Is God Really “Gentle and Lowly”?

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Is God Really “Gentle and Lowly”?

Guest:Dane Ortlund

From the series:Gentle and Lowly (Day 1 of 3)

Air date:March 24, 2025

Dave: Okay, here you go. I’m going to give you five seconds; you’ve got to give me three words that describe the heart of Jesus. Go!

Ann: Oh, perfect—

Dave: Five seconds; done.

Ann: —redeemer, grace.

Dave: Perfect, redeemer, grace.

Ann: I guess that’s not the heart I was just describing to you.

Dave: But that’s your heart as you think about Jesus. You know, what’s really interesting is—a lot of us don’t know this—Jesus actually described His heart with two words that we’re going to talk about today.

Dave: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the

relationships that matter most. I’m Dave Wilson.

Ann: And I’m Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is

FamilyLife Today.

Dave: We’ve got Dane Ortlund in the studio with us today. He wrote a book about the two words that define the heart of Jesus.

Dane, welcome to FamilyLife Today.

Dane: It’s great to be talking with you guys today.

Dave: So you got to fly down. I know you’re pastor of Naperville Presbyterian up in the Chicago suburbs. You flew down here with your wife, Stacey, to Orlando. I didn’t know this ‘til you got here and had lunch, that you just left five kids at home.

Dane: We did. It has been—

Dave: How’s that feel?

Dane: It feels great. We’re going to miss them terribly tonight; but for now, we’re going to enjoy 24 hours of calm. [Laughter]

Ann: You’re going out to dinner tonight—

Dane: We are; we are.

Ann: —all by yourselves. You can actually talk without interruption.

Dane: That’s right; that’s right.

Ann: That’s going to be fun.

Dave: And you know what? I shouldn’t even bring this up, but you shared something at lunch that was precious. You’ve got four boys and a little girl. Do you remember what she wrote to you? She gave you a card yesterday.

Dane: She did. She wrote us a card; and she had about 30 little clipped “I love you!!” [stickers] tucked into a taped-on gaudy/taped-on colored pocket. It was the back of one of their homework sheets. That was just her own little heart pouring out.

Dave: That’s precious.

Ann: That’s so sweet.

Dave: And what did you get from the boys?

Dane: That’s a very short answer, Dave. [Laughter]

Ann: “See you, Dad.”

Dane: “See you later!”

Dave: Well, because we had three boys, I knew what that answer was going to be.

Dane: That’s right.

Dave: They didn’t give us anything.

Anyway, we are talking about a book that you wrote—actually, more than the book—the whole idea of the heart of Jesus. I got your book from our son, Austin, when it came out. It was one of these books—and you know, as a pastor, and even as an author—there’s a lot of books written about a lot of things, and you pick them up and you read. This was one of these—I don’t think anybody’s ever felt this about our books—“I can’t put this down; this is a life-changing truth that I’ve got to read.” But when I picked up Gentle and Lowly, it’s one of those things, where I ran down to the kitchen and said, “Ann, you have to read this.”

Ann: So Dane, I pick up your book. I start underlining; and I thought, “Okay, this is ridiculous—

Dave: [Laughter]—underlining everything.

Ann: —“every page, every sentence is underlined. [Laughter] I need to, at least, highlight.” But it felt like all of it needed to be highlighted, because I need it. I think we all need it. As listeners—

Dane: I sure do.

Ann: —you’re going to love this; because we’re really getting to the heart of who Jesus is, and we’re getting to the heart of how He feels about us. I tell you—we were praying before we even began—and I was teary, because I need this.

Dane, you even start the book—and this caught me from the beginning—you say, “This book is written for the discouraged, the frustrated, the weary, the disenchanted, the cynical, the empty, those running on fumes, those whose Christian lives feel like constantly running up a descending escalator.” I read that, and I thought: “Yes,” “Yes,” “Yes.”

Dane: “Check, check, check”; yes.

Ann: Yes, and I think so many of us feel like that. We want this overwhelming love for Jesus; but I think certain personalities, especially, feel like we’re continually failing. This book is a breath of fresh air and a great reminder of who God is/of who Jesus is.

Dave: So talk about how you started understanding it. I already mentioned there’s two words that sort of Jesus used, so tell us about the whole genesis of this concept.

