
Should You Try To Be ‘Perfect?’ David & Meg Robbins
Harder, faster, better, stronger.’ Are you constantly striving to be better? Perfect? David and Meg Robbins share their growth from perfectionism to grace.

Show Notes
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About the Guest

David and Meg Robbins
As 17-year veterans of Cru, David and Meg Robbins have served in a variety of capacities, beginning as field staff at their Alma Mater, the University of Mississippi. In 2003, they moved to Pisa, Italy, to serve as overseas team leaders for Cru. It was during that time they fell in love with finding ways to relate and communicate with a secular, pluralistic culture. They trained to serve overseas long-term until God surprisingly led them back to the U.S.
Episode Transcript
FamilyLife Today® National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript
References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete.
Should You Try to Be Perfect?
Guests:David and Meg Robbins
From the series:Should You Try to Be Perfect? (Day 1 of 1)
Air date:July 10, 2024
Dave: Alright, do you know something I didn’t know about you when we got married?
Ann: What?
Dave: You’re sort of a perfectionist.
Ann: I am?
Dave: I would have never used that term, but you’re much more particular about doing things right [Laughter] and on time; and even when we speak, it’s like, “What time are we supposed to be done? We can’t go one second over.” And I’m like, “Ehhh, we could go a couple minutes over.”
Ann: I don’t think that’s perfectionism. I think that’s just—
Dave: —See? She doesn’t like the word. I can tell.
Ann: —doing the right thing. [Laughter]
Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.
Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!
Dave: Well, we’re going to talk about that today with David and Meg Robbins. Our President is back in the studio. Glad to have you guys back.
David: You guys—glad another recovering current perfectionist can be at the table.
Meg: Glad to be here.
David: Here we are. [Laughter]
Ann: So, am I saying that I am?
Dave: No, I’m not saying you’re—
Ann: —is it bad? I’m going to admit it, because even in the bathroom sinks—
Dave: —oh, yes.
David: —ohhh.
Ann: —I don’t like there to be a spot on the faucet.
Dave: Oh, yes!
David: Oh, really? [Laughter]
Ann: I guess that could be . . .
Dave: Well, I’m not a perfectionist then.
Meg: This is my life. [Laughter]
Ann: No, no—
Meg: —you can be a perfectionist about certain things.
Ann: Yes.
Dave: Yes.
Ann: See, Meg knows. What is David’s imperfection? What is it that bugs him?
Meg: Well, definitely timeliness, I think—
Ann: —okay—
Meg: —or ending on time when we’re speaking, which is good, I guess.
David: You know, if Google Maps is saying “18 minutes,” you may need to factor in the parking lot and finding your keys time, you know? [Laughter] It may be helpful.
Ann: But for David, you’re saying time management.
Meg: Time.
Ann: What else?
David: I think I’m really hard on myself, and that comes from how, actually, my initial relationship with God—how I related to Him.
Ann: Oh, me too, David.
David: He gives so much grace when we’re growing like a weed with Him. I think of those college years. I go back to wanting to walk with God right, but yet make all “A’s” and be excellent at everything, which is good. There’s a good desire, and desire for excellence.
Ann: Yes.
Dave: That’s still a strong desire, to glorify God to the best of my ability. Yet, when any ounce of control or “Do I have what it takes?”—
You know, your identity stuff gets mixed in—
Ann: —yes—
Dave: —and it begins to end up affecting the people closest to you.
Ann: And your whole family—
Dave: —yes.
Ann: —because, for me, it is a perfectionistic and a performance-oriented lifestyle. I’m continually performing, and when you feel that yourself, that can permeate into your home, into your marriage, into your children, unless you dig deeper into it. It looks like and sounds like you have done that.
David: Or else. I mean, we would never— [Laughter]
Meg: Yes, that’s true. I think what you said—I was actually thinking the same word, “performance.” Maybe that’s different—I don’t know, but I think that’s probably where roots of it are. I have similar tendencies, too, about certain things, probably. I do think so much of these tendencies do come from our past, you know?
Ann: Yes; me, too.
Meg: Whether it’s things we believed about ourselves when we were younger, in the teenage years or whatever; or things that we didn’t believe about ourselves that were true, that we didn’t need to earn anything; just really resting in God’s grace. I can have a tendency, even as a mom, to lie in bed at night and beat myself up emotionally.
Ann: Oh! Oh, I was so good at that. [Laughter]
David: Oh, man.
Dave: In some ways, that’s the question: how do you find peace?
