Word Before Work: Jordan Raynor

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Word Before Work

Guest:Jordan Raynor

From the series:Faith and Work (Day 2 of 2)

Air date:April 15, 2026

Jordan (00:04):

On the new earth, we’re going to be working; and we’re going to long enjoy the work of our hands. Is it possible to grow in your love of the work? Yes! I think that looks different for different people. I think it’s why we’ve got to try a lot of different things to find the thing that God made us to do exceptionally well in service of others. When you find that, as you get good at the thing—whatever that thing is—passion grows alongside of it.

Ann (00:35):

Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave (00:42):

And I’m Dave Wilson, and you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave: I didn’t know it when we got married, but I married a worker. I sort of knew; but man, oh man, you, woman, can work.

Ann (01:05):

It’s irritating, isn’t it?

Dave (01:06):

No, it’s awesome! There are times it’s irritating; especially, when you’re pushing me to work harder. But I did not know: it’s like you love it.

Ann (01:16):

I do love it.

Dave (01:17):

You do! What is it?

Ann (01:18):

It feels like therapy to me. People bring me energy; but even just manual labor is like, “Oh, this just feels so good.” My problem is I want my kids—and wanted our kids—to have that same attitude: “We get to work today.” When they had the attitude of “Ugh, do we have to do this? It’s so dumb.” I’d be like, “Are you kidding?! We get to do this!” I was so annoying.

Dave (01:46):

Yeah, and you want your husband to do the same thing.

Ann (01:48):

You’re a hard worker, too.

Dave (01:49):

Not like you.

We’ve got Jordan Raynor back with us today to talk about work because not only—you’re the worker, man—I never watched you work except here in the studio, but I can imagine you’re a lot like Ann. You attack work; am I right, Jordan?

Jordan: —engage, attack.

Ann (02:06):

There it is; “engage” is a better word.

Jordan: Yes, engage.

Dave (02:08):

That’s what I thought. We’re going to talk a little bit today about your book, The Word Before Work.

Ann (02:13):

—which is a devotional. I love that; tell us just a little—

Dave (02:17):

It’s only Monday through Friday. He lets them have Saturday and Sunday off.

Jordan (02:20):

I give you some slack, because I know you’re all—no, I’m just kidding.

Ann (02:22):

Why Monday through Friday?

Jordan (02:24):

Because listen, I—hopefully, most of our listeners are spending time in the Word in general, daily, applying the gospel to our lives; renewing our minds as we live in this increasingly post-Christian culture—but man, I think we’ve got to be renewing our minds with God’s Word, specifically as it relates to our work, if we’re working outside the four walls of the church.

And so that’s what this devotional is designed to do, five days a week—Monday through Friday—in two minutes, with a little bit of Scripture; a little bit of exposition; and some really practical takeaways, take God’s Word and apply it to what you’re doing, whether you’re an entrepreneur, a barista, a stay-at-home parent, a bus driver; whatever it is.

Ann (03:04):

You’re in for a treat because Jordan brings energy and passion—

Dave: —to his work!

Ann: If you feel bored and unmotivated in your job, you’ve just stepped into the right place in what to listen to.

Dave (03:14):

Here’s my question, Jordan: if you’re like Ann, you fired people who don’t work well. I watched her fire our boys every week: “You’re fired!” because they weren’t excited about the work; and they’re dragging.

Ann (03:27):

We have one son—we did lawns; we had a lawn business—and then, we had a deck finishing business. This one son would always just drag the tools; he dragged them behind. I’m like, “Come on, guys! Let’s have a good attitude.” By the end of the day, it’s like, “You’re fired! I would fire you,” because it seemed like he was lazy to me. I was very poor in helping them to have a good attitude, because all I did was judge them. It was terrible.

Dave (03:57):

But it must have worked; he’s a really hard worker.

Ann (03:59):

Not because of me, in spite of me.

Jordan (04:01):

—by God’s grace.

Ann (04:02):

Yes, by God’s grace.

Dave (04:02):

Have you ever felt that same thing? Because, you know you have this perspective: “This is holy work; even a yard job is holy work.”

Ann (04:10):

You have three children.

Jordan (04:12):

I do.

Dave (04:12):

Did you fire them?—ever?

Ann: This your passion.

Jordan (04:14):

I haven’t fired them yet; I haven’t fired them yet.

Ann (04:17):

That’s because they’re young!

Jordan (04:18):

I’m thinking a lot about this. I’m thinking a lot about how to get my kids to see a biblical vision of work, and that work was God’s first gift to humankind—that the sixth day, contrary to how most of us preach it and teach in our children’s books, was not the end of creation. It was the beginning! It’s when God passed the baton to us and told us to create like Him.