Dane: Well, I feel like I’m a toddler in it, Dave. I’m still learning. This is like an ocean I’m ankle deep in wading out into. Christ Himself, in the one place where He tells us what His heart is, when He is setting the terms—this is not one of the apostles talking about him; this is not one of the letters in the New Testament—He says the most astonishing thing. Who would have guessed, that in the one place where He opens up His heart, He doesn’t say [elevated voice], “I’m joyful and exalted in heart,” or any hundred other true things.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: Yes.

Dane: He says, “I am way down low and extremely accessible: ‘I’m gentle and lowly in heart.’” That’s the Savior we can enjoy being disciples to.

Dave: Well, it’s interesting when I—

Ann: —and that’s the name of the book. I don’t think we said/did we say the name of the book?

Dave: That’s the name of the book, Gentle and Lowly. [Laughter] I mean, it’s interesting; when I read that in your first chapter, I’m like, “How many times have I read Matthew 11—

Dane: Right.

Dave: —“read these words and missed that?”

Dane: Yes.

Dave: It’s something you shouldn’t miss. I preached on that passage, and I missed it!

Ann: I don’t even think we know what that means.

Dave: Now, that’s the next question: Explain “gentle” and “lowly.”

Dane: Well, when He said He’s gentle in heart, what He’s saying, guys, is He is the most tender, and non-manipulative, nonabrasive, approachable person in the universe. The high and holy Christ—the resurrected Christ; the one, who in Revelation 1, the Apostle John sees and falls down as if dead; the one, who the impenitent in

Revelation 6, want the mountains to fall on them so they don’t have to face His wrath—that Christ, most deeply, by His own testimony, is gentle.

And He says He’s lowly. This is almost more wonderful!—you don’t have to go through security to get to him; you don’t have to take a ticket and get in line; He’s not going to put you on hold; you don’t have to raise your voice—that divine and holy, eternally existing Son of God, is way down low next to me in my worst, not waiting for me to get my act together, and then He’ll open the door to me.

This is so profound and wonderful, guys; because we deeply resist this. We do not believe this; we hold it at arm’s length. I very much resonate with what you said earlier, Ann. We stiff-arm this reflexively. The three of us and our listeners are taking a lifetime to unlearn the bad theology that Jesus is not gentle and lowly in heart.

Dave: Yes, and why do we resist it? You are so right. That isn’t who I’ve always believed Jesus to be, and I’m not saying my beliefs are right—they’re actually inaccurate—but we’ve carried that our whole lives. In some ways, we even resist hearing this.

Dane: We do; I do. I do—I’m going to roll out of bed tomorrow morning—and I will not believe that. I mean, I’ll believe it on paper; but the Christ that I believe I’m approaching, when I roll out of bed in the morning, is not gentle and lowly in heart. He is looking at His watch, tapping His foot—loves me and likes me—but “Dane/dufus, come on dude! You’re a pastor! Why are you so weird, selfish, proud and sinful?”

I don’t know why we resist it—Dave, to answer your question—I don’t know the answer except that we are sinners. I believe that what we do, without realizing it, is we project Christ—we think the Christ who is there—is a bigger, better, smiley-er version of us. We are not gentle and lowly in our deepest heart. The heart is your motivation headquarters/what pours out of you. We’re not that way, so we think that Jesus is just a better version of us. The Scripture is defying us at that point/correcting us.

Ann: What prompted you to write this? Like this has to be—I can tell this is from a fire within you—so what made you think, “This is what we need”?

Dane: It’s not the Jesus that I have been walking with most of my life—I was raised in a great family; and I’ve been in great churches; I’ve been surrounded by great books/godly people—but I was confronted with the writings of an old dead theologian named Thomas Goodwin, who lived 400 years ago in England—he put my face in the Scriptures: Old Testament and New; Matthew 11:29 is the tip of the iceberg, but the whole/it’s just consistent with the whole testimony of Scripture.

He [Goodwin] said, “Hey Dane, I want you to see what Christ’s heart is.” He wrote a book called The Heart of Christ in Heaven Towards Sinners on Earth in which he is trying to say: “You think—you disciples of Christ—you think, in this modern time, that because Jesus is way up high now, He’s a little more distant, cool, calculating, and removed.” He just says, “Don’t you dare go through life believing that.”

