The Royal in You: Jordan Raynor

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FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson – Web Version Transcript

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The Royal in You

Guest:Jordan Raynor

From the series:The Royal in You (Day 1 of 1)

Air date:April 23, 2025

Jordan:I think, on the new earth, we might do some of the work we desperately wanted to do in this life.

Ann:It’s what we dreamed about doing.

Jordan:Because somebody’s listening, like, “I know God made me to be a writer,”

or “…an astronaut,”—whatever—“But for whatever reason, life happened; and I just had to get a regular J-O-B and pay the bills.” It is perfectly within the character of our good and loving Father to, when you arise from the nap that is death, to put that vocation in your hands for you to do it joyfully and enthusiastically, never having a case of “the Mondays” all for God’s glory and your greater joy.

Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave:And I’m Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave:Okay, so I just read an endorsement for a book. I’m going to read you this; it’s just one sentence. This woman said, “I can’t think of a better way to help our kids understand God.” You know who this person was. You don’t know—

Ann:—the endorsement? No, I don’t.

Dave:You know her: Candace Cameron Bure—

Ann:Oh!

Dave:—the actress; and her brother’s Kirk.

Ann:Yeah.

Dave:She wrote that about our author, who’s sitting across the studio table today, Jordan Raynor’s book, a children’s book.

Jordan:You couldn’t get Candace, so here I am.

Dave:Yeah, we couldn’t get Candace; she said—no—we got the guy she was talking about!

Ann:Jordan, I would say the same thing; because I’ve read all of your books to our grandkids, who range from ages ten—and our youngest grandchild is five months; I haven’t read it to her yet—but they love these books. This is a sequel. Tell us about the first one, and why did you go to this next one?

Jordan:Yes, let’s do it. So first of all, that’s incredibly/it makes me so happy to hear that. The stories we hear about kids falling in love with Jesus more because of these books is why we do this. So my first picture—

Dave:I just got to say though: I’m sure, when you get that endorsement, you’re like—she said, “I can’t think of a better way…”

Jordan:That kind of blew my mind.

Dave:That’s an endorsement!

Jordan:That’s an endorsement.

Dave:Nobody’s written an endorsement about our books like that.

Jordan:That blew my mind. So my first picture book—and I refuse to call them children’s books—because there are as much for parents as they are for kids.

Ann:Yes, I agree.

Jordan:Because of the artwork of my partner, John Voss—my illustration partner, to be clear—

Dave:He’s amazing.

Jordan:Jon Voss is incredible.

So the first one, The Creator in You, is a poetic interpretation of Genesis 1 and 2 that says—that contrary to what every other book about Genesis 1 that we’ve ever read our kids say—“The sixth day was not the end of creation. The sixth day was just the beginning”; because that’s when God passed the baton to us to create in His image, and work, and fill the earth, and subdue it; see Genesis 1:26-28.

With this one, The Royal in You, we’re going to the opposite bookend of Scripture. We’re going to Revelation 21 and 22 to debunk some frankly bad theology that a lot of us, including myself, grew up with about heaven; namely, that—contrary to what we preach in our churches—nobody’s going to spend eternity in heaven. Revelation 21 says that Jesus will bring heaven here to earth and live with us here. Contrary to the caricature of heaven as an eternal Hillsong service—yes, there is singing—but we will “reign forever and ever” with Christ, Revelation 22:5.

Ann:I can remember one of our sons—we were talking about heaven—and he said, “Well, why does anybody want to go there? Because one of the kids at school told me”—and he was little—”that it’s just like we’re just going to sing the whole time and sit around.”

Dave:—float around in clouds with harps.

Jordan:Most Christian adults believe they that.

Ann:They believe that?

Jordan:Yes!

Dave:Well, when you just said it a minute ago—“None of us are going to spend eternity in heaven,”—like we’re going to get calls; we’re going to get emails.

Jordan:You’re going to get calls!

Dave:So explain that: “Okay, what do you mean we’re not going to…

Jordan:Scripture is abundantly clear on this point. You cannot find a serious biblical scholar who would disagree with that statement. Revelation 21:1-5 says [paraphrase]: “See, I’ll create a new heavens and a new earth; and Jesus will dwell with us right here.” God did not, as we sing every Christmas, “fit us for heaven to dwell with Him there”; He promised heaven on earth and to dwell with us here.

It is true that, if God forbid, I get hit by a bus on my drive back to Tampa today, my soul/my spirit will be in what Randy Alcorn calls “the present heaven with Christ.” Where’s the present heaven?—we don’t know. Some people think the clouds; N.T. Wright thinks it’s, literally, hidden behind a screen right next to me; we don’t know. Here’s what we do know: we do know where heaven will be forever—and Revelation 21, Isaiah 60,

Isaiah 65, Revelation 22 makes it abundantly clear—that it will, ultimately, be here on earth, free from the curse of sin.

