The Right Way to Keep Score in Your Marriage

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson – Web Version Transcript

This content has been generated by an artificial intelligence language model. While we strive for accuracy and quality, please note that the information provided will most likely not be entirely error-free or up-to-date. We recommend independently verifying the content with the originally-released audio. This transcript is provided for your personal use and general information purposes only. References to conferences, resources, or other special promotions may be obsolete. We do not assume any responsibility or liability for the use or interpretation of this content.

The Right Way to Keep Score in Your Marriage

Guests:Bruce & Maria Goff, Alyssa & Jon Miller, Brian Goins and Shaunti Feldhahn

From the series:Healthy Habits for Happy Marriages (Day 1 of 2)

Air date:February 13, 2025

Shaunti:This is a mindset shift. This is when we talk about the secrets of the happiest couples, and we talk about the habits, this is an example of one that it has to just be a habit. However, building the habit is not nearly as complicated as you think.

Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave:And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

The Olympics was a few months ago, and you’re a former gymnast.

Ann:Yes.

Dave:If you could have spent an hour or two with Simone Biles learning how to do whatever you call those, flip aerial, triple by double axel things, what would that have been like?

Ann:Oh, I would’ve loved that. I would’ve said, “Teach me how you do the vault.”

Dave:Well, today—

Ann:Because the beam was just scary. Today is what? What does that have to do with today?

Dave:Today we’re going to learn from the best in the world. We are going to learn from the best in the world.

Bruce:I wouldn’t say that.

Dave:The best in the world. We’re not even going to let you hear the guests we have in the studio until later. We’ve got two couples in the studio. They’re going to respond to a clip of Brian Goins and Shaunti Feldhahn—

Ann:—who have a podcast called Married With Benefits. So this is season four where they’re talking about the Highly Happy Couples.

Dave:Which are the best in the world. They have the best marriages, and so Shaunti wrote a whole book about what do they do? What are the habits?

Ann:Not that you guys sitting at the table aren’t the best couples in the world but—

Dave:Yeah, we’re going to introduce you guys in a minute, but we’re going to watch this clip. This one is the best in the world. Couples keep score. Now it sounds like you shouldn’t keep score. Well, they do keep score in a different way, and we’re going to watch this. We will introduce you guys and we’re going to hear your thoughts on what this big habit is. So let’s watch this.

[Recorded Message]

Brian:A lot of us have often heard the phrase in conventional wisdom, “Don’t keep score.” We’ve heard that phrase from 1 Corinthians 13 that we don’t keep a record of wrongs, but I think what you found is that we can’t help but keep score as a couple. I’m keeping tally of all the things that I’m doing, and Jen is keeping tallies, my wife, of all the things that she’s doing. That’s just the wrong score to keep, right?

Shaunti:Yes. One of the things that we saw so clearly—this was one of the most clear statistically of all of the secrets—is the happy couples actually, they do keep score, but they keep score of something completely different and instead they’re keeping score of what their spouse is giving.

Brian:Why is it in marriage it’s so easy for us just to notice and feel like what we’re doing. I heard the old phrase. It’s like every mule believes his load to be the heaviest.

Shaunti:Yes.

Brian:And that’s what we think. It doesn’t even matter how we divvy up responsibilities or chores. We think that what we’re doing is the most, the most hardest.

Shaunti:That’s a good phrase. I like that.

Brian:How about that? That sounds grammatically right.

Shaunti:And you ask why do we do that? I think it’s called the Garden of Eden. I think it goes all the way back to sin, brokenness, and from then on, our attention is always going to be on us. It’s all about me, me, me. That’s understandable. We’re all human and we’re not saying it doesn’t matter what you do. Of course it matters. That’s part of serving. But one of the things that we found in this study that was just so eye-opening is instead of focusing on your serving and what you’re doing, actually flip it and focus on what your spouse is giving.

