So…who Am I? Will Clock

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Season 2, Episode 84: So...who Am I?

Guest: Will Clock

Air Date: April 12, 2024

Shelby: So, if you could give any dating or romance advice, what do you think you'd say?

Will: Man, I don't want to oversimplify it, and obviously it's much easier said than done, but just don't overthink it. You know, if it doesn't work out, that's just another lesson learned--

Shelby: --Yes.

Will: --More growth, but really just don't overthink it. Just if you feel like saying something, say it. If you don't, don’t. You know, you'll be all right.

Shelby: Somewhat anxious, always authentic. This is Real Life Loading…

I'm Shelby Abbott and I'm here with Will Clock, a student at Old Dominion University in Southeast Virginia. Will, what year are you and what are you majoring in?

Will: I am a Junior. I'm studying biology and secondary education. I love science. I find it fascinating. It's a great way to just explore God's world and discover where in it I fit in.

That's why I love teaching too. I want to help students, who might not be as motivated or interested, love science and just grow as learners as a whole, not just a biology fact machine. But, how can we also help younger becoming men and becoming women grow in their ability to learn and be curious and understand where in God's world they fit.

Shelby: Is that what you want to do? Do you want to teach biology?

Will: Yes.

Shelby: At what level?

Will: Either middle or high school, I haven't decided yet. But yes, at least for the indefinite future, I don't know if that'll be a long term career, but I really do love it. I've been able to have some experiences in local schools.

Shelby: Have you done some student teaching then? 

Will: Yes, so literally right before this interview, I was at a local high school in a biology class. I love it.

Shelby: That's cool. That's really cool.

I'd also imagine too, that when someone with your physique walks in and starts teaching biology. [Laughter] I bet the students are like, this is cool. This is really cool.

Will: I've thought about that. And as trivial as it sounds, it's all, it honestly is kind of a tool that I can use to foster engagement.

Shelby: Exactly, yes, yes, yes.

Will: I remember last year there was this meme going around. This guy, giga-Chad, it was just this weird AI generated picture of this chiseled dude, and one of the seventh graders said, “Oh my gosh, it's giga-Chad.”

And I was thinking, all right, that's completely, you know, I don't look like him at all, but if you associate me with that and that helps you focus more, go for it.

Shelby: Yes, that's cool. So, well, is there something true about you that not many, if anyone would know?

Will: Oh, I tend not to share some of my health struggles.

Shelby: Okay.

Will: I don't want to always be mentioning it and seem like I'm, you know, hypochondriac. Oh, this is wrong. This is wrong. But it's really been a huge piece of my testimony over the last, what - six years or so. From the beginning of high school, I broke one of my hands playing football, one of the bones in my wrist.

That ordeal, in and of itself, was very long obviously physically taxing, of course, but very mentally, emotionally taxing, especially regarding recovery. It felt like it was going to be an eternity. I was starting high school already somewhat inhibited in my physical capabilities. That was my left hand. So, thankfully, not my dominant hand. I could still use it and whatnot. But it was very mentally taxing, just really discouraging. The idea always asking God, “When are you going to heal me? How long is this going to take and what way am I going to be healed really fully at any point?” It just felt like there was never going to be an end.

Praise the Lord for my left hand. I mean, right now it's fully functional. No pain, nothing like that. 

Shelby: Okay. How long did it take?

Will: Let's see. About a year and a half or so.

Shelby: It's a long time for a broken bone. 

Will: Yes. And then senior year I broke the other one. 

Shelby: Oh no really, you're right hand?

Will: And so, yes, doing the same thing, same bone, different hand. I had to get the same surgery. And that one kind of healed. I was in and out of a cast. And so, it again, same deal with the left hand. It was just super discouraging again. Is there ever going to be an end? It just felt very discouraging. I've had multiple concussions and both combining that with the lack of ability in my hand, plus my mental capacity is inhibited because of a concussion. School was really hard for a few months there. Which continually added to my discouragement of, am I good enough for these academics? Am I good in this area, that area?

