Emotional Tools Your Son Can Build On for Life – David Thomas

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FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson – Web Version Transcript

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Emotional Tools Your Son Can Build On for Life

Guest:David Thomas

From the series:Raising Emotionally Healthy Boys (Day 2 of 2)

Air date:May 27, 2025

David: Somewhere around nine to ten, boys begin to channel all primary emotions—fear, anger, sadness, disappointment—into one emotion, and that one emotion is anger.

Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the

relationships that matter most. I’m Dave Wilson.

Ann: And I’m Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is

FamilyLife Today.

Dave: So we discovered yesterday on the program that, when you married me, you married an adolescent boy. [Laughter] How did you feel about learning that? Of course, here’s the thing. I think you already knew it. I just learned yesterday: “Wow! I was not just immature; I was like an adolescent in my early 20s.”

Ann: Hon, I thought you were amazing in every way.

Dave: You were—

Ann: I never thought you were immature—it was later—like ten years later. I’m just

kidding.

Dave: So I got immature as I grew up instead of mature.

Ann: No, I never thought that. It was an interesting conversation though.

Dave:No, I’m just bringing it up because we have David Thomas back in the studio with us, who’s a therapist and a counselor in Nashville. He enlightened me to some things about men and boys. David, welcome back.

David: Thank you for having me back. I was with a mom recently, to whom I said, “How

many sons do you have?” And she said, “Does my husband count?” She wanted to

know exactly how many males she was raising that counted in that number. I’m right

there with you. We discovered that I, too, was an adolescent when I got married; so we

share that in common. [Laughter]

Dave: We’re laughing about it because you wrote this amazing book. We have three sons and now grandkids, so we thought, “We have to pass this on.” We’ve been handing this out to everybody: Raising Emotionally Strong Boys: Tools Your Son Can Build On for Life. And we’re laughing because you talk about the maturity level of girls compared to boys.

Here’s something I want your wisdom on because you sit, every day, with families and kids—and walk through this whole—and yesterday, if you missed it, go back

and listen; because you even defined what emotionally strong and healthy looks like.

That’s where we realized, “Wow! I wasn’t.” But here’s the thing—and I don’t think I’m

that unique in that I thought I was—and most of us do think we are. It’s always the

person who’s got the problems: they’re the last one to know they have the problems.

And yet, Ann and I get married; and then, I become a dad. I never had a dad; he walked

out when I was seven. I knew I was deficient in some ways, like, “Wow, I didn’t have a

dad. I’m not sure what to do.” But I thought I was pretty secure emotionally, and it’s

probably because I succeeded in different things in life, and thought, “Oh, I’m a

college quarterback,” and blah, blah, blah. I was very deficient in the emotional area of

my life!

Ann: Now, I’m thinking back on our conversations when we first got married; and we were young. I was 19; Dave was 22. But I can remember asking you, “What are you feeling about all this?” And Dave would often say, “I have no idea. I have no idea.”

Dave: She would say, “Yes, you do. You just don’t want to tell me”; we’d get in fights. I honestly didn’t know; I had never even answered that question. You talked about that yesterday. So let’s talk about emotionally unhealthy—could be men or women.

David: Yes.

Dave: But we’re adults now; and we have responsibilities to, maybe, be a parent. How were we going to raise an emotionally strong son if we’re not emotionally strong ourselves?

David: I have a friend in Nashville, who started a treatment center for professional men.

The entire population would be adult men—who are doctors, attorneys, CEOs, pastors,

men in leadership—men who have likely been highly successful, vocationally, and have

found themselves in the throes of addiction of some kind. On the first day in arriving,

they do group together. He will put a feelings chart in the center of the space and ask

every man that question: “What are you feeling about being here?” He said, “David, you

have no idea how many adult men—these are Harvard-educated, Yale-educated, Duke-

educated men; again, who’ve been highly successful, vocationally—who cannot answer

the question. The answers are even on the floor, but they just don’t know.

That connection between the head and the heart is not something I believe men were trained to understand, particularly men of certain generations. My grandfather is a perfect example. My grandfather was wildly successful in the work he did as a builder. My grandfather fought in the war—I am a recipient of the freedom my grandfather fought to bring to me, as an adult, in this moment in time—he came home from the war, having seen friends who died in front of him—not just friends who were lost in front of him—he saw atrocities that most soldiers have seen that are beyond anything I will ever likely see in my lifetime. He came home and was to go right back to work at that point. There weren’t resources in place—there wasn’t support in place—there wasn’t an invitation to say: “You have witnessed trauma, and there needs to be a space where you can talk about that and figure out what it looks like to live forward in light of that and not carry it.”