I’m trying to plant that idea in their minds at a really early age; but also have a lot of grace with them, recognizing that we live in a fallen world and not everyone loves their work—that’s a result of the fall of Genesis 3—and just having grace with them and my employees the way that my heavenly Father has grace with me.

Ann (04:59):

I have to share this story because this is something that I did very poorly. This son that I would always fire. He liked doing things and working his own way, and I didn’t recognize that. I thought it should be done this way, my way, instead of really understanding his personality and his bent.

This one day our—he’s a teenager—our house was toilet-papered by his friends. I said, “Guys, you need to go outside and pick up the toilet paper”; and I give him a trash bag. Well, he’s not doing it for hours. I come out, I’m like, “What are you doing? This should be done by now.” He has taken a broom handle—he’s taken the broom off—and he’s gone into the house to get a kebab skewer. Now, he has taken duct tape, and duct-taped it onto the handle of the broom; so that he can take this new device—

Dave (05:54):

—and poke it.

Ann: — and poke it and lift it up to put it in the garbage bag. I’m thinking “You’re taking more time. You could have been done by now!” Here, he’s created this great—to him it’s like, “Look at what I have created,”—and I wish I could have celebrated how we work in a different manner, instead of expecting it all to look the same.

Jordan (06:14):

Man, that’s a challenge for me. I would’ve done exactly the same thing you did; but no, this is a really good example of a practical outworking of applying the Word to your work. When I look in Scripture, I’m reminded, in Genesis: “I bet Adam and Eve worked differently; I bet they had different working styles. God has created each of us uniquely, and that means we’re all going to work uniquely.”

Yes, that’s going to frustrate us—under the fall, in a post-Genesis 3 world—but to be able to see that there’s creational goodness there. God created us to be good; there is a way that he has hardwired us to work. If He created my kids that way, there’s something good in there that I need to celebrate,—

Ann: Yes, that’s good.

Jordan (07:01):

—which is very hard. I’m preaching to myself: “This is not easy.”

Dave (07:02):

Yes, it was pretty interesting, that same son—I mean, he’s very techie; and now, he works in the tech world—if you put anything in front of him that’s tech-related, he will outwork everybody [for] hours to make sure this—”I can wire this thing this way…”

I remember when he was in high school, one of the guys who did cement at my church hired him for the summer. After one week Ron came to me—and he’s a blue-collar dude; this guy’s a worker—

Ann: He’s awesome.

Dave: —and he goes, “Dude, your kid doesn’t know how to work.” I go, “What?”

Ann (07:33):

And I’m like, “See, I told you!”

Dave (07:35):

Ann’s like, “I fired him 100 times!”

He goes, “Yeah, dude, he just doesn’t have it.” I go, “Ron, you have my permission: ‘Make him a worker.’” He goes “Are you serious?” He goes, “I thought you were going to say, ‘Don’t push my boy.” I go, “No; push him, man. I’ve tried. He’s a good kid, but maybe you’re the…”—and you know what?—at the end of the summer, he comes to me, and goes, “Your dude can work!” I go, “What?!” He goes, “I made him a worker.”

Jordan (08:00):

That’s awesome.

Dave (08:00):

I’m tearing up; because, in some ways, God brings other people sometimes around your kids; and he/CJ is an incredible worker.

Ann: Oh yes; he’s amazing.

Dave: A lot of it I owe to Roncelli, this cement guy that taught my boy how to work.

Ann (08:14):

Wait, you’re not giving me any credit?

Dave (08:16):

Well, yes; Ann gets credit, too! It definitely wasn’t me. But, as you think about that, is that something we can grow into?—becoming a better worker?

Jordan (08:26):

Oh, no doubt. Listen, we believe we’re all in this journey to our future glorified selves; that’s the process of sanctification. On the New Earth, we’re going to be working; and we’re going to long enjoy the work of our hands. Is it possible to grow in your love of the work? Yes! I think, biblically, we could say that pretty definitively.

I think that looks different for different people. I think it’s why we’ve got to try a lot of different things to find the thing that God made us to do exceptionally well in service of others. When you find that and when you—actually, really good scientific data is coming out now that says: “As you get good at the thing”—whatever that thing is—”passion grows alongside of it.”

(09:07) We have this backwards in our culture. We think: “You start with passion. You find the thing you’re passionate about; and then, you go do it; and you’re immediately happy.” It’s not how it works. You get to love what you do by getting really good at it, which shouldn’t surprise Christians. We model the One Who came to serve, not to be served. Jesus served us; and as we serve others, through the ministry of excellence, our love of the craft grows alongside of it.

