MarrIage Blind Spots Keeping You Stuck: Dave Harvey

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Marriage Blind Spots Keeping You Stuck

Guest: Dave Harvey
From the series: Marriage Blind Spots Keeping You Stuck (Day 1 of 1)
Air date: August 26, 2026

Dave Harvey (00:04):
Christianity is not constructed in such a way that we simply go out into the wilderness and grow because it’s just us and God. We’re not meant to walk alone. We’re not meant to grow alone so we grow in community. God gives us the church. He gives us each other. But it’s not just that we have relationships, it’s that growth happens in community. That can begin in the home.
Ann (00:36):
Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.
Dave Wilson (00:42):
And I’m Dave Wilson and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.
All right. We’ve got Dave Harvey with us talking about a book. Dave, how many years ago did you write When Sinners Say I Do?
Dave Harvey (01:03):
Oh, I think it was released in 2007.
Dave Wilson (01:06):
Oh man.
Dave Harvey (01:07):
I’m bad at math.
Dave Wilson (01:08):
You think you can remember what you said?
Ann (01:09):
Well, and you also wrote, I Still Do: Growing Closer and Stronger Through Life’s Defining Moments.
Dave Harvey (01:14):
That’s right.
Ann (01:15):
So we’ve just got a marriage expert on our hands.
Dave Harvey (01:19):
Well, I feel like less of an expert with the passing of every year, but it’s something that I love. I’m very grateful to God for Kim. We’ve been married for 43 years and it’s something that I have the privilege of teaching on regularly and doing seminars and conferences and events, and seeing other people helped by the stuff that’s helped Kim and I brings great joy to me.
Ann (01:41):
That’s fun.
Dave Wilson (01:42):
Yeah. And I mean, this is a reality check because you open—both books, you have this concept of, we bring luggage into our marriage. And even at my church, I remember one time trying to talk about this. So we did a mock little drama skit where we had a husband and wife come up like they’re getting married.
Ann (02:01):
A bride and groom dressed.
Dave Wilson (02:02):
It was their wedding day.
Ann (02:03):
It was our son, actually, and his wife.
Dave Wilson (02:05):
Yeah. And beside them, we had all these bags, and we just wanted the audience to go, “You don’t see these bags, but we’re all bringing stuff. We bring it.” And then you get married and you’re like, “What is that?” And they’re like, “This is who I am. What do you mean?” So you say that as well in the very beginning, but you say one of the bags, if not all the bags, are sin. So explain that.
Dave Harvey (02:27):
Well, I mean, for me, that was a huge epiphany within marriage. I remember one of the first conflicts that we had. I don’t remember all the specifics.
Dave Wilson (02:39):
Kim probably does.
Dave Harvey (02:40):
Well, what she will say, I just remember making these stunningly remarkable insights into Kim’s behavior.
Ann (02:50):
I bet that went well.
Dave Harvey (02:51):
My logic was utterly impeccable because Kim was saying some stuff that was inaccurate and my sense of justice was being violated. And so in an attempt to kind of skillfully identify the essence of the problem—and this is still so embarrassing, but—I said this very matter of factly, not in a threatening way. I just said, “Dear, please stop talking.” I said, “You’re making me angry and you’re making me sin.” And the thing is, it made perfect sense to me because that’s where I was. Prior to marriage, I was growing daily more Christlike. I mean, it was amazing. I was an amazing specimen on earth that nobody else noticed, but I was really amazed at myself because to me, sin was becoming a thing of the past. It was certainly an issue before I was converted. It’s part of my story before I was converted, but now I was a Christian.
(03:56):
And behold, the old has passed away. The new has come. And sin was this old school thing. And then I got married to somebody who had sin issues clearly. And my hopes for the sinless life were like being flushed down the toilet.
Ann (04:13):
She’s wrecking you.
Dave Harvey:
She was wrecking me.
Ann:
And what happens? That is so difficult because we feel like, “Hey, I’m doing pretty good.” Then we get married and we are seeing all these, we’re so triggered. We’re seeing all these new things and then we have kids. Wait, what?
Dave Wilson:
Even worse.