I think it is why there are so many men of that generation, in particular, who lived in pain; and as a result, caused pain. I think it’s part of the wisdom of that age-old saying, “Hurt people hurt people.” I’ve talked about, in this book, that males who were in pain often cause pain. I talk about how internal pain has an external presentation of some kind, which is why I think adult men lead the stats for substance abuse. To the degree that we don’t learn the name and navigate, it will show up in some way. I think about the wisdom of that passage that says, “Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.” It will come out in some way.

Ann: When you say, “name,” name what? What are you referring to?

David: I think—name the feeling; name the experience—for those men sitting in that

circle at group to be able to name:

“I feel terrified that I’m in a treatment center right now,”

“…that I may have just wrecked my marriage,”

“…that I may have just lost my job,”

—whatever it may be. They could not articulate how they were feeling about where they

were and what had happened that brought them there. I think that’s the naming part. My

grandfather wasn’t invited to name the experience of losing friends and seeing them die

in brutal ways. As I think about that, and the importance of it—and all the ways when we

can’t name—that it presents.

One of the things that you said—that I wanted to go back to, that I talk about in the

book, that’s lesser known—is that I think overachieving is a way of numbing. I don’t

think we talk enough about that. We talk about the obvious of substance abuse, and the

obvious of addiction, and the obvious of infidelity; but we don’t talk about overachieving.

I think that’s not just true for us, as men, but also for women. I think about the different

ways it presents. I was talking with a mom, just this past week, about how, with anxiety

with girls, often the more out of control they feel internally, they will work to try to control

something externally: people, outcomes, situations, experiences. As I was talking

that through, this mom said to me, “David, I’m thinking back to being in college myself.

The majority of girls in my sorority had an eating disorder.” I think about it now—what

we didn’t know then; what we know now—my guess would be a lot of them had anxiety

that they were trying to manage through food. Internal pain always has an external

presentation. To the degree that we can’t name and navigate that, it’s going to come

out sideways in some ways: it could be overachieving; it could be an eating disorder; it

could be addiction.

Dave: Yeah, mine was definitely the overachieving; and I couldn’t see it. That’s my

question: “How do you help a guy?” Again, we could talk about women too; but I’m

thinking of a guy—husband, a dad—who doesn’t see it. And then, when his wife, I love

hear what Ann thinks because she could see it in me and would point it out. And often,

the guy will say: “I’m good; I don’t need to go to a counselor,” “We don’t need

counseling,” “I don’t need counseling; I’m good. Just because I can’t name a feeling

right now doesn’t mean I am not in touch with my emotions”; when, actually, it does; but

he can’t see it. She’s stuck, trying to encourage him: “Let’s go to a marriage conference

together this weekend,” “No, we’re good. I don’t need it.” She’s dying over there—and

maybe, his kids are—he doesn’t see that; he’s not emotionally strong. How do you help

a guy like that get help?

Ann: And Dave, I would add, it’s not just that you can’t name a feeling; because most

wives are like, “If that was the only problem, I wouldn’t be that upset.” When it comes

out in other ways, in a pornography addiction, in anger—

Dave: —anger.

David: Yes.

Ann: Anger’s a big one; that’s when, as a wife—and especially, with boys—we don’t know how to navigate that.

David: Yes, and I think it does show up that way for a lot of adult men. I will hear wives speak to that being the primary evidence of when he’s just in the normal day-to-day parenting, the discipline has too much intensity. His words are fueled with so much anger and internal pain, external presentation of some kind. I think it really starts with the foundational acknowledgement that we are made as emotional beings, every one of us.

In the beginning of the book I have a chapter on foundation and identity, and anchoring boys to an accurate definition of what it means to be a man in this world, which we should never be defining outside of the person of Christ, just who He was. If we think about His human experience, we’re told throughout Scripture there’s all kinds of evidence of where He felt the different emotions that we feel throughout His life here on earth. And that Jesus, though He was a man, who was mocked, abused, abandoned, crucified—the worst of human experiences—that He didn’t go off the rails. He was able to deal with the circumstances of His life on earth with humility, with civility, with strength, with emotional strength, all these things that I talk so much about. I think it starts there—just acknowledging we’re made as emotional beings—so therefore, our job is to learn the name and navigate that.

Ann: Would you say that, then, to your little boys? Would you teach them that?