I’ll give you an example. I think I actually tell the story in this chapter where I came downstairs one night and Jeff is like, it’s late at night. He’s starting a couple loads of laundry. And I’m like, “I’m so sorry. Let me help.” He’s like, “No, honey, you have been on airplanes. You’ve been doing all the research interviews.” And I’m like, “Who’s talking? You were doing all this legal work for whatever, and you didn’t get home until 10 o’clock at night last night because you were so busy with this other stuff.” And he’s like, “Yeah, but that’s nothing to what you…” and you see how that goes.

And what was happening, we started laughing that we’re arguing at 10 o’clock at night about who should be the one doing the laundry in the good way. “No, let me.” “No, let me.” “No, let me.” But it was because I, and I’ll give it from my perspective, I was so attuned without realizing—again, this is a secret. Wow. This is one of the secrets of the happy marriages, but I was so attuned to everything he had been doing that week. He had just been working his tail off. And so I’m like, “Okay, this is the least I can do,” and here’s my suggestion for everybody. Write that down.

Write down the words: “This is the least I can do.” Because if you have the mindset of looking for what your spouse is giving, you’re going to see it everywhere and then you’re going to start feeling this incredible gratitude and think, “What can I do? Well, the least I can do is such and such because you’ve already done so much here.”

Brian:So how do you get to that shift? Because significant, and if it’s natural bent of the struggling couples or even just the happy couples of, like, “But you got to understand, I’m tired. It’s at the end of the day.”

Shaunti:Exactly.

Brian:I’m just recounting all that I did with the kids and making sure their homework was done, and then I had to put food on the table and then the dishes are still in the… Where do I get that mindset to be able to go, “Okay, now I’m going to focus on actually what my spouse has done all day.”

Shaunti:When you talk about mindset, this is a mindset shift. This is when we talk about the secrets of the happiest couples, and we talk about the habits. This is an example of one that it has to just be a habit. However, building the habit is not nearly as complicated as you think because right now, most of the time we’re not focusing on what they’re doing. We’re focusing on what we’re doing. Thank you very much.

Brian:Right.

Shaunti:And so the minute that you start looking, you’ll see it everywhere. The minute you actually let yourself literally even keep a list, right? The minute you start looking, whoa, you’re going to see it.

Brian:I like what you talk about in the book about the canoe principle. Talk about that; what the canoe principle is.

Shaunti:I love this example. One of our couples that we were interviewing, one of the highly happy couples, gave us this word picture, and this is what they, in their own marriage, they call it the canoe principle.

Brian:And so it’s like a mindset shift for them, once they got that analogy.

Shaunti:It’s a mindset shift. Exactly. Their mindset shift was how easily a canoe tips.

Brian:Oh yeah.

Shaunti:And so you have somebody in the front, somebody in the back, and if one partner leans left, well, unless the other partner leans, right, you’re going to tip over. And so it’s almost this, “Look what they’re doing. Okay, I need to do something over here.” And it’s not a tit for tat, I owe you, whatever, because that’s going to create resentment really fast. This is just coming out of the depths of my being because I’m so grateful for you. And it’s building it as a process.

Brian:As opposed to if one couple is going, “Look what I’m doing all over here on the left.” “Well, I’m going to look at what I’m doing over here.” If you keep saying that and you follow that out, you do what I’ve done with many people in a canoe, and that is flip them over.

Shaunti:Flip them over, which is very exciting.

Brian:And then you feel like it’s really hard to flip the back over, right?

Shaunti:Well, and speaking of flipping it back over and speaking of the things that tip the canoe, in addition to saying, “Oh, look at me.” “No, no, no. Look at me. Here’s what I’m doing,” which will capsize the canoe pretty quickly. In addition to that, it’s recognizing that you’re now starting this new life and this new mindset of doing these things with the right motives. Because that’s an issue. And this is something that Jeff has, and he wouldn’t mind me sharing this because he’s said this from the stage in some of our marriage events. This is one where he would be like, “If I want to make Shaunti feel bad, all I need to do is go load of laundry or do the dishes,”

Brian:Just be really loud—

Shaunti:Really loud.

Brian:—really loud with slamming the door and washing the dishes. I’ve done that where I’ve kind of stomped around and said look at the work I’m doing here.

