We Survived 7 Brutal Years—and Found Friendship | Matt & Lauren Chandler

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson; Podcast Transcript
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We Survived 7 Brutal Years—and Found Friendship

Guests: Matt and Lauren Chandler
Release Date: July 3, 2025

Matt: We were never, neither one of us were ever interested in playing Pastor and First Lady. We’re very much human beings first, children of God. And that means we’re being sanctified. I still say the first seven years of our marriage were brutal. And you would see some people, you can see new people in the crowd be like— The number of people that were like “The second you said that I knew I could be here.”
Dave: Alright, so we’re on the road. FamilyLife Today on the road. I don’t know where we are. Where are we?
Matt: You are in Highland Village, Texas; a suburb of Dallas.
Dave: I thought we’re in Flower Mound.
Matt: No, that’s directly across the street.
Lauren: It’s across the street. It’s so close.
Ann: We’re all like—
Dave: Did you know where we were?
Ann: I’m just following you wherever we go.
Dave: We are sitting in Matt and Lauren Chandler’s family room, right? Is that what—we’re in your church.
Matt: Yeah, this is the student building.
Dave: Was this the original church though?
Matt: This was. The original, it’s just like an old ranch style building right there that I can see. Nobody else can but well, Lauren. That was the original. This was built in ‘86 and now we’re about a mile down the road in a storefront.
Dave: Now when you were first preaching, was it here?
Matt: It was right here.
Dave: Really?
Matt: Yep.
Dave: Wow.
Ann: And is this only for students now?
Matt: Really students pretty much are here, but it’s about to get an upgrade and then young adults and men’s, it’ll have all sorts of fun things to do. And so for now though, this is students. There’ll be hundreds of them here tonight.
Ann: Really cool.
Matt: Yeah.
Ann: Isn’t this fun to get to interview them? We’ve always wanted to be with Matt and Lauren.
Matt: And here we are.
Ann: Here we are.
Dave: And I’m sure you’ve always wanted to be with us too.
Matt: I feel pressure. Well, we were just talking about that a couple weeks ago, life plan. We were like, if we can—
Dave: Dave and Ann Wilson, that old couple,
Matt: —if we can this year.
Lauren: No, we are honored. We are so honored.
Dave: Well, give us a little bit of your history, not just the church, but your marriage. I know you got three kids. They’re old now, which means you’re old.
Lauren: He’s old.
Ann: You’re not Lauren.
Lauren: I remind everybody I’m much younger than he is.
Ann: I do too.
Matt: I don’t think you have to say it. I think it’s pretty clear just looking at us. It’s either that or he’s lived really hard. No, we’ve been married 25, almost 26 years.
Ann: This is a big one so you just—
Matt: We just celebrated 25. This is 26.
Lauren: It was an interesting summer. I think we’re actually going to celebrate it this coming summer.
Matt: I’ve got a surprise for her.
Ann: Do you?
Lauren: A surprise.
Matt: I do, not saying anything because it’s a surprise.
Dave: You’ve got a surprise?
Matt: I’ve got a surprise.
Lauren: Yeah, so I don’t want to know yet.
Matt: I’m surprising her.
Lauren: I want to be surprised.
Matt: That’s right. And now that’s risky. You surprise a woman like Lauren, it’s risky because it could—
Ann: But she likes it.
Lauren: I do like surprises.
Matt: She likes the surprise but then once the surprise is there—
Lauren: Surprise me but read my mind.
Dave: It better be the right surprise.
Matt: I’m glad I have a good prophetic gift.
Dave: I surprised Ann one time. She was visiting her sister something for like a week. I got my buddy Rob and said, “We’re painting the family room.” We watched Hoosiers. We painted the family room. She comes walking and we’re like, “Watch this.” I filmed it and Rob’s like, “She didn’t like it.”
Ann: I was like, “Oh.”
Dave: She hated it. She didn’t just like it. That’s right. You never know.
Matt: I would never touch the house. I grew up—
Dave: I was young.
Matt: —white walls, overhead lights. I mean, that’s how I grew up. I never lived in a house that had paint on the walls or a lamp. And Lauren, one of our adjustments is beauty matters to Lauren in a way I did not grow up with.
Lauren: Ambience.
Ann: Yes.
Matt: So I had to learn to walk through a dark room to try to find a lamp even though there’s a switch right here.
Lauren: We have compromised on dimmer switches on our overhead lights.
Matt: There we go.
Lauren: So yeah, you can flip it on, but don’t have it full power unless you’re looking for something.
Matt: There we go. There’s compromise.
Dave: I’ve learned. I’ve learned the same thing. And I literally wipe off every kitchen counter and bathroom counter. I can’t stand spots because she’s trained me.
Matt: I feel some of that.
Dave: I don’t do the toilet, but we still do that.
Lauren: That’s great.
Matt: My guess is you are the one that’s messing the toilet anyway. But anyway, that’s probably too much for the podcast.
Dave: Yeah, too much for FamilyLife Today.
Ann: Okay, so kids.
Matt: So we’ve got three kids. Our oldest is married. She’s been married for about a year. Then we have a 19-year-old son who’s in school and working. And then we have a 15-year-old daughter, so we are—who was it, PAO with me last time I saw you guys.
Dave: I saw you guys walking through the lobby.
Matt: Just a tall, beautiful, gregarious, wonderful soul.
Ann: How great.
Matt: Yeah, they’re great hangs.
Ann: Are you feeling that as they’re getting older? You’re not that far away from being empty nesters.
Dave: Which is awesome, by the way.
Matt: No, no, no, we’re not. I don’t think we’re nervous about it.
Lauren: Well, they’ve kind of stuck close. I’m not sure about the third born. She’s talking about California, Florida, and I’m like, “Okay, we’ll just come visit you.” But the other two, they like being around. And so it’s kind of neat to see them grow into their own and become adults and to watch them have to adult.
Ann: I’d want to hang out with you guys. Maybe we should move here.
Lauren: Hey, come on.
Dave: I’m not moving to Texas.
Matt: No.
Dave: I love snow and minus 10-degree Michigan. It’s awesome.
Matt: You’re not going to get it here.
Lauren: Now Michigan summer—
Ann: He’s kidding.