David: I would.

Ann: And you probably do that in your practice.

David: Absolutely. I think it needs to start there with boys; and then, this may feel a little surprising for parents listening to hear—but please stay with me—with adolescent boys, I want to go ahead and share those scary statistics we talked about on the front side of our conversation/the first episode. In fact, I have some stats on page 73 of this book, that I encourage parents to read to adolescent boys. I think boys need to go into adolescence, understanding, “Hey, here’s the vulnerabilities for males in this world.”

Ann: Will you read those to us?

David: I would be glad to; absolutely. We’re going to go back to some of these realities

that we briefly previewed in Episode One that I think are my starting point. I have a

whole section on anxiety and depression; and within that, I talk about how the American

Journal of Men’s Health says that depression and suicide are ranked as a leading cause

of death among men. Six million men are impacted by depression in the United States

every single year.

This next stat was one of the hardest statistics that I put in the book; but listen to this:

“Globally, on average”—so around the globe—”one man dies by suicide every minute of

every day.” Here’s some more stats:

Men are often reluctant to openly discuss their health or how they feel about

the impact of significant life events.

Men are more reluctant to take action when they don’t feel physically or mentally well.

Men engage in more risky activities that are harmful to their health. These behaviors are strongly linked to traditional masculinity.

Men often feel pressure to appear strong and stoic. They resist support and help, and they experience greater amounts of hopelessness and despair.

Anxiety and depression are more common in girls—adolescent females and adult

women—yet, women are more likely to acknowledge a struggle and seek support. I

think those are just important facts that we want to arm boys with, particularly in

adolescence, to understand: “Okay, these are the realities,” no different than—we have

this great data on hand that we’ve now known for quite some time—that it’s important to

talk with adolescents about a history of substance abuse if that exists in your family; to

let those kids know, “You are more vulnerable to addiction. So where a person, over

here, might drink a beer, and that’s all they want; based on our family history, the

likelihood of you doing that is not very great.” We don’t help kids by keeping that

information away from them, but by arming them. I think this is kind of a similar

philosophy of: “Let’s just talk about these hard realities.” That’s not a scare tactic; it’s

just this reality of: “We need to be informed and know these are some vulnerabilities

that exist; we’re going to have to work harder.”

Again, it goes all the way back to the front-side of development: we have fewer words. If

I were to lastly just build on that, I would say this: you spoke to it well, a few minutes

ago, when you talked about the anger piece. Somewhere around nine to ten, boys

begin to channel all primary emotions—fear, anger, sadness, disappointment—into one

emotion, and that one emotion is anger. If I have fewer words, on the front-side of

development—and then, at some point a little farther down the road in development, I’m

going to start channeling everything toward anger—and then, a little farther down the

road, my tendency to shove things down, and not ask for help, is greater than it is for

the females around me, we have more work to do in this emotional space with the boys

we love, which is part of why I’m so thankful you all would let me come talk about it.

Ann: I think, as a listener—I’m thinking, as a mom—“That all feels overwhelming and scary to even read those stats.” I’m imagining you and your wife reading those stats to your twin sons.

David: Yes.

Ann: What did you say after that? Parents are like, “Okay, I can read those; now what?”—“You’re susceptible to these things,”—where’s the hope?

David: First, I would say to any mom listening—who’s immediately going to a place of: “I feel overwhelmed,”—I end every chapter of this book—I committed to my editor: “I’m ending every chapter with five practical ways you can put these ideas into practice; we’re not waiting to the end of the book.” Every chapter is going to end with five easy things that parents could be doing in the moment, on the ground, putting these principles into practice. I don’t want them to feel overwhelmed.

The bigger hope for me is—I have a great story in this book that I absolutely love about a single mom, who had struggled with anxiety over the course of her life—she said to her son, who was starting to show signs of that; she said, “You know, buddy, I want to tell you that, if you were to struggle with worry and anxiety like I have over the course of my life, I’m so thankful that we live in a time where we know what to do with that. I know a lot of great skills and strategies to teach you so that you can”—this was her line, which I love; and I’m borrowing it from this wise single mom—”so that you can carry it with God throughout your life.”

I love that language, because it communicated: “If this goes on”—and anxiety is not something that just magically goes away at your 18th or your 21st birthday—”but if you struggle with this in different seasons, ongoing, there are good skills and strategies that we know that you can implement in the, day to day; and you will always be able to carry this with God. You’re not alone—you need God every day, all day—and we need community.”