I had goals that I then saw that I wasn't really able to reach, especially at a school, I really wanted to go to academically. I wasn't there and I was thinking, is this because of my concussions and this is inhibiting me from doing school well? It's just been a broad array of emotions and experiences over the last several years, as well as recently, I also had a small hairline fracture in my back. So, this is why I don't want to just keep putting this on people and I don't really talk about it.

Shelby: It’s like one thing after another, after another. Yes.

Will: But it really sucks and obviously physically it's painful. But it's again, that idea of God, “Is this going to end?”

It really has led to one of the Cru® staff was talking the other day at our large group about loss and pain and how we can have hope in the midst of that and at the same time distant hope and how we can respond. How does God respond and how can we respond in light of that? That was really helpful, because I'm still in the back recovery right now and somewhat my right hand a little bit still.

Shelby: Has it been an identity issue for you as you've gone through that? It's like now I was getting ready to play football and now that's been stripped away from me. I was getting ready to start again at school. It's been stripped away from me. Do you feel like that's God helping to remove some areas of your life that maybe you've leaned on in ways that you didn't see or understand before?

I don't know, I'm guessing here, because I'm actually probably projecting too because that's happened a lot with me with my pain.

Will: Man, I don't know. I don't even think I've thought about that, but it might be like it really has forced me to learn what does it mean to actually trust God when situations are not how I would prefer them. So, I don't know if specifically - identity, but just learning how to trust God in the midst of that has been pretty tough. But these situations have been instrumental in helping me learn how to trust God. And yes, I guess who I really am and my identity in Him.

Shelby: Yes. I found that for me, and I'm not going to say this is true of you, but like for me, reading Psalm 16 was super helpful of the boundary lines have fallen for me in pleasant places.

The limitations that God has allowed to be thrown into my life have been the things where I run up to that fence, so to speak, and I look over, and I'm like if only I could get to the other side of this fence because that's where true freedom is. That's where true life will be found in all my hopes and dreams of what I want my life to be, whether it be pain free, or super influential, or taller, or whatever it is. As in, that pipe dream is never going to happen.

But it's just, I run up to that fence all the time and I look over it instead. God has really helped me to see that, hey, these fences are here on purpose for your benefit. True freedom and true life is actually found within the boundaries, not outside the boundaries. I don't know. That's something I've been thinking about a lot in terms of like, who am I? What am I doing?

You're a big guy. What did you say you were six-four, six-five?

Will: Probably, yes. I was six, three and a half. I don't know.

Shelby: Six, three and a half. We'll round that up to six-seven then like, good for your stats.

Will: Go for it. 

Shelby: Yes, but like you're a big guy and no doubt you're obviously athletically inclined. I have met a lot of guys who walk with Jesus who have talked about basically how God has stripped away their ability to be able to do the thing that they want to do the most when it comes to athletics. Now I’m not saying that's you, but like that's happened quite a bit, and I've tried to like to listen and walk through that with them and say, “Hey. What might God be teaching you here in ways that you wouldn't ordinarily learn, if you were super healthy and doing super well?”

Will: Yes, man, I mean, absolutely. You're speaking right into how I've been feeling. I love moving my body, exercising, and recreating - I like that word. But, I just couldn't. And so, like you said, it's showing me my limitations. Yet at the same time forcing me to turn to the Lord and see in Him, actually He completely satisfies me.

You know, I might not be able to do all the things I want to do, but you know what? I'll be okay, because the Lord holds me and that's actually way better than what I would have imagined for myself as the perfect idea.

Shelby: Yes. I love that. Well, that's a great perspective, bro.

So, what's something about being in college that you didn't expect back when you were in high school? It could be good or bad. What has surprised you about being a college student?

Will: We are still immature, trying to figure out life. [Laughter] We're just a few years ahead. I don't know. For some reason, whenever we're in the previous stage, we look up to the next stage and we're like, Oh, we'll finally make it.--

Shelby: --Once I get there.

Will: Yes. Now, man, we're still in it. Yes, that's just something I've learned personally and just experience with other friends and other classmates and people I encounter.

Shelby: What areas of immaturity would you say?

