The Silent Struggle of Fatherhood: Jerrad Lopes

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The Silent Struggle of Fatherhood

Guest:Jerrad Lopes

From the series:How to Become a Great Dad (Day 1 of 3)

Air date:February 26, 2025

Jerrad:It seems like “lonely” has become a feminine word; only women get to use that word: “I’m lonely.” I think that’s why most guys don’t have that as part of their vocabulary. But if you dig a little deeper, underneath all the symptoms of what guys are feeling, I’m like, “Dude, you’re lonely.”

Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave:And I’m Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave:Alright; you know I’m excited.

Ann:—because we have a superhero in the room?

Dave:We have a superhero; his name is Jerrad Lopes. He’s laughing; he’s like, “I’m not a superhero.” But you sort of—

Ann:He kind of is!

Dave:—you’re just a tired dad, right?

Jerrad:I feel like I’m especially tired today. Yeah, you misread the title; I’m not the hero. Or you clearly haven’t read the book or else you would’ve known that I’m not.

Ann:Oh, no; it says, “Did you know my daddy is a superhero?”

Jerrad:That’s true; yeah.

Dave:Well, if you can’t tell: we’re talking to Jerrad Lopes about—well, tell our listeners a little bit about what Dad Tired is—and really even how you got it started.

Ann:This is a great ministry, Jerrad.

Jerrad:Oh, thank you guys. Well, it’s always good to be back with you. I always feel like I’m at your kitchen table and just getting to hang out with friends.

Dave:Our table’s not quite this big.

Ann:It’s not quite; I wish it was this big.

Jerrad:Dad Tired started—I always say it’s like it was super unintentional—I had no plans of starting Dad Tired. It came out of the worst season of my marriage and, probably, my life. I had just come out of a failed church plant—was really dealing with identity stuff—I felt like I was failing in every way.

Instead of pressing in towards my wife, I pulled away from her to the point where I thought we were actually going to get a divorce. If you’ve been married for longer than three months, you’ve had weird ideas in marriage. Everyone has had weird thoughts go through their brain. But I remember sitting in my car, and pulling out my phone, and typing “Divorce lawyers near me.” When you take it out of your brain, and you put it in real life, I was like, “Oh, man.”

Dave:How long were you married at that point?

Jerrad:Maybe three years.

Dave:No kids?

Jerrad:We had two kids, a baby and a three-year-old.

Dave:That’ll do it.

Ann:Well, Jerrad, why did you pull away when all that happened?

Jerrad:During the failed church plant—as we were coming out of that—I came home. Literally, I got my last paycheck. It was very messy; it was terrible. I came home; and Leila said, “How did your meeting go?” I said, “I think I got fired.” She laughed; and I said, “No, I’m serious. I don’t know what we’re going to do.”

And she went into—Leila’s very Type A—“What are the details?” “Let’s figure this out: what are you going to do for work?” “What are the bills?” And I just felt like a scared boy. I wanted her—I didn’t know how to say this in the moment—but I think what I wanted her to do was just hug me, be like, “We’re okay. We’re going to figure this out. You got this.” She kind of went into panic mode and went detail-oriented. I went into panic mode and was just like, “Somebody tell me this is going to be okay, because I’m freaking out here.”

Ann:Did you feel like a failure, do you think?

Jerrad:Oh, absolutely; absolutely. I had a three-year-old and a one-year-old.

Dave:—insurance; you got everything you’re thinking about.

Jerrad:—groceries.

Dave:Did you walk out the door right then, for a break?—I mean, just to get away?

Jerrad:I don’t remember the details after that. I do know that that was the start of, very quickly, us pulling away from each other; me, specifically, pulling away.

A church had immediately offered, like, “Hey, come back and work with us.” I was like, “I don’t want to work for churches anymore. I’m tired of doing the church thing, so I’ll start businesses. I’ll go do my own thing.” And that really just led me into a dark/I isolated myself deep. Anyway, I’m in the car, and I’m Googling divorce lawyers near me. My son was three, which was the age I was when my dad left; so that was really messing with me too.

I go home—and Leila’s so much smarter than me—so when we get in a fight, it’s so annoying. I always say: “She’s playing chess; I’m playing checkers,” “I’m playing tic-tac-toe, and she’s playing chess.” Anyway, in that moment, I remember thinking to myself—I was just angry and bitter—and I thought, “I’m just going to be mean to her; I’ll just say mean things. That’s how I’ll win this argument instead of trying to be strategic.”

