Love Jesus, Love Video Games: Reagan Rose

Reagan: You really can't, you can make a very good living being a, a streamer or, or a YouTuber or something with gaming. It's a career as an entertainer. And so, we know Christian actors, we know Christian comedians, right? It's a legit career path to be an entertainer, but like with any career, any job, whatever you're trying to do, the goal is to glorify God in that. And so, you need to be asking yourself, “If I'm going to go down this path, how can I use that to glorify God? How can I serve Him through that? How can I be a light in this dark world, even online?”

Shelby: I. Somewhat anxious, always authentic. This is Real Life Loading…

I'm your host, Shelby Abbott, and it's pretty safe to say that video games are a big deal to a lot of people. It’s how a ton of us spend the majority of our leisure time. How should followers of Christ approach video games? Play and have fun, abstain, and never engage. Well, my guest today, Reagan Rose, he's got some thoughts.

Reagan is an author who wrote a great little book called A Student's Guide to Gaming, and in it he gives us a better and more nuanced approach to gaming than just, :Keep away.” So, to start, Reagan will talk about some of the positive things about video games. He'll give us a few good heart-focused questions to ask yourself if you enjoy gaming. Then we'll have some real talk about addiction when it comes to video games.
So, let's get into it with Reagan Rose.

All right, Reagan. What have been some of your favorite video games that you've played over the years? It doesn't have to be recent. It could be from a long time ago. What have been some of your favorites?

Reagan: Yes. I really loved the Halo series, played lots of hours. There was a big one I was into for a while, which I think is still around, called RuneScape. It was kind of like World of Warcraft, but it was like the cheap version. [Laughter]

Shelby: The poor man's version, lots of people played it, I'm sure.

Reagan: Yes, that's right. I spent a lot of time playing it. I loved that game. I spent way too much time on it. But yes, those were a few of my favorites. The [Super] Mario games growing up when I was real little, the Mario games were big, so yes.
Shelby: Did you see the new movie that came out? The Super Mario Brothers Movie?

Reagan: I haven't yet. We wanted to. We just haven't made time yet.

Shelby: I saw it. It's actually pretty good. It's like, apparently, it's the best video game adaptation into a movie ever made, according to like critics. Granted, there's a lot of bad examples out there, but yes, I enjoyed it. It was fun. It was really, really fun.

Reagan: That's what I heard. I heard good things.

Shelby: Okay, so video games often get, like, especially by Christians, they just get like kind of wave the hand, no, you shouldn't do it. I want to talk a little bit about what are some of the positive aspects that you believe exist with video games?

Reagan: Yes, I think games are one of the most unique and interesting art forms that we have today. If you think about books or like painting or other things, we would consider art or even film, video games often don't get lumped into that category, but they ought to be, because they engage the full senses.

You actually get to participate. Like even a movie, it's great to watch it, but your passive. In a video game you participate. You get to live into the story. You get problem solving abilities. A lot of gamers go on to become programmers because they learn to solve puzzles. So, there are a lot of positives to it, even in terms of opportunity to connect with people and meet people, whether that's online or in groups with your friends. It's something to do. You hang out and you're actually doing something together. You're not just sitting there. So, I think there's a ton of positives. Yes.

Shelby: Yes, that actually is what I was going to ask you about, that in particular. I know that there are a few friends of mine who love to log on in order to hang out with friends.
It's almost like a, like a Zoom chat or something like that, or FaceTime. Why do you think that community is such a vital part of healthy gaming?

Reagan: Yes, I, I think that we're designed for that. God made us for fellowship. He's the triune God. He's been in fellowship with Himself since all eternity. He designed us for that, and to need each other, and so I think it's very natural that games, especially once they got online, we started connecting and playing with people. So, I think that's part of our design.

Shelby: Yes. Well, I think one of the main reasons I wanted to have this conversation with you is that when Christians start talking about video games, typically they generally hop super quickly into whether gaming is good or bad. Why do you think that's the wrong question to start with?

Reagan: Yes, I think that you have to be pretty open to saying that it's a gray area. Like I've read the Bible, I don't find anything in there about video games specifically, right? So, it's hard to come down.

Shelby: I've read it too. It's not.

Reagan: It is not in there - spoiler alert. So, it's hard to come down really hard and say, “This is wrong. Right?