Ann:What does that mean?—“free from the curse of sin.”

Jordan:Oh, you tell me, Ann; I can’t even imagine! I can’t imagine there will be no more sin. As I say in the book: “There will be no more sadness, just the best things made perfect, bringing God and us gladness. Sin is gone; death is gone; Satan is defeated.”

Ann:And the earth has the effects of our sin, like it’s moaning; waiting. And so the whole earth will be different.

Jordan:That’s right; it’ll be different. But it’s not a net new earth; this is a renewed earth. Jesus did not say, “I’m coming to make all new things”; He said, “I’m coming to make all things—

Ann:—”new.”

Jordan:—“new.” And by the way, the Greek word that we use for new earth—there are two Greek words for new—one that means net new and the other that means new in quality. The term we use for new earth is new in quality. God is not going to obliterate the earth like Luke Skywalker obliterated the Death Star. He’s using fire to burn off the things that are contrary to God’s will so that the God-glorifying stuff will be found, and discovered, and revealed.

This is the key for us being excited about what Scripture says about heaven. Because Ann, I resonate with your son; I went to a Christian school for 13 years. I vividly remember sitting in chapel, horrified at the idea of spending billions of years playing a harp. It was only by God’s grace that, eventually, I came to discover that almost everything I had been taught about heaven in Sunday school and in chapel was either a half-truth or a full-blown lie.

But here’s the good news: when you read what’s Scripture, rather than culture—and I’m including in that church culture—says about heaven, man, it replaces any fear you have about eternity, any sense of boredom, any sense of dread you have about this idea—or just confusion—with biblical clarity, hope, and excitement that I believe gives greater glory to Christ our King.

Dave:Where did we get this idea? How is that a dominant theology for centuries in the church?

Jordan:It would take way too long to explain how we got there; and frankly, I’m not even sure I got a lot of clarity around that.

Here’s what I do know, and many biblical scholars I’ve read agree on this point—this is brand-new theology: our modern emphasis on the present heaven over the new earth—“the heaven tourism industry”—as one of my friends calls it. This will blow your mind. I did a search on Amazon in preparation for this book: “I want to know how many kids’ books are there about the present heaven?” There are 10,000 children’s books on present heaven.

Ann:What?!

Jordan:How many do you think there are about the new earth?

Dave:Zero; I would say zero.

Jordan:Two.

Dave:Two?

Ann:I was going to say, “I thought Joni Eareckson said,—

Jordan: Joni Eareckson Toda’s is terrific.

Ann:We interviewed her.

Jordan:Terrific book; and now, mine: The Royal in You.

Ann:Yes.

Jordan:That’s it!

Dave:That’s it?

Jordan:That’s mind-boggling. And guys, this is totally out of whack with Scripture; it’s the complete opposite. Heaven was not the ultimate hope of the writers of the New Testament. It was hope—present heaven was hope—Paul was excited about being with Christ. But ultimate hope was in the renewal of all things: was for Christ to come back, at that second coming, and make everything new; and that’s what He’s going to do.

The beauty of this—and where I’m going with The Royal in You—is: “That’s not the end of the story.” The new Jerusalem doesn’t just drop down from the sky: “Great. We know what we’re doing; we’re singing from the hymnal for a billion years.” We have got joyful, meaningful work to do with King Jesus. Isaiah 65 makes this clear.

Ann:Oh, wait; wait; wait. Somebody just said, “Wait; we have work? That sounds terrible. Define work.”

Jordan:It does sound terrible in our modern context, because we live after Genesis 3. But God’s design for work, all along, was that it would be perfect, blissful worship. It once was—see Genesis 1 and 2 when work existed prior to the fall—and Isaiah 65 makes it clear that the same will be true for eternity; except now, our work will be free from the curse of sin.

Here’s how I put it for kids in the book; I said: “Maybe, you’ll ride without fear on the backs of great lions; and blaze brand-new trails to the middle of Zion. Perhaps you’ll build roads for new cities, or help lead the Jesus welcome committee. Or create a new sport with no need to worry about getting hurt or needing to hurry,”—those [difficulties] are effects of the curse. “Don’t think for one second that heaven is boring; because we’ll be reigning, creating, and exploring—not just for our joy; and surely, not for our glory—but to love and to worship the One who is worthy. It’ll be so much better than your wildest dreams, ruling heaven on earth, next to Jesus, our King.”

