Discernment: How to Sharpen Your Toolset, with Allen Parr

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript

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Discernment: How to Sharpen Your Toolset

Guest:Allen Parr

From the series:Misled: 7 Lies that Distort the Gospel (Day 2 of 2)

Air date:August 13, 2024

Dave: Hey, before we get started today, I have to read you a comment that came in from one of our listeners: she said, “I realized, listening today, that it was shame that I’ve been feeling my whole life. This broadcast just nailed it on the head. I’ve spent my whole life trying to find love and acceptance; and after hearing this show, it just made sense: ‘God does love me.’ When Ann said the line, ‘You are already loved,’ I cried; I said, ‘That’s for me! I’m already loved.’”

Ann: I’m telling you [emotion in voice]: it’s when people are impacted like that—that makes me cry—because that’s our hope, that people meet Jesus and be helped.

Dave: I think that’s why we do what we do. That’s what all of us want: we want to make a difference; we want to leave a mark. FamilyLife® is all about leaving a mark and helping you leave a mark. Let me tell you: we have a financial goal, in the month of August, so that we can leave a mark and you can leave a mark. You won’t believe this: the goal is $250,000.

Ann: We think we can do it; so we are asking: “Will you help us reach that goal?”

Dave: Jump in with us, at any level; FamilyLifeToday.com is where you can do that; become a partner. If you jump in with us, we can make a mark in your life; and you and I can make a mark on all kinds of people for legacies and generations to come.

And, guess what? If you jump in with us in August, we’re going to send you Brant Hanson’s book, Unoffendable.

Ann: —and—

Dave: —and a pen [Laughter]—a FamilyLife limited-edition pen—you know, “Make a mark”; that’s what pens do. You’re going to use it to carve up through Brant’s book.

Ann: It’s so good.

Dave: It’s a crazy great book. Let me just say this: “We need you; we love you. We want to partner together—when you and I/you and we partner together—we can change the world. So let’s jump in together today.”

Allen: There’s got to be a way, as parents, where we communicate our extreme, consistent love—that: “We are committed to you, 100 percent, [to] your well-being,”—but love does not mean acceptance: “I can still love you, but that doesn’t mean I can accept every decision you make in your life.”

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave: One of the things that rarely happened, when I preached for 30 years,—I don’t know if it ever happened; I’m sure it happened a couple of times—but hardly ever did anyone in the congregation come up, after a sermon, and say I taught something that they thought was in error.

Ann: I might have. [Laughter]

Dave: Oh, yes; you did. She did that every single week—

Allen: That’s impressive.

Dave: —told me what I should and shouldn’t say.

Allen: That’s what God gave us wives for. [Laughter]

Dave: Yes, there you go! [Laughter]

We’ve got Allen Parr with us again today, who’s written a book on theology and not being misled.

Allen, I’d love to hear your perspective—I was just thinking about that—I sort of wanted that. It would be nice if a guy or a buddy came up, and said, “Hey, I know the Bible; and I’m not sure you…” That never happened. Do you know why?—because most of the people in the church don’t know their Bible very well.

Ann: —don’t know their Bibles.

Allen: Right.

Dave: And they wouldn’t know, I don’t think, if I was in error or if I was right on. Now, my elders/our elders were watching; and they were careful—that was part of their job—to make sure we were staying biblical.

You are writing a book to help people understand, you said, the seven lies that distort the gospel.

Allen: Sure.

Dave: You’ve been doing this for quite a while. Do you find people pushing back, even on what you are doing? You’re on YouTube® every single day.

Ann: Oh, you’ve got to get pushback on YouTube; don’t you?

Allen: Oh, I get tons of pushback on You Tube. YouTube is—there’s a lot of pushback—I get DM’s (for those of you who don’t know, that’s Direct Messages) through Instagram®, Facebook®; we get comments on YouTube channel; we get emails. A lot of it is just because people have been taught incorrectly. They don’t know how to study the Bible in context; and their pastor preaches “this,” or comes from a certain theological bent or bias, and so they think that I’m teaching error because maybe they’ve been taught something different.