Meg: Yes.
Dave: You used the word “grace.” There’s a balance over perfectionism or performance. So, talk about that, because I know Ann, in our parenting book, wrote about just lying in bed almost daily—
Ann: —guilt-ridden—
Dave: —about our kids. And I would lie in bed like, “Oh, they’re all good!” Actually, they weren’t—I should have been more in tune—but there was not peace on one side of our bed, and I wondered, “Okay, how do you get there?” That’s the question.
Ann: Meg? [Laughter]
David: Still cranking, right?
Meg: Yes. Our first child is graduating and going off to college this year, and I certainly lie in bed and think about things that I wish I had done differently: kind of that feeling of “Ahhh! We’re out of time.”
Ann: Yes.
Meg: I know we’re not going to be disconnected forever, but—
Dave: —and you are not done. [Laughter]
Meg: That actually gives me a lot of relief to know that, but, yes, I think it’s a great question, and I think that as I lie in bed and process those things—because I do the same thing—I can either take boxing gloves to myself, or I feel like that, especially even the last month, it’s like the Lord is saying, “Rest. Trust Me. I love him more than you, even, and you love him, and you have invested in him.” But it’s easy for me to focus on the gaps or the things that I said that I wish I hadn’t said, or whatever it might be.
Ann: I think we give ourselves too much credit in ways of, too much credit meaning, it’s not all about us and our parenting. It’s important. We need to be intentional.
David: We have to be intentional.
Ann: We’re all about that at FamilyLife.
Meg: For sure.
Ann: But we also give ourselves too much credit for when they go bad or when things go wrong or when our kids have walked away. It’s not always us.
Meg: Right, right.
Ann: How many interviews have we had where the kids have walked away, but in the midst of their pain and trial, they’ve encountered this incredible God Who loves them and just pours out His grace.
Meg: So true.
David: I think, even having this conversation, if you relate to those of us around this table who struggle with perfectionism, and bringing that performance orientation into your relationship with God, I think [of] a few of the things that I still have to remind myself of, but I really had to come to terms with. One is, shame is from the pit of hell.
Ann: Yes!
David: Now, there is healthy conviction, and there is guilt that leads to repentance. And may we live lifestyles of faith and repentance. It’s one of the number one things you can do to get out of a performance orientation: just be quick to repent! Christians should be some of the most repentant people on the planet, but yet we end up being some of the most “hold it all together, it depends upon me”-type of personalities. No.
But then, when we get in bed at night or when we start performing and getting on our treadmill of going too fast and needing to prove the next thing and measure up to the next level, this phantom level that we hold ourselves to, if shame is entering your head—
Ann: —and let’s give an idea of what that looks like. What’s a healthy conviction versus the shame in our head?
Meg: Yes. To me, the distinguishing factors are conviction is very specific; something I can actually go and confess, whether that’s to the Lord or to my child or my spouse. Shame is more of just this general feeling or false belief about myself.
Ann: I would add on to that, as well, because that’s exactly how I would define it. You’re right. I’ve oftentimes had to get up, even in the middle of the night or in the morning—
Dave: —she has done this in the middle of the night.
Ann: —where I’ve been convicted just to say, “Hon, I am so sorry. I was so wrong today.” But then, if you get back in bed and you’re still wallowing, and then you’re going forward like, “And that will probably cause them to rebel, and then, they’ll walk away from God.” I could go down this whole cycle, you know?
Meg: Right.
Ann: So, I think one of the things I’ve learned to do—I bet you guys have, too—is, I’m confessing it, and as you said, I’m repenting: “God, I feel like I failed at this today. Thank You that You have forgiven me, and You know my shortcomings. I give it to You, Father.” And I visually see myself handing it to Him. And then, I ask, “Lord, will You just give me peace that surpasses all understanding and then, guard my heart and my mind in Christ Jesus?”
Dave: Philippians 4.
Ann: And then, I stop. I take that captive, and I will not think about it any longer. That takes some time to learn that. Have you guys done that?
David: Yes. I would say that’s a great reactive way, when you’re in the thick of it, it is that simple and yet, it’s profound—
Ann: —yes—
David: —that you’re putting what is true in Christ about you at the forefront. You’re confessing it, and you’re putting on–-Colossians 3; you’re putting on—Who God is, putting on Christ of what is true, while confessing and owning up. We’re not minimizing sin there.
Ann: Right.