Ann:You’re consciously thinking this.

Jerrad:I consciously—yeah, I was probably 23, so my brain wasn’t fully developed—so if you give me that. I get in the room; she says something. I’m like, “Okay, this is going to be another fight.” Again, if you’ve been married longer than three months, you know when fights are coming. She says something to me; I’m like, “Alright”; I just start saying mean things: “We’re going to divorce,” “I’m leaving; I’m out of here,”—all this kind of stuff. She’s getting tears in her eyes. I was in such a dark, sinful season of life that I thought—I, literally, thought to myself—”I’m winning. I’m winning this argument.” I was happy to see her—what I thought was—losing the argument.

She looked at me, and she said, “Jerrad, I’ve been waking up every morning; I’ve been going in the living room, and I’ve been begging God to capture your heart again. I’m begging that God would bring you back to the man that I know you are.” I was ready to fight—I was ready to do whatever—but I was not ready for that. I was not prepared for my wife to tell me she’s been praying for me every [morning]. I was thinking about Romans—the kindness of God that leads us to repentance—it was the kindness of God that softened/broke all those walls down of anger and bitterness. That was really the start of God drawing my heart back to His and our marriage becoming restored.

I happened to write a blog. I’m giving you a very long-winded answer here.

Ann:No, this is interesting.

Dave:No, this is good.

Jerrad:I happened to write a blog very shortly after this, basically, just telling the story: “I felt like I was failing, as a husband and dad. My wife got up and was praying for me; I didn’t know that. And we’re still in the thick of/our marriage didn’t heal overnight. Now, we’re starting to restore.” That blog went viral—this was probably ten years ago—blog went viral. All these mommy blogs picked it up and started to share it on Facebook.

I wasn’t a blogger, nobody knew—my mom maybe read something I wrote on Facebook—but that kind of catapulted into guys reaching out, and saying, “Hey, man, I feel the same way. I feel like I’m failing, as a husband and dad; but I don’t want to give up.” Back then, especially, there were very few resources for men and for dads. Literally, guys were reaching out on Facebook. I just tried to channel them into a Facebook group. Facebook said, “What do you want to name the group?” Tongue-in-cheek, I said, ‘Dad Tired,’ just being funny.

That was the start of how the ministry started, which was like,

I always say, “God tricked me back into ministry.” I had no plans to be doing a ministry again, especially ministry for men. That was ten years ago; and now, we have hundreds of thousands of guys; and we’re part of it. So it’s cool.

Dave:It’s amazing.

Ann:Are you liking it?

Jerrad:—Dad Tired?

Ann:Yes.

Jerrad:I love it. I think God put me in my sweet spot: I love ministry, but I’m not built for the church—too many meetings—I don’t like meetings: just meet, and meet, and meet, and meet. I’m like, “Come on; let’s go do something.” Dad Tired really allows me—I think most people who get into ministry love to see the life-change—that’s why you initially get in; and then, you kind of get caught up in all the stuff that it takes to run a church. I get to just do the life-change stuff. I get to hear real-life stories of guys overcoming addiction, marriages restored.

Ann:You have seen some real transformation.

Jerrad:Oh, my gosh, weekly.

Ann:Really?

Jerrad:A big part of it is the community.

Ann:—that you have within this group.

Jerrad:Guys meeting other guys—confessing sin, sharing life, sharing their struggles—and pushing each other to be those men God’s called them to be.

Dave:And they do a lot of that through their group online?

Jerrad:Yeah; we have a free online group, but we also encourage guys to find other Dad Tired guys locally; and even those guys are now getting their wives involved. I don’t want to waste your time: but the stories of guys, who randomly found the ministry—jumped in with a bunch of strangers—ended up having life-change, and said, “We need to get our wives together.” Then their wives start getting together—kids get together—then there’s life-change with them. I mean, just—

Dave:That’s awesome.

Jerrad:—incredible stuff.

Ann:I know we’re going to talk about your kids’ book, but let me ask you guys—

Dave:No; ask Jerrad. Don’t ask me.

Ann:No, I’m going to ask both of you; because Dave, this is a passion for you too. “Do guys feel alone in terms of being a dad and a husband?”

Dave:Yes!