Shaunti:And making a point. And candidly, that is one of those things that’s not only going to tip over the canoe; that’s going to actually keep you down there for a day. It’s going to be hard. It’s hard to get back from that.

[Studio]

Dave:Alright, that’s a really interesting, surprising secret.

Ann:It’s a good one.

Dave:It’s a good one. And we’re going to find out—

Ann:It’s good one to have a conversation.

Dave:We thought Shaunti was the expert. We got the experts in the studio. We’ve got Bruce and Maria Goff sitting over here on my left and on staff with FamilyLife, how many years?

Bruce:Ten years.

Dave:Ten years.

Ann:You’ve been married 12 years. You have number four, baby girl.

Dave:Daughter, four girls.

Ann:Yeah, on the way.

Dave:Sitting over here is these newlyweds. How many months? Three months.

Jon:We’re almost three.

Alyssa:Yeah.

Dave:Jon and Alyssa Miller on staff as well. How many years?

Alyssa:I’ve been on staff with Cru for eight years now.

Dave:Alright.

Jon:And I’ve been on staff with FamilyLife for three.

Ann:So let me ask you, because you guys are in very different phases of marriage, which our listeners are too. As a married couple, newly married, as you listen to that, what do you think?

Jon:I’m taking notes constantly. The backstory is Bruce and I both got to work on Married With Benefits. He was the producer, and I did a lot of the post-production on the show and Alyssa actually would sit with me during recording sessions, which was super, super fun. And we were still dating at the time. We’d be listening to Brian and Shaunti do their thing, and then occasionally throwing some side eye at each other or elbows, “You taking notes right now,” “Are you paying attention?”

Alyssa:“Are you keeping score?”

Jon:“Are you keeping score?” So I actually feel like we are already reaping the benefits of getting to just kind of sit and listen to all of those sessions and recordings and then work on the show.

Ann:Well then Bruce and Maria, you guys are in the hardest phase of marriage. I’m just going to say it. Your girls are, tell the age of your kids.

Maria:They are eight, five and three.

Bruce:And what, five months in utero?

Maria:Twenty weeks.

Ann:So if anybody is struggling with this area, it’s you because it’s easy to compare whose life is harder at this phase.

Dave:And we all know.

Maria:Just guessing, but what if you’re right?

Bruce:I know I was thinking the same thing. Okay, but there is a scenario where one spouse is doing more than the other; that can happen. And then what—hypothetically.

Dave:So the point is if one spouse is doing more, keeping score means you acknowledge that, you celebrate that instead of the opposite, right? Isn’t that the point?

Bruce:Well, I mean unless hypothetically you were the one that thought that you were doing more, but okay, so a couple of things on that. That’s where my flesh wants to go, but it’s got me thinking about our vows even though I don’t remember our vows because I didn’t heed my father-in-law’s advice of just stick with the traditional ones. You’ll be able to remember them.

Dave:You wrote your own.

Bruce:I think so.

Dave:You think so.

Bruce:We did write them. I just don’t know what we wrote.

Maria:We borrowed some from other people that I liked, and we edited a little bit.

Dave:I mean Jon looks over here like “You don’t remember your vows!”

Jon:Ours are framed in our bedroom.

Maria:You remember the essential—

Bruce:Somewhere in there. The thrust of it was I’m going to—

Maria:Just so you know though he doesn’t remember anything.

Bruce:s—serve and give and cherish, nourish. Yeah, so there’s that too.

Ann:Serve and nourish and cherish Maria.

Bruce:And cherish. I mean that’s Ephesians 5 and so I didn’t sign up to, “I promised to keep track of if you’re keeping up with me” or whatever. I signed up for, “I’m going to serve you,” period. I made that vow. So that’s what I’m on the hook for is serving you. And so I don’t need to keep score of my own stuff and seeing that I’m winning. That’s irrelevant. That’s not part of the vow.

Maria:For me, I think it’s really hard as a really busy homeschool mom to separate—

Dave:By the way, you just added homeschool on top of everything we just heard. Okay.