Ann:I think that—

Dave:You are a poet.

Ann:That is my favorite line though; and it goes throughout the whole book: “ruling heaven on earth, next to Jesus, our King.”

Jordan:Next to Jesus, our King, is the point.

Ann:Yes.

Jordan:That’s the point.

Ann:Why is that the point?

Jordan:Because that’s the whole story of Scripture. It’s not what we do for God; it’s what we do with Him. And honestly, the more I think about this topic of faith and work, the more I’m convinced that work is merely an excuse for God to be with us. It’s a canvas on which He just wants to paint with His kids.

Dave:That’s good; really good.

Jordan:And because Christ, our King, will be with us, we will know there will be no sin. He’s not in the presence of sin, not on this renewed earth. I don’t know; I just think that’s a far more biblical and, frankly, personally relevant and exciting vision of the new earth than what most of us are pedaling in our churches today.

Ann:I think Randy Alcorn’s book: is it just Heaven?

Jordan:Yeah.

Dave:Yeah.

Jordan:Phenomenal.

Ann:The first time I read that—it was the first time I had read anything—

Dave:It took you three years to read it, but it was good.

Jordan:It’s a doozy.

Dave:It’s thick.

Ann:But just the idea that we will be doing jobs that fulfill us, that we love, that we were made to do; that was a whole new concept to me, like, “Wait! What?!” And that whole idea—and it’s all backed, biblically—that we’ll be doing things that matter, that make a difference, that we are so fulfilled when we get to do them.

Jordan:And some people are listening, like, “Where is this in Scripture?” I’ll tell you: “Revelation 22:5, Isaiah 65:17-23.” I would argue: “You want to know what we’re doing on the new earth?”—”Look at Genesis 1 and 2.”

Ann, that’s such great hope to our listeners; because there’s some listeners, who are listening right now, like, “Jordan, I’m driving to a job I hate; I can’t imagine enjoying my work.” I would argue: “There’s the most hope for you; because I believe, and Dr. Randy Alcorn helped me see this in his book, Heaven, I think on the new earth we might do some of the work we desperately wanted to do in this life.”

Ann:It’s what we dreamed about doing.

Jordan:Because somebody’s listening, like, “I know God made me to be a writer,” or “…an astronaut,”—whatever—“But for whatever reason, life happened; and I just had to get a regular J-O-B and pay the bills.” It is perfectly within the character of our good and loving Father to, when you arise from the nap that is death, to put that vocation in your hands for you to do it joyfully and enthusiastically, never having a case of “the Mondays” all for God’s glory and your greater joy.

Ann:Why did you want kids to understand this?

Jordan:Because I think this is the key to actually wanting to be with Jesus forever. Again, I dreaded the idea of heaven so much as a kid. And yes, I wanted to be with Jesus forever; I was excited to be with Jesus forever. But the church tradition I grew up in taught me that being with Jesus forever meant giving up all the other things that I know; by the way, Jesus Himself loved during His time on earth, like fish, and mountains, and beaches. I don’t know, and so it’s so deeply unbiblical.

Here’s been the biggest encouragement, Ann, as I’ve heard from friends, who have been reading this book. I’ve heard this from at least a half dozen friends now: “Hey, man, sat down to read The Royal in You with my kids. They stopped me in the middle of the book, and said, ‘I want to be with Jesus here.’” That’s the ultimate compliment. I think that this theology of the new earth is the key to getting our kids, not just to walk the aisle and pray the prayer—they’ll do that because they’re afraid of hell; sure—but to actually want to be with Jesus for eternity on the new earth. And oh, by the way, it makes this life feel a whole lot more relevant.

Dave:What do you mean?

Jordan:If eternity is this disembodied existence—as a soul, floating on clouds, playing a harp—that just looks like nothing like my life does today. But if we can reimagine God’s plan for us for eternity on earth, doing earthy things; now, I can start to view the earthy things I’m doing in this age, on this side of the new earth, as a means of rehearsing for eternity. I’m not waiting for eternity; I’m not waiting for Jesus to beam me up to the clouds to stay there forever. I am practicing something eternal. I can engage in that job, not as something that’s going to go away, but as something that I want to do today—this Monday, this Tuesday; whatever—the way I’m going to be doing it when King Jesus is alongside of me on the new earth. It just makes the practice more real.

Dave:So will there be sports?

Jordan:Listen, Scripture is silent on this; so I can’t say, “Yes,” or “No.” I’d be shocked if there wasn’t.

Dave:Will it be winners and losers?

Ann:My question is—I think there will be—but how do we do it without sinning?

Dave:That’s the thing: competition and all that, yes.