Ron Deal (09:28):

Hey, friends; Ron Deal here, Director of FamilyLife Blended. Did you know Blended & Blessed—the only worldwide livestream designed for couples and blended families—is free this year? Saturday, April 18, we’re going to be live in Oklahoma City. If you show up there, we’re going to charge you for lunch. But other than that, it is free to livestream. Churches can bring a group of couples together, and enjoy the day, absolutely free.

Gayla Grace is going to be with us; Davey and Kristi Blackburn; Cheryl Shumake’s going to be with us; Kathi Lipp; and Bryan Goins, our emcee. It’s going to be a wonderful day; I hope you can join us. Learn more and get the link in the show notes at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave (10:18):

Hey, talk about the who of work; because I know, as a preacher, there have been times when I talked about work from the pulpit. And over 30 years, I bet I’ve said this multiple times, either on stage—but especially, privately, with a businessman—I say, “Man, I’m jealous of what you get to do every day.” They look at me like, “What?! I’m jealous of what you get to do today; you work for God.”

(11:12) I’m like, “Yes; but every day you get to go to an office”—or whatever you do—”and you’re around people who are far from God. You’re strategically placed there, by God, to reach them and make disciples where you are. I’ve got to work with Christians all day; that’s pretty boring.” I’m kidding, but they think they want my life.

I’m like, “No, I want your life; because you get the who part. What we do is important—I’m not saying it isn’t—but who we get to do it with is probably more important because that’s where we get to lead people to Jesus.

Jordan: I talk about this in The Word Before Work. I’ve interviewed a lot of people on how to do this effectively, in a post-Christian context, that doesn’t require putting tracts in the break-out room. I think we all know that’s not effective.

Dave: It’s not the “Jesus Loves You” belt buckle?

Jordan: I don’t think that’s it. It could be it for you, Dave.

Let me just give five things real practically for our listeners to do if they want to make disciples at work:

Number 1: “Be so good they can’t ignore you.” 1 Thessalonians 4: Paul calls us to win the respective outsiders. Guess what? Mediocrity doesn’t win the respect of outsiders in our current cultural climate; mastery does.

Dave (11:47):

That is such an important thought.

Ann (11:49):

Oh, yes.

Dave (11:50):

Because often, we think it’s the tract; it’s not cursing ever—again, those are good things—”Just work, unto the Lord, and people will notice.”

Jordan (12:00):

There’s a reason why I put this first.

Ann (12:03):

And you use the word, “mastery.” What’s that mean?

Jordan (12:04):

I don’t know that we could really nail down a definition of this, but it’s being so good they can’t ignore you. It’s being so good at your craft that you’re invited to the meetings. Everyone wants you in the room, because they know that you’re making the place of work better. So that’s Number 1.

Number 2: “Don’t just be so good they can’t ignore you in your skills; be a friend.” Be the person in your office that cares about people beyond their productivity.

Number 3: “At some point, you got to identify yourself as a Christian.” You can’t just be good at what you do. At some point you have to raise your hand, and say, “I’m a follower of Jesus,” if you want other people to follow Jesus.

Then, Number 4: “You just got to pray a lot for the Lord to open up doors to move conversations, from the surface, to the serious/to the spiritual with people. He’s the only One Who can open those doors; we can’t pry them open.

And then, finally, Number 5: Straight from 1 Peter 3: “We just got to always be prepared to give a reason for the hope that’s within us.” I think that includes the personal reasons, our testimony; but also, our universal reasons. In our increasingly post-Christian culture, we got to be brushed up on apologetics and be able to defend the very rigorous intellectual and historical case for Christ.

Those five things are a really good starting point; we can go deeper into that if you want. In the people I’ve interviewed, who are disciple-making machines in the workplace, those are the five common things I see in there.

Dave (13:28):

It’s interesting: when you were reading those, I think about—remember, I said yesterday I’d give this message every year to the Detroit Lions players about how to work. I had three I’s—I’m a preacher; they got to be I’s, or S’s, or T’s.

I said, “If you want to work unto the Lord, intensity, integrity, intentionality.” You just said all of them. Your intensity should be: “ I’m going to do my work as excellent as ever.” Integrity means: “I’m so trustworthy they know—everybody in that locker room knows—’That man can be trusted.’” And intentionality is: “I’m not just working”—I’ve got to be intentional—”but Whom I’m working for, and make that known at every opportunity.” In an intentional moment, say, “I’m going to give glory to God and lead people to Christ.” That’s what you just said!

