Image Restored: Rachael Gilbert

Episode Transcript

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Image Restored

Guest:Rachael Gilbert

From the series:Image Restored (Day 1 of 2)

Air date:November 11, 2024

Shelby: Hey, Shelby Abbott here. Are you tired of the tension and the division that exists in things like your family gatherings; and your friend groups; and certainly, on social media? I know I am. Well, Psalm 1:33 tells us that it’s good for believers to live in unity with one another; but in today’s kind of easily-angered and often-offended world, that just feels impossible; doesn’t it? It feels like wishful thinking. Well, that’s why I’m excited to invite you to join us, here at FamilyLife, for a five-week video series from our friend—author and comedian—Amberly Neese. It’s called “Moving Toward Each Other in the Middle of a Divisive World.” In it, Amberly just guides us through how to build peace in our natural circles of influence when differing thoughts, and opinions, and beliefs threaten to create division. You could sign up, right now, by clicking on the link in the show notes or heading over to FamilyLife.com/FindingCommonGround.

Alright, let’s get into the program.

Rachael: The word God gave me is that I feel like the enemy would love us to be so obsessed with looking down at ourselves that we forget to look up at Jesus. I forget to go, “Hey, Jesus, let Your love and Your light shine on me so that, when I walk into a room, that’s what people notice about me.”

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!

Ann: I’ve never started a segment in a program like this, but I’m just going to address—

Dave:You’re getting me scared right now; I don’t know where you’re going.

Ann: I’m going to address the listener, right off the bat. Especially, women, I think, maybe, can relate to this a little bit more. I’m wondering: “If you’ve ever woken up in the morning, and you got dressed, and if your clothes were too tight, did that affect your mood for the day?” Have you ever done that, Dave?!

Dave:Yeah, I have; I can’t believe I’m saying this—but I think, especially now, compared to 20 years ago, I didn’t think I’d ever care—and now, I’m like, “Oh, no.”

Ann: Oh, I mean, my whole day can be affected, like: “Oh, my pants are so tight,” or “Oh, this looks terrible on me; because it doesn’t fit anymore.” That can affect everything in my day.

Dave:So why are we bringing this up?

Ann: I think this is a good topic. If you’re a listener, and you can relate to that, you’re going to want to listen in today. And if you’re a guy, and you’ve struggled with that as well, I think this topic will be definitely relatable.

Dave:And if you’re a parent, I mean your kids—guaranteed—teenage boys and girls.

Ann: And it’s great that we have Rachael Gilbert with us today. Rachael, I am excited that you’re with us.

Rachael: Thank you for having me. And I appreciate both of you for recognizing that this is a needed topic to talk about.

Ann: Well, your book is called Image Restored; listen to this subtitle: Tear Down Shame and Insecurity to Experience a Body Image Renovation. Don’t we—yes! This is what we all want!—especially, women. And so Rachael—

Dave:Hey, I’ve got to just say this isn’t just a woman thing.

Rachael: I agree!

Ann: Yeah; I think so, too.

Dave:I’m not kidding. Fifteen—maybe, twenty-five years ago—I would’ve been over here, saying, “I don’t have anything to say, because this is a woman thing.” I don’t think it’s ever been just women—but especially, now—I mean, I go through the grocery store; I see the magazine covers of these guys with ripped abs. They weren’t there 20 years ago.

Ann: That’s probably true.

Dave: I coached middle school basketball. I remember saying to the boys: “You guys go shirts; you guys go skins”—for opposing teams. And they stopped me, and they look at me: “We’re not taking our shirts off, Coach.” I’m like, “What?!”—this is ten years ago. There is such a focus, even for boys; this is a big deal.

Ann: So Rachael, tell us a little bit about what you do, because this topic is something that resonates with all of us. I’m guessing it’s come out of your own experience.

Rachael: Oh, for sure. And Dave, I’m glad you said that; because I like to tell people: “Body image is no respecter of gender or age.” And the book—it’s flowery; it’s girly; it’s written for women—but you guys know, as authors, you have to choose who your target population is. I could have, just as easily, invited men into this conversation. And that’s been my prayer that men are coming in, which is why I love to talk about this topic with marriages, because it affects both parties.