Matt: Like three days of it here. You get three days of ten. Yeah. We have begun to—I was just talking to somebody yesterday. It’s just like this new season where there have been rhythms and disciplines in place so that we can be the kind of mom and dad and husband and wife and friends that we want to be.
And it just feels like—I’d never had email on my phone until recently because I didn’t want—I had this process where I’d put my hands on my desk with thank God that He was going to keep working because ministry is never done. I’m building a deck, and I can be like “The deck’s done. Let me go home and have a beer and watch the game.” There’s always something, always a crisis, always. So I’d put my hands on my desk. I would thank God that he was going to keep working and I didn’t have to. And then I’d drive home and then I had a little driveway prayer because I never knew what I was walking into when the kids were little. They have Chandler blood, which is, it’s destructive and energetic.
Lauren: Lots of energy.
Matt: Lots of energy.
Ann: We have three sons; we understand.
Matt: Three boys will do it. We at least got the two girls. But then, yeah. Yeah, that’s probably over spoken. So I would have this little prayer in the driveway because I didn’t know what I was walking into. I would just try to remind my heart; it’s been given to me and me alone to be Lauren’s husband and these kids’ daddies.
My friend JR Vassar always called it second shift. You’re not done when you get home. It’s like second shift and your second shift’s usually more important ultimately than your first one. And so I had that kind of second shift mentality, “How can I walk in and be helpful?” Imperfectly executed, oh my gosh, imperfectly executed. But yeah, so now we’re in a season where there’s rarely chaos when I come home. We just have a 15-year-old.
Lauren: Or if there’s anyone there at all.
Matt: That would be a big thing.
Lauren: She’s about to drive and her friends are driving and so she’s kind of got her own social life.
Matt: Total extrovert: wants to go, likes to play.
Dave: I mean Lauren, is that how it lived out? I’d love to talk marriage in ministry. We did it and we almost lost our marriage the year we started our church. I was planting this church and obsessed, couldn’t see it. I wanted to do what Matt, you just said. But I often just, I prayed that prayer and then I walked in the house and brought it with me.
And then she’s like, “You’re not even here.” And I’m like, “Yeah, I’m not. I really want to be over there anyway.” And we almost lost our marriage. So it’s hard. It never turns off. You’re passionate about it and it’s the kingdom of God. And she felt like she couldn’t compete with that. So how’s that been for you guys? From day one has it been hard or good or easy or all the above?
Lauren: All of the above. I would say at first when we got to the church and this building that we’re sitting in right now—
Dave: Were you early married?
Lauren: I was 22, pregnant with our first child and he was 28.
Dave: He is an older man, isn’t he?
Lauren: Yeah, he is. I told you.
Matt: She likes to bring that up. She like to bring it up.
Lauren: I was much younger.
Matt: I don’t know that we’ve ever done one of these that that didn’t come out. That’s actually later than it usually comes out. Usually it’s first thing; you don’t even ask her. She’s like, “I’m six years younger.”
Lauren: Anyway, so I was becoming a new mom. We’d been married for a couple years, so it was all very new.
Matt: Weren’t doing well.
Lauren: Yeah, it was a tough—
Dave: What do you mean you weren’t doing well, just struggle?
Matt: We had a really rough first seven years.
Lauren: We did.
Matt: Really rough.
Lauren: Yeah, I think we were still maturing, clearly. And we had a lot of baggage, and he had more than I did, but I had plenty and it looked just prettier.
Matt: I like to say that Lauren came into the marriage with a backpack of baggage and I came in—
Lauren: —maybe a carry on.
Matt: I came in with, you would need a pretty powerful locomotive to pull my baggage.
Dave: Very similar, yeah.
Lauren: It’s okay.
Ann: We were similar, 25 and 20 years.
Dave: I mean you had six more years to live so—
Matt: Yeah, that’s what I’m saying. Those are hard years.
Lauren: That’s right.
Ann: So a lot of people are listening to that thinking, “We have so much baggage, we don’t even know what to do with it. There’s so much. How do you even start?”
Lauren: Yeah, I think we made solid attempts at first that were a little bit misguided I would say. Some of it was for me, “Okay, I just need to try harder, pray more, read my Bible more. I just need to be better.” And in my journals like, “Lord, help me be a better wife,” all these things, without really getting to the heart of what I was experiencing, where it was this desire to be good. If I’ve struggled with my whole life, it’s with perfectionism and people pleasing and performing. What do you want me to do? I can do it. And that’s even how I was with the Lord of just being, earning and performing His love. And so I would say, gosh, it wasn’t until our second was born when I was 25, I started going to celebrate recovery at our church.
Dave: Did you really?
Lauren: We were starting a recovery program, Celebrate Recovery.
Dave: Most honest people in the church.
Lauren: Everybody, everybody should go.
Matt: No doubt.
Ann: There’s not a person that shouldn’t go.
Lauren: They’re not hiding, and I was like—he had gone through counseling. I had done some counseling, but I was 25, had a three-year-old, maybe I had a baby at that point, our second born. And I just had hit a wall where I was like, “I cannot do it anymore.” I am trying to get at these deep-seated insecurities in my heart that just were not coming out. And I was like, “I’m going to go to Celebrate Recovery.” And the man who was teaching—
Dave: Which is pretty crazy, the pastor’s wife—
Lauren: The pastor’s wife.
Dave: —is showing up there. I don’t know another pastor’s wife that’s ever done that.
Ann: I love it.
Lauren: To be fair, it was kind of the big kickoff and so Matt had invited everyone to come to Celebrate Recovery. And so I was like, “I’m going to go.”—sitting in the front row and hearing the man speak on these—he gave an illustration of this beautiful field that the Lord wanted to plant, but there are all these weeds in it. And the person was trying to pull the weeds up and they’re mowing over it, but nothing was working. He was reading my mail. I was like, “Yeah, nothing’s working for me. I don’t know how to do this.”
At the end he kind of gave this altar call, this opportunity to just surrender. And you would go up there and you pick up this poker chip and you’d hug somebody and then you go back to your seat. And I remember thinking, “I want to surrender. I’ve tried and I cannot do it.” I think I understood as best I could, the grace of God, but it really had not penetrated my heart. I believe I knew the Lord and I had a relationship with Him. I was eight years old when I got saved, but I was still bound up in a lot of perfectionism and people pleasing.