I’m not going to say that I have perfect theology; I wouldn’t be as arrogant to say that I’ve never made a mistake or anything like that. I think all of us are developing our understanding, and I need to be humble about that. But there are some things that are just clearly off—that many churches, and pastors, and ministers, and Christians are promoting—and a lot of it comes from people, not knowing how to study the Word of God properly.

Ann: Yes; and if you pick up the book, you might not even agree, Allen, with some of the things that you are saying. But we talked yesterday about there are essentials of the gospel that are mandatory for our faith and our belief.

But there are also some things that are going on that—some of you may not agree with it—but it creates a great discussion. As we talked yesterday, too: “What does the Word of God say about some of these topics?”

Dave: Again, we don’t have time to go through all seven; but just so the listener knows, you tackle:

“If I haven’t spoken in tongues, am I missing out?”

“Are health and wealth guaranteed for all the faithful?”

“Do I really have the power to speak things into existence?”

“What about prophets and prophecy?”

Here’s one I would love to tackle today—it may take our whole time; I don’t know—

“What does progressive Christianity teach?”

I’m guessing some listeners are thinking, “I don’t know what you are talking about. What is progressive Christianity?”—it feels like it is everywhere.

Allen: Yes, Progressive Christianity is becoming more and more popular. For those of you, who are not familiar with that, progressive Christianity is a branch of religion. I say it that way, because I’m careful not to label it as Christianity. Essentially, what is happening is there are people who want to have the best of both worlds:

They want to have Christ but on their own terms.

They want to have the Bible but only when it’s consistent or in agreement with how they want to live.

As we’ll share in just a moment, they’ll kind of rip out parts of the Bible; and “If it applies to me, then, I’ll take it; and if not, I’m going to throw that part out.” Largely, the Old Testament/many of things in the Old Testament are thrown out. The idea of being progressive is that, because our culture has progressed in certain areas—as it relates to moral issues, or inclusivism, and things of that nature—then, the assumption is that God has also progressed in these areas.

And Christians: “You’re a stone-aged Christian if you are still believing these things:

if you still believe that marriage is only between a man and a woman;

if you still believe that if you were born a man then that’s how you need to identify;

and things of that nature.

You’re a stone-aged Christian if you believe those things. The culture has progressed; we’ve gotten to a different place. God has progressed; so therefore, Christians need to as well.”

It’s heartbreaking to see churches that are becoming progressive; pastors who have gone full-blown progressive. It’s a result of us not being bold enough to take a stand against culture; we are allowing ourselves to be influenced by the culture. As culture is shifting, many Christians are shifting along with it, not realizing that God has not progressed in His beliefs on certain things; and we, as Christians, should not progress on these things, either.

Ann: Let’s get into some of that. I’m thinking of parents, as their kids are coming home, and—

Dave: I think the big one, as you think about parents, is “inclusive.”

Allen: Yes.

Dave: As you think about, like you said, marriage—here at FamilyLife—this is a ministry that’s been around 40-plus years; its foundation is the Word of God. The foundation for marriage is one man, one woman/covenant of marriage. We’ve always believed that; we still believe that. If there are any listeners, who wonder, “Are you still there?” Oh, yes; of course, we’re there.

But our kids—a lot of us, as parents/a lot of churches; I pastored a church—and there’s always that: you want to be relevant to the culture and be able to speak the truth to the current culture, but the truth doesn’t change. “How do you help your kids understand what the Bible says and how that’s not being progressive?”

Allen: I would want to point out to them: “What are some of the specific signs or tendencies—[of] a ‘progressive Christian’ or a ‘progressive church’—what are some of the things you need to look out for?”

One would be a low view of Christ. The idea is that Christ really is not necessarily our Savior, because we don’t need to be saved from our sin; because we don’t really believe in original sin: “We are all good people, trying to progress. But Christ is really more of our example—he loved people; he treated people well—so therefore, when you look at Christ, don’t look at him as a Savior; look at him as an example for us to follow in terms of how he treated people and how he was inclusive of all people from all parts of life.”