Will: Understanding ourselves, understanding how to relate to one another, understanding how to serve others well. I mean, these are still things I'm lacking in my understanding to a certain point, but I think those are three big ones. It doesn't mean that everybody sucks at it. It's just, there's some areas where people are just trying to figure it out and kind of stumble along and step forward in life.

You know, a follower of Jesus may say, “What is God's will for my future?” If somebody who's not following Jesus would just be like, “What's the point? What am I doing next?”

That's always something that people are trying to think about. Relationships, specifically romantic relationships, are a very large focus. Unfortunately, it has a lot of brokenness related to just whether we've had past issues, or just a misunderstanding of what that could really look like or how to move forward with that.

Shelby: Yes, that makes sense. And I mean, speaking of relationships, I did want to ask you how you feel about your relationship status right now. Like what's going on with you?

Will: I've been dating my girlfriend for a little over a year. She goes to a different university, but I met her through a Cru® event. Beautiful, her heart is beautiful.

Just being able to grow alongside her as we both follow Jesus and learn what it looks like to do that together. Man, I love her. I'm super thankful for her. She's been absolutely a huge encouragement in my heart and my life and my walk spiritually, but also just in my work, in my school, and whatnot. She's been able to [help me] in learning how to grow in communication with her and in tender care for her, that almost spills out into being able to grow and doing that toward other people just in general.

Shelby: Yes.

Will: And, I would not have anticipated that, but God in His wisdom allows us, as we grow in that relationship, it just grows us personally. And so, I’m able just to learn how to love a little bit better each day because of her.

Shelby: You said she's at a different university. Is she long distance then?

Will: We don't really consider it long distance. It’s only a 40 minute drive or so on a good day.

Shelby: Oh, so no, not that much. But okay, I'm very curious about when you first started your relationship, how did that happen knowing that she's not like in your direct proximity?

Will: Yes, man. She's a year ahead of me in school, but we had, and we would both attend mutual Cru events. So, I'd met her. I'd spoken a few words here and there. I was thinking, “Man, this girl is beautiful, but she is way out of my league. I'm never going to get the chance to actually talk to her. There's no way she actually likes me.” What? 

And so, I would just get in my head and whatnot. At one fall retreat, looking back, my motivations for coming to fall retreat were maybe not the greatest. I was thinking singularly.

Shelby: That's all right. God works with that.

Will: Singularly, I am coming here to get Julia's number, and I didn't really care about what God was doing. 

Shelby: It's alright. He can fix that. It's fine.

Will: And so, at the end of the weekend, we spoke, we exchanged numbers.

Shelby: So, you did. You asked for her number.

Will: Yes. In person, I was right there.

Looking back, man, I was shaking in my boots. I was nervous. I had no idea what she was thinking of me. I was just throwing up a prayer, like, “Oh my God.” I was quivering. I had no idea what was going to happen, but I was thinking, you know what? I'll just try, see what happens.

And then upon talking about this many times after, since then, she was also apparently super interested in me, which I had no idea about. I feel like that usually happens if there's ever mutual interest, neither party really wants to get anything going, unfortunately. But I praise God that it worked out the way it did.

Shelby: So, you got her number then. You're obviously away from one another. Did you just What did you do, text her? Did you FaceTime her? What, how did it go from there?

Will: Yes, for the first several weeks, we just texted pretty regularly.

Shelby: Just texting back and forth, okay.

Will: Yes, yes. After three weeks or so, we went on our first date. Again, just was texting her, you know, “Hey, you want to go out and do this?” I don't remember exactly what I said, but she was available. We went out the following week.

Shelby: Okay. What's the first date look like for you, what happened?

Will: This is my thought process, right? Okay. I don't want to be just sitting straight across from her and we just have this kind of dry conversation. I'm very nervous. If it goes bad, we're just sitting there across dinner, and it's just super awkward. So, okay, let's go do something together at the same time. Let's go to the amusement park. It was around Halloween. Okay, let's go to Howl-O-Scream at Busch Gardens.

Shelby: Nice, Okay. 