And that day I remember the opportunity passed and I was so mad at myself. So like, “Oh, why didn’t I do it?” But all these things were playing in my head. “You’re the pastor’s wife. What are people going to think?” And so it came back around at the very end—they offered it one more time—and you could not hold me down. I was going straight up there. But I think that was the beginning of breakthrough for me and healing, complete healing in our marriage.
Ann: Could you see it, Matt?
Matt: Well, I was such a jerk at the time and I’m being honest, where she’s like, “I just need to pray harder. I just need to be better.” And I’m thinking, “Yeah, yeah, you do.” Because I mean, I’m telling you to my shame because every other area of my life is gold. I mean, every other area of my life was gold. I am beloved here. I am traveling and preaching and then there’s this area of my life that’s broken and cold and I didn’t, I was just like, “Yeah. Yes, let me pray for you.” I mean, it was so awful, and I said awful things.
But there was this moment of grace where I was being a baby. I mean, I was just being a baby. And we were in my kitchen and I’m like, “I’m not going to be—” I made a covenant with God. It’s so terrible. I’m just like, I’m not going to be my dad. I’m not going to be explosive. I’m just not going to be that. So what I would do when I was upset is just get icy, which is just such a, I mean, golly, such a baby. And I was frustrated for something that didn’t even make sense, something I’d made, a story I was telling myself that wasn’t true.
I’m in the kitchen and I’m just ignoring, being icy towards her and she’s like, “Are you okay?” “Well, I’m fine. I’m fine.” I think I’m winning. That’s what’s crazy? I’m not exploding.
Ann: “I’m winning.”
Matt: I’m doing amazing here. I’m the fricking best husband ever because I’m not screaming. I’m not—
Ann: I’m not my dad.
Matt: That’s right. That was the way, it’s anti-vision rather than vision. So I didn’t know this is the kind of husbands God’s calling me to. I was going, “I won’t be this.” It’s just a surefire way to become that—
Ann: Yeah.
Matt: —just a little bit different. So you need vision to pull you forward. This is the kind of husband God’s calling me to. Now let me live into that.
Ann: That’s good.
Matt: Not I don’t want to be these things. I think you become those things. I think anti-vision leads you in that direction.
And so I’m in the kitchen, I’m just pouting and slamming and feeling sorry for myself. And she came around the island and just hugged me and just said, “Hey, I don’t know what’s going on in you, but I love you and I’m not going anywhere.” And I went—oh, this is a family program. I won’t tell you what I thought, but I was like, “Oh crap, it’s me. It’s not her, it’s me.”
Lauren: It was both of us.
Matt: But I could see clearly at that moment that all of the, “Yeah, yeah, get better at that” was gone in me and I was like, “No, no, no. I’ve got something broken in me.” And that’s when I went and started to get help. And then these things are starting to happen. And then now you’ve got to figure out, “Okay, how do we do this now?” We’ve been in this dance at that point, probably five years, and then the next two that we would say, seven, were hard. The next two were learning a new dance, learning how we’re going to fight, how we’re going to express ourselves, how vulnerable can we be? What can I actually trust you with?
Ann: Do you think every marriage, every person in marriage has to come to that realization, “Oh, it’s me”?
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: I think the best marriages do.
Ann: Yes, me too.
Matt: The best marriages do.
Ann: I was so prideful thinking if Dave would get his act together, we could be great. And then I had that think thinking, “Oh, it’s me.” It’s so humbling.
Dave: It was always me though.
Ann: But it’s both. That’s what I mean.
Dave: It always was.
Ann: I think that’s the start of getting rid of our baggage.
Matt: And it was wonderfully crushing.
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: It was wonderfully crushing.
Dave: And also in the ministry, your story is very similar because you can find your life outside the home.
Matt: No question.
Dave: Because you’re in a position where you have power and the lights are on you and you’re preaching and all that stuff. And I said to her, and it’s part of our story, and many of our listeners have heard it, but I didn’t say it to her in our kitchen. I said it to her on stage in front of a thousand women that she asked me to come speak with her at that. “I feel like everywhere I go outside the home I get cheered. I come home and I get booed.” I said that to the women. I try and say, “Hey ladies, this is how it feels for us.” I look over to Ann and she’s like, “What just happened?”
Ann: He’s never said that to me ever.
Dave: Can you imagine that drive home is like, “You think I’m booing you, I’m helping you.”
Ann: But there’s also that part of me where—
Dave: But that’s ministry.
Ann: —Lauren, you are more kind. You’re trying to be a perfectionist. I am the one that’s more verbal than Dave. So I’m like, “Oh, you think you’re so amazing. Dave, you’re so amazing. Maybe you could be that here.” So either way.
Dave: So what did it look like as you transitioned—
Ann: —to a new dance.
Dave: —seven years in and you’re starting this new dance?
Matt: Yeah, I think both of us were trying to grow and trusting each other with the parts of us that were super tender. And then learning “Oh gosh, that just triggered the heck out of me. What was that?”
Dave: Yeah, yeah, the root.
Matt: That is not personal and that felt deeply personal to me. I know her. I know she’s not trying to poke that. And so then it was just trying and failing at, “Hey.” Gosh, we’re still doing it. I mean, it just happened yesterday morning.
Ann: It’ll probably never end.
Matt: No. Yeah. But now we’ve got language. We got—
Dave: Tell us about yesterday morning.
Ann: Yeah, we want to hear.
Matt: So I can get, I can get just a low-grade agitation that’s not tied to anything. I have no idea.
Dave: Why are you poking me?
Matt: I think it has to do with expectations.
Dave: Yeah.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: And so this is a week for us. I mean, this is a long, full week.
Dave: And here we are.
Matt: Here we are. Just jam that in there.
Dave: Can we get you in here talking about your marriage?
Matt: So I woke up early and I had some things that I needed to get done. I’ve got deadlines that other people are waiting on. And so I got up early to kind of tackle that. And then Lauren got up. She actually got up earlier than I was expecting her to get up and came in and I got her coffee. That’s kind of a ritual.
Lauren: He’s very good at that. It’s so sweet.
Matt: And set her coffee by her Bible and her journal. Then I sat back down and then she was like, “Did I tell you about my conversation with Sarah yesterday?” And then I’m just thinking, “Oh my gosh, I have got—”
Lauren: I thought I waited long. I thought I waited for a good moment but apparently, I did not.