Ann:
Now there’s even more.
Dave Harvey (04:28):
Yeah, join the party.
Dave Wilson (04:29):
But the sin nature in us makes us think—
Ann (04:33):
It’s them.
Dave Wilson (04:34):
—”They’re the reason I’m acting the way I am. It wasn’t there before.”
Dave Harvey:
Yeah.
Dave Wilson:
And they’re bringing the sin luggage in, but not me. And if I have it, it’s a little tiny tote bag and they’ve got a U-Haul truck.
Ann (04:46):
Well, wait, how did Kim respond to your response? I mean, to what you said to her?
Dave Harvey (04:51):
I think the whole thing got elevated. I took it to a whole new level, which I think I did that regularly.
Ann:
Oh boy.
Dave Harvey:
The thing is Paul makes this statement in 1 Timothy. He says that the saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance that Christ Jesus came into the world to save this category of beings, sinners. And then he personalizes it and he says, “Of whom I am the foremost.” The thing about that statement is that’s Paul. He’s on the back end of his life. This is a statement of a mature, seasoned, godly, powerful witness for Jesus Christ. And yet somehow his godliness led him into a deeper grasp of his sinfulness. And his sinfulness sparked a fresh gratitude to the Savior for what He had done for him. So to say “I am the worst of sinners” for Paul was actually a sign of maturity.
(05:53):
It was a sign of health and growth.
Dave Wilson (05:55):
Do you think that is the truth? I believe that the deeper we are in Christ, the more mature we are in Christ, the more wicked we see we are.
Dave Harvey (06:03):
Yes. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen Jack Miller’s diagram. There’s like a sideways vector of V. And so there’s a line that goes up to it. So you imagine two lines, one going up and one going down. He says right here is conversion. And if you look at the cross right here, the cross connects this line going up, the line going down. The line going up is the holiness of God, the goodness of God, the majesty of God, the greatness of God. The line going down is our awareness of our sin. We’re converted we come to Jesus; we really don’t understand fully what the gospel is all about. And so the cross is really small there, but it’s enough to connect those two and we get converted. But what happens is we begin to grow. We go to church, we listen to scripture, we get teaching.
(06:50):
We’re around other believers and God in our mind grows bigger and bigger and more majestic and more holy while at the same time we’re growing. We’re married. We’re seeing our sins in a greater way. We’re having kids. We’re at work. We have a conscience that’s engaged. We have the Holy Spirit at work. And the awareness of our sin is growing more and more with the passing of each month. If that cross remains the same size as it did at conversion and you’re there, then you’ve got this big gap between the holiness of God and the gospel or the sinfulness of us and the gospel. And so you need the cross, the gospel to be growing in your life in every season because ultimately where that leads you to is, I’m the worst of sinners. That’s what Paul was saying. And he was able to say that because the gospel was huge to him.
Chancel Cooper, FamilyLife Director of Media (07:50):
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Dave Wilson (08:45):
Well, what does it take to realize I’m the problem here? It’s not her. It’s not him. Of course it is in a sense, but the bigger problem is look in the mirror. I’ve got a sin issue. I’ve got to deal with that, because it’s so easy to not do that. It’s so easy to go, “What is your problem?”
Ann (09:03):
It’s so easy. We all do it. I love some of the titles of your chapters in all of your books. You’re such a good writer and a creative writer. Chapter two, “Waking Up with the Worst of Sinners.” The news about who we really are. And it’s that point, exactly.
Dave Wilson (09:19):
But our sin nature says, “Yeah, I wake up with the worst sinner. She’s laying right beside me.”
Ann (09:23):
Exactly.
Dave Wilson (09:24):
It’s not me.
Dave Harvey (09:25):
Thank you for naming her.
Dave Wilson:
Exactly.
Dave Harvey:
It was awkward for me to say it, but for you to say it.
Ann (09:31):
Right.
Dave Harvey (09:31):
There’s a quote, one of my favorite Puritan authors, Thomas Watson says, “Till sin be bitter, Christ will not be sweet.” And what the gospel does is the gospel first begins with bad news, really ugly news.