You asked, Ann—your original question was—“Tell us: ‘Why this?’” And yes, multi-faceted for me; because it’s very much my personal journey, which we can dive into. But then, also professionally, I am a licensed counselor. When I was in graduate school, I decided to research body image; because we like to research things that we’re struggling with, too. “Oh, let’s see. Is there hope?”—really kind of was my question, even as a graduate student—“Can we help people with this?” Because I noticed, even with licensed professionals, they didn’t really love to dive into this topic. Not many counselors love to counsel this—they’ll often refer out—and know just they don’t feel called or necessarily even equipped, sometimes, to do that.

When I was working in an eating-disorder center—I noticed, by the way, we had equal population of males and females in that—that was surprising to me. I was like, “Okay, this is a male and a female thing here”; and I just started to notice. This particular treatment center was not a faith-based facility. I would talk to the other therapists; I was just trying to learn all I could. They did not have many resources—not only did they not have—the workbook they were using was from the 1980s. When I looked online, there were no Christian resources either, especially that actually took that.

I just felt very called to go, and say, “Let’s do this. Let’s bring in faith and clinical,”—the therapy side of things—”and let’s see what the Lord wants to do here.” I feel like He gave me a blueprint for that. That’s been my passion and something I love that I get to do.

Ann: And you have a podcast.

Rachael: I do; yes.

Ann: What’s that called?

Rachael: It’s called Real Talk with Rachael.

Ann: That’s awesome.

Rachael: We do what we’re doing right here. That’s my heart is to, from a biblical perspective, talk about topics that just are not talked about enough. And just to shed some light on there from those personal stories like we’re doing here today, but also that biblical and sometimes even clinical insight.

Ann: One of the things I’ve appreciated about your book is it’s not just a regular book—it’s a workbook, and we can do work in it—why did you do that?

Rachael: Because, whenever I felt like God was calling me to write on this topic, I said, “Okay, Lord,”—and this is how [the Lord and I] talk to each other; we’re very conversational—I’m like, “That’s great.” But again, personally thinking of my own journey and then thinking of the different women I had counseled, I felt like there’s not always a one-size-fits-all approach to this; it’s a very individual thing. Now, there’s some basic principles that can apply to everybody; but the way in which people process doesn’t always look the same, and people learn differently; they also process differently.

It was important to me that, if somebody was going to read a concept, that they actually also had space to stop and process it; and so that’s why we included journaling. We included coloring pages; we included videos; all kinds of things—that I encourage people/I’m like, “Hey, even if you were to”—not that I want you to do this—”even if you don’t read all the words that I wrote, stopping and taking time to process whatever God is bringing up. He brings things up because they’re on the way out; He wants us to deal with them and heal from those things.” And so that’s why I wrote the book in that format. We call it an interactive format: that they actually get a chance to stop and kind of process what’s coming up for them.

Ann: I love that it has QR codes in it—that you actually can take a picture, with your phone, and watch your video—and you’re talking about it as well.

Honestly, Rachael, the thing that I keep thinking of is: when I am traveling and speaking to moms, who are struggling with their daughters, who may have some issues—and they could have come from their moms or their grandmothers—you talk about that a little bit in the book. I’m thinking, “This is such a great resource.” Take us back into your story: “Where did this all begin?”

Rachael: It’s one of those things where you go, “Oh, hindsight”; and we can go see all the things that were happening along the way. And you mentioned that these things could have come from moms; or they could have come from a core belief; or maybe, that came from trauma. I think that our body image struggles, sometimes, can come from the same places; and sometimes, just little things deposited along the way.

In my circumstance, it was very much little—we call them small “t”—traumas along the way. When I look back, I now see them. When I was growing up, I was always just a little overweight; I really didn’t ever feel athletic. I even just think back to one of my first small “t” traumas that I can think of, as I was in, I believe, third grade in gym class. They had those—when you’d sit on the little dots; you’d all have your own little dot—I don’t know if anybody remembers that.

Ann: I do.

Rachael: And for whatever reason, they were weighing us that day; and they would call us up to the front. There was a giant metal scale at the front of the gym.

Dave:They weighed you in third grade!

Rachael: I know; exactly; thank you. They weighed us.