Jordan (14:11):

Absolutely. Yesterday, we talked about how the Great Commission isn’t the only commission, but it is a commission. And one of my favorite stories about intentionality of making disciples comes from William Wilberforce. If our listeners don’t know, Wilberforce is most famous for—basically gained the credit for abolishing the slave trade throughout the British Empire—no big deal [sarcastically].

(14:47) What a lot of people don’t know is that, when Wilberforce entered the British Parliament in the 1700s, there were only a handful of serious Christians in Parliament. By the time he left, there were about 250; a lot of historians credit Wilberforce. He had this genius simple tool to aid his intentionality. It was a little journal that he called his “List of Launchers.” It was basically just a list of people’s names—it’s like, “Dave”—and next to Dave’s name, a list of topics that would launch that conversation from the surface, to the serious, to the spiritual.

There’s one example: it’s like S in Misses:

Ask them what books they’re reading.

Ask them about the education of their children and whether or not they talk about faith at home.

Invite them to church on Sunday to hear Reverend Ven—or whatever it was—I can’t remember this guy’s name.

But just little prompts.

(15:42) I’ve been doing this for about a year now, and it has been a game-changer. For example, before I go into my haircut with my hairdresser, Melanie, I’ll just take a real quick look at what I wrote down from our last conversation, where we left off. One bullet/two bullets of ideas that I can easily memorize before I go into that. Just make sure I’m intentional about taking that conversation somewhere so we’re not just talking about sports and kids the whole time. It’s a game-changer. It was a game-changer for Wilberforce; it’s been a game-changer for me.

Ann (15:57):

That is so good. I’ve never heard that about Wilberforce.

Dave (16:00):

Oh, that’s beautiful.

Ann (16:01):

You shared a story with us at lunch. I know we’re going to tie this into this work and in your devotional, but share the story with our listeners about Sixto.

Jordan (16:11):

Sixto Rodriguez. We were talking about this because you guys are from Detroit.

Dave: He must be a neighbor.

Jordan: He must be a neighbor! He’s still living there, to the best of my knowledge.

It’s a great story about the eternal significance of your work. You’ll see it in a second. Back in the ‘70s, there’s this Mexican-American musician living in Detroit named Sixto Rodriguez. Everybody thought he was going to be the next big thing. He worked with the top producers in the world—people who produced Michael Jackson and Ringo Starr—these guys said that Bob Dylan was mild compared to Sixto Rodriguez.

(16:41) They recorded this album called Cold Fact. They release it; and it totally, utterly bombs. There’s this great documentary called Searching for Sugarman. They asked one of the producers: “How many copies of this record did it sell?” They’re like, “I don’t know. In America, like six, something like that.” Well, one of those “six people” took the record from Detroit on a plane to this far off land of South Africa. She gets off the plane; she starts playing it for friends, and they’re obsessed with it.

Problem is: you can’t buy the record, because it didn’t sell anywhere. So you start bootlegging the record; and soon, it’s like everywhere. Within a year or two, it’s everywhere over South Africa. They actually start selling it in stores; and somehow—it’s very shady—somehow, the royalties got lost in translation from the record label in South Africa to Detroit.

(17:29) The point is: for 30 years, Sixto Rodriguez had no idea that he was bigger than The Beatles; he was bigger than The Rolling Stones; he was bigger than Elvis Presley—in South Africa.

Dave: That’s big.

Jordan: He’s staying in Detroit. He’s working manual labor; he’s dirt poor. They lived in 26 homes in 25 years. And then, out of nowhere, he gets a phone call one day. Some people in South Africa tracked him down. They finally found this guy. They call him up, and they say, “Is this Sixto Rodriguez?” He says, “Yes.” He says, “Do you know the impact that you’ve had in South Africa?” He’s like, “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” He goes “For the last 30 years, in South Africa, you have been a bigger star than Elvis Presley.” And he was just bowled over, like he could not believe it.

(18:23) I think there’s a beautiful application for believers here. We talked about this yesterday, in Psalm 37:23: “The Lord delights in every detail of our lives.” I think most of us are going to work every day, having no idea about the impact that our work has in the seemingly distant, unseen land called the Kingdom of heaven, not South Africa. But Psalm 37:23 says God delights in every detail of our lives. His pleasure is eternal; and if that’s true, then everything we do today, with excellence and love, in accordance with God’s commands, is literally shaping eternity.

