The Hidden Peace: Joel Muddamalle

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript

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The Hidden Peace

Guest: Joel Muddamalle

Release Date: December 23, 2025

Joel (00:00:00):

The way that I see humility is three things. Humility protects us from thinking too low of ourselves: we’re children of God. Humility prevents you from thinking too high of yourself; because when we look at other people, we are forced to see other image-bearers of God. And the last one is it’s a preservation. It’s not that there’s not going to be anxious moments in your life. What it does mean is that, in those moments, you’re reminded of the faithful hands of Jesus.

Dave (00:00:26):

Let me start here; this is a question that I think you are the man to answer.

Joel: Oh, alright.

Dave: You don’t even know what I’m going to ask.

Joel: I have no idea.

Dave: As I think about our society/our culture, the rise of unprecedented anxiety, especially in our kids—you’ve got kids, you’ve got four; we raised three boys; we have parents listening—I’ve seen anxiety I’ve never seen in our culture. The research and numbers say all that; you’ve written and you talk about hidden peace—but your answer, and you tell me if I’m wrong—is: “The way to deal with anxiety is humility.” And when I first read it, I’m like, “Wait a minute; how is that the answer—

Ann: How did you get to that?!

Dave: —”to anxiety?”

Joel (00:01:10):

First of all, just so you know, you guys are not the first ones to have that same reaction. I had that same reaction. In fact, I wrestled with the Lord consistently. This is the very first book I’ve ever written: “God, this can’t be the one You want me to write. Are You kidding me?” Humility: nobody’s running around, waving the anthem of: “The humble life is what I want!”

Interesting fact: in the Greco-Roman world, the context of the New Testament—and in the Old Testament as well—humility was really a thing that was despised. Nobody valued humility. Something fascinating happens around the time of Paul. Paul begins to talk about this Man, who defeated sin and death through death itself; His name is Jesus. In Philippians 2, Paul talks about how He was humble; and He was humble enough to come onto earth and to really die for our sins and to take on the iniquity of man so that we could experience the righteousness of God. And in that, we can experience an ease to our anxiety; we can experience an ease to our suffering in a way that is unexplainable. That’s when we take on the life of Christ. “Well, what is the life of Christ?” The life of Christ is humility.

(00:02:16):

And it’s actually found in the gospel of Matthew. Jesus says, “Come to Me, all you who are weary, all you who are burdened and heavy laden. Come and follow Me”—why?—because I am gentle and humble.”

(00:02:29):

I mean, this is wild. I began to think, “Well, what is this about humility that we’re so allergic to, that we’re resistant to?” I think it’s actually part of spiritual warfare. Honestly, I think that we are being conned in our society into believing that the path to safety, strength, and security is by more power; it’s by more money; it’s more fame; more platform: “If my one video could just go viral…” “If my follower account just hit this number…” “Man, if my neighbors just paid attention to me, this would be easy.”

But what ends up happening is you never have enough money; you never have enough followers. And the more that you’re aware of what you don’t have, the more anxious you become. It’s like, “Well, what’s the antidote to this? What’s the answer to it?” The answer isn’t striving for more, because that’s going to create chaos in your heart. The answer to it is humility. And what is humility? There’s this quote by C.S. Lewis. Well, it’s actually historically attributed to C.S. Lewis—though it’s very debated now, and people think that maybe he didn’t say it—but just for the sake of it, I’m just going to say: “Maybe, C.S. Lewis said this.” The quote goes like this: “Humility isn’t thinking less of yourself; it’s just thinking of yourself less often”; which is so good.

Ann (00:03:44):

I love that quote.

Joel: I love that quote.

Ann: That’s one of my favorites.

Joel (00:03:46):

So you guys need to know.

Ann (00:03:47):

Say it again; say it slow.

Joel (00:03:48):

“Humility isn’t thinking less of yourself; it’s thinking of yourself less often.”

I want to let you guys know it’s very dangerous to disagree with C.S. Lewis. And now, I’m like, “Whoa; you guys are stressed. He’s like, ‘Is he going to…’” Ann just said, “I love…” No, no, no. I think C.S. Lewis is absolutely correct, but I think that there’s a starting spot to humility.

I want to just add that starting spot. What is the starting spot to humility? Humility is a three-part movement. It starts, first, with an awareness of who God is. Humility doesn’t start with me; humility first starts with an honest awareness of who God is. Because if I know who God is, I can know who I am. And if I know who God is, and now I know who I am, I now know how to relate to other image-bearers of God. This is the ease to the anxiety that we are looking for. Because sometimes we’re like: “I don’t know how to relate to God,” “I don’t know who I am,” “I don’t know who other people are.”

Ann (00:04:39):

—said everybody in our country, basically.

Joel (00:04:41):

Exactly! I think it’s because we get the starting spot wrong. We’re trying to figure out all these things, distanced from God. Isn’t this the sin of Eden? The serpent says, “You don’t need God; you just need the fruit of the knowledge. And if you just get the knowledge, apart from God, then you can experience all of the freedom. You will be like God.”

The insanity of that statement is they were already like God. They were the one thing in all of creation that bore the image of God. And so when the fall happens, I kind of think—well, God’s image doesn’t break—humanity breaks. The thing that was broken in us is actually retrieved through the ancient virtue of humility.

Ann (00:05:19):

That’s just a fascinating concept.

Joel, you’ve been working with Lysa TerKeurst, Proverbs 31 Ministries, how many years?

Dave (00:05:26):

How did you end up in a women’s ministry?

Joel: Oh, man; that’s a whole episode in itself.

Ann (00:05:30):

Are you the only guy there?

Ann: Because he’s humble; that’s why.

Joel: That’s it!

Joel (00:05:33):

I’m actually, when I first came onto the team at Proverbs, I think I was guy number four, or something like that. The other guys kind of messed with me; because they’re like, “We had the holy trinity already with the three of us; and now, you came in.” The guys were kind of in IT in operations. I was the first kind of non-operations person, being the theology guy.

Dave (00:05:54):

Tell us what you do there.

Joel (00:05:55):

Yeah, so at Proverbs, my title is Director of Theology and Research. They like to just call me the theologian in residence.

Ann (00:06:02):

We’ve had Lysa and she calls you “the theology guy.”

Joel (00:06:04):

Yeah, yeah; that’s exactly it. I’m your everyday average—what do they call Spider-Man?—your friendly neighborhood, Spidey. I’m your friendly neighborhood theologian. I just like to talk about nerdy stuff that we did before we even started rolling.

Ann (00:06:17):

I was just going to say, you have your doctorate. You are very well-versed in Scripture, the Bible theology. We want to talk to you all-day long, because you’re versed in so many different topics.

Joel (00:06:30):

Well, I think the Bible is fun. I think that we’ve missed just the simplicity of the Scriptures. The Scriptures is our story. That’s the thing that actually got me into Proverbs. I remember I was sitting in a conversation with Lysa. I used to work for a Bible software company, which is how Lysa and I first met. Lysa began to unravel/kind of this unveil this vision. She said, “Joel, I believe that we really have an issue of biblical literacy.” She called it “biblical poverty.” She said, “My heart, my mission, my vision, and what we’re doing at Proverbs, is to eradicate biblical poverty. The idea is more people have access to the Bible than ever before; and yet, the ability to understand what the Bible actually means on its own terms seems to be escaping so many of us.”

I remember there’s a story in Luke, Chapter 24, where Jesus is on the road to Emmaus with these two guys. There’s a moment He sits down and He breaks the bread, and their hearts burn alive. For me, that was my heart burn-alive moment. I was like,—

Ann (00:07:22):

Really?

Joel (00:07:22):

Here’s this woman who is—by the way, one of the best Bible teachers, if not the best Bible teacher—

Ann: She’s phenomenal.

Joel: I’m obviously very biased; she’s like my spiritual big sister—but literally, just phenomenal—and she begins to articulate this. I’m like, “I didn’t even know I had words to express this feeling in my heart.” I’m like, “This is what I want to give my life to. I want to give my life to showing people the depth and the beauty of God’s Word because it’s beautiful; and it’s applicable; and it honestly can change our lives if we just trust it.”

Ann (00:07:51):

It does change our lives.

Joel (00:07:53):

And that was my journey to Proverbs. Along the way, I ended up earning a PhD in biblical theology.

Dave (00:08:00):

—while raising boys.

Ann (00:08:01):

Three boys and a daughter.

Joel: We were also in COVID. You guys, two weeks before COVID hit, we had, on Valentine’s Day, our baby girl, Emelia Jane Muddamalle. I nicknamed her MJ after the greatest basketball player of all time.

Ann: That’s awesome.

Dave: After LeBron, what are you talking about?

Joel: Now, I could walk away right now. That is spiritual warfare right there! I just want you to know—

Dave (00:08:24):

Actually, I’m more of a Kobe guy actually, but—

Joel (00:08:26):

Hey, and I’m okay with that. Kobe’s kind of like 1B to Jordan’s 1A.

Dave: He is; he is.

Ann (00:08:32):

You’re a total Jordan guy.