Maria:It’s really hard to separate my feelings because I have a lot of feelings about myself as a mom and a lot of feelings about myself as a wife, and it’s hard to separate those so I constantly—when you have a bunch of kids and they’re constantly complaining about the food that you make and the lessons that you put in front of them and the activities that you choose for the day, and I think about the episode where Dave was talking about how he felt like he was being booed all day at home. That’s how it feels for me is I just feel like I’m constantly being booed. So it’s hard for me to separate that from when Bruce is doing things or expecting things from me to not be like, “Well, I did this, and I did this, and I did this, and I did this to defend myself. I’m a good mom; I’m a good wife. Somebody tell me I’m a good mom and a good wife because—

Bruce:Someone should tell you that.

Maria:Sometimes it just feels like you just live under this umbrella of like, “Well, just nobody is happy with me ever.”

Ann:And I think it’s easy too to become resentful of our spouse that they don’t see it or help, but it’s also easy to be down on yourself of just that internal dialogue in your head of, “I’m failing everybody.” And so I think this is so counterintuitive to our natural bent of, instead of “Why aren’t you here?” or “Why haven’t you done this?” or “Why aren’t you doing this for us?” It’s such a different philosophy and mindset, isn’t it? “Look what you did today,” “Look at all the things you’ve been doing.”

Dave:And it’s so different then. And I’d love to hear your guys’ thoughts because when you’re dating or first married, this is more natural. It seems like. You see the good, you celebrate the good. I mean obviously when you’re dating, it’s one of the reasons you married this person. I love everything about him, but then I don’t know what it is, second month—you guys are in your third, so maybe it hadn’t happened yet, but you get to a place where you’re like, you stop seeing the good and you only see the bad.

And at the Weekend to Remember® we say you can block out the sun with a penny. If you put it right there, the glory of the sun can be gone because all you’re looking at. And that happens in marriage is you see the weaknesses. You see what they’re not doing. You see what you’re doing. So this is really a mindset. Have you guys experienced that at all already?

Alyssa:I feel like something that we had talked about in regard to this is recognizing the seasons that we’re in. And so you guys are talking about having three kids and a fourth on the way and thinking about how we’re in the season of, I’m currently on sabbatical, so I’m at home often, and so I’m doing a lot of things around the house, but I am enjoying it. I have space to do that. And so I feel like we’ve been talking about how there are seasons where I’m just naturally going to do more or he’s going to naturally do more for us. And so I feel like we’re trying to prevent the keeping score thing, but I’m glad that we’ve heard this only a few months into marriage, otherwise that might start happening and we don’t want that to happen.

Jon:Yeah, yeah. It’s almost like you need to get a 30,000-foot view on your life a little bit and be able to say, “Okay, she is just doing more of the stuff around the house. She’s doing more laundry, she’s doing more dishes, she’s doing more chores because I’m at the office all day long.” So I come home, and I get to kind of reap the benefit of her extra capacity in those things. And come this fall when you’re producing all these student conferences for college students, you’ll probably be working in the evenings. So it’ll be my turn to pull a little extra weight.

And if I just have a one-day or a one-week or a one-month view of that season, it’s like “I’m doing more work than you.” Now I’m comparing. But if I can step back and say, “Okay, just the season that we’re in, I have the opportunity to pull a little extra weight to help balance the other burdens that you’re carrying, just like you’ve been doing that for us in this season.”

Ann:You guys, that’s good. I love that you’re thinking ahead of time of the season you’re in and the seasons that are coming. So turning back to Bruce and Maria, so this is super easy to do to see the negative. Coach us, coach listeners, how can you change the mindset and to see the good?

Maria:I was listening to the video thinking I don’t know, how I’m having a hard time figuring out how to get there for myself. There’s a lot of fear with, “Well, if I don’t say what I’m doing, then nobody’s giving me credit for everything that I’m doing.” And so I feel like I have to defend all that I do, of “No, I am doing this and I’m doing this and I’m doing this. I do stuff.” Because we’re so different and we have such different, we see things so differently—

Ann:Which is beautiful.