I think it’s going to shape the interactions we have with the risen Christ on the New Earth. I think Jesus is going to come up to you when you’re—I don’t know—plowing a garden, or building a great city on the New Earth, He’s going to say, “Hey, Dave, I remember when you were chaplain for the Lions. You had the opportunity to lie to get some team members to stay on the team”—I don’t know what it was—”and you didn’t do that. I saw that, and my Father and I delighted in that. Well done, good and faithful servant.”

(19:23) He’s going to go to Ann; He’s going to say, “Ann, I remember watching you in those years of wiping diaper, after diaper, after diaper; and yes, there were some days where you cried out. But there were a lot of days when you did it with your smile on your face. My Father and I remembered that, and We took great delight in that.”

Everything we do has an impact in the unseen dimension of heaven. That should fuel our purpose and our joy right now.

Dave (19:54):

I’m just thinking there’s someone listening—a mom, a dad, a son or daughter—who’s just struggling with work. I know it can be really hard—especially, what you said, Ann—about being a mom and just the grind of that. Nobody sees it; you’re sort of invisible.

Ann (20:15):

It feels like it doesn’t matter.

Dave (20:16):

Our daughters-in-law are doing that right now with these little kids. And you just see it’s hard. And what you just said, they need to be reminded: “Jesus sees; He applauds. He is applauding right now, and He actually will give you strength and power to get through a hard workday.”

Ann (20:35):

Jordan, do you have any other applications for us? I love those five things. I’m thinking, “Oh, it’d be good to put those on our computers, on our visors as we’re going into work.”

Jordan (20:44):

You just get the book, and read it every morning.

Ann (20:45):

Those were good as you’re stepping. What are some practical things that we can do? Anything else?

Jordan (20:49):

—to be making better disciples?

Ann (20:51):

Yeah.

Jordan (20:51):

For me, one, this Wilberforce Launcher’s framework has been very helpful for me. But this language of surface, serious, spiritual has also been really helpful; I borrowed this from Matt Chandler, who I credit in the book. But just to have a roadmap, just to be able to identify in a conversation: “Are we talking about surface-level things?”

Ann (21:13):

—which most of us do.

Jordan (21:14):

—which most of us do. That’s where we stay; we stay at the surface. “How can I take that to the next step in the map, to something more serious?”—not necessarily spiritual; but just serious to really get to know what’s going on in that person’s heart, in that person’s home, in that person’s life—“What hard things are going on?”; and then, ultimately, to get to spiritual.

Listen: if we don’t get to the spiritual, we can trust that God can use anybody else to bring that person to Christ. He doesn’t need you; He doesn’t need me; He wants us to participate. But for me, that’s a really helpful map, to have in my mind, to remind me of where I’m trying to take those conversations.

Ann (21:53):

Hey, what happened to Sixto?

Jordan (21:56):

Oh, man.

Ann (21:57):

Did he go back? Did he go to South Africa? How are we going to end this story?

Jordan (22:01):

You got to watch this Oscar-winning documentary called Searching for Sugar Man. He gets off the phone—I don’t know how much later—they put him on a flight to South Africa from Detroit. He brings his daughters with them. They get off the plane, and these limos pull up. They’re like, “Must be someone important here.” Of course, the limos are for them. They get in the limo; and they go to the stadium, with tens and tens of thousands of people. Rodriguez gets on the stage, and they won’t stop screaming. It must be 30 minutes of just pandemonium: this enormous star they loved. It’s just a beautiful picture.

You got to be careful here—all analogies break down, because Jesus is the only star of heaven—but I think, in a small way, that’s what “Well done, good and faithful servant,” looks like with an audience of One, not tens of thousands of people. But that applause will be louder and more meaningful if we do our “work as unto the Lord”—as

Colossians 3 tells us—in this life. There is going to be varying applause, based on how we steward this life and steward our vocations in eternity. That should fuel our purpose in the present.

Dave (23:15):

Oswald Chambers said, “It is inbred in us that we have to do exceptional things for God: but we have not. We have to be exceptional in the ordinary things, to be holy in mean streets, among mean people, and this is not learned in five minutes.” What a true statement.

Ann (23:38):

What a great conversation with Jordan. I am pumped up when I listen to him talk about the purpose of work and God’s purpose for work. I need to listen to him every single day before I go to work. And maybe, even as a mom, you need to be reminded: “Oh, this really matters to God.” What we all do really matters to Him.

Again, his book is called The Word Before Work: A Monday-Through-Friday Devotional to Help You Find Eternal Purpose in Your Daily Work. Again, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com; click the link in the show notes. I think that you’ll love this; and it will encourage you, again, to be reminded of our purpose in our work.

Dave (24:21):

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