Jordan:I don’t know that we’re capable of competing without sinning; I’m not.

Ann:But we’ll have a new nature.

Jordan:We’ll have a new nature. Our desires will be perfectly pure, right?

Ann:It’ll be just fun.

Jordan:I can’t imagine a world without sports.

So let’s just make this clear: Isaiah 60 makes it very clear that we’re not just going back to the Garden of Eden; because I think even people, who think about the new earth, they’re like, “Oh, cool; this is a reset. We’re going back to Genesis 1”; that’s not true.

At a minimum, we have the greatest city of all time, the new Jerusalem, which stands seven million feet tall, deep, and wide. John gives us those dimensions of Revelation 21.

We know there are cities; Isaiah 60 tells us that there are physical works of human hands and culture on the new earth.

It says there are ships built by the nation of Tarshish.

It says there’s refined silver and gold.

Isaiah 25 says they’re the finest of meats and the choicest wines, so we know there’s the greatest food of all time.

And oh, by the way, we talked about what this means for kids. Let’s talk about what this means for grownups for a second. This is the secret to killing bucket list mentality with Christians. And by the way, kids get this; I was teaching this to fifth graders at our local church. I read them the book—I read them The Royal in You—I did not lead the witness. I said, “What does this mean for your life?” Little Hunter’s ten years old—raised his hand—“I guess it means that I don’t have to do everything I want to do in this life before I die.”

Ann:That’s pretty deep!

Jordan:That’s pretty deep! But that kid is freed from the bucket-list burden. He’s going to be free to spend his wealth on others rather than himself. He doesn’t have a bucket list; he doesn’t need to see everything. He believes he’s going to have billions of years to see everything, free from wildfires, free from the curse of sin, free from delayed flights. He’s got eternity to do those things; he’s free to lose his life, because he’s caught this biblical vision of the eternal reward that’s waiting for us: life on a perfect earth, with Christ, exploring, and ruling, and working, and experiencing, and eating forever.

Ann:I even took our grandkids to the zoo—Dave and I did this past year—and seeing the animals, I said to them, “Won’t it be so fun to be able to pet these?…to ride these?”—just like the cover of your book, Jordan; there’s two kids riding on lions. “Can you imagine that we can be right in the face of these wild animals?” I think it’s so good to paint a picture to our grandkids and our kids of what this will be like. And they’re like, “Wait; what?!” I’m like, “Yeah, that’s what the Scripture says: ‘The lion will lay down with the lamb’; there it is.”

Jordan:Isaiah 11:6.

Ann:I think one of my favorite pictures that’s illustrating your book is this huge lion licking the face of this child, and there are these two lambs laying down with them. This little girl is just laughing—her head back, laughing—says: “So don’t think for one second that heaven is boring; because we’ll be reigning, creating and exploring, not just for our joy, and surely not for our glory, but to love and to worship the One who is worthy. It’ll be so much better than your wildest dreams, ruling heaven on earth, next to Jesus, our King.” It just makes you cry thinking of that day; it will be absolutely incredible.

I love that you’re giving kids this picture of, not only—[unintelligible]—we can still create; we’re made to create on earth. But also, this next life won’t be boring. It will be the most exciting, exhilarating part of our entire life in history. This earth can’t even compare—when people say, “This is the afterlife,”—like, “Oh, let’s hope not; there’s so much more.”

Dave:I see what you’ve done here; I sniffed you out there, Jordan. Maybe, I’ve done this a couple times as a pastor. I’ve been to churches, where I’ve seen this done, where the pastor has the children come up. They kneel around him on the little steps there, and he gives the little five-minute children’s sermon. I’m like, “Oh, that wasn’t for the kids.”

Jordan:“It wasn’t for the kids.”

Dave:He’s talking to the kids, and they’re looking at him—”I don’t understand what you’re saying,”—and he says, “I’m using the kids to talk to the adults.”

Ann:Exactly.

Dave:That’s what you did.

Jordan:One hundred percent.

Dave:Obviously, this is for kids; and it’s beautiful. But as parents read this to their kids, they’re going to be/their minds are going to go, “Wait! What am I reading?”

Ann:Oh, yeah. And the illustrations—

Jordan:It’s all right from Scripture.

Jordan:That’s exactly what I’m doing; this is intentional. “I’m only cryptic and Machiavellian ‘cause I care”; that’s a Taylor Swift piece for the real fans out there. And by the way, to that end, I’m actually giving you away this little e-book for parents called Half Truths About Heaven to help you wrap your head around the Scripture.

Dave:Oh, that’s good; yeah.