It was Goodwin, along with a few others, who said: “You can actually believe the whole Bible and be kind of”—I’m pretty conservative in my theology, guys—“and you can talk about the effusive flood-like love of God that soaks/irrigates us at our worst more strongly than any other place in my life,”—that’s too good to be true, almost.

Ann: And it’s so compelling—like that love/that description of what you just painted of our Savior—that makes us run to Him.

Dane: Amen.

Ann: Hey, I just wanted to take a quick minute to jump in and say, “Whatever you’re

going through today—listen to this—you aren’t alone.” I don’t know if you know this, but

Dave and I have a team at FamilyLife Today ready to pray for you. It’s this incredible

honor and privilege just to lift your name up to God. So if you need prayer, please,

please reach out to us. You can head on over to FamilyLife.com/PrayForMe; again,

FamilyLife.com/PrayForMe. Tell us: “How can we pray for you?” And we’re not kidding,

Dave and I have a prayer team specifically dedicated to praying for our listeners,

praying for you.

Dave: You are not alone. We would love to lift you up by name. So again, go to

FamilyLife.com/PrayForMe; and we will pray for you today.

Dave: I remember—I grew up in a single-parent home with my mom, and—

Ann: Oh, you’re going to talk about your picture!

Dave: Yes; I haven’t mentioned this in years. Dane, when you were talking, I was remembering this picture my mom used to have over our fireplace. This is the ‘50s/’60s Jesus/image of praying hands, Jesus’. Some of our listeners will remember this; it was pretty popular, but it’s—

Dane: I can picture it.

Dave: —sort of an oil painting. It’s got the hands, and He’s got sort of a halo effect on it—

Ann: —very solemn

Dave: —long hair. I remember—you know, I didn’t go to church much—but when I did, I never saw a Jesus like you were talking about, Dane. I always saw a judging, holy, wrathful God—which He’s holy—

Dane: —which He is,—

Dave: —and there is a wrath.

Dane: —100 percent.

Dave: I would walk—I remember as a teenager—and I’m not making very good life choices as a teenager, and I know it; I know I’m not doing what my mom wants—I’m sort of copying the sins of my father, who is an alcoholic and a womanizer. Here I am, 17 years old. I would walk through the living room by myself, especially as it was like twilight—six/seven o’clock at night—I’d look over, and I would swear the eyes were just following me through the living room. I remember feeling fear.

I’d look up; it’s like—and here’s what I thought, “He’s watching me,” and “He’s really disappointed,”—just like you said—like, “You know better, dude; what are you doing?” That was my view of Jesus and God; it was like: “That’s who He is.”

Ann: You also described Him as the game, Whac-A-Mole®.

Dave: Yes; you remember Whac-A-Mole?

Dane: Oh, sure; oh, yeah.

Dave: That’s what I just thought: “God just sits up there; and He waits for you to enjoy life, and say, ‘Stop it.’”

So this [new] image—and it’s so beautiful—because, Dane, you said Jesus uses these words about His own heart; it isn’t somebody else talking about Himself. He uses these words, I’m guessing, because He’s like, “This is what you need to know about Me. Of all the things I could tell you, you need to understand this.”

Dane: —“if nothing else; everything is footnotes to that.”

I believe that Jesus Christ is holy; the wrath of the Lamb will be experienced one day by all the impenitent. He is all-seeing; He is the ruler of the cosmos and a hundred other truths in that direction. It’s that Christ who—oh, we are hardwired to be Whac-A-Mole theologians for sure, including me, Dave—I mean, we have Matthew 11 there, where He says that. But then, on every page of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, we don’t see that kind of Jesus on your living room wall, as you were growing up, Dave.

Ann: Yes; right.

Dane: It’s someone who—actually, He apparently is drawn like a magnet to the distressed—the kind of people you quoted earlier—and the frustrated, the disenchanted; i.e., all of us! [Laughter] This is all of us, all the time, in some degree. That’s not the periphery of believers; that’s what we’re all navigating all the time.

Ann: Yes; well, you even say, “When you come to Christ for mercy, and love, and help, you are cooperating with His deepest heart’s desire; and this brings Him joy. It doesn’t bother Him, or drain or irritate Him; He wants us to come to Him. He lives for this: the joy of seeing His people forgiven.”

Dane: Yes, yes.

Ann: What a different picture!