Ann: I remember being weighed. The whole class was together.

Dave: Do they still do it?

Rachael: I don’t know; I’m not a gym teacher. I would love to believe, and hope, and pray that they’re not. And if they do, let’s hope they do it in a different way.

Dave:Right; right.

Rachael: Because they would call us up—and they had a scale at the front—we would get on. And one gym teacher would yell your weight across the room to the other.

Dave:That sounds like big “T” trauma.

Rachael: Yeah, exactly.

Ann: We did that, too.

Dave:That’s like abuse; wow! Wow!

Rachael: Yeah; yeah. I just remember, even being in third grade, recognizing, “Woo, that number is way higher than, not only the other little girls, but also the boys even.” I remember hearing little snickers from my other classmates as I went and sat back down. I just remember shame, and I didn’t even know what was happening in that moment. “Did I go home and tell parents?”—no, I didn’t go home [and tell], “They weighed me, and that really hurt my feelings.” I didn’t know how to give words to emotions; I just stuffed. And that was the beginning of just stuffing, stuffing, stuffing all these memories and moments.

And then, when I was in high school, I had an abnormal hip thing that happened. My growth plates were actually growing apart rather than together, which is just not a normal thing. And the doctors, at the time, really weren’t sure what to do; so they told me, “You need to stop playing basketball,”—which I “played” basketball. I was a bench—

Ann: That was quotation—

Dave: —air quotes.

Rachael: —air quotes: I “played” it. I was no good; I was a bench warmer. I was that kid who, if we were way ahead, Coach would put me in and be like, “Alright, Goldner,”—that was my maiden name—he’s like, “You got one minute; don’t mess things up in this one minute.” That was me; but I loved being with my friends; and I loved being active, and things like that. So away with my basketball career when the doctors told me, “Yeah, you just got to stop playing sports. Let’s see if this thing will heal itself.” But then, they said a statement; they said, “But it’d also be good for you to lose some weight.”

Now, did they tell me how to lose weight?—no; they just sent me on my merry little way. So I did—I stopped drinking sodas; I gave up candy bars, which side note—that’s a good thing for anybody’s health; I’m not going to argue that.

Ann: How old were you at this time?

Rachael: At this time, I was 15 years old. And for the first, and only time in my life, I dropped probably about 30 pounds in a month, just from giving up soda and candy bars; that was it.

At that same point, we’d gone on a little trip/a family trip to Florida. I got a tan; I got some blonde highlights. I came back from this vacation, and I still remember walking through the halls of our high school, and I thought, “Oh, this is what it feels like to have attention, to be noticed, to feel loved.” I got my first boyfriend. All these doors appeared to have opened to me; because now, I “looked the part” that a high school girl should—it is my air quotes, again—“look like.”

And in that season—again, I didn’t recognize it then; I do now—entered in just this stronghold of: “I finally have this thing that I have wanted all these years: to be liked, to be loved, to be noticed.” And then, to keep that weight off, in came eating disorders, and over exercising, and all kinds of unhealthy things that I brought into marriage. I didn’t even fully understand I was bringing them in. My husband definitely didn’t know I was bringing them in.

And marriage has that beautiful way—it really is beautiful; it doesn’t always feel beautiful—but we kind of rub up against each other. And our stuff that we brought in—our insecurities, the things that we’ve stuffed for so many years—just for me, that was my body image really came to surface. And my husband was the first one who kind of was going: “I don’t think that’s normal,” “I don’t think that’s healthy”; and it was affecting our sex life and all kinds of stuff. So that’s a big overview of where it kind came and started; and then, how it just started to surface in marriage and, especially, during pregnancy, too.

Ann: I think every woman, especially—and Dave, as you’re saying, maybe guys have those stories, too—but I like, in your book, you have a little workbook page that’s “Your Body Timeline” for you to put some of those little “t” or maybe big “T” traumas. If I sat at this table, Rachael—if we sat with a bunch of women—don’t you think we would all have stories of that?

Rachael: Oh, yeah.

Ann: I can remember being in the fifth grade. I was in the peak of gymnastics at that age. I was constantly/I was in the gym five days a week for three hours a night. I was in really good shape, but my weight was higher than any other girl in the class. And it was the first time that people said, “Whoa, she’s so heavy!” I had never had that thought in my life until that moment. They’re saying that with kind of disgust. I wasn’t overweight at all.