Dave (00:08:34):

It’s MJ. It’s EMJ, right?

Joel: It’s EMJ.

Ann: That’s so cute.

Joel: I love it; she loves it.

Dave: Does she have a poster in her room?

Joel: Does she have a poster?

Dave: You have one. Now, some people might call this idolatry. I don’t think it’s idolatry, but I do have pictures in my office of the greatest to ever play.

Dave (00:08:51):

I mean, you’re from Chicago, too, right?

Joel (00:08:52):

Yes, born and raised.

Dave: Oh, there you go.

Joel: There’s a story behind it. My parents immigrated from India, and so I’m a child of immigrant parents. I was born in the Chicagoland area.

Dave (00:09:01):

Oh, wow.

Joel (00:09:01):

I watched Jordan win the three-peat. I cried when he retired.

Dave (00:09:04):

But you also watched the Pistons, the Bad Boys.

Joel (00:09:07):

For a couple of years. For a couple of years I saw them literally try to murder Michael. I saw that. Yeah, that was not cool.

Dave: yes, they did. And they walked off the court.

Joel: I saw the whole thing.

Ann (00:09:16):

As we share stories of God’s faithfulness, remember that your generosity helps make this possible. When you give to FamilyLife, your partnership helps more homes experience hope and joy in Jesus. Visit FamilyLifeToday.com, or call 800-FL-TODAY to join us and make an impact. Okay—

Dave: We really want you to give.

Ann: Let’s get back to the conversation.

Dave: We really need you to give.

Ann: You love God’s Word; were you brought up in a Christian family?

Joel (00:09:52):

This is, once again, a unique story. My grandparents are actually missionaries in India.

Ann: Really?

Joel: I was just in India with my entire family for two and a half weeks. I’ve been there multiple times. This is the first time ever that my kids and my whole family own there. My wife was white, and my kids are biracial. It was a really cool moment to go back to some of the roots. My grandparents have been doing ministry in rural villages in India for over 60 years. Kind of unique for an Indian kid to grow up with the story of Jesus around him. Grew up in Chicago, but like most kids who grew up in that area, my dream was, really: “I’m going to become a lawyer. I’m going to make a lot of money. I’m going to live the American dream, and I’m going to throw a little bit back to ministry and to Jesus.”

I had a youth pastor who just would not leave me alone. I think those are the best youth pastors, by the way—the ones who see something nobody else kind of sees but just won’t leave—he, Rick Markham, just would not leave me alone.

Ann (00:10:47):

What do you mean by that? What did he do?

Joel (00:10:50):

He wouldn’t let me settle for sitting behind the scenes on stuff. He would put me in positions and opportunities to lead as a student leader. He called me on the carpet. I think we live in an age that’s, once again, allergic to accountability. Ricky held me accountable. I led worship, and I had to be prepared—if I wasn’t, I wasn’t leading—just stuff like that.

He taught me the story of Jesus. He was about the Scriptures; and he introduced me to the Jesus of the Bible, not a Jesus in his own imagination or making. That was so significant for me. I kind of had this moment, at a student conference, when I was a junior in high school, where I don’t remember the pastor; I don’t remember who he was. Literally—this is so wild—I just remember the statement: “The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Some of you are being called into full-time ministry.”

As a junior, I just found myself getting up, walking to the front. Now, listen; everybody was like, “Was he doing drugs or something?” That was not who I was; I didn’t—

Ann(00:11:52):

You had your plan.

Joel: I had my plan. And so it was truly a God-thing. That was the beginning of that journey. My grandparents were so ecstatic. My mom was nervous, I think; but also happy that I was following—

Dave (00:12:04):

It’s interesting when you say what Ricky did in your life. I’m sitting here, thinking, “FamilyLife: we’re sitting here talking to them about marriage and family. That’s what we’re called to do, as moms and dads—all those same things—see it in your son or daughter: ‘Call it out. Hold them accountable; give them opportunities; fan the flame.’”

Ann (00:12:21):

But also, as they become teenagers, to expose them to people like Ricky who are saying the same things that you are as a parent. But now, there’s something different when you’re a teenager, like, “Man, this youth guy really sees something in me.”

Joel (00:12:34):

I’ve got a 14-year-old; this is happening right now. Listen, I speak at youth camps; I do this stuff. We send our kids to youth camp. My oldest son comes back; he’s like, “Dad, you’ll never believe…” He starts to talk about what Pastor Clayton talked about. I’m like, “Liam, I literally said that to you the exact same way.” I might have said it better, but I mean, I wrote a book on humility. I was very prideful; I’m sorry. This is just, I’m like, “Now you get it?!” I’m like, “Yeah, of course, now he gets it;”—because to your point—”he needs to hear it from different people, that God’s wired in different ways.” I’m just so grateful for what you guys do here, at FamilyLife, because it really matters.

Dave (00:13:12):

So what’s the hidden peace?

Ann (00:13:14):

Yeah, because the book is called The Hidden Peace—P-E-A-C-E.

Dave (00:13:18):

Finding True Security—you got to talk about that—Strength and Confidence Through Humility. Again, there it is: “Through what?!”

Joel (00:13:26):

So the hidden peace is humility. You think it’s the hidden peace; well, the peace is hiding. The reason why the peace is hiding is because humility is absent. I think so many of us—if I were to ask you guys, “What does it mean to be human?”—I think we all would be like, “Oh…” You’d kind of come up with some answers. But the more we start to talk about it, it kind of becomes a little bit convoluted and complex. And it’s like humanity is a really interesting thing; because in one way, humans are just amazing. And then, in other ways, we’re like, “Man, humans are a mess.” It’s like, “Well, how do we get to this place of peace? How do we get to this place of authentic living that isn’t harmful to other people?”

I think it’s actually the origin story of Eden. This is the hidden peace of it—the origin story of humanity is actually a story of humility—so if I could do a little bit of poetic play with—

Ann: Yes, take us there.

Joel: —Genesis,

Dave (00:14:22):

Do it; because what you just said, I don’t think I’ve ever heard: “The origin story is a story of humility.” I’ve been to seminary; I’ve studied it. I don’t remember, ever, a professor saying that.

Joel (00:14:32):

Yeah, yeah. If you think about the story of—Eden is on a mountain; very important detail—the river’s run down—

Ann (00:14:39):

Wait, wait; it’s on a mountain? How do we know it’s on a mountain?!

Joel (00:14:42):

The topography of Genesis 1 lets you know that it’s on a mountain because the rivers run up and down out of it. In the ancient near-eastern world, kings planted gardens on mountains. It was the safest, most secure place. And this was the place, in the ancient world, that mountain tops—

Ann (00:14:58):

Have you ever heard that?

Dave: I’ve never heard that.

Ann: We both have been to seminary. See! We’re learning some stuff today.

Joel (00:15:03):

It’s actually a really interesting detail. When you see that—by the way, when you see that little detail—if you think about what takes place on mountains throughout the story of Scripture, your mind is going to be blown. Eden is on a mountain; the new Jerusalem is referred to as “a city on a mountain,” “a city on a hill”, “the royal city, which is on a mountain.” You’ve got Mount Sinai, which is where God… You’ve got Genesis 6 with Mount Hermon, the Sinai tradition with the sons of God and the Nephilim. I’m not going to get into all that; we’ll have a whole different episode about that.

Dave (00:15:33):

We’re bringing you back for that.

Joel (00:15:34):

That’s right. You’ve got the Mount of Transfiguration, and you have—fascinating—Jesus on Skull Mountain, Golgotha; and He dies. And then, by the way, where is the garden tomb? The garden tomb is in a garden on top of a mountain, on a hillside, which is fascinating. You’ve got this theme of the mountain kind of going all the way through.

But the origin story of humanity—back to that—is you’ve got this High King of heaven who comes low. This is why the mountain-thing matters. It says that God created Adam from the dust of the ground/humanity from the dust of the ground. The Hebrew word for humanity is “Adam.” And the Hebrew word for soil is adamah. There’s a poetic wordplay that’s here: humanity’s origin story is a story of soil. We come in, and here’s this High King of heaven who comes down; it feels like almost on bended knee. This is so wild to think that this King of heaven and earth would get His hands dirty, literally, to create—everything else He creates He speaks it—

Ann (00:16:33):

He speaks it. But now, He’s getting his hands dirty. I’ve never thought of that.

Joel (00:16:36):

And then, He forms man; wild. And then, He brings man alive—how?—by giving His breath to humanity to make him alive. And then, it says that God places them, Adam and Eve—the way the Genesis 1 and 2 is kind of macro-micro, in my opinion; it’s giving us a big picture; and then, a lasered-in picture of what’s taking place—and places them in Eden. Well, where’s Eden?—on a mountaintop. He puts them there.

Think about this: the origin story of humanity is a story of humility: because they are down low, and they’re formed in the soil. In Latin—the Latin word for soil is “humus”—this is where we actually get the English word, “humility,” from. And so you have the combination of humus, which is soil; and adama, which is soil that comes from humanity. You see this connection with the word play that’s actually there. And what does God do? God doesn’t just make Adam and Eve or Adam from the soil and leaves him down there. He lifts him up and exalts him and puts him in his royal garden in Eden.