Shelby: Right.

Reagan: But on the other hand, you can see that there's some temptation with anything that it can go too far. So I think finding that balance is hard for people and it's just easier sometimes to go all in one direction or another. Say it's all bad, now I have to think about it, or it's all good just stop talking about it and we can just shut down the conversation and move on.

I think the real, at least my thesis is that the issue isn't that games are too bad or that they're good or bad, it's that they're too good. Like they're actually really good and enjoyable and fun nowadays. But they're almost too good, where they can suck you in a little bit, and so we have to be more cautious.

Shelby: What do you think is a better question to ask then if Christians are like, go to one side or the other?

Reagan: Mm-hmm. I think the question is if you're someone who's given to playing games, if you're I love it, and it's just like my favorite thing in the world, is asking the question, “Why do I love this? What is it that's sort of capturing in my heart?”

I think that that's what drove me to start thinking about this more. Because I was really addicted to video games. That's a little bit of my history. And I was going through some tough things in school and just with my social life in general. So, it was like an escape for me, and I liked that it made a lot of really good friendships online. But I was using that to hide from the real world. I knew that. I started to recognize that, because I was telling friends, “no,” I don't want to come out and hang out with you this weekend as I feel sick, but I wasn't sick. I just wanted to play games.

So that was the question I started asking as I was coming out of that. I kind of quit cold turkey for a while to be like, “Okay, what's going on?” And that's the question, “Why do I love this?” Because that starts answering questions about what was I designed for? What would, how would God have me spend my time? That's the big one to me, I think.

Shelby: Yes, and I feel like that's a more interesting question, frankly. It's not whether it's good or bad. It's like, “Why do I” And then you start to peel back the layers.
You talked about addiction, and I know that that can be a huge problem with video games, a good thing taken to a bad degree, like anything here on earth. But you know, you see, you know, people engaging in it for like hours and hours and hours and they're staying up late playing video games with people. What would you say is the honest and kind of scary truth about video game addiction? Why is it unique?

Reagan: I think one is that it's real. Some people don't want to admit that it's a real thing. It's a real thing.

It's not just like Christians coming at it and saying, “You know, here's a boogeyman video game addiction.” Like, it's in the DSM five, the “Bible” for psychology. It's the World Health Organization has a thing for [it].

Shelby: Oh really? Wow.

Reagan: It is, it's a recognized thing - video game addiction. So, one is to admit that hey, there's a possibility this could be a problem for me. I think that's where we have to start – is it can happen. And so, we should approach it with discernment and caution and not to be scared, like obviously it's just a fun thing, right?

Shelby: Right.

Reagan: But to say, “Hey, this might take me further than I want to go. It might suck up my time more than I want it to.” And so, I'm going to go into it with being cognizant that that could be a problem and maybe set some boundaries for myself.

Shelby: So, a minute ago you mentioned how video games can capture our hearts. What desires of the heart do you think we try to satisfy through video games? Because you point out like three in the book, can you share what those are and how you came to identify those three specifically?

Reagan: Yes. I said in my own story I was trying to unravel - how did I get sucked in so much? How did this unravel my life as a young man where I was denying all my responsibilities and stuff?

And as I dug into this question of the heart, three things came to me as I was studying Scripture and just thinking this through, and one was, I really believe the Scripture clear that we're designed for dominion is the way I put it, which is the idea that God created us to rule and reign with Him from the very start. We see that in Genesis. We see it at the end in Revelation. You know, the saints are made to rule and reign with God.

This desire to overcome, to win, to sort of like dominate, especially in young men, is a really strong heart desire. That's great. There's an outlet for that in life, right? There are different ways we can do that in a God glorifying way. But one of the things video games can become is a way to do that or simulate doing that. The problem with that is that desire for dominion has a proper object. It has a proper thing. Like you're supposed to be doing stuff with your, in your real life.

Shelby: Mm-hmm.

Reagan: If you supplement too much with the fake thing, you're going to miss out.

The other one is fellowship, which we kind of touched on. We're designed for fellowship. Especially since online gaming, you really can have friends all over the world and it kind of scratches that itch, right? Your need for friendship. But it's this weird thing where you can hold people in an arm's distance because it's scary to be close to people. Which is sometimes why we shy away from real life things, people hurt us. So, on games I can like have my buddies and I know them online, but I can always turn that thing off, or they don't really know me, and so I get just enough to be satisfied, but I'm not getting the real thing.