But still just that: “What is that confusion, as a daughter?”—we could go on and on of stories. But I’m wondering, as you write this, where does that come from? You talk a little bit, and you mentioned it again: “It can come from our moms, our grandmothers of what we say—

Dave: Yeah, I found that shocking.

Ann: I’m not shocked by it.

Dave:No; I mean, when I read that—and tell our listeners what I mean—you said what?—95 percent of the girls said it came from their mom.

Ann: Oh, yeah; your survey.

Rachael: My survey, yeah.

Ann: Talk about your survey.

Rachael: Yeah; so as I mentioned earlier, I did studies on this in grad school. I conducted my own survey; because even in all the research that I found out there, there wasn’t a ton of research on it. I feel like we’re growing in that area, but there just wasn’t back when I did this. One of the questions on the survey was: “Where do you feel like this came for you?” Yeah, it was 99.9 percent of the women—and they could also include written statements with it—it was just statement upon statement about: “I remember hearing my mom and aunts talk about this,” “I remember my mom put me on a diet when I was eight years old,” and all of those types of things. And to your point: dad’s also.

It’s really, I feel like, “Yes, sometimes, it’s familial that they were actually related. But it’s also, just who’s influencing you—maybe, it was a coach; maybe, it was all these people, who are just leaders in your life who you look up to, who maybe they said something directly to us that’s happened—or we just overheard conversations. I once had a woman tell me that she and her mom—they looked very similar—and she remembers watching her mom getting ready, thinking, “Wow, she’s so beautiful!” And she was just a little girl admiring how pretty her mom was. Her mom slammed her brush down on the bathroom vanity, and said, “Oh, I’m so ugly!” And the girl remembered shattering; because she thought, “I look like my mom,”—she, as a little girl.

And so we all have those moments—where either something was said or we are just watching what’s going on—we’re watching how our parent, or our sister, or our friend, or somebody was maybe always dieting, or all the things that just shaped then the things—we call these core beliefs—how, not only we view ourselves, but also, how we view the world and where we fit in it.

Ann: This is just so relatable. Dave, do you have anything like that?

Dave:No. That’s why I’m like—I know guys do; it’s not just a woman thing—but our culture is so about women’s beauty. I can understand how every girl, like you said in your book, it starts around nine years old; right? That’s what you found from the survey.

Rachael: Sometimes younger, too; but yeah, that’s the average.

Dave:That’s just so terrible to think, from that age on, you’re looking in a mirror every day with a condemnation viewpoint rather than a celebration viewpoint.

Ann: Well, when I look back at my mom and my grandmother, there was nothing about weight/eating. They ate a lot; I never even thought about body image. But I was exposed to pornography at about four to five years old. I noticed the relatives were wanting/the males were wanting to look at that, which was intriguing: “Why do they want to look at those girls when you’re super young?” But I also had sexual abuse in my background, as well as my sister. And then, my sister had an eating disorder—she was bulimic, and so she’s constantly purging—she’s constantly thinking about food; and then, she would binge.

I was seven years younger, so I started to think, “Oh, this body weight thing is a big deal. The way we look is a big deal.” I do remember—Dave, you’ve heard me share this before—I wasn’t allowed to play with Barbie dolls. I had to have Skipper, which was Barbie’s little sister, who was very square, kind of flat-chested. And I always wanted Barbie, though; and I remember always saying to myself, “I can’t wait until I become Barbie!”

And I kept waiting and waiting—I have that gymnast body, where my waist didn’t get much smaller—I didn’t really fill out the way I should. And I do remember, as a nine-year-old—my dad was a coach; he was a baseball coach—and the whole baseball team was in our living room. I’ve shared this before on air, and I had to walk through the middle of these high school boys when I was nine years old. I felt so self-conscious, like, “Oh, don’t look at me.” I have to walk right through the middle. And my dad said, “Oh, this is my daughter, Ann. She’ll really be something when she fills out her sweater.”

Rachael: Wow.

Ann: And I remember—

Dave: —big “T” trauma.