Maria:But just kind of a baseline example of when he comes home at the end of the day, what I think is like, “Oh, thank goodness I got things picked up in a decent way and the house looks okay. I’m getting the dishes done or whatever.” He comes home and he sees the toys that are still on the floor and whatever clutter there is. He’s just a detailed person and he’s a tidy, a neat freak, and so he’ll see every bit of mess that’s there. He’ll see. So sometimes it feels like, “Well, it doesn’t matter how much I pick up because it’s not going to be to his standard.”

So not trying to rag on you. I’m just saying it’s hard sometimes to feel like, “Well, if I don’t keep score, if I don’t keep track of everything that I’m doing, nobody cares.”

Ann:I think a million people are resonating with that honestly, and they don’t know what to do.

Jon:It’s sticking out to me that you feel like, I’m hearing you say, if I don’t keep score for myself. No one else is keeping score for me.

Bruce:Yeah. Well, and that’s where the real nuts and bolts practicality of the gospel does come in. That Jesus sees you. Jesus loves you. And when we find our security in Him, He gives us rest from that burden. And then on the flip side, when I’m in that mindset of, “You need to do more” or whatever, it’s like, where do I come off thinking I deserve anything? Nothing is owed to me. She owes me nothing. I don’t deserve anything, but I get God’s grace anyway.

And so with that mindset shift of just like, “Wow, I can’t believe that I have a wife who loves me and I’m so glad to have kids who are leaving toys on the floor, and all of this is above and beyond anything I deserve.” It’s a gratitude thing, I think is what they’re talking about here, is a humble gratitude and not having these unrealistic expectations.

Ann:And it’s a new mindset. It’s a new mind shift. It’s the neurological pathways that we form in our heads of going in the wrong place and to switch it and to change it. It takes the gospel; it takes Jesus renewing our minds.

Dave:And I think in some ways it’s like when you said that, Bruce, I thought it is the gospel and Jesus sees, and here’s the thought I had. We also come alive when our spouse sees. It’s both. There’s a story in a Max Lucado—

Maria:Now don’t try to get off the hook.

Bruce:No. And as a husband, I mean part of the role is to remind you of that, and—

Dave:That’s part of our role.

Bruce:—the way you remind is by me seeing you. Yeah.

Dave:Max Lucado has this story in a book years ago about a little boy who’s scared of a thunderstorm, and he grabs his dad’s leg as they’re looking out the window and he’s like four years old and he says, “Dad, I’m really scared.” And dad says, “It’s okay, God’s with you.” He goes, “Yeah, I know, but right now I need someone with skin on.” And I’ve never forgotten that story. That’s the part where we know Jesus sees us but when our spouse—I mean it would be interesting, I don’t know what you guys think of this. What if you right now turned your spouse and said, “Here’s what I see.” Like right now, Bruce.

Maria:Don’t start that because then I’ll just start crying.

Bruce:I’m glad to.

Dave:No, I mean it could go both ways because it’s a mindset. I remember a buddy of mine coming home one day and he turned into driveway, and he had little kids. He said, “The stinking kid’s bike was in my driveway again.” And he goes, “I couldn’t pull my car in, so I shut the door. I got out and I kicked the bike.” Like, “Why can’t she have the driveway cleaned up when I get home?” And he goes, “I’m kicking the bike.” I’m like, “I’ve got a kid. I’ve got three kids, four kids. There’s toys everywhere.” And he goes, “It is just hitting me.” He’s like, “What am I? Who cares? There’s a bike in the yard. I could have no kids.” And it was just that mindset.

So it could be an interesting little fun thing. And I’d encourage our listeners to do the same thing, whether you could stop the podcast right now and turn to your spouse and say, “Hey, here’s what I see.” Or do it tonight or later or write it down like our friend Michelle does and gives her husband every year. Here’s all the things I see, and he weeps as he reads it. Let’s do it real quick, Bruce. You get to go first.