The last one is just reward. We were redeemed for reward. God created us to desire reward. We don't talk about this too much I think in the church today, right, but it's really biblical concept. You know, there's a judgment at the end of time where Christ separates the sheep and the goats, but there's another judgment after that for the sheep. That's the judgment unto reward that we're going to be rewarded for our faithfulness. Not that it contributes to our salvation, but that it contributes to the reward we get in heaven.

That again, is simulated in video games - achievement unlocked. You know, you're like, you'll have to win. The reason you keep coming back to it is, you like to progress. But man, it would stink if like you spent all your time or a big chunk of your time, doing the fake versions of these things when there is a real mission. That actually satisfies these things way more fully and that's happens in real life.

Shelby: So, you talked about success a little bit. You call simulated success. This is your definition of it: the promise of the thrill without the risk or the pain. I thought that was very clever and insightful. Why is simulated success such a danger for the average gamer out there?

Reagan: It's alluring because it's way easier. We all want to be successful. I want it to succeed, and games give you a pathway to get that high. I guess you could say that feeling of yes, I just won.

In real life it's way more nebulous when you succeed, even in sports. I think sometimes we look to sports. It's okay, if I win the game, I get the trophy. But like other things in life, like how do I know I succeeded? How do I know I'm doing well with this thing? I use sports as an analogy because even with that, there's exertion required, there's a lot more effort.
But with games, I don't have to risk anything, nothing really happens if I lose, right? You just start over and try again. There's no real effort involved. Like obviously, you know, your eyes might get tired, but you're not doing physical exertion. You're not doing physical exertion and so it's not hard in the same sense.

They've actually done some studies on this, and it basically trains you to think that it's easy to be successful, it's easy to win at life. That's one of the problems they found with motivation with people who play video games, especially from a young age when they start to get in and try to be successful at other things. They're like, this should be easier, shouldn't it? It teaches you kind of a false way of working.

Shelby: Yes, makes sense. You say that video games offer us a place to hide from the danger of being hurt by relationships. Some people might hear that and say, “Great, let me dive in all the more.”

Why do you think running from that danger is a bad thing instead of a good one?

Reagan: Yes, let's just acknowledge it does hurt. All of us have been hurt in some way by relationships, but we get too close to somebody, and they burn us and you want to draw back. But that's life after the fall, man. I mean, that's life in a sinful world. We hurt and we are hurt by other people.

But again, we're designed for that fellowship and there is a proper expression of that and it's not easy, but it's worth it. It's far more fulfilling to invest in real relationships, especially those within your family, especially those within your local church, really diving into that because that is where you grow. That's where you get to make your contribution to serving others, to love one another. I mean, you know, have the commands in the New Testament are one another commands. How do you do that? If you're cut off from real relationships.

Shelby: Yes. I love that. I've always said, “Christianity is not a solo thing”, but really being a human is not a solo thing. When you think about the greatest punishment that our government has, it's solitary confinement. It's like being in prison for the prisoners. Like you're in prison already, but if you misbehave while you're in prison, you get thrown into solitary confinement. And it's just maddening because you're not designed to live life alone.

Reagan: And we self-inflict that on ourselves sometimes. That's the crazy thing about it. It's like we choose, it's weird.

Shelby: Yes, and it's not introvert extrovert time, you know? I mean like, I need my introvert time. That's different. This is like cutting yourself off from the world and you can try to make believe that you're actually engaging with people through something like a video game. But it's really, it's really more about you gotta rub elbows with people. You’ve got to do it. You have to get involved with other people even though it's scary.
Reagan: Yes, and it's not either or. You can acknowledge the positives of, I can connect with people all over the world - this is amazing. Thank you, God, for the common grace of this technology to do that. I have friends all over the world.

But you’ve got to also hold that there's a face-to-face thing. Even the Apostle Paul, he's writing, he's telling the churches, “I would rather be there face-to-face with you.” Even he was like, I like writing you a letter, that's great. But I want to be there face-to-face. The technology of writing letters, that's wonderful. The technology of Zoom or games, that's great - better face-to-face. That's what we're made for.