Matt: So then I know what’s right, but my heart and its knowledge of what’s right versus what it wants is a very real internal battle.
Ann: —for all of us.
Matt: And so I literally, shut my computer. I turned and faced her—
Ann: Wow!
Matt: —but in my head I’m thinking, “Surely this is over in three to five minutes.”
Lauren: Is it that long?
Matt: Listen, I don’t know. That’s what I’m telling you. The state of my heart was not such that I could take time. I’m just kind of—I’m looking at her in her face. I am not with her. I am not, man.
Lauren: You could have fooled me.
Matt: I am in my heart. I am in my heart going, “If I don’t get that done by the time I leave to do this, I am going to owe a lot of people an apology.” So I’m just, “Oh,” and then, “Okay.” I mean, I get it. “Oh, oh, all right.” And then that made me even—I mean, it just set this low-grade agitation. So then I’m snapping at Nora to get out of bed. She’s like “15 more minutes.” And I’m like, “No, you told me this was the time you wanted to get up. I’m not letting you switch the time. So feet on the floor.” And then I was just chirpy. I don’t think I was rude. I was just short.
Lauren: No, you were just short.
Matt: And so then I’m in the bathroom, I’m about to leave. I got the thing done and I was just like, “Hey, I’ve got that thing going on in me. It’s not about you. I’m just, like I can just feel I’m a little agitated. I’ve got a lot going on. I’ve got a lot.” We had to learn how to do that—
Ann: I like that language.
Matt: —in those two years.
Ann: “I’ve got that thing going on in there.” And as a married couple, you know it.
Matt: I don’t understand it. Yeah, she knows it. I don’t understand. What is that? I love this woman.
Ann: I said it to Dave at the airport a few days ago. I’m like, “Ooh, there’s something going on.” It’s that same thing. It just, he’s just snappy. And when it’s not about me, I can laugh at it.
Lauren: Right; oh yeah.
Dave: Yeah. It’s always like, “Is it about me?”
Ann: It’s not like, “Oh man.”
Dave: Well, you can help me with the other stuff. I mean, how did this Celebrate Recovery thing help you? It’s really funny. I preached Sunday at a church. I’m sort of new there. And this lady, one of the ushers, I was trying to do that “I’m going to go out in the lobby and meet people,” and so I’m doing it. I’m walking back in the auditorium and this woman goes, “Hey, I’ve been wanting to share this with you.” And she hands me the poker chip in Celebrate Recovery. I didn’t realize what it was, and I took it and left. I’m like, “Thanks.” And then she goes, “Wait, wait, wait. I’m just showing you that.”
Matt: That’s an Ebenezer.
Dave: It meant so much to her. I’m like, “Oh, thanks.” I put it in my pocket. She goes, “What is your problem?”
Matt: Do you know what that is?
Ann: Had no idea.
Dave: But that really changed something to help you way back?
Lauren: It did. I started—I went through the steps. I think as I grew up, First Baptist, Longview, Texas; it was wonderful home, church home to grow up in. But doing the chants that you do, kind of like AA, it was very—it was just unsettling, but in the best way where it felt uncomfortable. But I was like, “This is good for me to feel uncomfortable and to kind of shake things up of just what I do.
Dave: You went through the whole program.
Lauren: I went through steps. I led a group through steps. It was really freeing to kind of answer these questions in a confidential setting with people I didn’t really know well and to be vulnerable and for them to look at me. I mean, there were answers that I gave that I thought, “Surely they’re going to look at me like my head is coming off.” But they didn’t. They’re like, “Okay, thanks for sharing.” I was like, “Oh my gosh, I didn’t die. They didn’t run out the door.” So it was very freeing to be vulnerable.
And then just to have the grace of God actually meet my heart, to see the things that I thought were okay that weren’t okay, to try to be perfect, to try to be good. Isn’t that honorable? I was like, “No, Jesus did that for you.” And yes, do we want to live a life that pleases Him? Absolutely. But we cannot earn His love and His favor. He just gives it freely. And so that was something that I needed to work into my heart more deeply than I knew.
Dave: Yeah, that’s good. I saw an interview, I don’t know if you saw it maybe last year, Carey Nieuwhof with John Crist.
Lauren: Oh yes.
Dave: And John did that and he said every person should go through Celebrate Recovery.
Lauren: I totally believe it.
Matt: Our big tagline here at the Village is, it’s okay to not be okay, but God doesn’t leave us there. So we have a huge recovery culture here.
Dave: That’s awesome.
Matt: There have been seasons where it’s more of the front door than Sunday services. And almost every time we had mass baptisms where we were baptizing, not like stuff you see in the news, we never baptized like a thousand people on a Sunday. But when we would baptize 30, 40 people and they would read their testimonies, 80 percent of them came to recovery.
Ann: And I think you guys model that because you can say, “Go to Celebrate Recovery,” but what you model is that authenticity of just saying, “Man, we messed up this week just two days ago.” And I think people are relieved like, “Ah.”
Matt: Well, it doesn’t help anybody for me to stand up there and wear a cape. That’s not going to help anybody. It’s going to hurt them, and I won’t do it.
Ann: They hide.
Matt: I won’t do it.
Lauren: They do.
Matt: And so we have done a good job. And then I would just say, “I still say the first seven years of our marriage were brutal.” You would see some people, you can see new people in the crowd being like— I always have to go “My wife knows I’m saying that.” It wasn’t like she was laying bed next to me during that season going, “All my girlhood dreams have come true in this man.” We were both in a tough spot.
And then the number of people over, I’ve been here, it’ll be 23 years this year. The number of people that were like, “The second you said that I knew I could be here.” And so were never, neither one of us were ever interested in playing Pastor and First Lady. We’re very much human beings first, children of God, and that means we’re being sanctified.
Ann: Do you think all couples need a group where they can totally be themselves and reveal their struggle?
Lauren: I think so.
Matt: I think deep healing only takes place in community.
Lauren: Yeah.
Ann: Me too.
Matt: I don’t think you can deeply heal by yourself.
Dave: What’s that look like for you guys? I’m thinking of listeners, watchers not having that. What does it look like?
Ann: And how do they get it?
Dave: They want to be in your group, so we’re going to invite them to be in your group.
