you bring that up?” —you got to bring that out in the light, and say, “Let’s talk. Here’s what I’m feeling.”

Debra: And I think the best time to talk is not in the heat of the emotion, when everyone’s being triggered. I always say, “Fight physical with physical”; so when you’re having these physical symptoms, and you’re overwhelmed with emotion, do something physical to calm yourself down: take a walk; take a break; take a breather—whatever.

Ann: —say a prayer.

Debra: —say a prayer; go outside.

Dave:—work out.

Debra: And then, when both of you are back online—I always say, “Your brain’s back online,”—then we can sit down and talk through it. If you keep hitting a wall, and you just can’t talk through it, you need to invite a third party to help you.

Ann: Hey, I think what we’re talking about is great. As you’re listening, if there’s something on today’s episode that you’re just clicking with, we want you to know that you’re not alone because every single marriage has its fair share of highs, but also lows.

Dave:And if you’re like us, you’re wondering, “Where do we get help?”

Ann: Exactly.

Dave: “Where can we go to get help?” Well, first of all, you’re getting help right now; and we’re thankful that you’re listening. But we also want to share one of our favorite resources. It’s a free guide that’s filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real life couples who’ve been where you are. And you can grab your free copy—free copy today—at FamilyLife.com/MarriageHelp. That’s FamilyLife.com/MarriageHelp.

Shelby: That was a beautiful counseling session, huh? I hope you learned a lot by being a fly on the wall during this conversation with the Wilsons. Working out your problems and your conflict is not easy, but it’s completely worth doing; because when we reconcile with our spouse, we honor the Prince of Peace Himself, Jesus. I loved it. I’m Shelby Abbott; and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Debra Fileta, on FamilyLife Today.

Do you follow us on social media? You can head over to Instagram and find us at FamilyLife Insta, or find us on Facebook. Just search for FamilyLife for more regular encouragement about marriage and parenting.

Now, coming up tomorrow, it’s Thanksgiving Day; and I’m so excited for it. Well, Brad Formsma is going to be here to give us insights on teaching kids generosity and fostering a life of kindness. That’s coming up tomorrow on Thanksgiving Day; we hope you’ll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife®, a Cru® Ministry.

Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.

If you’ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?

Copyright © 2024 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.

www.FamilyLife.com