Shelby: And now it's time for the Low Key Three. This is where I'll tell you the three things that I Low Key Love and three things I Low Key Despise - despite embarrassment, inevitable mockery, or contrast to popular opinion. Buckle up.

Okay. Here are my Three Low Key Loves right now.

I'm loving number one. Nate Bargatze’s early 2023 Comedy special called Hello World. It's on Amazon Prime, and anytime I mention it, I always hear people say, “It's not as good as his other stuff.” But honestly, I disagree. I think it's hilarious. I love Nate's pacing as a joke teller. It's so different from other comedians and he's clean when it comes to language. That's rare these days.

Number two, I Low Key Love Harry Styles is Harry Styles album that came out last year called Harry's House. The first song on the album is called Music for a Sushi Restaurant, and it's my favorite track. It's not all winners on the album, of course, but it's a solid collection of music.

Number three, Reese's is coming out with like 800 varieties of their candy bars, but I discovered this one kind called Reese's Outrageous, and I low key love it. Peanut butter, like log bar coated caramel sprinkled with mini Reese's pieces, and then all of that is covered in chocolate. It's fantastic. And talking about it, I want one right now.

All right, here are my Three Low Key Loathes.

I'm despising number one - gas prices. They've been up and down lately, but more often than not they've been horrible in my area right outside of Philly. I'm seriously anxious whenever I see the sign that displays the red numbers about how much a gallon of gas is at the station. Maybe I should get a moped scooter that gets 70 miles to the gallon, like the one I had right after college. Hmm. Maybe we'll see.

Number two. I low key despise gluten-free pasta that's been reheated in the microwave.
Now listen, gluten-free stuff can really be hit or miss, but when I have to reheat corn-based spaghetti noodles, so I have something to put pasta sauce on for lunch, nothing seems to be right in life. Now I'm grateful for all the gluten-free stuff that exists out there in the world right now, but reheating, gluten-free pasta noodles, it's not my jam.

Number three. And finally, I low key loathe it when parents allow their children to have unsupervised access to any food buffet I might be eating from. Not only will kids touch your food in this scenario, they might also taste it, and then put it back on the buffet, sniff it, and then put it back, or Lord forbid, drop it on the floor and then put it back.
If I'm paying for all you can eat food, I'd prefer that food to be protected from sticky handed kids who might poison what I'm going to be eating with their undiscerning little fingers.

This has been the Low Key Three on Real Life Loading... Now back to my time with Reagan Rose.

Reagan let's keep talking through the nuances of how we should approach video games as Christians. As you said, we don't want to go too far in either direction, so your theory is that setting up rules for ourselves in game playing is good in the sense that guardrails on a highway are good. But you say that if we elevate the guardrails up to the same place as God's law, we've crossed the line into legalism. So why is legalism so destructive when it comes to this conversation about gaming?

Reagan: Legalism not only is it wrong, but you also end up committing basically the sin that Jesus was going after the Pharisees for - you become a hypocrite. You're adding to God's law. You start to be judgmental of others for something God never told you was a sin.

But it also cuts off the opportunity to think properly about things. It just puts an end to discernment immediately. And so, when we come at any question with unbiblical legalism we're saying, “Here's a rule I've made, and all of you should be obeying it too.”

Shelby: Yes, yes.

Reagan: You're committing sin yourself and you're making it hopeless for you to, to find a path that's actually going to address the heart issue.

Shelby: I think that's just done all the time, especially when it comes to this conversation. You know, or like judging someone for wearing a certain brand of clothing too. They're like, “Oh, they shouldn't spend their money on that.”

I've judged people. I remember a pastor pulling up one time in a BMW at this wedding that I was going to, and I was like, “Pastor shouldn't be driving a BMW.” But I'm like, I don't know, somebody missed it. Might've given it to him. He might've saved up for 30 years to buy the car of his dreams. Who am I to judge someone for that like that?
It's, again, that's not, it's a rule that I made up in my head. If you blanket statement say, “Nobody should ever play, you know, Grand Theft Auto Five ever. Like, nobody should ever play that game. And if you do, you're being sinful. That is elevating the guardrail. So, I like that you made that distinction.

Reagan: Yes, and you could say, “I don't think that it's wise to do that. That's why I don't do it.” You can have conversations that are open, say, “I don't think you're sin like here.” If you want to hear my side of it, here's why I think, and it might be a good idea for you too. But like you don't have to jump to being judgy about it and try to beat people down. It's good to have rules for yourself. You don't have to impose them on others. Like, it should be easier, but like, our hearts just love to judge people and look down on people.