Matt: Mine is very closed now.
Lauren: It’s been set for a while and it’s—gosh, that is such a hard question to answer unfortunately because it’s so different for people; where you find that community because there has to be reciprocity there. You have to find people that want it too and that are willing to be as vulnerable as you’re wanting to go. And sometimes it’s a home group. Sometimes it’s like couples within a home group that you can just kind of feel, “Okay, I think they’re wanting some of the same things we are wanting.” I think it helps to have proximity to either be working together or kids.
And so I think just keeping your eyes open, asking a Lord to show you, “Okay, who are people in our lives already that You are kind of drawing towards some vulnerability,” and just using discernment with that. And I think it probably does—taking the first step and saying, “Hey, we are wanting this. Are you guys wanting this?” I don’t know. I feel like you probably get this question more than I do.
Dave: I mean, do you have the same couples for years?
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: Yeah, years and years.
Lauren: There’s been some flex because some have moved away, but there are two couples in particular, it’s been like 15 years.
Matt: Well with one of them 20—
Lauren: Yeah, one of them 20.
Matt: —and then one 15.
Dave: We had the same thing. And it was interesting that at one point we didn’t know it, but one of the wives was having an affair.
Lauren: Oh yeah, yes.
Dave: And nobody knew, and then it came out, and—
Ann: I remember I knew something was going on. I remember walking with her saying, “I don’t know what’s going on, but I want you to know—” and I just said this out of nowhere. I didn’t think it was happening—”even if you would have an affair, we would be right with you. We’d be right beside you.” And then it came out that week where that was happening
Dave: And they made it. And they wouldn’t have made it without this group.
Lauren: Oh, I believe it.
Matt: No, you better be embedded. That’s why I always trying to say, “Hey, the command in the scripture is not that you go to church, but that you belong to one.”
Ann: That’s good.
Matt: Those are two very different ideas.
So I had a man talk to me. He said, “Every man”—it was kind of a leadership kind of thing where he is like, “Every man needs a king’s table.” And he was using David as an example. They need a Joab who’s like, “What hill are we taking? What battle are we fighting? What?” And then they need a Nathan to go, “You’re an idiot. I can’t believe you didn’t see this. I can’t believe you didn’t fear the Lord. I can’t believe.” And then you need a Jonathan, a guy that just loves your soul.
And he was pointing out that on David’s Ascent, all three of those guys are present. But then Jonathan dies and here comes Bathsheba. And without that other man, that’s the lover of your soul—he’s not tied to your platform. He’s not tied to you being the CEO. He’s not tied to your success. He just loves who God made you. And it’s this kind of deep friendship of care and concern where he’ll just like “My guy,” he’ll just go, “you all right? You just seem off.” Or in that meeting, “You were pretty quick to power up when it didn’t feel like that was necessary. Everything all right? How’s Lauren? Do I need to call Lauren?” And Lauren knows him really well.
And so I have tried to kind of take that idea of a King’s table and go, who’s the older man that I’m saying? Any inconsistency in me pointed out? I don’t want any difference between who I’m on stage, who I am with my wife and who I am. So he’s got the proximity. Tell me. So my elders know if at my year in review, I find out something that you don’t like that I’m doing, I am going to be a special kind of angry if you just sat on that for six months and waited for the—I want it quick, fast, real time. That’s how I learn. But I think that you have to invite it because most people don’t know how to do this. And so by saying, “I want to be a man of integrity, I don’t want any secrets.” I mean, I share my tax returns with these guys. I don’t want to sing. I don’t want anybody ever walk up to me and go, “Guess what I found out about you?” and have anything in me go, “What?!” No, no, no. You have full access to my life. She can look at my phone whenever she wants. She can and does. And “Who are you texting with?” I don’t want to live—
Lauren: I’m just curious. I’m not paranoid.
Matt: No, not at all, not at all.
Ann: This guy that shared that with you, did you say it was a guy that shared it with you? Is that a book? That should be a book.
Matt: It should be.
Ann: You should write that.
Matt: I’m going—nobody write this until I can get to it.
Dave: I just took notes.
Matt: It’s fine. It’s fine.
Ann: And I think it’s true for women too. You wouldn’t call it the King’s Table.
Matt: The Queen’s table.
Lauren: We call it the Queen’s Table.
Matt: In fact, I shot on my podcast The Overcomers, me and the two of these guys that are in that circle we sat, and we just talked about this stuff. What does it actually look like? How is it built over the years? What’s the price that’s paid? What’s the benefit for the price paid? And in the comments and YouTube, they’re like, “When’s Lauren going to do the Queen’s Table? And I was like, “I’ll talk to her. She needs to get on here.”
Dave: What do you guys do in terms of boundaries? Because in ministry, we talked early about that. And then as our church grew and grew and grew, it’s like, “Wow, we got to have boundaries.” Women come up to me after the sermon and they went prayer. And I’m like, “Yeah, go talk to her.” It’s like we had to have those. So what’d that look like for you?
Matt: I don’t mentor or meet with women that aren’t Lauren. We have a beautiful staff of really gifted women ministers and they are more than willing and available. But I don’t disciple women. I don’t meet alone with women. I don’t mean they might come into a room that I’m in with a triage kind of moment for one reason or another. But then we do have friends that are the opposite sex, but in an appropriate way.
Lauren: Right; yeah.
Ann: Let’s shift it because you guys, I feel like everything you’re talking about is this wealth of information. But I also want to hear about parenting. And so as we were talking, and let me just say too, one of the things I love about you two in terms of your relationship is your friendship.
Matt: We have a lot of fun.
Ann: I know, you can tell. You see it even on Instagram, on posts, they really like each other.
Matt: We do.
Lauren: We do.
Matt: That’s why we’re not worried ultimately about—we’ll miss when Nora’s gone. It’ll be a transition.
Lauren: It will be.
Matt: But we have not cultivated a life where we have to get to know each other.
Ann: You can see that.
Dave: You’re going to love it.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: Oh we are.
Dave: Cause we’re that way and it’s a joy.
Lauren: Yeah.
Dave: I mean even sometimes when they come over now, I’m like, “What are you doing here? You’re not supposed to be here. Get out of here.”
Matt: We’re trying to go—what can we do? Our hobbies don’t overlap. We’re trying to go develop a—
Dave: Oh, really?