Ann (00:17:35):

Does it say that? Does it say He lifts him up?

Joel (00:17:37):

He puts them.

Ann: Puts them; that’s the word.

Joel: Puts is actually a geographical direction to it, where He’s lifting and putting; because He has to place them in a spot, which is on top of Mount Eden.

Dave (00:17:49):

I mean, that description is so beautiful. I’ve never heard it said like that. I’ve never seen a painting of that. An artist should—

Ann (00:18:00):

—God stooping down to create.

Dave (00:18:02):

The humility of hands and the dirt, creating breath in the lungs; wow!

Joel (00:18:06):

Think about what Jesus does. Jesus is the High King of heaven who comes low in the incarnation; and then, He lives a perfect life. And then, He’s lifted high on a cross! It’s on the cross that He defeats sin and death through death itself so that we can return to our rightful place with the Lord Himself.

This is where I say, “The origin story of humanity is humility.” How is humility destroyed? This is what the serpent suggests in Eden: “You can exchange your God-given humility”—which is/think about what Adam and Eve are doing in Eden: they’re walking in the presence of God. They know God; they know themselves because they know who God is and they know how to relate to each other because they know who God is. They know who they are, and they know how they’re right—this is the definition of humility. What does the serpent do?—“Hey, you see the fruit; go ahead and take it. Take it; eat it.” Adam and Eve fall into sin because they eat together. By the way, Adam is like a stone’s throw away. It’s not like homeboy didn’t know what was going on; he was absolutely right there.

Ann (00:19:04):

Oh, I’m always picturing him right beside; was he?

Joel (00:19:06):

There’s a close proximity there; absolutely. He’s aware.

Ann (00:19:11):

He knows what’s going on.

Joel (00:19:11):

He knows what’s going on. There’s a bit of dereliction of duty that’s actually happening here.

Dave (00:19:15):

There’s a passivity.

Joel (00:19:16):

There’s passivity, absolutely, of man. You should have stepped up, and said, “Wait a minute.” This is a joke, but also very serious. I kind of wonder what would’ve happened if Adam and Eve were like, “Serpent, so interesting. Hey, by the way, at the cool of the day, every day God comes down; and He goes on a walk with us.”

Ann (00:19:35):

“We walk with Him.”

Joel (00:19:36):

Yeah, “Hey, just hang out. It’s getting cooler.

Dave: “He’ll be here any minute.”

Joel: “He’ll be here any minute. Let’s talk to Him about this.” You know what the serpent is going to do?—run for his life!—that’s what he’s going to do.This is the deception—this is what sin does—sin is separating us from God, separating us from each other and separating us from ourselves. Sin is actually making us animalistic in nature, not giving us our true humanity. The path back to humanity is humility. This is how we regain our true humanity because it’s in humility where we look and go, “We’re in desperate need of a Rescuer.”

This is Jesus. It’s in humility that we go, “Well, man, we really need to grow in the spiritual disciplines—the spiritual fruit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, thankfulness. It’s like: “Oh, that’s returning to who I am actually.” “Oh, wait; we need to exercise those things with other image-bearers of God.” The result is going to be peace; the result is going to be strength that doesn’t come from you, but you’re receiving from God; this is Ephesians 6. The result is a type of confidence that is so freeing—because you know what you can do, and you’re also aware of what you cannot do—that is maybe the most spiritual thing you could ever say is: “I don’t know.” I’m learning that with my kids: “Guys, great question; I honestly don’t know. Let’s figure it out together.” I think that’s actually what God is doing in Eden—inviting Adam and Eve—”Let’s do this together.”

Dave (00:21:01):

In your opinion, how involved is Satan today in our struggle with pride and humility or any area? We look at that passage of Genesis; and some good churchgoing people are like, “That maybe did happen there; but today, it’s not as prevalent as it was then.”

Joel (00:21:23):

Yeah, so here’s a little teaser. The next book—I know we’re talking about The Hidden Peace—but the next book that’s coming out is called The Unseen Battle; it’s on spiritual warfare, so really unpacks some of this in more detail. I’ll give you a little teaser about that.

Essentially, my view is: one, we have to retrieve a theological understanding of who the serpent is. Sometimes, there’s this thought of the Asian ying yang, you’ve got these two and it’s kind of around each. And that’s not a good biblical theological view. You have God; that’s it! And then, you have these created beings whom God Himself created who are spiritual beings who went into rebellion against God. As a result of that, only God is omniscient, He’s all-knowing; omnipotent, He’s all-powerful; He’s omnipresent, He’s in all places at all times. We have to be careful that we don’t presume that the serpent/that the devil can be in all places at all times.

Ann (00:22:20):

There’s no way; never has been an equal with God.

Joel (00:22:24):

That’s right; that’s right. And the enemy is absolutely working. And so the question is: “How does the enemy work?” For me, it’s like, “Well, how does the enemy work?” The enemy is working today in systems and structures by eliciting the vices of the flesh. Paul, in Galatians, Chapter 5, talks about the fruit of the Spirit; but then, he contrasts it with the vices of the flesh. The vices of the flesh are these things that are so inward; they are looking to satisfy ourselves. But if you actually look at them—back to that idea of humanity—it promises you that you’re going to be the most human you’re ever going to be/the truest human, but the outcome is actually animalistic.

Let me give a couple examples. There’s a reason why pornography is such a significant multi-billion dollar industry today. If we think that there is not spiritual warfare, we’re blind to that. What is pornography suggesting? [What] FamilyLife Today [explains]: Pornography is suggesting that I can experience intimacy in my own control, in my own way.

Ann (00:23:25):

—and fulfillment.

Joel (00:23:26):

—and fulfillment. It’s ultimately selfish. For a husband or for a wife—the stats are actually showing that there is a significant rise in pornography usage amongst women in these days—and so it’s like: “Well, look at how the enemy is working. It’s providing counterfeit vices in order to undermine the beauty of what God always intended. God wanted us to experience the beauty of sex in the context of covenant marriage between a husband and a wife, who are committed to each other. Look what the enemy is doing. The enemy is like, ‘Well, by the way, you can just…’; and the outcome of that is addiction. It’s a gateway drug to all kinds of foolishness; it’s going to create havoc inside of your family. The amount of percentage that shows that a person who’s addicted to pornography that then goes on to have an affair of some kind/adultery of some kind is significant.”

Ann (00:24:19):

It creates a wall between us, where God created us to be one.

Joel (00:24:22):

—and it creates objectification. That’s the other significant one. Even with my kids, I’m trying to point out: “Hey, there’s a difference between looking at something—and saying, ‘Oh, man; that thing is so beautiful; great’; and moving on—from them looking at: ‘I need to have it; I’m obsessed with it.’” There’s this thing that happens in Scripture: see, take, and desire. When those three Hebrew words—see, desire, and take—occur together, it’s always bad. Eve sees the fruit; she desires the fruit; and she takes it.

Ann (00:24:56):

Well, I pulled up Genesis 3, just to look at that conversation. So many of you have already heard this: “The serpent says to Eve, ‘Did God really say you must not eat from any tree in the garden?’ The woman said to the serpent, ‘We may eat from the trees in the garden; but God did say, “You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.”’ And the serpent says, ‘You will certainly not die.’ He said to the woman, ‘For God knows that when you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.’” Take us there; explain that.

Joel (00:25:38):

One of the questions always is: “Why in the world is this tree even in the middle, in the first place?”; right?

Ann (00:25:44):

Yes; because the tree of life is there as well.

Joel (00:25:47):

That’s right. You guys are taking me all kinds of fun places; I love this. This is a conversation of the theology study day with Lysa at Proverbs 31 Ministries, just so you guys know. We’ve actually studied this before, specifically there’s a great Old Testament scholar. His name’s Gordon Wenham. And so I’m kind of pulling from Wenham’s research on the issue of the tree of knowledge. In my view, is it wasn’t intended to be a never; it was a not yet. So the true knowledge wasn’t necessarily a never; it was a not yet. The thing is that Adam and Eve were going to grow in knowledge; they were going to grow in wisdom underneath the supervision and the care and the shadow of Yahweh—

Ann (00:26:27):

Interesting.

Joel (00:26:27):

—of God—who was going to walk [with them]; because this—

Ann (00:26:29):

He’s going to grow them.

Joel (00:26:30):

Yes! It’s like my kids—we just talked about this with House of David—I love the show/the series.

Ann (00:26:38):

Wait, you just said House of David.

Joel: Yes.

Ann: Explain what you’re doing with House of David, which is a series.

Joel (00:26:43):

It’s a mini-series on Amazon Prime. I just joined the team at Wonder Project to be a part of what’s called their Faith Council. It’s a group of 12 of us. I’m going to specifically help to bring some theological scholarly feedback and insight into the different projects that they work on. The one that I’m probably the most excited about, that I can say publicly right now, is House of David. I’m just really excited about it.