Shelby: Yes, we're really good at it too.

Reagan: Yes, we are.

Shelby: Why do you say that how you approach video games is a matter of wisdom between you and God?

Reagan: Because it's a matter of the heart. God is the one who discerns the heart. God is ultimately one who judges the heart. It's not other people. It's not a set of rules that we've made up. Ultimately, it's something you have to discern through, think through carefully, and decide here is how I'll approach this. Because I'm trying to live the most God honoring life I can. And He's the one I have to answer to ultimately not these people, not these people, not society at large. Well, most people do this. No, it's God you have to answer to. So that's why you have to sort it out with Him.

Shelby: Yes, that's great. So, you give a lot of analogies in the book, and I like this one. Why do you say that for Christians, video games themselves can become like a side quest, that's the terminology that you used, basically a diversion from the main mission in life.

Reagan: Yes. If people who aren't gamers - in a lot of the role playing games, there's the main quest, like the main storyline they'll call it. Then there's these side little missions you can do our side quests.

For us the danger is that we get drawn off by anything in this life that's basically a side quest. We get distracted from the main mission, the main quest, which is to live a life of faithfulness before Lord Jesus Christ. We're trying to walk in His steps, we're trying to serve Him. We want to be found faithful.

If you let anything be that a sin or something that's not simple, but just draws too much of your attention away from that main mission Then you're sidetracked. Right? I think that that's a good way to think about it, is it can sidetrack you from what you've really been called to do.

Shelby: Yes. It was an interesting way that you talked about idol worship in many ways. Like the thing that pulls us away from the main thing, it becomes an idol if it starts to replace God in our lives and that could be anything. Again, it could be like bad things, but it could also be really good things. I love how you pulled that and said the video game itself is a side quest.

Reagan: Well, I think that's the thing is like I keep coming back to the heart because like it's so easy to kind of like stay at the surface level and that's when we get like legalistic about things.

Shelby: Sure.

Reagan: We say, “this thing good, this thing bad.” And there are things that are objectively sinful. But there's a lot of things, there's just a lot of gray. We’re like the thing itself isn't necessarily bad or good. We could do the same thing with any kind of entertainment, and we try to discern through it. But the question is, what's going on with my heart?

Because I don't care if your idol is made out of like bronze or wood or pixels. What the problem is, is that you're worshiping it. By worship it doesn't mean you're bowing down to the video game screen or something like that.

Shelby: Maybe the yoga ones. [Laughter]

Reagan: Yes, maybe. [Laughter]

Reagan: [Laughter] Yes, yes, maybe if you're doing the the VR game, you know. They might do that. No - but it's what's going on in your heart. It's am I giving to this thing affection that I should be giving to God? Or really am I looking to it for something I should be looking to God for - for comfort, for fellowship. Because sometimes we run, especially with addiction, you run to a thing to hide from something else going on in your life.

If I'm running to gaming, I'm hiding there. Or it could be something else. It could be social media; it could be pornography. It could be a bunch of different things, but the problem is I'm not running to Christ. That's where I should find my comfort. That's where I should turn to when I'm facing these things.

Shelby: Yes, absolutely, That's so true. Maybe we just don't take time to pause and think what we're doing when we are worshiping an idol of some kind. Someone recently, within the last two years asked me what I do in the evenings, and I was like, “I usually just watch YouTube videos.” And they're like, how much?
I was like, probably too much. And I was like, maybe I need to like work on this. Maybe I need, I need, it's something that, am I running to it? Am I medicating? You know, that's going to, it's not wrong to watch YouTube videos, but like, if I'm medicating with it, then that's, that's a, that's a totally different thing. I like how you're talking about the heart.

Reagan: Totally. Yes.

Shelby: So, at one point you mentioned there's a mission that we have as believers and then like these side quests that we can get distracted by. You mentioned the real mission. Can you unpack a little bit about what you mean by the quote, unquote “real mission for a Christian?”

Reagan: Yes. Well, the mission starts when you are called by Christ. When you put your faith in Jesus Christ, you repent of your sin. You trust in His perfect life, His death, His resurrection, so that you can be forgiven for sins, that you can have a right standing before God. At that point, it's not just because you're a Christian now, now what do you do? You're just in the waiting room to heaven.