Lauren: Not, I mean he does jujitsu. I’m not doing that.
Dave: You got to go pickleball.
Lauren: I love pickleball. And we have dominated lately.
Matt: We’ve been seven and O on our last little tail.
Dave: Let’s go. Let’s go.
Lauren: We’re about to build a pickleball court out there.
Ann: We’re putting one in our yard.
Dave: We’re putting one in our yard, yeah. We’re sort of serious.
Matt: You’re probably more committed than we are.
Lauren: And then I think I’m really invested in, even though I’m not on staff at The Village, I’m really invested in The Village and his role. And so I love talking shop at home. I’m like, “What’s going on? How can I pray?” I’ll give feedback on what I think. So he loves that.
Dave: So how have you built the friendship?
Matt: I actually do.
Dave: I do too. I always loved it. You want their feedback. You want their wisdom.
Matt: She’s like a matriarchal authority. She’s just got prophetic skills that are greater than mine. And so I’ve often told—
Lauren: —different.
Matt: —even guys in preaching, I’m like, “If my voice has blessed you, then you’ve heard Lauren’s voice.”
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: That’s so sweet.
Matt: So I’m always, I want it from her. She sees differently than I do, and I need it.
Ann: Yeah, we both need it.
Matt: And so I’ve not been the guy that was like, “I’m not talking shop with you because you won’t be able to forgive them later.” I’ve just not been that guy. She has not shown herself.
Dave: Has she ever texted you while you’re preaching and told you what to do on the stage?
Matt: No, but she’s been quick after to go “That’s not a real word.”
Ann: No, this is Dave’s security. He—
Dave: She did it Sunday. She’s watching the stream
Ann: If you’re listening to me and you think, “Oh, you could add this or do this.”
Dave: Oh, I do, every sermon.
Ann: You ask me, you say that like—
Lauren: You invited her.
Dave: I usually want it to be, at least a minute left.
Ann: It’ll come up on his—
Lauren: “Maybe she forgot.” She was afraid she’d forget. She’s like, “Let me make this note now.
Ann: “Oh this would be helpful right here.”
Dave: And she’s always right. She’s a hundred percent right.
Matt: No doubt.
Dave: So how have you built a friendship, if it isn’t common interest?
Matt: I just think we like each other.
Lauren: We do. We just like each other. We like spending time with each other. And I think we have common interests.
Matt: We like good food.
Lauren: Yeah, food.
Matt: We like hotels. We like nice hotels.
Lauren: Yeah. Stories—
Matt: That’s so worldly but we like it.
Ann: It’s okay, it’s alright.
Matt: We like a nice hotel.
Lauren: We’re bougie like that. But yeah, I think just we’ve always liked each other, and we’ve always been—I mean, he’s always been my best friend.
Ann: What would you say to the couples that are thinking “We don’t have that.”
Lauren: Right.
Matt: Friendship with anyone has to be cultivated. It just has to be cultivated. And I know somebody’s like, “Not me; I met this guy”—and I’m just going, “Ah, probably not.” Probably not. You chose some proximity, you chose some time, you chose—and then the thing, we both deeply love the Lord and love to watch him work. Lauren writes songs and sings, and she teaches, and she writes. I’m preaching and writing and leading. And that becomes a space where now we’re talking a lot about the kingdom. We’re talking a lot about what God’s doing in our heart, what He’s doing in this place, what He’s doing through this thing God’s given us to do.
Ann: Is it fun?
Matt: It so fun. It’s just the best. It’s never going to be over. It’s just the next season.
Dave: Is there an aspect that’s like the spiritual part of your relationship? I know for us sometimes I separated that as a pastor. I’m leading the congregation, and I come home and there was a sense that she’s like, “Could you lead me?” Not like I preach a sermon but be as passionate at home about that as you were on the stage.
Ann: Yes. That’s it.
Dave: Have you experienced it or how do you—
Matt: I think probably Lauren has longed for me to do that more than I have. Do you think?
Lauren: I think so. I mean, you do a good job. But definitely when you do set the tone for our home and when you seem to be on fire—and not that you’re not always on fire—
Matt: I’m not always.
Lauren: —but there’s seasons, you can’t always maintain that. I mean, it just has an exponential effect on me, on the kids. It really does.
Dave: Lauren, have you ever said this? One time, and our listeners heard this—
Matt: She knew. She’s like—
Ann: You guys, you can tell that I’m a verbal processor.
Dave: I won’t go into the full-blown thing, but the short version is one time after a long weekend of preaching, and I was even on the sideline with the Lions, so it was a football season.
Ann: He was the Lion’s chaplain.
Lauren: Oh yeah!
Dave: And so I’m exhausted Sunday night; preach I think seven times. Anyway, I lay in bed, and she literally says out loud—
Ann: Wait, wait, wait. I first said, “Man, I watch you preach and pray.” I’m like, “Yes!”
Dave: No, you didn’t say anything. She said right out of her mouth—
Matt: I love this.
Dave: “I wish the guy that was at our church lived here.” That’s what she said.
Lauren: Oh my word.
Ann: No, I said the beginning part first.
Dave: No, you did not. No you didn’t.
Ann: “You’re so good at praying.”
Dave: No, I asked her?
Ann: Was that a different time?
Dave: I’m laying there, and she said, “I wish the guy that led our church lived here.” I turned to her, and I go, “What do you mean?” And I was edgy right away like, “What do you mean?” And she goes, “I watched you this morning. You’re passionate. You’re casting vision and here’s where we’re going. Then you’re praying with it.” She goes, “You don’t bring that here.” And I wish—
Ann: I said, “When you come home, you’re a dud.”
Matt: Oh my gosh, Sunday night. You can’t say that to a man on Sunday night.
Dave: Oh, no way.
Ann: I know.
Lauren: I think you found your Nathan. I think you found your Nathan at your King’s Table.
Matt: Nathan in the house with you.
Dave: I don’t need her right now.
Matt: And man, if God would’ve done that with Nathan or with David, who knows—
Ann: You guys, I was so bad. We’ve written books of how not to do this.
Dave: I jumped up and said something to the effect, I don’t even know I got—
Lauren: Oh no.