That’s another thing that you want to look for: low view of Christ [and] inclusivism. This one is a huge one because, oftentimes, what many progressive Christians will want to do is redefine what the word, “love,” means. They want to equate love with acceptance; they’ll say, “Jesus accepted everyone. Jesus loved everyone; so therefore, we should as well.”

Not realizing, as I point out in the book many times, is that, “Yes, Jesus does love us; but nowhere in the Gospels does it teach that Jesus co-signed for their sin”; right? Yes, He accepted them for where they were with the desire—to take them to where He wanted them to be—which was a fully-devoted follower of Christ. So yes, we need to accept people where they are; but love doesn’t mean we accept their whole lifestyle.

Another pillar of progressive Christianity would be a relaxed view on moral issues.

Low view of Scripture is another one: cherry picking which parts of the Bible that you want.

Dave: Yes; I like, even in the book, how you go into some of the teaching that different churches will do or different theologies on; [for example], inclusion. You’ll say: “Here’s where they get their argument from…from Scripture—because it looks like, ‘Hey, this is what the Bible says,’—but here’s why it’s wrong…”

That’s really helpful for a parent, especially—for any one of us—but if my child is, not just at a church that is progressive; but he or she is now saying, “I’m gay”; how would you respond, as a parent?

Ann: Because that is happening all the time.

Allen: Oh, yes.

Ann: I can’t tell you how many parents have come up to me, and said, “Ann, I want you to talk to my son” or “…my daughter,”—usually, “…my daughter”—”because she says she’s gay now.”

Dave: I’m sure there are listeners, right now, thinking—

Ann: Yes, right now.

Dave: —”Please help me, because I’m navigating that reality.”

Allen: Yes, that can be very, very challenging; because what we want to say, as parents, is the good old saying: “Love the sinner; hate the sin.” That type of phrasing doesn’t work, because that person identifies with that lifestyle. If you say, “I’m going to love you but not love your sin,” then, basically, that child interprets that as, “Well, you don’t love me, then; because what you think is sin is me; I am this.

Dave: Right.

Allen: “I am this lifestyle.”

We need to communicate to our kids that—no matter who they claim to be/no matter what they are—we will always love them. And if they ever need anything at all, they can always come to us, as parents, no matter what. They can always depend on mom and dad for anything that they need.

With that, we need to communicate to our kids that: “I love you, but my love and my reverence for God supersedes my love for you. That means, as you know, I’m a Christian; and you are going through a stage—where you believe this/don’t know what you believe—I believe that this is wrong. I believe that marriage is for a man and a woman, so I won’t be able to support your relationship.” We need to communicate, with love and clarity, to our kids what we believe, and why we believe it; but then, at the same time, confirm to them that: “This will never change my love for you.”

The last thing I’ll say is we need to help our kids understand that love does not mean acceptance: “I can still love, you but that doesn’t mean I can accept every decision that you make in your life.”

Ann: And they will push back: “No, you don’t love me.”

Allen: That’s right.

Ann: “You don’t love what I’m doing; you don’t love me.”

I like the calm—the composure—“No, I do love you.” I tend to be way more reactive than Dave; he’s way more calm. I think it’s important, even if your son or daughter comes—take a moment to calm down and go be by yourself—and to pray, “Lord, give me wisdom to know how to respond.”

As a parent—to know what the Bible says—if we don’t know, man, they can persuade us. The culture can throw out some Scripture, here and there, and you can think, “Oh, I’ve never thought of it like that.” I love that you are saying, “Here is the truth of God’s Word, but we need to respond in a loving way.”

Allen: Yes, and let me add one other thing. We talk about Scripture, showing our kids Scripture. One of the things I would encourage parents to do is, when we talk about telling our kids that we love them, we take them to 1 Corinthians 13 and explain to them, word for word, what true love is. We say, “Okay, if you don’t think I love you, let’s look at what the Bible says about love.”