Some of the healthiest parents I have worked with in my 25 years of doing this work are parents in recovery. I think they’re some of the healthiest—because they live under the principles of the 12 Steps—which means: “I start every day by acknowledging I struggle, and I need God; and I need community.” Wouldn’t we all be better if we lived from that starting point every day?

Ann: Yes.

David: Those things are true for every one of us, whether addiction is part of our story or not. We all need God; we all need community. We all need to wake up and start from a place of acknowledging, “I have a need.”

Ann: Dave, you were talking about how you feel like you weren’t very good at this; but as a mom, I’ve realized I parented often in fear. I called one of our sons, who was away at school, and I had asked him an opinion on something. He said, “Mom, I’m processing some stuff, and I just can’t talk right now.” As a mom, I’m like, “What do you mean, ‘processing stuff’? What kind of things are your processing?” He said, “It just feels like you are always trying to fix me. You’re always afraid that I was going to fail or do something,”—not fail [academically] because he’s very driven—but fail in terms: morally, or drinking, or partying. He said, “I just need to process some of the pain that I went through, growing up, of trying to be perfect for you.”

I started crying—because I realized, even that moment, I started defending myself—“Well, hon, it’s because I love you so much. It’s because I see how amazing you are,”—and blah, blah, blah. He said, “But mom, sometimes I just need to tell you that I’m struggling; and you don’t have to fix it. You don’t have to fix me, Mom.” As a mom, we love our kids so much, and dads do too. We hate for them to be in pain; so instead of letting him be in his pain, I’m trying to throw the life jacket on him, and say, “You’re fine!” for my own sake. I wish that I would have allowed him to be in his pain, to admit and talk about my own pain; and then, not have to fix him. Is that normal for us to hate our kids to be in that pain?

David: Absolutely, it is. I want to first say to you: what a gift that you could come to him, in that kind of humility, and listen and let him say all of what he needed to say.

Ann: I wasn’t very nice at first. [Laughter]

David: Of course! And it does bring about that instinct of: “I want you to know what all was going on behind the scenes.” What was primarily going on is exactly what you’re asking. There’s not a parent alive who enjoys seeing their kids struggle in any way; it pulls on the deepest parts of who we are, and we want to take away the pain. So I think everything about that makes sense to me.

I think even back to that story of that wise mom: “Watching my kids, in their own different ways, learn to carry struggle with God has been one of the greatest challenges of my parenting—to step back and allow some of that to happen—to know that it is preparing them for their adult lives: to walk with God, to need God.” When we had lunch today, you shared this beautiful story with me about one of your sons and the way you allowed something to happen in his life that you now can see the fruit of, how it deepened his faith, and how it connected some dots for him.

I think for any parent listening, I would want to remind you of that, as I’m reminding myself of that right now: that everything in me wants to fix, and do, and change, and renovate—and add a whole list of words to that—and the ultimate goal is that I would equip my kids so that they can walk with God—and carry their struggle, and their children’s struggle, and their grandchildren’s struggle with God—when I’m no longer here at some point. It is all about the equipping. Our friend, Dan Allender, talks about this relationship being transformative: “It is the hardest thing I have ever done, and the best thing I have ever done, too.”

Ann: Yes.

Dave: We sort of thought—I think a lot of us, parents, think, when they are raised and we send them off—“We’re done,” and we’re not! It’s a different phase of parenting. We wrote a parenting book—we talk about four seasons—the last season is this adult-to-adult. One of the things that I have found fascinating about this season, which is also very hard, is they come to you now, as adult men—or adult women, if you had daughters—and they speak out things that you did that hurt them, or let them down, or failed them. That’s hard to hear, but it’s necessary for them to do that. I did the same with my parents; now, they’re doing it with us.

We can do what Ann was saying, and say, “Yes, but I…”; instead, we should just listen and realize that—in your words, David—what’s happening is they’re naming and navigating, as an adult man or woman, now. That’s exactly what our job is, as parents, is to equip them in such a way that they can do that, rather than cut them off; because we’re trying to save our self-esteem, and say, “We did a good job,” rather than saying, “Yes, I’m sorry for that; and in some ways, I’m watching you mature because of that.” Is that true?

David: Absolutely. I think it’s even part of that desire that I think exists for every one of us, as parents, that our kids would outperform us—not just vocationally—but I want my kids to do a better job of parenting than I did.

Ann: Me too.