Dave: I’m like, “Let me tell you. I know the men at this church. You got the best husband in this whole stinking church. They’re losers compared to me.” But she was right. She was right in terms of, I brought it—
Ann: —the energy.
Dave: And I’m not saying I should walk into the house, but it was like a different level. There was a part of me that thought when you said earlier, it’s like I drive home outside of this mailbox now is like, take the job, put it in there, dad, husband, let’s go, second shift. I’ve never heard that term. That’s so good. I was not doing that. And that was on me. It’s like I need to bring the most important disciples in my life. I’m right here. What am I doing?
Ann: We have a book coming out in May. It’s called How to Speak Life to Your Husband When All You Want to Do is Yell at Him.
Lauren: I think that’s amazing.
Ann: So you can say, I’m trying to get better.
Dave: So that has been something you’ve had to navigate as well.
Lauren: Yes.
Dave: The spiritual part of your marriage relationship.
Lauren: Oh absolutely.
Matt: I think so for sure. I think I am more, and I don’t quite know why. I think I’ve been more timid there with Lauren than I have with others.
Dave: That’s a good word. That’s what I do.
Lauren: It’s so vulnerable.
Matt: Yeah, maybe that’s what it is where I don’t feel timid with the elders. I don’t feel timid with the church. I don’t, but I can feel—
Ann: That’s interesting.
Matt: And I think part of it’s like, and this is just a conversation, it might be like you—you know in psychology, that idea of golden child. I wonder if I’m just going, “Gosh, she’s so fierce. Does she want me to lead that way?”
Lauren: Oh really.
Matt: And then I wouldn’t even know, “Okay, what does that look like now for me to lead that way?” if I know exactly how that looks if you give me a room full of 12 men, or I’m speaking to, I’m trying to move a congregation. Man, that is not going to translate to leading it so I’m curious now. It would be a date night conversation for us.
Ann: It’s so interesting because you’re such a strong leader. And you’re a strong leader too.
Dave: That word timid is—that resonates.
Matt: That’s what I have felt around it.
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: You would say that. And you didn’t have a dad. Dave never had a dad.
Dave: I didn’t have a model, but I always felt like she’s so capable. She doesn’t even need me at home.
Lauren: Yeah.
Ann: I wonder if a lot of men feel that.
Lauren: I would imagine.
Matt: Yeah, I don’t know.
Lauren: Especially because I feel like a lot of women—like I went to this little prayer room yesterday and it was completely filled with women. It was the time of day which makes more sense that women might have some flexibility there, but it does seem like women just are already kind of there. And so I can see how that would be intimidating for a man. And I mean even for you, so I hope your listeners are encouraged. And I think for you, if I were to share just maybe an invitation of, “Hey, the Lord’s putting this on my heart. What do you think? I kind want to try this out in our home or for us.” And just inviting me into that I think is a great way to start instead of, “Okay, this is what we’re doing.” Because I for sure will be like, “Hold on.”
Matt: There’s the timidity, right, where I’m like—
Lauren: So I’m helping you.
Ann: Or even kids like “Dad, what are you doing?”
Matt: The kids—I think I’m less timid with the kids. I’m probably more timid with Lauren. But yeah, you have always felt that way to me. So I’ve always been like, “I think we’re good at home. I think things are really good at home.”
Lauren: They are. Do you feel like where you are personally at home with the Lord is contagious? And so I think that always helps. But yeah, just inviting us.
Ann: I’ve said that to Dave too. Like “Man, the power that you have,” even with our sons. When he says something, they’re locked in.
Matt: It’s different.
Ann: And I’m jealous of it. I don’t think he understands the power that he carries.
Dave: I’m powerful. That’s what I am.
Ann: Not being a big leader, but just his voice.
Lauren: The weight of a dad.
Dave: Let’s talk parenting.
Lauren: Yeah, let’s do it.
Dave: Because raising kids in the ministry, and I’m guessing you had the same dream we had. We want our boys to be walking with the Lord when they’re men.
Lauren: Yes, that’s what we want.
Dave: How did that go and how is that going? And what would you say to parents trying to do that?
Ann: We don’t have much time. Maybe we could do like, here’s something—
Dave: We got 15 minutes.
Ann: Do we?
Dave: Yeah. Matt can be late. No, I’m kidding.
Matt: I certainly can’t.
Dave: No, we can’t.
Lauren: We can definitely—
Dave: We got about ten, twelve minutes.
Ann: Here’s what we did right and here’s something I wish we would’ve done a little different.
Dave: Okay, there you go.
Lauren: Okay, that’s good. You start, Babe.
Matt: Yeah, she’s a—
Lauren: I take a little longer to think.
Matt: —deeper processor than I am apparently.
Ann: You’re just quick.
Matt: I used to say I was fast, and she was slow. And she’s like, “I’m not slow.”
Ann: I used to say that too.
Matt: “I’m deeper.” And I’m like, “Well then are you saying I’m shallow?” We’ll work through it on date night with this other conversation you guys have helped us with. I thought we did an exceptional job at time for all that we were doing. I coached teams, I was present. I was eager to get home to be with them. I think we did that very well.
Dave: And your wife is agreeing.
Matt: Yes.
Lauren: Yes.
Dave: It isn’t “I thought I did.” You did that.
Ann: We usually look at the wife.
Matt: That’s smart.
Lauren: We brought them with us on some things. They’ve gotten to take—
Matt: Yes. My kids have better passports than most adults.
Lauren: —amazing trips. Yeah, because he was invited to speak somewhere.
Matt: Like to Rwanda, to London and to Australia.
Dave: That’s great.
Matt: And then second thing I would say we did well is I took them with me when I went, including hospital visits. I would take them with me if the hospital wasn’t too bad. I would take them with me. I just wanted—this isn’t daddy’s job. This is who daddy is.
Ann: Oh, that’s so good.
Matt: And let’s go. Come with me.
Dave: That’s great.
Matt: We did. I mean, you saw me. Nora was with me at PAO. That was a trip that Lauren couldn’t go on. She had something going on. And so I said, “Nora”—
Dave: Let’s go.
Matt: —I’m not taking one of our pastors so we can spend time scheming. I’m taking my little girl. I’m going to get great time with her. I’m going to steal away one day and spend all day at Disney. And I’m laying my yes down. So there’s no reason for me to say no. So you tell me what you want to do.
Ann: Sweet.