Jerrad:Yeah; I’ve heard one guy in my life say, literally, one time in my life, a guy tell me, “I feel lonely”; but I’ve met hundreds of men who are lonely and don’t know how to/they would never associate loneliness with all the things that they’re feeling.

Ann:Interesting.

Jerrad:I think lonely—I would love to hear your thoughts on—but it seems like “lonely” has become a feminine word; only women get to use that word: “I’m lonely.” I think that’s why most guys don’t have that as part of their vocabulary. But if you dig a little deeper, underneath all the kind of symptoms of what guys are feeling, I’m like, “Dude, you’re lonely.”

Ann:What do you think their word would be?—“frustrated”?

Dave:My first thought is: “Alone.” We feel alone. Lonely does feel like—I don’t know—but I feel alone. I’ve done a talk many times with men, where I say, “Men have LATS—we talk about getting in the gym and building our lats—we’re Lonely, Angry, Tired, Spiritually-depleted or Spiritually-isolated.” When I say that from a stage, you can see the room going, “Yeah,” to every one of those.

There’s this sense: “I feel sort of by myself.” And some of it’s even: “…separated from my wife; because she wants me to be this guy, and I’m not really measuring up. So I’m sort of alone, and I don’t have a lot of guys I talk to about it. I keep it to myself so that I’m alone; I’m sort of angry about it. Sometimes it comes out in real anger; but most of the time, it’s just sort of underneath the surface. I’m dad tired.”

Dad tired is perfect because you feel exhausted—trying to work, and provide, and take care of things—and then, you’re supposed to be the husband and dad. And then, spiritually, because of all that, you sort of pull yourself away. You’re not filled, and you’re not energized. Again, I don’t know.

Ann:It’d be an interesting question for a wife to ask a husband—not “Are you lonely?”—but “Do you feel alone sometimes?”

Dave:That’s a good way of saying it.

Dave:And a lot of it’s our fault. We need to go get men in our lives, and we sort of are afraid.

Jerrad:It’s so hard. Most guys would say they don’t feel like they have a real friend that they could share honestly with.

Ann:Well, and as I’ve followed some of your stuff, Jerrad, the thing I’m struck by is it seems like most dads and husbands want to be good. They want to be a good husband and a good dad. Do you think that’s true?

Jerrad:Yes. I think that the intentionality is super high. The skills to have real friendship is low. You could get five guys in a room, especially in the Christian community, most of these guys are like: “I want to be the man God’s calling me to be.” To be shifting the conversation to that, nobody in the room really knows how to do that; but if somebody does, it just—

Ann:—opens it up?

Jerrad:Yeah. We did a retreat. [Previously,] one guy came and joined our free online community; he shared vulnerably: “I’m struggling with addiction, specifically, to pornography.” One other guy said, “Me too; let’s meet together on Zoom every Saturday morning to encourage each other.” Other guys in the community got wind of it; I think there was like 13 guys every Saturday morning on Zoom, around the country, were meeting each other virtually—sharing, confessing sin—sharing stuff.

They all met each other for the first time at our Dad Tired retreat. They met at 7:00 am on Saturday: “Hey, we’re brothers”; we’ve been meeting every week,”—camaraderie. Three guys walked by, said, “What are you guys doing?” They told them, “We’ve been meeting every week.” They said, “Can we join?” Those three guys jumped in: confessed; shared. I told that story the next day at the retreat; 20 more guys showed up the next morning.

Ann:Come on.

Jerrad:That’s what I mean: one guy stepped up. That all started because one guy was vulnerable; and now, you have 20-plus guys—or however many guys—meeting every week. But it just took one guy to shift the conversation.

Dave:Now, go back to your wife’s praying that you’ll be the man that you were. How did you become that guy again? How’d you get your fire back with Jesus?

Jerrad:I did the thing that I don’t think any guy wants to do, and that’s sign up to go to counseling. I told you I met one guy who said he was lonely. I don’t know if I met any guy, who said, “I want to go to counseling.” It just feels like, “Well, I already know I’m not doing great as a man; so why do I need to pay somebody to tell me I’m not doing great as a man? That feels like a waste of money.”

But I swallowed my pride and went to counseling; that helped. The first thing counselors asked, within the first couple sessions, is: “Tell me about your childhood,” or “…your dad.” I’m like, “Come on. I don’t want to deal with this.” My dad bailed, and that had a lot to do with my own wounds. I think, even in that moment, just saying, “I wanted my wife to hug me,”—if you could put language to that—there was an open wound that felt poked, like, “Oh, am I good enough? Do I have what it takes to get us out of this mess?” I was really scared. Those were internal subconscious questions I was asking myself. Counseling helps you figure out where those wounds pop up and what pokes them. So that was a big one.