(09:49):
And the really bad, ugly news is not, hey, you’re a sinner, but it’s you’re a sinner and actually the sin is to the degree that you cannot solve the problem. There’s nothing that you can do to save yourself. You are wholly inadequate. You can be Mother Teresa and live the rest of your life for the poor and that’s not going to change your condition. You need something from outside of yourself. You need a Savior. But the gospel starts with that bad news. And the thing is, we think we get converted under that message and then we think we leave that whole category of sinner, and we move on into brighter pastures where—
Ann (10:31):
I’m a saint now.
Dave Harvey (10:31):
That’s right. And that was me. Sin was part of my past. That’s part of my story. That’s part of my testimony. But getting married, you realize, “Oh my goodness, I wasn’t even aware of how much I’ve sinned.” And because you’re having conflict, you’re newly married, or even deeper in marriage and you can’t figure out half the time what’s going on. It’s like, “Am I possessed?” “Is she possessed?” “What is happening here?” Because if marriage is so great, why does it seem to reveal the worst in me? To which we would say, yeah, now we’re beginning to understand one of the primary purposes of marriage because marriage is about ministry to each other. But for ministry to take place, God will be faithful to show each other those weak parts and those sinful parts so that you can put the gospel into play and you can grow together and you can begin to apply the gospel and enjoy the gospel in the context of your home.
Ann (11:35):
I think that’s so rich. It’s so beautiful. Where do you think you had a blind spot?
Dave Harvey (11:41):
Mine may have been “Well, sure. I’m a sinner. I’m just not as bad as you are.” And if you’re listening, how many marriage conflicts can be traced back to one spouse believing that they are morally superior to the other and that they actually exist on a higher moral ground? And in actuality, they don’t understand the gospel. They don’t understand how the gospel levels the playing field and they don’t understand how destructive self-righteousness is to the marriage. Because their belief is my spouse is the foremost of sinners. Like Paul says, “Of whom I am the foremost.”
Ann (12:27):
But I’m thinking as a woman, and I talk to a lot of other wives, we can think our husband isn’t as good relationally or their relational IQ for us isn’t as good as mine. And so what we can think is “He’s out there doing all this stuff, but I know how I could make us great.” And I’m looking at you like, “Hello. Are you seeing what needs to be done in our home and our family and our marriage and as a dad? Are you seeing any of that?” Because I’m noticing all of the relational aspects in our home and how he’s not meeting them. So there’s my pride. We’re sinking because you’re out here giving your best energy away, but in here we’re dying for some attention. And so then that pride says it’s your fault. And man as soon as we start pointing fingers, we’re in trouble.
Dave Harvey (13:23):
Yes. And the beauty of marriage is that as you begin to mature and the gospel moves to the center and you can own your own need for the gospel, then you can be mirrors for one another where you can talk to your spouse about what you see in them. Most often we would hope that’s the good things you see in them where God’s grace is at work in powerful ways and you’re able to celebrate that. But also you can be honest with each other. And because of the security that’s drawn from the gospel, that doesn’t bring the marriage or the relationship under threat. It’s actually, you’re helping each other grow.
Dave Wilson (13:58):
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned, and I love this analogy of Nathan coming to David and addressing his sin. Talk about that in marriage because as soon as I read that, I’m like, I’m preaching that baby. You need a Nathan in your life. You don’t want them because they’re a prophet and they’re going to come and point out something that you need to hear, but that’s what your spouse can be. So explain that. That is a great concept.
Dave Harvey (14:25):
In marriage, and then if God gives you children, the children become part of this as well. You’re trying to build a culture within the family. And an important feature of that culture needs to be we are honest with each other. We are gracious with each other and we’re helping each other grow. So this is all another way to say we’re going to be Nathans. The idea is we’re going to be truth speakers and we’re going to make a place for truth speakers. When that culture is in play and it’s being cultivated and the gospel’s at the center of it so that people within the home are more aware of the areas where you enjoy in them rather than the areas of your weakness and they live in the reality of God’s approval because the gospel is magnified, then I think truth telling becomes a part of the culture.