David: I want them to live out so many different parts of their lives differently. If we’re really doing our job, that’s always the great hope that we would get to see some evidence and fruit of that. I have already seen some evidence of that. My sons outperform me at 20, in some places. It’s mind-blowing to me, and it excites me.

Dave: Yes.

David: It excites me to think they’re figuring some things out earlier than I did, and I’m grateful for that; I want that.

Dave: Yes; we got on the plane, flying back from spending a weekend with one of our sons and their kids. Ann said to me, “He is such a good husband and dad.” I know what she was really saying: “He is a better man at that age than you were.”

Ann: No, I’m not saying that.

Dave: No, it wasn’t a cutdown at all; but that’s what I saw. It was like, “He is better, times a hundred, that I was at the same age.” And that is not like I’m jealous; it’s like, “Thank you, Jesus.” That’s what we’re called to do; that is a beautiful thing to see.

Ann: I remember, as he dropped us off at the airport, we both laid our hands on him and prayed for him, and just thanked God for the things that we had seen in him. It hasn’t been easy, and he struggled; but to see him surrendering his life and his family to Jesus, that’s what we all long for, as parents.

You’re right, Dave; I don’t think it’s ever too late to apologize. I remember saying to another son this past week, “I’m really sorry that you were feeling so lonely in high school. That must have been really hard for you.” I said, “I don’t know what I would have done, but I wish I would have done a better job at that. That must have felt so lonely.” For him just to say, “It was; it was really hard”; and for me just to let it sit there.

David: Yes; it’s so hard, isn’t it?

Ann: Yes!

David: But I think what’s happening in those moments—which is even in keeping with the conversation we’re sharing about our kids doing better than we did—I think about those wise words of: “Whatever we don’t transform, we will inevitably transmit.” I think there is incredible truth to that. It’s like if I’m working to transform some things—if I’m working to try and do better than my grandfather could do—because I have more to work with; we know more at this point along the way—and then, my hope is my boys can do better than I am, too. Then, I’m not just transmitting things; I’m working to try to name and navigate things differently than my grandfather knew to do; and my father was able to do better than him. I, hopefully, have raised sons who will know how to do it even better than I could.

I love the legacy of that—even as you’re talking—it does take a lot of—I think to your great story—sitting, and listening, and figuring out how not to speak at times.

Ann: I’m so bad at that. [Laughter]

David: I know; aren’t we all?! I think we’re being trained against that in this world more than ever. I think it’s one of the worst parts of technology and social media, in particular, is that we’re just invited to comment in real time all the time, like everything needs my opinion or my input in some way. I talk about how we’re being trained against regulation. I worry about that for kids of this generation, who are growing up with that, believing that: “I, somehow, need to give input to that at all times.” When the reality—all of us know—wisdom means: “Sometimes, I don’t need to say a word. I just need to sit in that and listen, and there’s nothing needed to contribute to it except silence and humility.”

Dave: David, when you just said, “What isn’t transformed is transmitted,” I just want to say to the dad, and Ann could speak to the mom if you want.

Ann: Yes, I was going to say: “…and to the mom.”

Dave: It’s either one. If you’re walking in some struggle—and we all are—I often thought, “I’ve got to get a grip on this for me.” I never thought, “I have to win this battle for my legacy.” Here’s what I know now: this isn’t just about you. If you don’t let God transform your pain or your struggle, it will be passed on—it’s Exodus 20—“The sins of the father will visit the third and fourth generation.” At the same time, the righteous man will see his legacy blessed for a thousand generations.

So I just want to remind you—if you’re listening: “I’m going to deal with that tomorrow,”—don’t wait. You have to get help; you have to tell somebody. Get a counselor; get a buddy; get another woman—get it out of the dark into the light—get God working in this area, because this isn’t just about you. This is about your son dealing with the same thing, or your daughter. I just want to encourage you, as one man who’s been there, and still walking that road: “Don’t wait. Start the healthy healing process right now.”

Dave: We’re Dave and Ann Wilson, and we’ve been talking with David Thomas about

Raising Emotionally Strong Boys—that’s the name of his book. I tell you: what he was

just saying is so hard—

Ann: It’s so hard!

Dave: —to sit in silence when you just want to tell them what they should be doing and

thinking.

Ann: I just want to react to everything. And so it was really good just to have that

conversation with him. I love David Thomas. I love Sissy Goff, who’s with him in their

practice; but man, they just have great stuff out for families and kids.

Dave: Yeah, we encourage you to get his book, Raising Emotionally Strong Boys,

available wherever books are sold.

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