The other one was: I really isolated myself. I pulled away from every Christian friendship that I currently had in my life.

Dave:And you were on a church staff.

Jerrad:—right before that; yeah.

Dave:So you had people in your life.

Jerrad:Oh, I had lots of people who would’ve loved to step into—friends—but when you’re in darkness, you don’t want to be around light. I didn’t want to be around anyone; but I especially didn’t want to be around light, because there was a lot of darkness in me.

Ann:Hey, I think what we’re talking about is great! As you’re listening, if there’s something on today’s episode that you’re just clicking with, we want you to know that you’re not alone; because every single marriage has its fair share of highs, but also lows.

Dave:And if you’re like us, you’re wondering, “Where do we get help?”

Ann: Exactly.

Dave:“Where can we go to get help?” Well, first of all, you’re getting help right now; and we’re thankful that you’re listening. But we also want to share one of our favorite resources: it’s a free guide that’s filled with helpful marriage wisdom from real-life couples, who’ve been where you are. You can grab your free copy—free copy today—at FamilyLife.com/MarriageHelp; that’s FamilyLife.com/MarriageHelp.

Ann:It’s so sweet how God puts us together, as a team, in marriage because you were hurting. I’m sure that Leila had hurt you; you had hurt Leila. But just her words—“I’ve just been praying every morning for you,”—isn’t that crazy how that just broke down all those walls?—the power we have, as wives. But also, the power we have, as men—both together—when we’re working together, hand in hand. There’s power when we trust God with that.

Jerrad:Leila would say, “I had used all my resources as far as I had tried everything.”

Ann:She didn’t know what else to do.

Jerrad:She was just so desperate. She’s like, “I’m being reasonable.” Leila has an annoying ability to not be emotional, not fight with her emotions. She can set her emotions aside, and just say, “Let’s approach this logically.” And that makes me even more mad; it makes me more emotional. I’m the emotional one in the relationship, so it made me more angry.

She said, “I’ve approached him reasonably. I’ve done everything; I’ve talked to him. He knows all the Christian—what am I going to do? Tell him a Bible verse? —she’s just like, ‘I’ve done it. All I can do is plead with God: “You’re the only One who can change his heart.”’”

Ann:It’s so funny too; because when we tell people: “Pray for them; pray for your spouse”; it’s like, “Okay, but what else?” But you’re saying that prayer—and we would say that too—God hears!

Jerrad:Well, otherwise, as a spouse, what you’re really hoping is: “Hopefully, I can talk you into behavior change.”

Ann:Oh, yes.

Jerrad:That’s all it is; right?

Ann:Jerrad, I am really good at trying to talk Dave into that.

Dave:How’s it working?

Jerrad:What I needed was not behavior change. I didn’t need her to tell me: “Here are the five things I need you to do to behave better.”

Ann:You already knew what they would be.

Jerrad:Yeah; I needed heart change. And she got to the point, where she said, “I can’t change his heart. How am I going to change his heart? There’s only one heart-changer; that’s the Holy Spirit.”

I would say that to anyone listening: “If you’re struggling in a marriage with a spouse who has wandered, or is far from God, [they] need heart change, not behavior change. And there’s only one heart-changer.”

Ann:That’s good.

Dave:So we opened this broadcast saying we’re going to talk about your children’s book. Tell us about that. I did not know you’re going to do that; and now, it’s out. What was the vision behind that?

Jerrad:Well, I have four kids. I heard my five-year-old—I think she was three at the time—she and her neighbor friends were arguing about whose daddy was best. She said something to the effect of: “My daddy knows everything,” or “My daddy can do anything.” I’m like, “That is so cute; I love that. I love that she thinks that.”

But I know/I laughed to myself, also, knowing, “That’s so not true. I don’t know how to do most things; I don’t know everything.” I just thought, “Man, I love that I’m her hero; but she needs a better hero than me.” That was my—I quickly tied those thoughts—and thought, “I just want to write a book for her, specifically, and for my kids. It’s like: ‘You need someone better than Daddy; Daddy will eventually fail you.’”