Shelby: Mm-hmm.

Reagan: That's what I think a lot of times we get wrong. We think, “Okay, I'm saved now. I'll avoid the big sins. I'll go to church, and most of the time I'll just hang out.” No, there's work to be done. It's one of the most exciting things is like He didn't just save us from our sins. He also gave us a purpose in this life and that purpose is part of, that's proclaiming the gospel to others, telling them others of there's good news that they can be forgiven, made right with God through faith in Jesus Christ. But also, just serving Him well, doing your job faithfully, being a faithful student, serving at your church, being a good family member, showing forth what God is like being a good image bearer of Jesus Christ through your life. That's a huge mission.

That's the thing that we don't want to get distracted from. Because if you keep that front and center, you're going to, like it says in Hebrews, you're going to cast off every sin and every encumbrance that clings so closely because you want to run that race well.
If that's something that's not sinful like video games, for example, you're saying, I'm just going to set this aside for a season, or I'm going to only do an hour of this a day or something. You're doing that not because the thing itself is bad, but because the thing you're trying to accomplish is so good and so worthy of your time.

Shelby: Yes, I love that perspective. That's really good.

I heard the statistic that of the four major sporting companies, hockey, basketball, baseball, and football. All four of those combined make less money than the video game industry. When I heard that, I was flabbergasted about how much money that is. Because the NFL in and of itself makes billions and billions and billions of dollars, and so you combine football, baseball, basketball and hockey. And they still don't make as much money as the video game industry.

Do you have any input? I know a lot of young people understand that, and they're like, I have fun with that. Maybe I could do that professionally. There are people who get careers streaming live or they participate in eSports and stuff like that. Do you have any input on the streamer aspect? How do you think we should approach that as Christians?

Reagan: Yes, I think that's a great question. I've had that come up when I've talked to student groups about this. Someone will come and say, “I hear what you're saying. I do play video games a lot, but it's my job. Like I'm becoming a streamer. I'm working into this. And they're saying, “How do I think about that?” I think it's a very real thing because you really can make a very good living being a streamer or a YouTuber or something with gaming.

I think one way to think about it is just because you can make money from something that doesn't legitimize it. So just start there. [Laughter] Like that's, you know, there are ways to make money that are, are not good, right?

Shelby: Yes, they're not good.

Reagan: Yes, but at the same time, recognize it for what it is. It's a career as an entertainer. We know Christian actors, we know Christian comedians, right? It's a legit career path to be an entertainer.

But like with any career, any job, whatever you're trying to do, the goal is to glorify God in that. You need to be asking yourself, “If I'm going to go down this path, how can I use that to glorify God? How can I serve Him through that? How can I be a light in this dark world, even online?” There are streamers doing that and doing a great job at it.

I would also add a caution to that. Sometimes we like to like self-deceive, right? We might want to justify; I just want to play games. This just hold in the back of my head. Eventually, maybe I'll become a streamer, or I'll do this thing or that and, and that's because I really want to serve God. But really you just want to keep playing and you're trying to come up with an excuse. Again, look at your heart, examine your heart, think about it, bring it before God in prayer and think, “What am I really trying to accomplish here?”

Shelby: Yes, I think I remember you saying in the book, “If you want a reason to play video games, you'll come up with one.”

Reagan: Yes.

Shelby: And so yes, that's just like with anything we need to be cautious about that.
Dude, it was really great talking to you. I'm super thankful for your time and I really appreciate you.

Reagan: Thanks for having me on Shelby. I've really enjoyed the conversation.

Shelby: I'm not a gamer at all, but I really appreciated Reagan's perspective on this thing that's part of your life. Even if you don't play video games, I hope you are still able to apply some of Reagan's wisdom to your entertainment and media habits.

Now, if you liked this episode of Real Life Loading… or thought it was helpful, I'd love for you to share today's podcast with a friend, and wherever you get your podcasts, it could really advance what we're doing with Real Life Loading... If you'd rate and review us.

And it's unequivocally easy to find us on our social channels. Just search for Real Life Loading or look for our link tree in the show notes. I'm Shelby Abbott, and I'll see you back next time on Real Life Loading...

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