(15:22):
Being able to say to each other, thou are the man. And that doesn’t break down, that doesn’t tear the relational fabric within the home, but it actually is servicing and satisfying and embodying the very culture that you’re trying to build. The result of that is growth. The result of that is change. That’s what happened with David is that he repented as a result of that because he was smitten by it and he needed to be smitten by it. It’s important to realize that Christianity is not constructed in such a way that we simply go out into the wilderness and grow because it’s just us and God. God could have ordained the economy of our growth to happen in that manner. He did not. In the garden, he created the woman for the man. The animals were in play there as well. We’re not meant to walk alone.
(16:19):
We’re not meant to grow alone. So we grow in community. God gives us the church. He gives us each other. But it’s not just that we have relationships, it’s that growth happens in community. That can begin in the home. And if we have a vision for that, the home becomes a place where people that are grown up reflect back and think the most formative years of my life had Jesus at the center and I learned to be gracious and to celebrate good things, but I also learned to be honest. I learned to be Nathan.
Dave Wilson (16:52):
Yeah. And at some point, I mean, thinking of David, there had to be a sense of humility to receive that from Nathan. And that has to happen in a marriage too because I have to, at some point, realize I am the chief of sinners. It’s not her. It’s me. Now she’s got her issues too, but it’s me so that when she comes to me or he to her, there’s enough humility to say, I need to hear this. I don’t want to hear it. I don’t even want to believe it. But you love me and you’re telling me because you love me. This is true about me. What am I going to do with this, in other words. Otherwise, it’s going to be isolation. I’m going to pull away. I’m going to blame you. You’re going to blame me. And that’s what most marriages do. It’s just so sad rather than I have issues, please point them out.
(17:39):
I want to be better. God’s given me a gift. You are a gift. And the gift sometimes is going to speak truth and it’s going to hurt.
Dave Harvey (17:46):
That’s right.
Dave Wilson (17:46):
But I’m going to get better. And you can’t get there unless you’re willing to say, “I am the chief of sinners.”
Dave Harvey (17:51):
Yes.
Ann (17:51):
But I’d also point out that the way, and you pointed it out too, Dave, that you said you have gratitude and you’re speaking life and good things into each other so that when a truth is spoken, it can be received. It’s not this badgering, this constant battering of your esteem because you’re not doing anything right. You’re saying both are taking place. But Nathan was a genius in his approach to David.
Dave Harvey:
Yes, he was.
Ann:
And so I think sometimes if we can put some prayer into it of how to approach our spouse with the truth, because it’s not easy to receive some hard truth. So for us to put some prayer into it and also, Lord, how should I frame this? How can I package it in a way that they’ll hear my intent isn’t to harm them, but to help them? But what if we have spouses that never give us any input?
(18:41):
Because I’ve talked to a lot of women that would say, my husband will never tell me anything. And I’m open like, “Tell me, tell me.” And I know that that can go both ways because some people can perceive this as conflict or I don’t want to hurt them. What do you think you’d say to those people? Dave, you’re a little bit like that—my Dave.
Dave Wilson (18:58):
I’m so nice. No I mean, I think sometimes I’m afraid.
Dave Harvey (19:06):
Yeah.
Dave Wilson (19:06):
I’m afraid of where it’s going to go and it’s not that big a deal, so I’ll just live with it.
Dave Harvey (19:12):
But it could get messy and complicated.
Dave Wilson (19:13):
It is bigger than I want to admit.
Dave Harvey (19:15):
We want to keep peace.
Dave Wilson:
Yeah.
Dave Harvey:
I can relate to that as well. I think that when it comes to sharing something with another person about an area of sin or weakness, I think that needs to start in prayer. And so often we can skip over that because of our desire to just get it done, to engage God. And then I think we’re going to them as fellow sinners who ourselves have received mercy. So we’re not Moses coming down from the mountain with the law.
Dave Wilson:
Shekinah glory.
Dave Harvey:
We’re all glow. And we know their sin.
Ann (19:52):
There’s a humbleness.
Dave Harvey (19:53):
There’s a humility absolutely. Because we’ve sinned in the same way. Also, we could be wrong in what we see.
Ann (20:02):
Oh, even stating that. I could be wrong.