Bruce: Okay, sure. Yeah. I see in you a woman who loves people more than things and loves quality time and experiences more than order. And that’s a good, beautiful thing that you bring to our home. I see, without a doubt, the best homeschool mom on the planet, designed by God to be a homeschool mom. I mean, you’re as good at it as you can be, anyone could be. I see a giver of life, someone who lays down your body for others. What you’ve done for our girls is just amazing.

And I see in you a teacher of the gospel to three of my favorite people on the planet, our little girls. And I get to hear you doing a catechism with them and then get to hear and see the fruit of that. I see the fruit of what you do. Unless a seed falls to ground and dies, it doesn’t bear fruit. And I see the fruit of what you give to our little girls when Estelle is asking the deepest, hardest, apologetic questions I can ever imagine from an eight-year-old. I just see in her already that she’s going to be like the next Josh McDowell, and then I see a glow, just this tenderness in the way that she’s already learning to pray and pray about everything. Even silly things that I’m like, “Yeah, I guess we pray about that too.”

And that’s the fruit of what you’ve given. And then I see somebody who, I mean, I couldn’t doubt your love if I wanted to. You are fiercely loyal, and you make your love for me unquestionable.

Maria:Thank you.

Dave:We have time for anybody else to go.

Jon:I’ll jump in. Alyssa, you attack everything in life with just joy and enthusiasm. I’m prone to being cynical or overthinking stuff, and then I look to you and you’re just like, “Yeah, let’s go. This is going to be awesome.” You’re fearless, I think in that sense, which is really, really fun. You’re extremely gifted in what you do. You are enormously creative, but you’re a great communicator. You’re a great team leader. I very much see you already living out God’s design just in your work, in your life. I feel like I get to be your cheerleader and just cheer you on and which it’s easy to do, it’s fun to do.

Yeah, you bring endless amounts of capacity and energy, wisdom. You know how to care for people’s emotions, and you’re a great logical thinker in how you tackle stuff. I just feel like you’re the whole package. You’re everything.

Ann:That’s sweet.

Jon:She’s the best. I’m biased, but I’m also right. So I mean—

Ann:I wonder as I listen to you guys, like we’re all crying because it feels right. Those are the things that God speaks over us, and He sees in us. And why don’t we do that more in our marriages, at least once a week. Our words bring this healing balm of the gospel that even though your spouse sees all your weaknesses, they still love you. And that’s covenant.

Dave:And here we are at year 45, and I can say this, after four decades, you are the most giving, serving person I’ve ever met. It drives me crazy sometimes because your greatest happiness comes when others are happy. You have no concern for you. It’s always about me, our grandkids, our sons, our daughters-in-law. It’s strangers in the airport, which drives me crazy, which is such a beautiful thing. I’m the highliest happiest husband. I know that’s not a phrase—

Jon:Highliest.

Dave:Highliest happiest husband on the planet because of you.

Ann:Okay? I’m just going to—

Dave:No, you’re done.

Ann:Just going to say this, it’s super quick.

Dave:And that’s the end of FamilyLife Today.

Ann:Jesus is my anchor, but man, you are my anchor too. Just keep me from going from one extreme to the other. Your consistency, your loyalty, your love for Jesus, always pointing to the cross. That is a powerful thing. And I could name a million other things.

Dave:I hope couples today you do what we just did. Take a moment, write it down, text it, email it. But, if possible, look her in the eye, look him in the eye and say it. Keep score. They’re doing some great things, and we have to have a mindset to say, “I’m going to see those and celebrate those.” And if you do, you’ll be one of the highly happy couples.

Ann:And contact us. Let us know how it went. I want to hear your stories.

Dave:And we are so thankful that you listened today. And we want to share one of our favorite resources. It’s a free guide filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real life couples who’ve been right where you are.

Ann:And you can grab your copy today at FamilyLife.com/MarriageHelp. Again, go to FamilyLife.com/MarriageHelp for your free guide that’s full of marriage tips.

Dave:FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife®, a Cru® Ministry. Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.

If you’ve benefited from the FamilyLife Today transcripts, would you consider donating today to help defray the costs of producing them and making them available online?

Copyright © 2025 FamilyLife. All rights reserved.

www.FamilyLife.com