Ann:I love that beginning: “Did you know my daddy is a superhero? He’s big, and he’s strong. My daddy creates forts out of blankets or even in a tree.” So you do see that—the child is saying, “My daddy is…”; but you wanted it to switch.

Jerrad:Well, what’s funny—this was so intentional about that children’s book—if you can see the pictures of it. “My daddy’s big and strong. He can build forts,”—if you look at everything that the child is saying about her daddy—I am doing—or the dad is doing all those things—

Dave:It does look like you.

Ann:It does look like you.

Jerrad:—but it’s always, if you look closely, it’s kind of a mess—his shoe’s untied; the fort isn’t straight—things aren’t level.

Ann:Ohh; oh, yeah.

Jerrad:If you look at: “My daddy can fix my owies,”—my shoe’s untied there—or “He fixes my bike in the garage,”—there’s a saw there; it’s like stuff/tools he wouldn’t even use; and I’m sweating.

The illustration that I was trying to get at is: “Yes, I can do these things, but not perfectly. There’s only one perfect Father here in this family.”

Ann:I didn’t see all of that before.

Jerrad:I know I should have made it more—it’s those little subtleties—

Ann:No, but you’re right.

Dave:That’s right; you can see it all now.

Jerrad:—from a child’s eyes: “My daddy’s perfect”; but from our eyes, I’m not perfect.

Ann:Yeah, I like the grimace on your face as you’re trying to fix the bike.

Jerrad:And that’s kind of every dad, like, “Sure, I’ll build you a fort.” But the thing’s going to—I, literally, built my kids a fort recently—they think it’s amazing. But if anyone, who knows what they’re doing, would look at that: “This is not up to code, for sure.”

Dave:I built a fort in a tree. I went and got the stair treads. I put them on, and it’s all great. I put a little rail; it was like a deck. The first time my kids went up, they go, “Dad, why is the stairs so steep?” I’m like, “What are you talking about?” I did it backwards; it was backwards! I had to rip it off and flip it over. It’s like you had to fall down the stairs.

Jerrad:To their eyes, it is like, “My dad’s out there, building a fort.” And you’re like, “I’m putting things on backwards.”

Ann:—”I don’t even know what I’m doing.”

Jerrad:—”I don’t know what I’m doing.”

That’s really the goal of the book is to—the first half of the book is the hero is the dad in the child’s eyes—but the dad says, “But did you know even daddies have heroes?” And the child says, “Who’s your hero?” And now, we’re flipping everything that the child thought was amazing about the dad. The dad says, “This is even more amazing about God. I provide for you, but we have a better Provider. I build you things; God built the whole universe.” It goes on to make these parallels between a human father and God the Father.

Ann:That’s good. So you go through the exact same thing: “My Hero is big and strong. My Hero created the whole world from nothing.” That’s really sweet.

Dave:I’m thinking about dads laying in beds at night, with their kids, reading this probably over and over.

Jerrad:Yeah; it’s been cool. I think I’ve heard a lot of feedback that kids are really enjoying the book, but I really wrote it for the dad.

Ann:Yeah, you did.

Jerrad:Honestly, I wrote it for the dad—to say: “Hey, man, you’re carrying a lot on your shoulders; but it’s okay to point your kids to the real hero of the family.”

Ann:I love the picture of God holding your hand—the man’s hand—saying, “My Hero picks me up and carries me when I fall down.”

Jerrad:Yeah; there’s another little subtle thing in there. I think the dad’s paying the bills.

Dave:Yeah, I’m looking at it right now.

Jerrad:There’s a sparrow there He even takes care of. It’s all these little/just like we recognize Who the real Provider is here.

Ann:Did you come up with all that, Jerrad?

Jerrad:Well, I did.

Ann:Look at you! You’re like a creative too.

Dave:I missed the sparrow sitting right there on the window sill; and now, it’s all you can see.

Jerrad:Yeah; I was trying to add all these little subtleties to just really point out that there’s only one perfect One here and tie into Scripture. It’s fun. I had never written a children’s book before, but I had a lot of fun doing that.

Dave:You think there’s more in your future?

Jerrad:I’d love to. Yeah, I need more people to buy the book; so my publishers will say, “We could do more.”

Ann:Did you guys hear that? “We need more people to buy the book.”

I think the thing I love about that is that—hopefully, the goal is that our kids would remember that your parents are always going to fail you; your siblings, your friends, your spouse—but God will always be there, and He won’t fail you if you let Him.