David: I Peter says you get to get back “in step with the Holy Spirit.” I wasn’t in the marching band, but I have a friend who gives the analogy of, when someone gets out of step in the marching band on the field, you don’t go sit on the sidelines for five minutes before you get back in step. You just have to get right back in step.
Ann: That’s good.
David: And that’s the thing: we get the gift of grace to get right back in step. On the other side is, there are actually ways you can be proactive in your perfectionism, in your performance, to put your security where it really needs to be found. I loved how you said when you confess, and you stop, it ends up bringing a peace. “Okay, Lord. It’s You.” In the same way, you can be proactive and say, “God, what am I looking for out of this?”
Ann: Yes.
David: And all of a sudden, the Holy Spirit can speak. He can use His Word and reveal to you, “I’m wanting to be validated as a”—fill in the blank—”a mom, a leader, someone who contributes to my kids’ school, a friend.” There are so many ways that we look for validation. An insecure heart ends up being a hungry heart. You end up going to look for it in other places.
Ann: Yes.
David: There is a way that you’re going to have to do it over and over again, saying, “Okay, God. You’re the One Who has set this day before me as a mom, in my vocation/work, and whatever this day holds.” I’m going to, right now, proactively say, “God, I am looking to You, the only perfect One—Your performance, Your opinion, not others’ opinions and my performance.”
We just get to speak that over ourselves before we walk out the door, or when you’re in the car on a commute, and walk into the day saying, “Okay, trials are going to come. They’re going to test where I find my identity. I’m choosing, right now, Lord: You are enough, and I’m finding myself in You.”
Dave: Yes. I think so much of it is where you’re looking. Believe it or not, I did play in the marching band.
David and Meg: Okay.
Ann: Yes, you did.
Dave: Snare drum. Whenever you got out of step, which happens, you literally have to look down the line as quick as you can, and it’s really just a [snap], and you’re back in step, because you’re not usually out of step; you’re just “Oh-ahh.” So, it’s that quick.
We’ve been talking to Faith Chang the last couple days about peace over perfectionism.
One of the things that was the theme of those days is: where are you looking? Because when you don’t have peace, it’s usually I’m not looking at my Leader—again the marching band analogy—down the line.
David: Sure.
Dave: But what you just said, David, that was so key was, when I am not walking with Jesus—which means in His Word, talking to Him, daily conversation—
Ann: —He’s our leader—
Dave: —without ceasing, I get my eyes on other stuff, and peace is gone.
David: Yes.
Dave: Whether it’s the bank account, paying for college, which you’re dealing with right now.
Meg: That’s us.
Dave: Those are the kind of things [about which] I lie in bed at night and think, “I don’t have peace. I’m supposed to have peace. I am stressed out.” But when I get my eyes back on Him, I think, “It’s okay.” I take a deep breath; there’s peace. He’s got it.
So, here’s the question: how do you keep your eyes there? Because it’s easy for me to sit here right now and say it. I can get in my car in five minutes, and I’m right back to something that’s going to cause, not peace, but the opposite. What do you guys do?
David: One of the things we’ve been actively doing in this recent season is, “Are we making space to clear debris of the noise of life, and actually, not just, ‘I’m going to get in my brown chair in the morning and read the Bible.’“ It stays very frontal cortex, and “I’m going to academically, logically, engage in God’s Word.” That’s what I do. That’s a habit and a rhythm. “Let’s do that.” For some, that’s where you start.
Dave: Yes.
David: If you’re not doing that, open up God’s Word and say the simple prayer of, “God, Your Word is living and active. As I read today, would You speak to me?” So, start there. For me, it’s easy to have that as a habit, and all of a sudden, though, I’m not really talking with the Lord sometimes. I’m not really clearing the debris of all that’s going on and stressing me out in life, and saying, “God, I want to hear from You. I want to bring all of this to You.”
It can become academic; it can become in your head. So, the first thing that comes to my mind is what’s most recent. That is, “Alright. Am I contemplating? Am I meditating on His Word?” All that means is taking a piece of His Word and dwelling on it over and over again, letting it saturate deeper. There are reasons He brings us to different parts of His Word. It’s going to apply to spaces in our lives that we’re processing.
I’m really good to read a chunk of Scripture and journal about it a little bit. Am I willing to sit with Him? “God, Your Word is living and active, and I need it today. Let me dwell on this passage of Scripture a little longer. What part of my life do You want to apply this to?”
Ann: I think one of the things that I remember—Dave, I’ve shared this before, but it always comes to my mind with this topic—is you preaching, talking about—
Dave: —wait, wait. Where are you going with this?