Will: So I buy the tickets. I buy the tickets for $109. I remember the amount, because we ended up not going. 

Shelby: What? Ahhh!

Will: Also bit of a backstory - my car was completely out of order right now. It was not working. And so, I remember for the previous week and a half, I was begging every single person I knew who had a car, “Please, can I borrow your car? Please, please, please.” Because I was thinking if this doesn't happen, it's over. We're done.

My buddy, David Ruthier, he's graduated now, in the Navy. Oh, a God send. He let me borrow his Prius. And so, I pulled up, picked her up, and in her mind, she told me that she was thinking, I really don't want to go to Howl-O-Scream with this guy, but I still want to hang out.

And so, she just suggested we go out to dinner, and so that's what we did. Even though my initial thought had been, I don't want to do that. It ended up going great. It was great conversation. We spent some time walking through her campus after we're just talking. And we got back to her dorm, and we stood at my car, or David's car, and talked for two some hours. I don't know. It was awesome. I was like, “Okay, I think she might actually like me if she's willing to keep up this conversation.”

Shelby: She rejected your attempt to entertain her at the amusement park. Did she know that you spent that money already?

Will: No, and I did not tell her for like a couple months and she was like, What?

Because it was nonrefundable? That's okay. This is worth it.

Shelby: The first summer that Rachel and I were dating, we'd only been dating for like, two and a half, three months, she went to Florence, Italy to study abroad. I went to Florida for a summer mission with Cru. That summer I spent seven hundred dollars talking to her.

This is back when your phone only had a certain amount of usable anytime minutes. So, like, during the day, they were pretty rare. In the nights and the weekends, you can use them unlimited. But during the day, once you went over, they started charging you for every minute you talked. Because of the time difference, she's in Florence, I'm in Florida, we talked during the day, which is using my anytime minutes. On top of that, you had to use international calling cards in order to be able to speak to someone overseas. [Laughter]

Will: Wow.

Shelby: She's like, yes, old school. You had to go to like a CVS and buy this like calling card for like 50 bucks and then you can use the minutes on that.

So, I would use my phone to call into the calling card in order to call some random phone in Florence, Italy where she was. But I spent seven hundred dollars, and I didn't tell her about it until after we got engaged.

I was like, do you know how much money I spent on you that summer? Where we, like, really communicated and didn't have anything but communication. She goes, no. I was like, seven hundred dollars. She was like, what? I was like, I'm glad I didn't tell you at the time.

Will: Yes, and I mean I was about to say, I'm sure you would say it really didn't matter.

Shelby: Totally. Didn't matter.

Hey, thanks for sharing that story. Julia, you said her name is.

Will: Yes.

Shelby: Thanks for sharing that story about you and her, and I love how that went down. And here's what I love the most, that you guys spent a significant amount of time communicating with one another. That's how you get to know someone. You actually talk with them.

I understand why it happened the way it did with you initially, but I'm so glad that on your first date you actually leaned into the scariness of it, and the potential awkwardness of it, and got to know one another. That's really cool. That's really, really cool. Sorry about the nonrefundable tickets.

Will: Hey man, it's worth it, like you said.

Shelby: Yes. Since we're talking about dating, if you could give any dating or romance advice to an incoming Freshman for while they're in college, what do you think you'd say?

Will: Man, I don't want to oversimplify it. Obviously, it's much easier said than done, but just don't overthink it. Of course, that can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. It's very tough to do, but really like you'll be okay.

You know, if it doesn't work out, that's just another lesson learned, more growth. But again, like I hesitate to say it because I know that it's really hard to do and it can be hard for people to step into, but really just don't overthink it. Just if you feel like saying something, say it. If you don't, don’t. If it's the Lord's will to bring you together. Of course, that doesn't mean just abdicate and never interact with anybody ever, but put your foot out there. Is that the phrase? I don't even know. Anyway.

Shelby: Put your heart out there.

Will: Yes. Yes, feet, heart, anyway.

Shelby: Step into it by putting your heart out there.

Will: That's exactly what I was going for. I was just making sure you were listening. 

Shelby: You're so funny.