Matt: And so I think we did that really well. Gosh, the list of what we didn’t do well, I think is much longer.
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: I think it’s much longer. I think there were things about each one of our kids that we caught late. And by the time we caught it, there had been some damage done. Each of my kids responded differently to being Matt Chandler’s kid.
Ann: Us too.
Matt: I had a kid that hated it, loved the perks, but hated it. When this kid was a kid-kid, if other little kids at the Christian school would try to be this kid’s friend, there was this kind of, “Do they really want to be my friend?”
Lauren: Didn’t trust motives.
Matt: And then if they ever asked about me, she’d put them in the category of, and then later moved to public school and there were people, “Oh, aren’t you that priest’s kid?” Or aren’t you that?” And “Holy kid, holy kid,” and she dang sure wasn’t going to be that. And we caught that stuff late. And then the other two have had different, but—
Ann: What would you have done if you would’ve caught it earlier?
Matt: Well, I think all I know to do is go after their heart in it and try to soothe whatever part is broken, try to get at, which the kid might not even understand.
Ann: They probably don’t even know.
Matt: So I mean you know this as a parent, you’re always brutal on yourself more than— I think me getting bad sick when they were little-little marked them in a unique way.
Lauren: The older two.
Ann: How old were they when that happened?
Lauren: Six, four and six months.
Dave: What do you mean? What way did it mark them?
Matt: So I think for one of my kids, they had a very hard time trusting God after that, even though God healed me. And I would bring that up. “I’m here. I’ve been healed.” But in that little soul—
Lauren: So hard to reconcile.
Matt: —but why would He let that happen to you? Why would He? And there still is a wrestle in that kid.
Lauren: Which is understandable.
Ann: Totally.
Matt: Can He fully be trusted? Can I really trust Him with my whole life?
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: It was heartbreaking for me.
Dave: Yeah.
Matt: Heartbreaking for me.
Dave: Yeah, I bet. We all still ask that question.
Lauren: Yeah.
Matt: No doubt. No doubt.
Lauren: We do. We do.
Dave: That’s interesting.
Lauren: I think too, we allowed some influences in their lives that I think we did not use discernment in. And I think we just—I know the Lord can use anything, but if I could go back, I would’ve stayed in there more instead of just letting that person kind of come in.
Ann: So people?
Lauren: People that I trusted.
Matt: Adult.
Lauren: Yeah, adults.
Matt: Not like another kid.
Lauren: Where I thought they would be a good influence and there was just an unhealthy back edge to it where I could have been there.
Ann: So you wish you would’ve stayed in that relationship?
Lauren: Yes. A little bit tighter, not kind of giving that person’s space. So I think that’s a regret or something I would do differently. And then even just speaking into who God made them to be; being more vocal about what I saw in them that was good that I know God planted in them. I know I said it, but I’m just like, “Did I say it enough? I’m not sure.” Because I think so often, we can get stuck on their behavior or we see a trajectory and—
Ann: We’re training them.
Lauren: We’re trying to avoid pain as much as possible. And so that can communicate maybe a message to them that just through their little filters gets skewed a little bit. Or probably the voice of the enemy just grabs it.
Matt: I love that.
Lauren: And uses something that you did not intend it to be used that way. So some of it’s, gosh, in your control, some of it’s out of your control. And so another thing would be just praying. I think I prayed well.
Matt: More contending prayer.
Lauren: But more contending prayer as they were growing up. But I contend now.
Dave: About adult kids. You’ve got one married.
Lauren: Yeah.
Ann: Does that feel different?
Lauren: Yes. And that’s why I contend even more because I realize how much control I do not have.
Ann: I don’t think that is talked about enough with adult children. You have no control anymore and it takes your breath away.
Lauren: It does.
Ann: I have no control.
Matt: And you better pick your spots for sake of the relationship.
Dave: Oh yeah. You don’t want to crush that.
Lauren: You don’t. So it’s a challenge but just learning to be a friend and to not say things and to pray them instead.
Ann: That’s why prayer becomes so huge the older you get. That’s the only thing I have. That’s the only thing I can do.
Lauren: Yes.
Matt: Which was probably true when we were younger people—
Ann: Exactly.
Lauren: We’re seeing it now.
Ann: But we thought we had control.
Matt: —full of strength and vigor. I got this.
Lauren: Exactly right.
Matt: And control is certainly an illusion.
Lauren: Yes. And cheering them on in the adulting decisions they’re making and even in their mistakes. Their mistakes have been made and I’m like, “You know what? I hate that for you, but I’m so proud of how you have been resilient in this, and you’ve made the most of it and you haven’t given up. And that to me is more impressive than if everything went great.”
Ann: Yes.
Matt: That’s good.
Ann: That’s really good.
Dave: Well, I’ll end with this. I know your older man has another meeting he has to go to so—
Ann: Your older man.
Lauren: Older man.
Matt: For the record, it’s a prayer meeting.
Lauren: I am going with them.
Dave: No, thanks a ton. I know your lives is busy. Thank you for opening up your church and letting us come in and do this. It’s been a privilege. Thanks.
Matt: No, thank you guys.
Lauren: Thanks for having us.
Dave: Your impact on the world—
Lauren: And for your ministry.
Dave: Seriously, your impact has been powerful.
Ann: And it’s cool, Matt, because when our son—our middle son got married first and I think they’re in their first year of marriage and they’re figuring out, growing and she said, “I’m listening to this pastor right now.” I’m like, “Who is it?” “Matt Chandler.” And so I started listening to you because I want to hear who she’s listening to. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, this is so good.” So thank you for impacting
Dave: Yeah.
Ann: —the entire country and parts of the world. And Lauren, you are incredible.
Matt: She is.
Lauren: Oh, thank you.
Ann: Yeah. Thank you for making Matt younger and better.
Matt: Both of those are true. Both of those are true. I love it.
Lauren: Thank y’all.
Ann: Hey, thanks for watching and if you’d like this episode—
Dave: You better like it.
Ann: —just hit that like button.
Dave: And we’d like you to subscribe. So all you got to do is go down and hit the subscribe. I can’t say the word “subscribe.” Hit the subscribe button. I don’t think I can say this word.
Ann: Like And subscribe.
Dave: Look at that. You say it so easy, subscribe. There it goes.

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