Dane: Oh, it’s so different; isn’t it?

Ann: Yes.

Dane: I mean, Goodwin, and the Puritans, and others—they would talk like this—“It is Jesus Christ’s own deepest comfort when you draw from the riches of His atoning blood.” In other words: “When I sin, I’m feeling guilty; I’m feeling ashamed; and I’m cowering. I’m lurking and withdrawing.

Ann: We’re hiding.

Dane: —hiding: “I’ll give it a week; and then, you know, if I have a good week, then I’ll approach Him.” But actually, that is what saddens Christ’s heart. What He wants/the whole reason He came is so that we can come to Him when we are at our deepest point of need, not once we’re all cleaned up.

Ann: Let me ask you—I mean, this gets into a practical question—“How has this changed your parenting? How do you relay this onto your kids?”

Dane: Oh man, I want it to change my parenting more than it is. Man, we have five little ones. I wrote this book to me, because I’m Type A—

Ann: Me too.

Dane: —judgmental, opinionated, harsh, inpatient: “Get your act together! ”—and I’m unlearning this myself. What I long to do is to gently give my kids a picture of Jesus, and of the heavenly Father, such that, when they leave the home at age 18, they can’t ever believe that Jesus is going to hold them at arm’s length when they are in sin. I want them to never be able to believe that finally.

When they’re really young, I want to give them a picture of the Father’s heart as their dad. When the kids are in the crib, we are God to them. They have no category, abstractly, for God. We are shaping what they believe God is like; and then, as they grow, through my words and through my actions. I’m failing all the time; one reason I need a gentle and lowly Savior is my bad fathering. But what I want them to do is, through my words and through my actions, I want them to know that Jesus is holy; but He’s not that framed picture on Dave’s wall.

Dave: Well, what about as a husband? You know, as you think about this, I’m immediately thinking, “Okay, how do I treat Ann, based on this theology proper of who Jesus is?”

We could bring Stacey in here and ask her, but—

Dane: You know, she was wondering on the plane: “Is she going to get summoned in here?” [Addressing Stacey] “Don’t worry sweetie; we won’t do that.” [Laughter]

Here’s my prayer and longing, Dave—I can speak at that level more easily perhaps—“Our marriage will flourish, I believe, not as either of us seeks to crowbar change into the other person for ourselves, [Laughter] but as we deal gently and tenderly with one another.”

Ann: Dane, I’ve tried the crowbar; it doesn’t work.

Dane: Oh, it doesn’t; does it?

Dave: She’s still trying, I think, actually.

Dane: It comes very naturally to me, Ann. [Laughter] It seems so simple!

Ann: It does; doesn’t it?

Dave: “C’mon, grow up!”—I’ve heard that one before. [Laughter]

Dane: Yes.

Dave: So if you don’t do the crowbar—

Dane: Well, “What if”—as dads and husbands—“What if we were making a pattern, by the grace of God in the power of the Holy Spirit, to constantly surprise our kids and our wives with non-combatting, non-locking horns ways of dealing with them?”

The chessboard got sprayed all over the floor—[Laughter]—[Whispering] this happened yesterday—and it’s not picked up. “Did you do it?” “No.” “Did you do it?” “No.” “Did you do it?” “No.” “Alright! Everyone in here!” [Laughter]

What if I surprised them with patient gentleness? This doesn’t mean we don’t discipline our kids—actually, Proverbs teaches that’s to hate them if we don’t discipline them—but I want them to be constantly melted and lifted into an experience of what the love of God is like, not be raided and pep-talked.

Ann: That was good—those pep talks. [Laughter]

Dane: You and me both!

Ann: I know; I know.

Dane: It’s still so natural.

Ann: Yes, me too.

Tell us how we get that inside of us. You know, we have a couple of minutes left, so how do we take that view—“This is who He is,”—now, we’re learning it; it’s starting to sink in. How do we begin living it?

Dane: I have absolutely nothing new for us, or for anyone listening in, guys. The answer is: you get up in the morning—you set your alarm; you get up in the morning—you get your coffee, favorite chair; you open up this book that we call the Bible; and you open up your heart; and then you do that the rest of your life. You inhale the Scripture; you exhale it—that’s what we call prayer—so you’re breathing and you’re communing with God. You won’t notice changes, day to day, week to week; but actually, God Himself is shaping you into the likeness of Christ: reading the Scripture and praying.