We were even talking about House of David; House of David has some scenes in it that I think my teenage kids love. Actually, I don’t think—I know—my boys, Liam, Levi, and Luke man love the scene of the Amalekite king. They’re like, “This feels like Lord of the Rings, Dad. I love this!”

Ann (00:27:22):

That’s true.

Joel (00:27:23):

Hey, my five-year-old Emmie, saw that Amalekite king; and she said, “Peace; I’m out.”

Ann: Oh, peace?—creepy and scary.

Joel: Right!

There’s wisdom in the process, where we can kind of look, and say, “Oh, here’s knowledge.” That knowledge—of how it is received and learned matters—it’s appropriate in this season for Liam, Levi, and Luke. This isn’t good for Emmie right now. We make a decision to remove her from that: “We can watch something else, and we’ll watch a different time.”

Dave (00:27:55):

“But later,—

Joel (00:27:56):

“But later, when you grow/when you are able to receive it…”

Notice what the serpent—the serpent’s like, “No, you don’t need to wait. You can get it all.” I actually think they’re overwhelmed with it, because they haven’t learned underneath the guidance of the Lord.

The other interesting thing about the tree is—and you pointed it out, Ann—is it’s in the middle. What’s fascinating is the text also says the tree of life is in the middle. So which one is at the center? They both are at the center; it’s ambiguous. I actually think this is a philosophical question that you and I are presented with today. This is also a question of humility. The question is: “What do you choose? Do you choose personal knowledge that you can own for your own gratitude, your own selfish ambition and vain conceit? Or do you choose life with God?”

Ann (00:28:43):

Yes.

Joel (00:28:44):

This is what we’re being presented, day in and day out.

Ann: —every second of every day.

Dave: —every decision.

Joel: Humility is the path that reminds us: “I need God.” And guess what? “When I’m with God, I’m going to get the knowledge that I need.”

Dave (00:28:57):

And it may not be right now.

Joel (00:28:58):

And it may not be, but that’s for our good; that’s for benefit. The serpent suggests you don’t have to wait. Sin is a series of shortcuts. Sin is just a series of shortcuts that undermine our humanity.

Ann (00:29:11):

What would’ve happened had they eaten from the tree of life?

Joel (00:29:14):

So there’s a lot of debate, a lot of conversation, of Old Testament scholars about what that was. What we know for a fact—what Genesis 3 tells us, without a shadow of a doubt—is that the tree of life: if they ate after they ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and sin enters into the world, the tree of life would’ve left them—now, think about this conceptually—in an eternal state of separation from God. What’s another word for that?—hell.

Ann (00:29:42):

I just taught my grandkids this whole concept, because of the cherubim guarding the garden of Eden. I used to think, “That’s so mean that He wouldn’t let them back in.” No, they [cherubim] were protecting them from eating from the tree of life.

Joel (00:29:57):

It’s a momentary punishment because there is a long-term promise that’s on the way. This is back to Genesis 3, that the serpent in fact will strike at the heel of the seed of the woman; but the heel is going to crush the serpent. It’s actually out of great love that the Lord says, “This is too much of a risk.” He was unwilling to risk that His children would live in an eternal state of separation, and so He takes Eden away.

Now, fascinating thing—I’m obsessed with Eden—this is Lysa TerKeurst’s fault. Lysa, if you’re listening, this is thanks to you. I’d never thought as much about Eden until ten years ago when I met Lysa; she always brings me back here. And the thing about Eden is: Eden leaves as a garden; but in Revelation, it returns, no longer as a garden, but as a garden city; which is like, “How does a garden turn into a garden city?”—unless there’s work to be done, unless there’s movement, unless there—and it’s like, “This is how good the Lord is,”—the Lord isn’t just blowing it all up and starting brand new. Even the earth after the flood, you still see trees; the origin of creation still comes back.

(00:31:04):

This isn’t about removing it and starting something. It’s actually about the renewal and restoration of heaven and earth.

We see that with the Garden of Eden, which is a garden city.

Ann (00:31:13):

But every day we’re faced with that decision:—

Joel (00:31:16):

—a hundred percent.

Ann (00:31:16):

—”Will I choose life with God, or will I choose my own advancement and pleasure?”

Joel: That’s right.

Dave (00:31:22):

And in some ways, you tell me: “Will I choose pride or humility?”

Joel (00:31:27):

Yes; yes, a hundred percent. I think I would say that the pride and humility is the fuel that makes that decision. We all have to have fuel that drives us. John Stott has this incredible quote; I paraphrased it and kind of changed it up, The way that I say it is: “If honesty and humility go together, then pride and insanity go together as well.” “If honesty and humility go together,”—which they do—”pride and insanity will go together as well.” Pride is like: “It doesn’t matter what the cost is. I want what I want when I want it.”

The way that I see humility is three things: I see humility as a protection, a prevention, and a preservation. Humility protects us from thinking too low of ourselves because we ought to never forget that we’re children of God, made in His likeness and image.

Ann (00:32:20):

So to say: “I’m nothing,” “I’m nobody,”—that’s going against what God’s saying.

Joel (00:32:25):

Let me—my daughter Emmie came to me the other day—she’s got this curly hair, beautiful curly hair—so curly, we got to do the silk covers, the whole nine yards. Her hair is so curly; we don’t even know really how long it is. She got out of the shower the other day—down to her waist—we’re like, “That’s so cute.”

She came into my office the other day; and she goes, “Daddy, I’m not pretty; I’m not pretty. I don’t have straight hair like all the other girls.” What’s so interesting is: one, my heart hurt; but second, I was offended; I was offended on behalf of my daughter: “She can’t say that; that’s not the worldview she should have about herself.” I want us to think about our heavenly Father: “How does He think about us?” I think there’s a holy offense that He kind of has: “Wait a minute. No, I’ve made them in my likeness and my image. They’re my royal children.” So to say that you’re nothing is actually to say something, in a way, about God Himself. So we wouldn’t want to do that.

Dave (00:33:23):

That’s not humility, to say, “I’m nothing.”

Joel: No, that’s deprecation.

Ann (00:33:27):

Think about the power of our words of that—even in a marriage—when we belittle, and nag, and see all the negative in our spouse; probably makes God sad: “That’s not how I see him. I’ve put you in his life to lift him up, and to remind him of what I see in him.” And yet, the enemy just clouds our vision.

Dave (00:33:48):

She’s just talking about our marriage; that’s all she’s doing for 20 years. She just wrote a book on that: How to Speak Life to Your Husband: When All You Want to Do Is Yell at Him. Your wife needs that, right?

Joel (00:34:01):

I’m kidding, Britt.

Dave (00:34:02):

I mean, there was a time where that’s what happened in our marriage; it was more critique: “I want you to be this,” and “I thought you were this,” rather than, “Oh, my goodness, look at the greatness in my spouse.”

Now, there’s things that we got to speak truth about; but there’s also greatness that God/they’re image-bearers.

Ann (00:34:21):

I love the illustration with your daughter; because as a father, you are offended: “What in the world?!” We do that with our kids: “Are you kidding me?!”

Joel (00:34:30):

Instantly, I thought, “Who said that to you? You didn’t just come up with it. What little knucklehead kid said that to you? We’re calling their parents right now.”

Ann (00:34:36):

And so when you said that to her, you said back—I should ask—”What did you say back?”

Joel (00:34:43):

I said, “Oh, baby girl. No, no, no, no; you’re not ugly.” I said, “Look at how beautiful these curls are. I love…”; and I just want overboard, honestly. It’s not overboard; it’s just honest: “I love the way that your hair curls,” and “I love the shape it takes when it bounces on your shoulders,” and “Em, did you know that there’s not many people that actually have this kind of hair? How special that God would give you this gift,” and also, “Em, did you know that your Nama—which is the word for grandmother—has this exact same hair? Don’t you love Nama?” And she goes, “Yeah, I love Nama.” I’m like, “Well, baby, you have the same. Isn’t that so amazing that God…”

Actually, it was a friend, Dr. Paul Tripp—I don’t know if you guys know who Paul Tripp is—I did an event with Paul years, and years, and years ago. I was like, “Paul, I’m trying to figure out how to just communicate the goodness of God to my kids.” They were much younger. Paul gave me this advice I’ll never forget, and I implemented everything that I do now with my kids.

(00:35:37):

He goes, “Joel, what do your kids like to do?” At that time, Liam loved playing basketball. I said Liam was playing basketball. He goes, “Next time you play ball with him, just stop and go: ‘Liam, isn’t it wild how God would give us the creative thought to even think to take a ball and put it through,’ and ‘Think about this circular thing, how our hand can bend,’—just go through the motion and connect the everyday thing that we just assume and point it to the goodness of who God is in His creative brilliance.”

That’s the thing I want to do with my daughter; that’s the thing I want to connect: “This isn’t random; this isn’t some holy roll of the dice—you just happen to have curly hair—there’s a God who’s intentional about this in some way. It’s actually a reflection of your grandmother; it’s a reflection of me; it’s a reflection of your mom.”