Ann: —casting our cares upon Jesus; and how you were in church preaching, and you took the fishing—he had a fishing pole on stage.
Dave: This was a long time ago.
Ann: I know, because I’m a visual learner, I probably remember the visual of it. You took the worry, you hooked it on the hook, and you cast it. You cast it. I hope it didn’t hook anybody, but you cast it off the stage. [Laughter] What was the Scripture you used? Was that the Scripture you used?
Dave: No, it was I Peter 5: “Cast your cares upon Him because He cares for you.”
Ann: “He cares for you.”
Dave: And I remember having this thought, “I’m going to put ‘worry’ on this little hook,” and I cast it out, and then I had somebody (a volunteer), and I said, “Hey, when it comes out there, take ‘worry’ off and put ‘peace,’ and then I’ll reel it back in.” So, that was the idea.
Meg: Nice.
Ann: But what you said, and I thought, “Oh, this is so true,” because you cast it, you give Him your worries, you give Him your shame, you give Him everything, but then you have to cast it again.
Dave: Yes, it’s like all day you’re casting.
Meg: It’s not over; right.
Dave: That’s good.
Ann: Right.
Dave: Because you put worry back on there.
Meg: We just pick it right back up.
Dave: And it covers up the peace of God, but the peace is available.
Ann: Yes.
David: I do think there’s that practical minute-by-minute, even, daily, ongoing reality of, “Okay, what does it look like to not be overcome with our perfectionism?” And then you pull back up right where we started at the beginning of this time: “Okay,” our own stories; “How did this get rooted in? What makes it the kids for Meg, and whether I’m a good enough leader or not for me?“
I think about a time when the Lord started really uprooting this for me. It was in my late 20’s, early 30’s, and He used a variety of things; but one of the areas was 2 Corinthians 5: “For Christ’s love compels me. As a result, I no longer live for myself, but I live for the One Who died for me.” And then it goes on about [how] we become His ambassadors, etc., getting to represent His kingdom.
But “Christ’s love compels.” In some translations, “compels” is too weak of a verb, really. It’s “controls,” you know? His love, and if you go look into that, it’s kind of this ongoing, present-tense love, today, [that] compels and controls me in such a way, I’m no longer going to live for myself, but I’m going to live for Him.
I just remember, very practically, as I was just journeying into this deeper, God bringing some of the idols I had in my heart to the forefront in this, saying, “David, if you’re going to keep living a life that is going to be glorifying to Me, it’s not just believing the right things, and believing My love for you. It is being a lover of it in a way that you’re living it!” And Christ’s love—not just “I believe” it helps me live for Him; no, I experience it in a way that I can’t help it.
So, since perfectionism/grace is one of those areas, it’s hard for a perfectionist to experience grace. It’s hard for a mom after a really hard day with kids where you lose it, or a dad that comes home—this was kind of me last night. I came home, and we had gone to a kid’s sport after work, and I just conked out. There were kids that had needs, and I just—
Ann: —and a wife—
Meg: —and he’s right there on the couch!
Dave: Yes. Mim walked in late, and she said, “Wow, he’s really out!”
Meg: Yes.
Dave: I think I remember hearing that. And then you mosey up to bed; it was just one of those nights I just fell out. You feel that guilt of: “I totally disengaged.” I was processing this recently: “Okay, not just being a believer, needing to depend upon His grace, but a lover, depending on His grace.” And not every now and then; all the time, present tense.
I get what I do not deserve all the time from God. That’s the way I have relationship with Him, and I get to wake up today after an evening last night of being a little overly disengaged than my preference, and walking to bed in some guilt, thinking, “That’s not the dad I want to be.” [Laughter] “Okay, there’s grace to cover it. Confess it. Now, out of grace, who do I get to walk into today? I’m getting what I don’t deserve today. I get the Spirit of God to empower me today to go live out who He has made me to be.”
So often, we want to take on the performance ourselves. We need to go measure up; we need to go step into it.
Ann: Yes.
Dave: No, ask the Spirit, by His grace, because He’s given you grace to forgive your sin, and He’s put into you His Spirit to give you power. There are divine resources for us to step into and to say, “God, would You, today, empower me?” We get to pray that prayer over, we get to cast that reel, too!
Ann: Yes!
Dave: And say, “Okay, will You take the worry away and, in the power of Your Spirit, Lord, give me peace? And I’m going to go live into that today.”
Ann: That’s good.
Meg: I think one other side of perfectionism—you said earlier on, Ann, that we often take too much credit when our kids are struggling or walk away, or are wrestling with their faith, or whatever.