Jordan:It’s at JordanRaynor.com/Kids. You don’t even have to buy The Royal in You to get it; you can get there for free. There’s also a devotional there called The Kids’ Guide to Heaven and the New Earth. It’s on the U version Bible app, but you could find a link to it at JordanRaynor.com/Kids.

Dave:Hey, we’ll put it on our app as well.

Jordan:Great.

Ann:We’ll put it on show notes too.

Jordan:And you walk through the Scripture that this book is based on. It also has artwork from the book, so it’s fun. It’s meant for you to read with your kids. It’s a great way to wrap your head around these biblical truths, again, to cultivate your hope, to cultivate your anticipation. And oh, by the way, to cultivate your faithfulness in the present. Randy Alcorn, in Heaven—the book that transformed my world on this topic 12/13 years ago—says something to the effect of: “Hey, Satan doesn’t need to convince us that heaven doesn’t exist. He need only convince us that heaven is a place of boring unearthly existence. Because if he can do that, he can rob us of our joy and anticipation. He can make us set our lives on this life rather than the next. And he’ll surely rob us of our motivation to share our faith.”

Those are the stakes. We’ve got to get our theology right on heaven and the new earth. And when you do, man, your kids are going to be more excited than ever about being with Jesus, our King; and you will too.

Ann:And you also always have some questions at the back of your books, so read us a couple of those questions.

Jordan:Yeah, let’s do it. Let’s do it; let’s read through a couple of these questions. These are questions I get from kids a lot, and I get from my kids a lot:

“Where is heaven?”—very simple question. Some people think of the clouds. The truth is we don’t know. What we do know: it’s, ultimately, here.

‘Will I know my mom and dad in heaven?” I’ve gotten this from a few kids that I’ve taught over the years. The answer is: “If you, and your mom and your dad are trusting in Jesus Christ alone for the forgiveness of your sins, yes, you’ll know them. Isaiah 65:23 says that: ‘On the new earth, Christians will not labor in vain for they will be a people blessed by the Lord, they and their descendants with them.’ Does that mean we’re going to live with our current families? I don’t know; I have no idea. But it’s clear we’ll know each other. We’ll, at least, know each other.”

I’ll do one more: “Are there animals in heaven?” We already talked about this.

Dave:Oh, yeah.

Jordan:Yes! There’s a bunch of verses that make this clear. Isaiah 11:6 says, “The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion, and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.”

“Is your dog who passed away going to be in heaven?” I don’t know; I have no idea.

Ann:“Yes”; the answer is “Yes.”

Jordan:I think so. Did you notice, in the book, there’s a dog, at the very beginning, with these kids before the new Jerusalem drops down from the sky?

Ann:Oh, yeah!

Jordan:And you see the dog show up later on.

Ann:It’s on every page! Oh, I didn’t notice that ‘til now.

Jordan:It’s Jon’s—

Ann:Wait. Not every page though—

Jordan:It’s in a lot of them.

Ann:—almost.

Jordan:You see the dog in the new earth, so make of that what you will.

Ann:But aren’t these great questions to talk about at the dinner table? It’s easy. I’m going to tell you: “If you’re a family, and your kids are on the phone at the dinner table, you guys are missing it! God has so much better. There’s so many more things you could talk about—this—even asking your kids/teenage kids, ‘What do you guys think heaven will be like?’” What a great question. And you could go through the questions in Jordan’s book. Any of his books, they all have these great questions to ask your family.

Dave:It’s good stuff; Jordan, this has been awesome. Seriously.

Ann:It’s always awesome.

Dave:Anytime you want to drive over from Tampa to Orlando—

Jordan:Dude, anytime.

Dave:—you can walk in here, and we’ll talk about something. I guarantee you’re creating something, because you have the Creator in you.

Jordan:That’s right.

Dave:Let me just say this: we love to help parents; this is a book that’ll help parents. If you’d like to get this book, and read it with your kids or grandkids, or even give it away as a gift, we’ll send it to for any amount given to FamilyLife; so send us a donation. This is a listener-supportive ministry; without you, we can’t do what we do. If you give a gift, we will send you Jordan’s book; you’ll love it. Your kids will love it; your grandkids will love it. Call us at 800-358-6329. That’s 800 F-as in Family, L as in Life, and the word, TODAY. Send us a donation; we’ll send you this book.

Ann:I don’t know about you; but I need parenting help, not just sometimes, but most of the time. Maybe, you feel like that too. We have resources to help you, as a parent. You can go to FamilyLife.com/ParentingHelp—and you’re going to find resources that will really help you, not just once in a while, but as much as you want—that’s the benefit. Again, you can go to FamilyLife.com/ParentingHelp.

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