Ann (00:36:24):

Because the world is trying to shape her into their image and their own story of who she is. As parents, to remind them: “This is who you are. This is who God says you are. This is a legacy that’s been passed to you.” It’s the [world’s view] opposite of what you’re talking about in terms of the humility; it’s being able to see who you are in God’s eyes.

Joel (00:36:51):

Yeah, it’s a protection.

Two more things. Second one is: it’s a prevention. Humility prevents you from thinking too high of yourself. There’s a counterbalance here. The way that I would say it is: “At times, we can view our relationships as if we’re playing chess. The other people in our life are all pawns, and we’re happy to sacrifice them whenever we want. What humility does is it’s actually a prevention. It prevents us from thinking too high of ourselves because, when we look at other people, we are forced to see other image-bearers of God/other children of God.”

(00:37:23):

And the last one is: it’s a preservation. It preserves us in the faithful hands of Jesus—and that is the safest—this is the whole peace and the resolved anxiety. It’s not that you’re never going to feel anxiety, and it’s not that there’s not going to be anxious moments in your life. That’s just not true. But what it does mean is that, in those moments, you’re reminded of the faithful hand-pierced hands of Jesus that hold you, and preserve you, and keep you in and through it.

I think that’s really the power of humility and why I think that this isn’t a message that is one that we checklist and move on from. I really truly believe that humility is the soil of the Christian life. It’s the place from which we live from. It goes back to that origin story. And the more that we can be rooted in the humility of Christ, I think the more beautiful we’ll see our own life and the life of others; and will create beauty in the world as well.

Dave (00:38:19):

I mean, how do you balance the attribute of humility with confidence? You want to be confident. I was a college quarterback, so there’s no way I want to walk in a huddle and exude humility. I got to inspire ten other guys to believe. I remember my mentor said, “You call a play; they got a sense you believe this play.” There were times, literally, I’d say to my offensive lineman in the game, “Guys, you give me one extra second—touchdown; guarantee it—give me one.” They’d look at me, like, “You got it!”

Joel (00:38:55):

When you said, “you,” did you mean one person? Are you only looking at the center or are you looking at the offensive tackle? What do you mean by “you”?

Dave: I’m looking at the whole huddle.

Joel: So you’re actually saying second person, plural. This is fascinating; I’m such a nerd. You’re actually saying “you all”, “y’all.” Just so you know, Paul is southern boy. Paul often—when he says “you” in his epistles, he’s actually saying “y’all”—he’s saying, “You all.”

You actually answered the question; I think it’s so brilliant. I wish I could go back and do an addition of this because I want to quote you; I want to add it in a chapter in this book. There’s a chapter where I talk about hidden pride. And the difference between pride and confidence is actually the exchange of the “I” versus the “we.”

Ann (00:39:36):

Oh, that’s interesting.

Joel (00:39:39):

Paul, when he’s talking about the fruit of the Spirit—this is so devastating—I think this is the one thing, as I was researching what all my theologists say for the hidden pride that this—the hidden peace—this destroyed me because it exposed my own darkness, my own heart. I just say that from a place of like, “Whew, this really messed with me. I didn’t want to write it. I was like, ‘This is putting my whole life out on; this is really hard.’”

Paul talks about the fruit of the Spirit. We’ve talked about Galatians, Chapter 5: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness… I want to give a little example. Imagine your favorite fruit, whatever your favorite fruit is. I’m Indian; do y’all know that I’m Indian?

Ann (00:40:13):

No, I didn’t know that.

Joel (00:40:15):

I’m Indian. We love mangoes; mangoes are a great thing. I’m going to pick mango for my illustration. You got this mango—it’s amazing, and it looks so great from the outside—and you start digging into this mango; it’s so good. And then, you get to the very center; and you’re like, “It’s rotten. There’s a worm through.” What does that mean for the rest of the mango that I just ate? In some way, it was contaminated by that thing that was ruined on the inside. Hidden pride is just like that. What’s so devastating about hidden pride is that hidden pride often presents itself as the fruit of the Spirit.

(00:40:46):

This is devastating because—here we are, Christians; here, we’re as moms and dads, and people in our family: sons and daughters—“Well, no, I’m love,” “… joy,”—I’m doing all those things. Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, and you are doing it—but the aim and the ambition—of the why?—that you’re doing it is corrupt on the inside.

The question we’re asking is—that I versus the we—the “I,” you’re actually leveraging the fruit of the Spirit in a way for selfish ambition: “I’m happy to love,” “I’m happy to have joy,” “I’m happy to have all of that as long as I get what I want,”—there’s a contingency clause that’s built into it. The way that Paul talks about for the Spirit, the fruit of the Spirit is always outward and upward. It’s always outward for the edification of God’s people and upward for the glorification of God. But hidden pride is always inward and inward; it’s always for my own edification, and it’s actually always for my own glorification. In the same way that you go into that huddle, and you’re talking to these guys, and you’re saying there’s a part of confidence, which is saying, “No, no, no; I have a part to play.” And there’s a part of that: “And all of you need to play your part too, or this whole thing falls apart. Center, you don’t snap it; right tackle, you don’t block, the block scheme goes out the side. We all have to…”

Ann (00:42:05):

You can’t do it apart from one another.

Joel (00:42:06):

That’s a hundred percent. And this is what Paul is trying to teach us throughout the Scriptures. And this is why humility is so important for us. It helps us to be honest about the areas that we can be confident: “Man, I’ve hit that throw a thousand times in practice; I can hit that throw today. I just need all of y’all to do your job. We can do this thing.” You see—“I” versus “we.”

Dave (00:42:26):

The question is: Sometimes, you think confidence—which what I was going to say—sometimes, you think confidence is pride. After I became a follower of Christ in college, I went from playing football as a non-believer to a believer. I realized my confidence really was Christ in me. The gifts I had, the scholarship—everything—was a gift; so it wasn’t prideful anymore; it was humble.

Ann (00:42:55):

It used to be—

Dave (00:42:56):

—used be, totally.

Ann (00:42:57):

—because it was all about you.

Dave (00:42:58):

But I think sometimes, even as a husband or a dad, we’re called to lead the huddle that we’re leading in our home. We want to do that with strength. You talk about finding true strength. I think, sometimes guys think, “True strength isn’t humble—it’s prideful, and that’s a good thing,”—and you’re saying, “No, no, no; it’s actually/the foundation’s a humble thing.”

Joel (00:43:20):

Yes; it’s a confidence that’s rooted in honesty; it’s rooted in truth. It has, like I said, an aim and ambition. The aim and ambition isn’t self-glorification—it’s the good of all people, which is the essence of the gospel—the gospel is good news, not just for me, myself and I; it’s the good news for all of us.

Ann (00:43:38):

Why did this whole concept—you said it like “broke you”—was it convicting?

Joel (00:43:44):

A hundred percent. I write about it in the book basically around the time that I’m researching this. I’m like, “Wait a minute; I have this idea.” There was a thing that happened where I had an opportunity to be this interim pastor for a church. I thought, in my view, I’m like, “Man, I do all the checklists. I don’t even want to be a senior pastor, ever; that’s not my jam. But interim—come in, preach on a weekly basis—I can crush that. I feel real confident with that.”

It kind of fell apart. Everything looked great; it looked like I was going to do it. I even had this sermon series planned as they were doing their search committee for their new person. I just got this awkward call—it’s like a breakup with a girlfriend in high school—”It’s not you; it’s me,”—that’s what it kind of felt like. I was like, “Okay.” At the moment, I was like, “I’m fine. This is actually good. I’ve got writing projects; this is going to give me time.”

Ann (00:44:36):

So the call was what?

Joel (00:44:37):

It was: “We’re not going with you; you’re not the interim guy.” And so that’s where it felt like a breakup.

Dave (00:44:42):

It was the breakup.

Joel (00:44:42):

That was the breakup idea.

Ann: I figured, but I wanted make sure.

Joel: Yeah. But in that moment, I’m like, “I’m fine. This is all good; fine.” And so now months—like a month or so passes—I see online somebody posted and they basically are like, “Man, I’m so excited. I’m the new interim for this church.” This is hidden pride in my heart; I go, “Well, there’s nothing special about that dude. He’s good—

Ann: —” but I’m way better.”

Joel: And everything was fine; I thought everything was fine. I have a friend, who is a very close friend of mine—knows me very well—and he called me; he said, “Hey, man, I just saw the message. How are you doing?” “Fine.” “No, no, no; how are you actually doing?” I was like, “Man…”—I just went as honest as I possibly could.

(00:45:36):

And the things that I was saying in my heart at the time were things like, “Well, no, that’s the right fit for that person at the right time. God had something better for me.” “ No, this is actually going to work out; I’ve got more.” You see, I had used the virtues—I’d used the fruit of the Spirit in a way—but really, internally in my own heart, it was all about my own ambition. It was all about my own vain conceit; it was about how I could glorify myself. The Lord just exposed it; it was like, “Nah, that’s hidden pride; and you’re presenting it as everything’s fine; everything’s good.”