Ann: Yes.
Meg: But I think we can also—this is kind of, I think, where the false belief that we actually are in control, that’s kind of sometimes what leads to perfectionism.
Ann: Yes.
Meg: I think that the flip side of that is that we can, when they’re doing well, think that’s because of something that we’re doing. And it is this really hard tension, because we do want to be intentional, and we do want to pour into our kids and point them to Jesus, and we’re called to that. And yet, looking at God, He is a perfect parent, and yet not everybody chooses to follow Him.
So, we don’t control the outcome; they do make their own choices. And yet, I think sometimes, that can be the driving factor. We start to believe that it does rest on us, you know?
Ann: We do.
Meg: And we put this pressure on us, which leads to shame, and we forget the grace that we need, that David’s talking about. We just need to be lovers of what He offers us in that.
Ann: So, let’s hit some application as we close. What could this look like? We’ve given a lot, but as we close, anything that you would really encourage parents to do?Meg: I just come back to a lot of prayer, and just continue, whether it’s casting my cares, the things that are worrying me, the shame that I might feel at night—just continuing—to offer those things to the Lord. Also, sometimes, I literally picture myself picking up my child—
Ann: —me too, yes.
Meg: —even if they’re 17, and giving them into the hands of the Lord. He already has them, but I have to remember that, and I have to go through that motion in my mind, just knowing, “Okay, Lord. You love them, and You’ve got this, and whatever I mess up or [when I] say things that I wish I didn’t say, You’re so much bigger than that, and You’re writing a story that’s going to include the mistakes that I made,” and that’s okay.
David: Another thing I would say is: know the scripts that you tell yourself, and tell your spouse, tell close friends, at a certain point tell your kids. “These are scripts I play in my head, and most of them can be scripts of shame that have shaped us throughout our lives. ‘I couldn’t be the elite athlete like my dad, but man, I can be the leader like him. That’s how I’ll be a man. Let me go be a leader.’” And that ends up taking an over-perfectionistic outplay in my life.
It’s good to confess, honestly, when you’re playing those scripts. I remember I said to Meg yesterday, “I feel like I’m kind of comparing to this certain person or two, and I’m watching myself posture.” I’ll start playing that script. “I have to confess that, and I want to confess that to you.” Or there was a picture sent from a senior event that we just had, and I said, “Oh, I look really old in that picture.” [Laughter] It’s funny.
Ann: Welcome to your future. [Laughter]
David: Yes, there you go.
Dave: You look really young to me!
David: But at the same time it’s like, “No, that’s real.” That script gets imbedded—
Ann: —yes, yes—
David: —if we don’t go grab that quickly and bring it into the light. If you have a spouse, that’s one of the gifts to bring the scripts you play. They know your scripts! And spouses, let’s don’t take advantage or manipulate when someone comes with a tender thing that’s recent, saying, “Okay, I can see this end up playing my script where I get unhealthy again, and I start becoming a perfectionist.”
Ann: I think, too, David and Meg, that would be a great conversation to have carefully with your highschooler.
David: Yes!
Ann: “Hey, guys, I don’t know if you’ve ever done this, but I have these scripts in my head,” and you could say one of them that would be appropriate. “Have you guys ever struggled with that?” Wouldn’t that be a great conversation?
Meg: For sure.
David: It is.
Ann: Because they would say, “Wait, you guys struggle with that?” So, to be able, as a family to say, “How can we pray for each other?” I love the idea and the thought of that happening around dinner tables or bedtimes.
Meg: Yes.
Shelby: That’s a great idea. Why don’t you try that with your teenager or teenagers this week? Maybe even tonight, if you have time between homework and sports practice and dinner, and a million other things going on, I’m sure. Be vulnerable with them. It might be the most memorable thing in their week; something that sticks with them, maybe even for a lifetime.
I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with David and Meg Robbins on FamilyLife Today. We’ve been talking about perfectionism, and earlier this week, we had on Faith Chang, who wrote a book called Peace Over Perfection. This book is going to be our gift to you when you give to the ministry of FamilyLife. You can get your copy right now with any donation by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com and clicking on the “Donate Now” button at the top of the page.
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Now, tomorrow, Dave and Ann Wilson are back with Dr. Gary Chapman and Laurel Shaler. Laurel is going to recount her journey through failed adoptions and the unexpected blessings of adopting her children. That’s coming up tomorrow. We hope you’ll join us.
On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.
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