Ann: —walking through that room, traumatized, thinking, too, “Oh, see;”—it’s that Barbie image—”I’ll be a real woman when I can fill a sweater out.”

And so we all have some of those traumas, little or big, passed down by family members, coaches. So what do we do? How do we deal with those? Because that’s what your book’s all about.

Rachael: Yeah, the first thing that just comes to mind is: “You have to be able to feel it to heal it.” And I think those of us—who have any kind of struggle in this area, not only body image, but you mentioned eating disorders earlier—you become an expert in numbing. Really, if you think about the ability to even have an eating disorder, you have to be able to numb what your body’s really saying to you: “I need to silence my hunger cues.” It’s the only way you can actually continue on in that lifestyle is to be able to numb. And the biggest thing we numb are emotions and not thinking or telling our stories. For some people, it doesn’t feel safe to talk about it with other people.

And that’s understandable—because I don’t know about you, Ann—but I’ve had moments in my life, where I thought, “Maybe I will talk about this,” maybe because I feel like most of us have this conversation in our head, all day long; that’s usually something we internalize. Now, sometimes, we might make a comment to a husband or [someone]; but a lot of times, we’re just internalizing most of this. Nobody else is even aware at all about what’s happening in our head. So we feel very alone; we feel like, “I’m the only one who struggles with this.” It really starts with just recognizing—I know that sounds so simple and so basic—but even the listeners—I guarantee our conversation—they’re thinking through: “Oh, yeah; there’s this, and there’s that.” So the first thing is recognizing.

And then, we do need to start to process it at some point. For some people, it might only feel safe to process it in my book. I tell people: “Pretend like it’s your personal body image diary. Lock that thing away if you need to; and you can get it out, and write in it when you feel led to.”

But then, for others, there is a point where we need to invite somebody else in to this conversation. If you don’t have a safe person in your marriage, in a friend, then we need to find a counselor. We need to find somebody to help you start to kind of process through: “What”—we call them—”negative core beliefs are you carrying around about your body that are just simply not from the Lord, that are not truth, that have been really just robbing us?” Because I like to look at: “What all is this robbing me of?”—not just the ability: I mean, that’s exciting to me to think about, “Yay, being able to feel comfortable in our skin”; I love that.

But you know what I love even more? I love being able to walk confidently in who God called me to be: to be able to show up into a room and not be so obsessed—the word God gave me is—that I feel like the enemy would love us to be so obsessed with looking down at ourselves that we forget to look up at Jesus. I forget to go, “Hey, Jesus, let Your love and Your light shine on me so that, when I walk into a room, that’s what people notice about me.” I want that kind of freedom for myself and for others, too.

Ann: I think that’s it; that’s the word, “freedom.” I was talking to one of my best friends. We were walking and talking about this topic, of how it keeps us in bondage. We were talking about the mirror; and I was saying, “I feel like I get stuck in the mirror.” She’s so brilliant; she said, “What we need to do:”—and it’s what you just said—”we need to gaze at God and glance at our bodies.” But what we do is we glance at God; and then, we get stuck, just glazing at our bodies and all the flaws. I think that’s really wise.

Rachael: That’s true.

Ann: I have the picture of women getting your book, and sitting together, talking about their stories and their journey, just getting it out in the light.

Dave:Is it helpful? I’ve got two wives here: “Is it helpful for a husband—he’s wondering what I’m wondering—’Should I ask her? Should I ask my wife, do you ever…’ if she’s never really said much about it. Is this something he should bring up, or should he wait for his wife to bring it up to him?”—you tell me.

Rachael: I think it is a good thing to bring up. I do think it depends on the safety of the marriage. That safety—I know I’ve said that word a few times—but really, people just need to know that “I can trust you with my answer.” Because, so often, somebody will have this conversation—and if I were to be honest back, and say, “No; actually, I’m really struggling,”—and this was something my husband and I had to work through. When I started to be honest with him about what I was really thinking, at first, he would get mad.

Ann: Oh, this is us, too.