Ann (00:46:09):

How do we notice the hidden pride in ourselves?

Joel (00:46:12):

Yeah. This is so hard because the Scriptures often say that in the Psalms; the heart is deceptive amongst all things. In the Hebrew, the heart, we think of the heart and mind separated. The mind is the place of intellect; the heart is the place of emotion. The Hebrews understood the heart is the place of the seat of both volition and emotion. That’s the center of it. This is why it’s in the heart is so deceitful.

One is: sometimes, you can’t see your own blind spots; that’s why it’s called a blind spot. So you need to have some people in your life who love Jesus more than they love you—I said it exactly how I wanted to say it—they love Jesus more than they love you. I’ve got a group of friends—actually, in the back, in the dedication, acknowledgements is to a group of guys who are called—you guys are going to laugh—it’s called “To the Chicago boyz”—B-O-Y-Z—it’s our group chat. We’re actually in fantasy football season right now. I won our first game last week.

Dave (00:47:05):

Alright; I want to know right now.

Joel (00:47:07):

Derek Henry did it for us. Thank you. Me too! Thank you, Derek Henry.

Dave: Oh, man, he did a big one.

Joel: These guys—let tell you—they’re so unimpressed with me. We grew up together; we came up together—a bunch of them are all Indians—parents, all immigrants. We literally came up together, and they’re so unimpressed with me. When this book came out, they started to call me the next day, like, “Man, you okay?” I was like, “Why?” He’s like, “Who in their right mind would buy a book from you?”—so unimpressed.

But it’s so good for my soul. It’s so good for me to have some people who are so unimpressed with me—but know me, really know me in the way that I’m wired—

Ann: —and love you.

Joel: —and love me. They love Jesus more than they love me. They’re not dependent on me for anything; I can’t do anything for them. They’re not connected to me vocationally. They’re not connected; there’s no platform that I can give them. It’s just like, “No.” There’s kind of a purity to it.

Ann (00:47:52):

You’re boys.

Joel (00:47:53):

It’s just my boys. And same for them; I’m that same thing for them. Sometimes, you need some other people to look and to call out that thing.

The second thing is I think we need to make prayer a regular part of the process, where we ask the Holy Spirit to illuminate the areas of our heart that we are unaware.

Ann (00:48:10):

“Search me; know me.”

Joel (00:48:11):

Oh, yeah. “Create in me a new heart, O Lord.” That’s the second thing.

The third thing is: if you’re married, your spouse is the best person. Who else can know you than your counterpart, who, in love—it’s kind of like that bank—man, they have invested so much positive that, when they do say that thing, that is a bit of like, “Whew, that was tough.” That emotional bank of positivity and encouragement can cover the hit of that criticism or that critique that comes in, that’s honest and true that we need to hear.

Dave (00:48:44):

That ratio is important.

Joel (00:48:46):

Yes.

Ann (00:48:47):

I think so too.

Dave (00:48:47):

The positive, the deposits. And then, so have you had any where your wife has said, “Hey…”

Joel (00:48:53):

Any?

Dave (00:48:54):

Do we have anything come to mind?

Joel (00:48:56):

A hundred percent; a hundred percent. I’ve had—the way that I talk to my boys sometimes can be very coach militant—I didn’t have a dad, growing up, who cared much about sports; didn’t teach me that kind of stuff. I still joke to this day: “I just needed a couple more inches. I could have gone, at least, D1 basketball. I could have gone hoops.”

Dave (00:49:17):

Yeah, I read some about you. You had a pretty good crossover behind the back. I’d like to see that.

Joel (00:49:21):

Yeah; yes. I was known from my crossover. Now, I’m just a spot-up 3pt shooter, Tuesday nights. The guys that come in and press; they know.

For me, it was like, “Hey, babe; sometimes, you talk to the boys more like you’re their coach, and a sergeant in bootcamp, than you’re just their dad.” I’m like, “What do you mean? No, they love it. They love when I’m…”

Ann: “They love it.” “They love it!”

Joel: We’re doing this thing now where I’m trying to take one of the kids out in the morning. Having four kids is hard; so just one. We rotate every week on Tuesday: I take a different kid out to breakfast before I go into the office, before they go to school. Took my son out, and we just kind of processed that; I was like, “Hey man, how do you feel?” And he’s like—my son was like—“Dad, I really love it when you coach me up; but sometimes, I got my coach; I don’t need you to coach me up.” I was like, “I get it.”

Dave: “It’s a good word.”

Joel: “That’s a good word.”

Ann (00:50:16):

That’s a good word.

Joel (00:50:17):

My wife has this ability to see in me; and for me, it’s like a place of actual—I so desperately wanted that, growing up—I just never had it. I never had anybody teach me how to shoot a jump shot; I had to literally watch Michael Jordan shoot a jump shot. If you watch anything about my game, it’s very much ‘90s Bulls: Steve Kerr, B.J. Armstrong—I watched those guys hoop—Toni Kukoc.

The problem is that—that place of honesty and goodness that you are coming from—can also become a place of hurt to your children, because they don’t need that; they’re already getting a healthy dose of it. I just needed Britt to be like, “Hey…”

And then, the other one—honestly, the big one, you guys—is to apologize. Apologize when I mess up, and I hate that!

Ann (00:51:06):

I do too.

Joel (00:51:07):

—especially with my kids.

Ann (00:51:09):

I can do it with my kids. It’s with Dave; it’s the hardest.

Dave (00:51:11):

Oh, man.

Ann (00:51:12):

I feel like God just continues to reveal this pridefulness in me, especially He’s showing me now. But I had been doing it for years, thinking I’m so much better at relationship stuff with us, than Dave: “He’s so out of touch with feelings and emotions,”—pure pride. And when I put that mirror up—and that’s the beauty of God’s Word—man, it exposes.

Dave (00:51:40):

Well, I mean the pride is—and it’s in all of us—when a good buddy or your wife critiques you or gives you knowledge about a blind spot. It’s a blind spot because you’re blind—you can’t see it—and everybody else can. When you respond: “I don’t want to hear that,” or “You’re wrong,”—that is nothing but pride. Now, sometimes, people are wrong; and they say things where they miss. But if we’re not open to—”I need your critique,” “I need your feedback; I grow if I get it,”—that’s a symptom of pride; because humility says, “I need it,” “I want it; please give it to me.”

I helped start a church 35 years ago. From Day One, my co-founder and I said, “Every sermon I give, I want feedback the second I walk off the stage. I’m going to preach this three more times today. Make it better: ‘What did I miss?’ ‘What did you hear?’”

Joel (00:52:32):

College quarterback; that’s such a college quarterback.

Ann (00:52:36):

Isn’t he? I would be like: “Don’t tell me anything. I already think I’m horrible.”

Joel (00:52:39):

“I need 24 hours. I need 24 hours because you’ll devastate my heart.” I love that!

Ann: Me too!

Joel: It’s so like college.

Dave (00:52:46):

“We got a second quarter here. I just did the first; let’s win the second quarter if I blew the first one.”

Joel: I love it; I love it.

Ann (00:52:56):

This is so Dave. I love that about you.

Joel: I love it.

Luke (00:53:00):

Hi friends. I’m Luke Middendorf, President of FamilyLife; and this is my wife Kristina. Together, we have the privilege of leading FamilyLife and serving families, just like yours. This year has had its challenges, but God’s promises do remain true: “Those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength.”

Kristina (00:53:19):

We’ve seen that hope come alive through FamilyLife—marriages restored, families renewed, and faith strengthened—and your generosity makes this possible.

Luke (00:53:30):

As the year ends, will you join us in helping more families experience the joy and renewal only God provides? You can give at FamilyLifeToday.com or by calling 800 FL-TODAY.

Kristina (00:53:44):

Together, let’s carry the hope of Christ into the year ahead.

Dave (00:53:52):

One of the themes I’ve noticed in the last decade—in, at least, American Christianity—because it’s in a lot of our worship songs now, is identity/our identity in Christ, which is a beautiful thing to understand. I had one of my preachers say, “When you walk in a room, understanding who you are in Christ,”—his language was—”you own that room.” It sounds like you’re being cocky and confident. He’s like, “No, this isn’t cocky. I know who I’m in Christ, so I’m not walking in there trying to impress anybody. I don’t need to impress anybody. I’ve impressed God of the universe; He’s impressed with me, so I walk in with a confidence that’s secure—

Ann: It’s humble.

Dave: —rather than a cockiness to try and wow you.” Talk about how understanding my identity in Christ is also humility.

Joel (00:54:43):

One of Paul’s favorite phrases is “in Christ”—the Greek phrase is: “in Christ”—and it has to do/that phrase has to do with living in the sphere of the power and the authority of King Jesus. You think about John, Chapter 1: “In the beginning was the Word, the Word is with God; the Word was God. Through Him, all things were made. Without Him, nothing was made that has been made. In Him was life.” Then, it goes on the idea that there’s a singular reason, right now, that the sun doesn’t just burn up the entire earth. There’s a singular reason why the moon doesn’t collapse onto the earth. Why our feet—singular reason—why our feet stay on the ground and not float. And that singular reason is Christ Jesus; He’s holding all things together.