Dave:—even your own dad.

Jerrad:That was honestly the biggest point that I’m trying to make in that book is: “Everyone who lives under this roof needs Jesus, even Daddy,”—especially Daddy—”but even Daddy,” for our kids.

Dave:That something you do with your kids?—lay in bed at night, read books? I know you’ve got older ones now.

Jerrad:Yeah, so I’m going to be real honest here. Bedtime is the least spiritual time in my household. Before I had kids, I thought I had all these grandiose ideas of what bedtime would look like. I think I lose my salvation probably three to five nights a week in my house. I texted my wife last night—I got in here last night—I said, “How’s it going?” She’s like, “Just your typical bedtime—chaos, mayhem—over here.” Our kids just lose their minds.

Ann:And you have these expectations—and especially for us, having three boys, five and under—it was wild.

Jerrad:—wild.

Dave:We’ve got little videos of it; and you’re just like, “How did we survive?”

Ann:I know. And it starts out really fun: “Oh, hey; Dave’s flying across the room like they’re Superman.” And then, they can’t settle down. And then, it always gets to the point where now I’m mad at the kids; and now, it ends. Then, you go to bed: “Why did I get all mad about that?”

Jerrad:Okay, I’m going to say something they’re probably going to edit out of this show—so forgive me ahead of time—but for a man, you only have two things on your mind at night.

Dave:What are those two things?

Jerrad:You can take that, as a listener, however you want to take that.

Ann:—prayer.

Jerrad:—prayer and the Word of God. You’re doing everything you can to put those little kids to bed so that you might get a few minutes alone with your wife. And of course, the kids are just—

Ann:—crazy.

Jerrad:—crazy. Come into our room 1500 times: “Do not come back into this room”; they’ll come back in.

So to answer your question: yes, there are nights where sometimes I will read to my kids. But the most spiritual conversations I’ve ever had with my kids are very, very rare at bedtime. It’s usually organic conversations throughout the day; I’m trying to point their eyes back to Jesus.

Ann:I think that’s just some good advice. We’re all different, as parents, so don’t keep all the guilt on yourself if nighttime isn’t your time. But it is good to figure out when that time is; because it’s easy for a day to go by—for all of us—where nothing happens.

Nights were my time, man. I loved the nights with our kids. Dave didn’t, because he was probably thinking about something else. But I loved those times!

Dave:I was thinking about watching sports—

Ann:—as they got older.

We had some really deep conversations, where we just lay in bed. And the good thing about little kids too, for me, is that they didn’t want to go to sleep. So when they weren’t super crazy—they’re a little older—they would have some deeper conversations.

Jerrad:I have two sets in my four kids: I have a 13-year-old and 11-year-old; and a 5-year-old and a 3-year-old. I will say that, with the 5-year-old and 3-year-old, I have learned—because there was a 5-year gap in between those two—I know that these are my last babies, and I am cherishing.

I wish I would’ve cherished that time more with my older ones. But I do get teary-eyed, from time to time, thinking, “This is…”—these are the moments of, I think in one week, I threw out diapers and took her crib down for my baby. I didn’t realize that’s what was happening. She got potty trained; and then, she wanted to share a room with her older sister.

I took the crib down. My wife came into the room, and I was disassembling the crib; and she just started bawling. Wow. She’s like, “My baby. What’s—in just days?—my baby’s gone.” I am learning to appreciate those moments; I already miss it.

Dave:Yeah. Well that’ll come back around in grandkids.

Jerrad:I’m looking forward to that. Honestly, that feels like the prize. We will talk more about the things that dads—good dads do—and that’s one of the prizes for me.

Ann:Yeah, it’s fun.

Dave:So what we are excited to offer our listeners is—we’re a listener-supported ministry—so as a listener, makes a donation—as you make a donation—

Ann:—of any amount.

Dave:—as you make a donation of any amount, we are going to send you Jerrad’s children’s book, My Daddy’s Hero. It’s a great book. You’ve heard about it; you’re going to want it. You’re probably going to get a lot more, but we’ll send you one.

Ann: And now, you’re going to notice the secrets in it:—

Dave:—which I missed all of those.

Ann:—the sweat, and the shoe untied, the sparrow.

Dave:Yes, so go to FamilyLifeToday.com; you can get it there. Or call us at 800-358-6329. That’s 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and the word, TODAY.

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