Dave Harvey (20:03):
We know in part, we prophesy in part. The most I’ll ever get on anybody is part. The most I’ll ever get on my kids or most I’ll ever get on my spouse. That’s why questions have to be asked and observations are brought, not conclusions.
Ann:
Oh, that’s good.
Dave Harvey:
But we bring observations to them.
Dave Wilson:
That’s good.
Dave Harvey:
And have conversation around that because one of the ways that I know that my heart is moving towards self-righteousness or that there is resentment in what I’m saying toward Kim is that I’ll become almost graciously prosecutorial. I’ll have this inner attorney who appears, who is preoccupied with times and dates. “Let me just stop you right there, dear. May I remind you that on May 6th in 2021 at 7:12 PM”—
Dave Wilson (21:00):
I have a photo right here.
Dave Harvey (21:02):
—”you said, and I quote—” and it’s evident that I’m trying to win an argument. I’m not trying to serve a soul.
Ann (21:12):
That’s good.
Dave Harvey (21:12):
I’m not trying to help her connect with Christ. My baggage is now fully in play. I think there needs to be a lot of mercy and a lot of reflection upon how much we’ve been forgiven.
Ann (21:24):
That’s so good.
Dave Harvey (21:26):
And then that helps to cultivate a personal heart, a culture within our own heart to be able to go to others and manage to help the other people with their sin.
Ann (21:36):
Well, you said two things. And I’m thinking even when we talk to our kids or our grandkids, you said a couple things. You come in with humility. “Hon, I know I’m not perfect and I mess up all the time and I could be wrong about this.” That right there just diffuses all that defensiveness because you’re coming with this—
Dave Wilson (21:57):
Not all of it because I can still be defensive.
Dave Harvey:
You can still manage.
Dave Wilson:
Even though it’s perfect, I still—
Ann (22:03):
And let me add this too, because we need to with any of this kind of discussion. If you are in a relationship where your spouse is being abusive physically and harming you or your kids in any way, we’re telling you first of all, you need to get help. And I would say to get out and get safe because the most loving thing you can do is to get safe and get your kids safe. This is important.
Dave Harvey (22:28):
Yeah. Because true mercy, and true love, does not enable abuse. In fact, true love, true mercy sees that the highest form of love is not to submit to abuse, but to expose the evil of abuse. That’s why it’s important to get other people involved and to not be alone and not buy the lie that, “Hey, I just need to be in this. I just need to weather this.” We need to get other people involved and help us in the interpretive process of what it is we’re going through.
Dave Wilson (23:03):
So to wrap up, if you are looking at two sinners who just said I do, what would you say to them?
Dave Harvey (23:10):
Well, I would say congratulations. You’re in for a glorious adventure together. There will be surprises and delights that you could never have even anticipated. And there will be hardships that you never dreamed would take place. There are going to be times where you love each other in ways that you can’t describe through words and other times where you don’t want to even be in the same room together. But God is forming you and shaping you through this marriage in a way that in heaven, though you will no longer be married, you’ll be amazed at the soul that’s formed in you and how much you love Jesus because of the marriage.
Dave Wilson (23:49):
That’s good.
Ann (23:50):
That’s a great way to end it.
Dave Wilson (23:52):
That’s beautiful. And guess what? You can get this book, FamilyLifeToday.com. Click on the link in the show notes. We’ve got When Sinners Say I Do: Discovering the Power of the Gospel for Marriage. Great stuff. Thanks.
Dave Harvey (24:05):
Thank you for having me on.
Ann (24:06):
Hey, we want to make sure that you know the Back to Small Group Sale—did you hear that—the Back to Small Group Sale ends August 31st and that’s 25% off every FamilyLife video study and workbook. And you don’t need a code; you just go to FamilyLife.com/shop.
Dave Wilson (24:26):
Any study, Art of Marriage, Vertical Marriage, Art of Parenting, we’ve got them there for you and you can get them at a discount.
Ann (24:34):
There’s not much time left; sale ends August 31st.
Dave Wilson (24:37):
If you’re like me, you’ll be clicking that link right now, FamilyLife.com/shop.
Ann (24:45):
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