So to say that we are in Christ—our identity is in Christ—is fundamentally a statement of humility. It’s fundamentally a statement of: “Who is Christ?”—Christ is the One who’s holding all things together. And then, I would want to contrast—2 Corinthians,

Chapter 5, Paul talks about the ministry of reconciliation—he says that you and I are ambassadors of Christ. In the Greco-Roman world, that word, “ambassador,” was a very specific significant word. It was a word to represent a dignitary who was a representative of the royal king. Where you went, the authority, and the power, and the presence of that king went; it’s kind of this fascinating detail.

I’m a US citizen, born in the United States. I was in India just a couple of weeks ago. We went to the American consulate—fascinating detail—the second I’m in India; but I walked into the American consulate, guess where I was?

Ann: —the United States.

Joel: The United States; it’s wild!

Dave (00:56:15):

Yeah, yeah.

Joel (00:56:15):

There’s this sense—as ambassadors of Christ—where we go, the kingdom of God goes.

Ann (00:56:24):

Gosh, that’s such a good reminder.

Joel (00:56:25):

Where we go, the power, and the presence, and authority of Jesus goes. Very important distinction between our identity being in Christ and we are Christ. This is where pride comes in. Pride comes in to actually cut out Christ—and uses Christ as a means for us to exercise the power and authority as if it’s innate of ourselves—and not from a posture of humility that says, “No, we receive this thing; we are given this by King Jesus for a purpose.” The purpose is the exaltation of Jesus and the expansion of His kingdom.

(00:57:01):

So all the places that we walk into, we’re on assignment; we’re on mission.

It’s the worst for me on airplanes, because I’m not a talker. I talk a lot for work; so when I get on an airplane, I just want to sit; put the headphones on. I don’t want to talk to nobody. And sometimes, every now and then, I’m next to a talker. It doesn’t matter what I’m reading—this was a funny one—I’m reading a theology book. The guy next to me goes, “Hey man, what are you reading?” I said, well, it’s called Jesus the Sage. It’s about second temple literature in Jesus’ wisdom. The guy looks at me; and he goes—he cusses and says—“That’s cool.”

Dave (00:57:43):

Really?

Joel (00:57:43):

No joke. We spent the next two hours, back to Charlotte, talking about Jesus, and talking about his experience in the faith, and talking about his Ayahuasca DMT drug trips that he does. It got very—I got the opportunity to just share the gospel with him—I ended with, “Hey, that Ayahuasca DMT stuff that you do. Why do you do it?” He goes, “Well, I just want to meet the spirits. I want to be connected to the spiritual.” I go, “Man, there’s this really amazing thing about Christianity. When we give our lives to Jesus, we get the indwelling Holy Spirit; and you don’t need to go on.”

Ann (00:58:23):

“He lives in you.”

Joel (00:58:23):

“He lives in you”; yeah. He’s like, “What?!”

Dave: Talk about a trip.

Joel: Well, there’s much more cussing that happened throughout that entire thing. I can only imagine what other people were thinking. You had this Indian theologian guy talking to… Those are like: “Man, where you go, the kingdom of God goes. Are you open to how God wants to use you? Even if it’s uncomfortable and you don’t…”—I didn’t want to have that conversation, frankly.

Dave (00:58:47):

I mean, talk about humility; how humble is it to realize God put you beside that guy?

Ann (00:58:52):

Joel, I would want to sit beside you on a plane; I would ask you a million questions. What a fortunate guy—that was God-ordained; because He’s in you, and He wanted to talk to this guy beside you—and you allowed him to.

Dave (00:59:08):

Let me ask you this: “How does humility/what does it look like in your marriage?”

Joel (00:59:13):

Oh, man. I think, in my marriage—I have a funny story in the book—it’s called “The Time Kelly Clarkson Uninvited Me.”

Dave (00:59:22):

Oh, yeah, yeah. I read that.

Joel: Have you read that one?

Ann: Yes.

Dave: Tell [our listeners.]

Joel (00:59:25):

My wife is super funny; she’s hilarious. She’s like a social media celebrity. Her handle is: “@almostindianwife.” She’s white; I’m Indian; hence, the tagline.

Ann (00:59:35):

I have to look her up right now.

Joel (00:59:36):

Yeah, she’s so funny. One of her videos went viral, like crazy viral. It was right as COVID was ending. It’s a picture/it’s a video of my little daughter, Emmie. She must’ve been like two at the time, running to say, “Hi!” to her brothers who are just getting off of the bus. It’s this cute moment where Em’s just running; she’s doing the penguin waddle, running as fast as she can. She’s yelling, “Bubbas!”—which is what she calls her older brothers. The boys see her, and they just lose it. This is the first time in five years that they had no—she must been; she was born on/this must have been; she must have been three—this is the first time in three years that they have been separated, and they’re seeing each other and it’s just like this magnet to each other. The kids are throwing off their backpacks—they still have their masks on—they’re throwing off all this stuff. They just embrace. She’s yelling, “Bubbas!”; and they’re yelling, “Emmie, I see you!”

Britt went to bed that night—posted that video—went to bed that night. It wasn’t even the content that she typically posts; but it was like, “This is just too wholesome. We just need to post.” I went to bed; woke up the next day. Her phone broke; wouldn’t turn on. I look at my phone; my phone is blowing up. It’s like: “Joel, Beyonce’s mom,” “Joel, Keenan and Cal,” “ Joel, Good Morning America.” I’m like, “Why are they naming all these celebrities?”—Janet Jackson: “Joel, Janet Jackson.” I’m like, “What?!” And I look, and the video had, overnight, 7 million views.

Ann (01:01:05):

Come on! I’m looking it up; she’s got a lot of followers. I bet she got a lot from that.

Joel (01:01:10):

And now she’s been doing this now for the last six years or whatever. So it’s been, yeah, that’s the video. That’s it; that’s it right there.

Ann (01:01:16):

We should put this: we’ll put a link to it in the show notes.

Joel (01:01:20):

I think what people saw in it was they saw themselves; they saw: “Oh, this is what love should look like.”

Ann (01:01:28):

This makes me cry; I’m watching it. It’s the sweetest thing ever!

Joel (01:01:29):

It’s so sweet. People saw it; and they’re like—oh, the cool thing is in the comments section—people are like: “I haven’t talked to my brother in years; this makes me want to reach out to him,” or “I have no relationship with my sister, and this makes me want to…” “I remember this moment as a kid,”; so that thing came up.

Anyways, Kelly Clarkson—which, if you’re listening, Kelly, I’m still a huge fan—she was like, “Hey, we’d love to have your family on for an interview.” It was like a Zoom interview or whatever. I was like, “Yeah, absolutely.” I’m sitting; and I’m like—I do this for a living, you guys; I do podcasts—and I’m like, “This is my time to shine;”—talking about pride—”I’m going to crush it.

Dave (01:02:10):

“Here we go, baby!”

Joel: I’m giving advice to my wife and my kids: “Guys, the producer’s going to come on; they’re going to ask us this.” I’m doing all the things. I sit down, and the producer’s up. We’ve got the set-up and the producer goes, “Okay, Brittany, we know who you are. Kids, we know who you are. Emmie, everybody knows who you are. Sir, who are you?” I said, “My name’s Joel; I’m dad.” They’re looking through their notes, frantically, flipping.

Ann: Come on.

Joel: Because it’s a family of six on the couch. And the guy goes, “You know what? Did you take the video?” I said, “No, I was at work.” “Were you in the video?” “No, I was at work.” “Well, there’s a lot of you guys. We just think it might be good for it to just be the people who are in the video.”

Instantly, I’m like, “Oh, yeah; absolutely. I’m totally good.” I set them up, and I get them ready. I can tell we’re about to go live in five minutes. And then, the guy goes, “Hey, can you please make sure you hide behind the wall? Make sure we don’t see you.” And I’m like—this place; this wall in our house—I’m hiding behind the wall. I’m thinking, “How did this happen to me?”

(01:03:22):

That’s just a humility moment, like, “Oh, man.”

Ann (01:03:26):

That’s the best story. It’s so life.

Joel (01:03:28):

I had to process it: “How did I feel? How did that make me feel?” “What insecurities came up inside of me?” “What are the performance things about me that the Lord was exposing in my heart?” And then the tension of—man, I’m so proud of my wife; I’m so happy that the kids get to experience this—so you have this tension of: “Lord, I love this,”—but I’m also like—“Why can’t I be in it?” And more than that: “Why can’t I be the star of it?”

Ann (01:03:57):

That’s exactly what our kids go through too of—even then, I think the enemy can whisper, “Because you’re nobody.” That can happen to our kids because: “You’re not important,”—just those lies of the enemy. It’s keeping that balance is what you’re talking about.

Joel (01:04:13):

Honestly, it gets more deceptive—or more destructive—because it goes: “It’s because your wife doesn’t value you.