Rachael: His first response was anger—and it wasn’t at me—it was at what the enemy was doing to me, how I was in bondage. But it felt like towards me—that anger; I felt the anger—and so that actually shut me down more. We had to kind of walk through that, of me even helping him understand: “I understand you’re angry.” I’d even tell him, “Hey, go be angry at the enemy in your prayer closet; go have it out.” But just for me, at that time—now, I’m in a healthier place; now, I could hear it and it wouldn’t affect me; the anger piece wouldn’t affect me as hard—but when that was the first thing I was met with, it made me feel more shame, too: “Oh, you’re right. I should have myself together. This shouldn’t be.” And of course, he wasn’t saying that to me; but that’s just what I was hearing.

So that’s what I would encourage is: “Yes! Have this conversation; absolutely. But both parties need to be already having healthy conversation with each other about other topics. And if we’re not there yet, I want to first see that the healthy conversation is able to be had so that the one spouse could come back, and say, ‘Okay, what you’re saying right now, I understand you’re wanting to fix it.’” A lot of men are fixers, and I needed my husband to hug me/to hold me while I cried. That’s what I needed, first and foremost; and then, he could walk it out with me. But that’s my personal [story].

How about you, Ann?

Ann: You’re right with our husbands. I wonder if you, as a listener, could even tell your husband: “This is something that I carry every day, and you don’t even know it.” But I would get prayed-up for that as well; and maybe, even start the conversation with: “This could be really hard for you to hear; you might not understand it,” and “I want you just to listen, without reacting or responding at first,”—because it may not be great—like: ‘That’s the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard; you look beautiful!’—but just to listen. I just want to share it with you. It’s a part of me; it’s a part of something that I carry, and it’s a heavy thing; and I’d like to bring you into it.” Do you think that that could work, that conversation?

Rachael: I do; yeah. I think I was even just thinking about, from a male’s perspective, I can see how part of why it’s tempting to respond differently is because you’re afraid she thinks you’re agreeing with her if you don’t immediately go into: “No honey, you’re beautiful”; and “Oh, if you don’t go right there, you might be thinking, ‘Oh, she thinks I’m like, oh yeah, I’ve been wondering when you were going to bring that up.’” So that would be another just good thing to even premise it with: “Just so you know, I believe you’re beautiful; but what I’m hearing you say is that you are walking this, and I am so sorry.

Ann: That’s good.

Rachael: “How can I support you in that? How can I…”—and just being that active listener, who’s reflecting what you’re hearing. This is something people don’t always understand about listening to somebody deliver information: just reflecting to them what we heard is not saying we agree with it.

Ann: That’s good.

Rachael: It’s just helping them feel heard.

For some people, it’s going to be the first time they’ve ever brought this up to anybody. And so it’s going to be—honestly, I feel like it’s holy ground—a very sensitive, very sweet spot, and can really bring a couple together if it’s done just in a beautiful, tender way.

Ann: And I would add, too, I think the first person to bring it up to is God. Tell Him the truth of what you’re feeling, of what you’ve struggled with, of what you’re carrying; because He knows, and He wants to take that burden with you and walk you into freedom.

I think one of the best first steps that we can make is pick up Rachael’s book, Image Restored, because it will take us into some great topics.

Shelby: I’m Shelby Abbott; and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson, with Rachael Gilbert, on FamilyLife Today. And yes, just like Ann said, you can pick up Rachael Gilbert’s book, Image Restored; the subtitle is called Tear Down Shame and Insecurity to Experience a Body Image Renovation—so necessary in our culture right now. You can get your copy by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com, where you’ll find a link in the show notes at FamilyLife Today.

We’re in a season right now of celebrating thankfulness. We really are; Thanksgiving is coming up soon. One of the ways that we, at Family Life, wanted to help you is to intentionally put you together, with your family, and think about and cultivate thankfulness. It’s one of the best ways that you could celebrate this Thanksgiving season, by being with your family, and thinking and acting intentionally about all that you’re thankful for. This is a download that you can get for free at FamilyLifeToday.com. It really helps your family shift focus from what they lack to appreciating what they have. It’s three weeks of hands-on activities, a gratitude scavenger hunt, and conversation starters. Really, all you have to do is get the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com; download that, and enjoy three weeks of practicing gratitude.

Now, tomorrow, Rachael Gilbert is going to be back with the Wilsons to talk about body image, particularly within the context of marriage. That’s coming up tomorrow; we hope you’ll join us. On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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