“Love is patient”; “My promise to you is that I will always be patient with you.”

“Love is kind”; “I will do my best, even though I don’t agree with your lifestyle, to always be kind.”

“Love is patient; love is kind; love does not boast; love does not envy.” But then point them:

“Love does not rejoice in unrighteousness.” “My Bible says that I cannot rejoice in what I believe is unrighteousness. So if I believe what you are doing is not right, how can I rejoice in that when the Bible says love, for me, is to not do that?”

“But love never fails; love always hopes; love never gives up.” “I will always hope for you; I will never give up on loving you.”

As parents, take them through that so they understand that nowhere, in that text, does it say love is acceptance. It says: “Love is kind; love is patient,” “Love is this; love is that.” Hopefully, they will leave, and say, “Yes, my parents do love me.”

Ann: That’s good.

Dave: Yes, as you were saying—the journey for a parent or a family, where this is happening in their home—that is such a hard journey. I just want to say, “If you are that parent, we are not making light of that. That is a—you are lying in bed at night; you’re struggling—you’ve tried to do the right thing their whole life: you prayed; you’ve taken them to church; you probably had family devotions—I’m just saying, “We are not winking at that, like, ‘Hey! Just get the Bible out.’ It’s like this is a hard journey.”

Allen: It’s heartbreaking.

Dave: At the same time, we also know that many of us, as parents, don’t know our Bible well enough; so when our son or daughter comes home—and they are saying things: “Well, the Bible doesn’t really mean this,”—the parents can think, “Oh!” The next thing you know, they think, “Okay.”

Allen: It’s amazing how—

Dave: That’s why the truth of God matters, and you have to be able to interpret the Word of God accurately; we’re called to that—again, not hammering your child with that—but being able to stand on something that’s true, and true for centuries: “I’m going to love you, but I have to stand here.”

Ann: Well, even what Allen said—you said it—but I was thinking, “That is the hardest thing for a parent.” Because you said, “I love you, but my God comes first—and what I believe about Him—I will follow Him first.”

Allen: Right.

Ann: I think the problem is not all of us feel that.

Allen: That’s right, yes.

Ann: Because our kids—man, I get it—I love our kids so much; I would die for them. It’s easy for our kids to become an idol.

Allen: Very much so, yes.

Ann: We just love them.

Allen: Oh, yes; we do.

Ann: And so, when we change our theology, because we love our kids so much—thinking it’s the most loving thing we can do to accept their lifestyle—that makes me wonder: “Is God first?”

Allen: Yes, because no parent wants to be at odds with their kids.

Dave and Ann: No.

Allen: No parent wants their kids to not want to come over for holidays—Thanksgiving, Christmas—no parent wants to go through, “Oh, I haven’t talked to my mom in five years”; we’ve heard all the horror stories of parents/their kids have basically said, “If you don’t accept me, I’m not—

Ann: —“you’re dead to me.”

Allen: —”you’re dead to me.” No parent—that’s probably a greater nightmare than losing a child—because your child is here, but they don’t want anything to do with you. That’s just heartbreaking. And because we don’t want to experience that, we water down or shy away from these conversations.

There’s got to be a way, as parents, where we communicate our extreme, consistent love—that: “We are committed to you, 100 percent, [to] your well-being,”—”but we aren’t able to support this.”

Dave: Yes; one of the things we’ve talked about, here in the past, is when a parent changes their theology because of the theology of their kid’s changing. Think about that—I don’t know the exact statistic—but if I remember right, seven out of ten parents will bend their theology to sort of match [their kids’];—

Allen: Oh, I believe that.

Dave: —because they love their kids, and they want them to be able to come home at Thanksgiving, that kind of thing.

And yet, what happens if that child then finds the truth? And then, they come back to their parents; and their parents have left where they originally were?

Allen: Yes, what kind of example is—

Dave: They have no grounding.

Allen: What kind of example are we setting for our kids?

Dave: Yes; so as hard as that is: “Oh, my goodness.”