Ann (01:04:21):

Yes.

Joel (01:04:21):

“Your kids don’t need you anymore.”

Ann (01:04:23):

So many things.

Joel (01:04:25):

It can spiral.

Ann (01:04:26):

Yes. So how did you not spiral or go the other way, like “I am so much; I am who made this family”?

Joel (01:04:33):

I did do that; I did do that initially. Honestly, frankly, I’ve got some good friends. One—the gal’s name is Lysa TerKeurst, who’s a great big sister—that helps kind of navigate some of these things. We’ve got a group of us that we all study the Bible together, and we do real life. We literally—just like this—it’s me, Lysa, Meredith, Shala, Leah; we’re all this group at Proverbs. We study, and we work on each other’s projects.

Ann (01:04:58):

Did you share that whole story?

Joel (01:04:58):

A hundred percent I shared it.

Ann (01:04:59):

And what did they say?

Joel (01:05:00):

And they just were so honest. They were like—man, they laugh, first, laugh hysterically, like you guys did—and then, secondarily, it was asking some prodding questions. And then, Lysa was like, “Have you talked to Britt about it?” I was like, “Why? What do I need? This is a me issue.” She’s like, “Oh, no; this isn’t a me issue.” It opened a conversation/a dialogue for me to be able to share, which is not easy for me. I’m not an emotions guy. It’s like, “Oh, just share what it made you feel and why it made you feel that way.”

Ann (01:05:30):

I think that easily happens in marriage—where, especially if you’re a young mom and maybe you were super successful in your career; and now, you’re spending more time at home—you can be thinking, “I don’t do anything”; but you’re raising these kids who are warriors for the kingdom; you’re discipling them. It’s easy to be jealous.

Dave (01:05:49):

You went through that.

Ann (01:05:50):

I did: “Who am I apart from what I do?”—the identity peace.

Dave: Every mom probably does.

Joel (01:05:54):

The identity thing.

Dave (01:05:56):

I think, as guys, we go through it in some—a million different ways—but one of the ways I went through it is at the workplace; they think I’m pretty amazing. I come home: “You don’t think I’m amazing. I want to go…”—”I’m good at this, and they acknowledge that,”—and here, I’m just a guy. It’s like, “You know what? That’s what I’m supposed to do. I’m supposed to lay down my life,”—

Joel (01:06:17):

—Ephesians 5.

Dave (01:06:20):

—to lead and serve her and these kids. It’s not about me and my title. It’s literally about—it’s not about me at all—but I want to be God’s man for this family. You got to put it down.

Joel (01:06:31):

Well, speak about humility—Ephesians 5—it’s so fascinating that the most provocative verse in that is: “Wives submit to your husbands.” But in the ancient world, the thing that’s most crazy about that entire thing is that Paul says that one statement to wives—which, by the way, the Greek word, “submit,”—tasso—it doesn’t even show up in that verse in the original manuscripts. It belongs there; but it’s supplied by the head verb, which is a mutual submission in Christ Jesus. It’s actually the husband and wife are submitting to Christ Jesus, which obviously makes submission in that context so easy, like, “We both are following Jesus.” What people would’ve lost their minds on is how many verses that Paul spends on talking about the guys.

Ann (01:07:10):

Yes.

Joel (01:07:11):

You would never do that in the Greco-Roman world! I mean, there are so many dudes that are in that church.

Ann (01:07:15):

Wait, really? Wait, that wouldn’t have happened?

Joel (01:07:16):

No, no, no, no. In the Greco-Roman world, there’s no way that anybody would’ve spent, in a patriarchal society, they would’ve spent that much real estate in an ancient letter, which costs a lot of money to put together, to call men out on the carpet for how they treat their wives, and how they lay down their life, and how they should wash their wives in the Word, and how they should be self-sacrificial the way that Jesus was like. There’s a series of sentences that are dedicated to the men’s responsibility, and there’s this one sentence that’s about the woman’s submission. So again, the context helps us to go—like every dude that’s in the city in the church in Ephesus, which is probably a circular letter, so it’s going to other places as well—their jaws are dropping; they’re sweating. They are wondering if they put deodorant on that day or not. It was bad, like, “We’re getting called out significantly here.”

Ann (01:08:08):

Wow.

Joel (01:08:08):

Yeah, it was very revolutionary, which makes sense why the church exploded the way that it did in the first century. Yeah, humility. Humility is the answer to it.

Dave (01:08:19):

Humility is the answer to be able to receive that humbly. I’ve got such a pride problem.

Ann: What?!

Dave: We all do.

Ann: We all do.

Dave: You have to kill it. You literally have to stab it when it raises. I was, years ago, my co-founder and I were speaking at a pastor’s conference, probably 500 pastors there: “Hey, we want to learn from you. Your church has grown,”—blah, blah, blah. Somehow, something came up about pride. I say this quote from the stage; I go, “Hey, I don’t know who said this; but I heard somebody say: ‘In every church, every situation, you want to crown a king. You always want to crown a king. We’re talking about King Saul, and you just want to crown a king.’ And I go, ‘What we decided to do at our church is not let them crown you king. Don’t let them do it; they’re going to try. Don’t let them do it.’ And they’re like, ‘Oh, wow; that was a great statement.’”

The next day, I see on Twitter—we’re going back to do a second day—one of the guys there said my co-founder said—he said, “Hey, Steve said yesterday this,”—it was my quote.

(01:09:26):

I saw my soul: “He didn’t say that; I said that. I said that; that’s my quote.”

Joel: Plagiarism!

Dave: The quote is: “Everyone wants to crown a king.” And here I am saying: “I want that to be acknowledged to me.” Look at the pride in me.

Joel: Man, that’s human.

Dave: It was said, “I’s a good quote.” Who cares who said it, but I saw: “Look what’s inside me. I want my wife to crown me a king. It’s like you want your kids to crown you are king.” We’re literally called to lay it down, and that’s the hidden peace.

This has been good stuff.

Ann (01:09:57):

Joel, we can talk to you forever. You have so many great stories in your book as well that talk about humility and examples of it. You talk about your grandfather—this story, I’m like, “Oh, my goodness; this story was crazy,”—but you’re going to have to get the book, as a listener. You’re going to want to get this.

Is there anything else that you’re like, “Man, this is so on my heart to reveal this about this topic”?

Joel (01:10:22):

I would just say the last couple places that I’ve been teaching and speaking at, I just felt compelled by the Holy Spirit to say it. I want to say to you guys as well. It all comes down to a very simple idea; which is, “Just don’t miss Jesus.” My friend, Jim Cress, who’s also part of our therapy and theology podcast. Jim’s statement is: “It’s something can be simple, but far from being simplistic.” This is that thing; it’s like, “It’s so simple: ‘Don’t miss Jesus.’ But it’s far from being simplistic because it’s like, “Don’t miss Jesus on His own terms, not the Jesus that we’re trying to create in our own image.” The invitation to humility is really an invitation to the life of Christ. Philippians 2 puts that on powerful display—the humble High King of heaven who comes, and He really gives of His life, like what we just talked about—for the reconciliation, the restoration of humanity. It’s like, “Man, don’t miss Jesus. Because if we see Jesus, it’ll change everything for our lives.”

Ann (01:11:24):

Can we be humble apart from Him?

Joel (01:11:26):

I don’t think so.

Ann (01:11:27):

I can’t.

Joel (01:11:28):

Yeah. I think that any type of humility apart from Christ is still self-motivated.

Ann (01:11:33):

So what’s an action step for listeners? What do you think?

Joel (01:11:40):

Here’s the thing that you can do that I think is so fascinating. When you feel like the world is falling apart, when you feel like anxiety has hit you/stress has, here’s what I want y’all to do: “If weather allows, I want you to go outside. Even if it’s raining—if there’s no thunderstorm, no lightning or whatever—still go outside and take your socks off. Find a patch of grass and put your feet in the grass. I want you to look up into the skies. If it’s the day, pay attention to the clouds and where the sun is. If it’s nighttime, look at the stars, where the moon is, and remind yourself of this simple truth: You don’t have to do anything to hold it all together; He does.

Dave: He does.

Ann: He does.

Joel: Don’t miss Jesus.

Ann: That’s really good.

Dave (01:12:22):

That’s a good word.

And by the way, you can get Joel’s book, The Hidden Peace, FamilyLifeToday.com. Click on the link in the show notes; and we’ll also put in the show notes that video, which I haven’t even seen.

Ann: It’s so good.

Dave: That’s great; thanks, man.

Joel: You bet. Thank you, guys.

Ann (01:12:41):

Hey, thanks for watching. If you liked this episode,—

Dave (01:12:44):

You better like it.

Ann(01:12:45):

—just hit that “Like” button.

Dave (01:12:46):

And we’d like you to subscribe. All you got to do is go down and hit the “Subscribe”—

I can’t say the word, “subscribe”—hit the “Subscribe” button. I don’t think I can say this

word!

Ann: I can: “subscribe.”

Dave: Look at that! You say it so easily. “Subscribe”; there he goes!

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