Then here’s one other piece of counsel: “What if we all had one person in our lives, of the same gender, who could ask us anything—and who we didn’t filter—but knew what was really going on behind all of our painted smiles?” That’s what the Bible calls walking in the light, 1 John 1. That kills these perverse, bizarre, lawful, harsh, berating, judgmental ways that we will all [have] because of the flesh, naturally, [working] otherwise.

Scripture, prayer, a friend—be part of a good local church that preaches the gospel—there’s nothing secret or clever here; it’s just the basic disciplines of the Christian life.

Dave: So you’ve got that guy?

Dane: I do; yes.

Dave: What’s that look like?

Dane: It looks like phone calls and texts. We no longer live in the same town, but he knows my weak spots. Actually, we get together for a fire, two or three times a year, and just enjoy fellowship and brotherhood for about eight hours and open our hearts to one another. I don’t do this with every man; actually, that would be unhealthy. I want to be honest, but in varying levels of depth with the men in my life. I don’t want to go through my life, preening, and parading, and pretending my whole life long; that’s an exhausting and miserable way to live.

Dave: I’m just thinking our listener, if there’s anything you take home, that’s it. If you want to understand the gentle lowly heart of God, you’ve got to be in His Word to see it.

Dane: That’s right.

Dave: Because every time I open it, it’s almost like “Oh, I forgot.

Dane: Me too!

Dave: “There it is again; oh, my goodness, I forgot!”

Ann: I mean, to look at Jesus—and to watch His interactions with people/all different people: sinners—

Dave: And we’re going to talk about that next.

Ann: —I know, and I can’t wait—but I mean, I agree: the longer I’m in the Word—and you think, “Oh, I’m just reading the Word,”—no! It changes us. The more we’re in prayer—like the exhaling—we’re in prayer, and we’re talking to God continually throughout the day; it changes us.

Dave: And as Dane said, you need a brother/you need a sister that you can take off the covering and be real with. They will remind you who you are and who He is.

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today, and we’re Dave and Ann Wilson. We’ve been talking to

a favorite guest of ours, Dane Ortlund. We’ve been talking about his book, Gentle and

Lowly: The Heart of Christ for Sinners and Sufferers.

Dave: There’s nobody/I don’t think there’s anybody quite like Dane in his content on the

heart of Jesus. It’s such a good reminder.

Ann: It is.

Dave: We grew up—we talked about this—we grew up thinking, “He’s mad at us,” “He’s

judging us,” “He’s disappointed.” That’s how I grew up. Even seeing the picture of

Jesus, on my mom’s wall by the fireplace, I always felt, “He’s disappointed in me.”

Ann: And I felt like: “I need to perform for Him to make Him love me more.” And when

you hear Dane talk about the gospel and grace Jesus offers, it’s life-transformational; it

changes us.

Dave: Yeah, and this is one of those books you want to read every year. You can read

it once; and you read it again a month later. And then, every year it’s like pull it out

and remind yourself: “This is the heart of God.”

Let me tell you: you can get a copy of Dane’s book, Gentle and Lowly, at

FamilyLifeToday.com; you’ll find a link there in the show notes. Or if you want, you can

give us a call at 800-358-6329. That’s 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the

word, TODAY.

Ann: And if you know anyone else who needs to hear a conversation just like this one,

we would love it if you tell them about our program. You can share today’s specific

conversation from wherever you get your podcasts. And while you’re there, just a simple

way that you can help more people discover God’s plan for families is by leaving a

rating and a review for FamilyLife Today.

Dave: We’d love you to follow us on Instagram at FamilyLife Insta or on Facebook. Let

me tell you: every day there’s regular encouragement on marriage and parenting. I get

it.

Ann: Oh, me too.

Dave: I look at it; it’s encouraging. And sometimes, we hear a program that we did—

and it’s just great—especially, this one with Dane Ortlund, which by the way, we’re

going to talk to him, again, tomorrow; so you don’t want to miss that.

Ann: And you know what’s going to happen when you listen to Dane tomorrow?

Dave: What’s going to happen?

Ann: You’re probably going to cry; I do. [You’re] like, “What?!” The gospel is too good to

be true; it’s just such good news. So I hope you’ll join us, again, tomorrow.

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