Ann: One guest said, “My parents—their theology/their walk with God was my anchor—and if they lifted the anchor, and they put their anchor in me, where would I go when I was ready to repent and follow Jesus?” I thought that was really good.

Allen: Yes, the tough thing here is that there is no perfect playbook or guidebook. This is not an easy situation at all.

Ann: It’s messy, isn’t it?

Allen: Of course, as parents, when we have gatherings and we have holidays, we don’t want to imagine our kids not being there. It’s not an easy situation at all.

Ann: One of my really good friends—her husband left her and her daughter for a man—she’s been on a journey for the last ten years of forgiving him. For Christmas, she decided to invite her husband and his partner over for Christmas dinner.

Allen: Wow.

Ann: She said, “Ann, I want you to know how incredibly messy this is. My daughter is married, and they have two kids. I have felt like I need to love him unconditionally, and show him the gospel of what that looks like, but without condoning his lifestyle.” That is just tricky and messy all over the place.

Allen: It is; it is.

Ann: We have to be on our face, before God, asking Him wisdom to know how to do that and what that looks like—and to have wise people in our lives—because there haven’t been generations of people, who have walked through this; it’s all pretty new.

Allen: Yes, it is. This type of thing—I graduated from high school in ‘93—there was one kid in high school: we knew; he didn’t come out and confirm or anything; we kind of knew. That’s the day we lived in at that time—it wasn’t celebrated; it wasn’t normalized—it wasn’t: “I’m out”; pride and things like that. It was something you kept in the closet; that’s where the saying came from:, “Keep it in the closet.” Now, it’s so different—it’s celebrated; everybody is out with it—it’s just a different day.

I would also encourage parents, as well, to find other parents, as a support group, who are going through this; get wisdom from them. This isn’t something I’ve had to deal with, obviously—my kids are five and seven—and I pray that I never do. But there are parents that have and are, currently, dealing with it; and I’m sure they can provide wisdom.

Dave: Yes, thanks for what you do.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: You are currently right where our kids are living, on YouTube.

Allen: Yes.

Dave: You decided: “I’m going to go where they are,”—not just for kids, but every one of us—and you said, “I’m going to bring the truth to that vehicle”; right?

Allen: That was one of the things I was excited about. We are living at a time where people don’t go to church anymore; or they go to church, and they aren’t comfortable asking pastors different questions. So when they have a question, they go to Google®; or they go to YouTube. That’s this generation: “Hey, should I live together with my girlfriend?” or “…boyfriend?” They don’t ask their pastor, so I wanted to create a channel or ministry that would address this generation with some of the questions that they have. I have a lot of questions on my channel; because I know people have these questions, and they need to have a biblical worldview to have these questions addressed.

Dave: Yes; way to go.

Ann: Well done; thanks, Allen.

Allen: Thank you; thank you.

Shelby: I love the spirit of going to where people are; and the next generation are in places like YouTube, so why not go there and be part of the solution? I love that Allen is doing that with intentionality and purpose.

I’m Shelby Abbott; and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Allen Parr, on FamilyLife Today. Allen’s written a book called Misled: 7 Lies That Distort the Gospel (and How You Can Discern the Truth). You can get your copy of Allen’s book by going online, right now, to FamilyLifeToday.com; or you can check it out in the show notes. Or feel free to give us a call at 800-358-6329 to request your copy; again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.”

It’s the month of August, and we have a goal to raise $250,000 in new funds by the end of this month. We would love it if you would partner with us to help reach marriages and families all over the country and, consequently, all over the world. You can do that—really, make your mark—by partnering with FamilyLife. If you feel the call to give, and be a part of this ministry, that’s great! If you don’t, that’s fine, too; there’s plenty of other places that you can give and be a part of the solution with those ministries.

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Now, tomorrow, “How do you age with purpose and vitality?” That’s a good question to ask, depending on your stage of life. Dennis and Barbara Rainey are going to be here with the Wilsons to talk about that, and so much more, about following Jesus in your later life. We hope you’ll join us for that. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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