Will: And I've had various conversations with friends who are in the talking stage, if you will. I remember as well, when me and Julia were talking, it was super nerve-racking and I overthought everything. But you know, you'll be all right.

Shelby: Yes. You'll be okay. Yes. All the heartbreak, it is painful. There's no question about that, but it it's a really good teacher, a really good teacher.

I learned how not to behave by being broken up with several times. I learned that. If you brought any girl that I dated to this podcast, for example, first of all that would be super weird, if I asked them, what did I do wrong? Because I didn't break up with any of them, they all broke up with me. I'm thinking of three girls in particular, starting from college all the way up to before I dated Rachel. 

I think all of them would share very specific things about what I did wrong. But I would probably, if I was humble, nod my head at all of those things and go, yes, but those taught me how not to be in the future.

Just like anything else, you know, you fought when you're learning to walk, you fall down a bunch and you learn how not to put your feet. And then how to properly put your feet and where to displace your weight, and how to like to move your knees and all that kind of stuff that you just learn. Then you fall and then you learn.

I think like you said, a lot of people overthink it. They think, “Oh, it's gotta go perfectly,” or “I gotta have this perfect relationship with this person who's just my everything. They're my soulmate.” And that kind of mentality is just not reality. I mean, sometimes it works out that way, but not quite often.

What would you say, maybe as you think about your relationship, what is one thing that's been the hardest with you and Julia?

Maybe exclude the fact that your distance, that you're 40 minutes away. So, you can't say that. You already told me that. Is there anything else that you would say that's been really difficult for you guys?

Will: She and I are very different in how we communicate. I talk a lot. I verbally process and I can just sit and talk for hours, and am very much out here. She's very much in here. She's engaged, just because she's not talking doesn't mean she's not listening. She's just an internal thinker, internal processor. Sometimes if we're in a serious conversation and I'm saying things and I want her input or what she's hearing from me. Sometimes it just takes time. That was something I got to know about her.

Shelby: That is something you probably had to get used to it. Right?

Will: Yes. Yes. Yes, and still growing in that of course, but yes, we just communicate differently. And so, learning how to grow in patience as a way to love her and actually listen to her in empathy, actually supporting her in that. Yes, it's taken some growth, and I was not used to it. But by God's grace, He's helping us to grow in patience with one another, and just be like, okay, look, maybe I misunderstood, or I was impatient, but let's circle back here and let's touch on this. I really wanted to talk to you about this - things like that.

Shelby: That's great. Yes, one of the things that a friend of mine has said, he's older and wiser, when it comes to communication interacting with other people is fire your inner lawyer. Fire the guy who's standing up and defending you all the time. Like, fire that guy.

Because your lawyer is always going to justify every action, every thought, every word that you say, do, think, whatever. That guy actually is not your friend. He's actually your enemy. Because that guy represents, in many ways, pride and envy. Those two things are the opposite of what a Christian should be pursuing.

It's all over Scripture that God, “opposes the proud but gives grace to the humble.” [James 4:6] I have found, and I want to hear from you in maybe a specific area, that you wrestle with pride. I've found there have been men who have spoken into my life who have basically helped me to see that I am super self-righteous.

.

I was always a good kid. I was always the one who made the “right decisions” and longed for the approval of the adults in my life -. parents, teachers, coaches, all that kind of stuff. While it's good to live like a moral and upright life, if I was doing that from a heart of self-righteousness or in order to earn the approval of other people and of God, it's actually completely backwards. It's actually worthless.

Will: Yes.

Shelby: But when I've been able to see and listen to people who have called me out on my self-righteousness, it's actually been like this huge burden coming off of me. It's made me literally weep. Like, go to Jesus and be so thankful that He has forgiven me, that I am the Pharisee in Luke 18, who goes, “Hey, look at this like tax collector.”

Are you pulling that up right now, dude!? Okay. Dude, hold on one second.

Like are the tax collector is the bad one. I'm the good one. I do all this stuff. Then the tax collector won't even look up to heaven. He beats his chest, and he says God have mercy on me a sinner, and the tax collector is the one who goes away justified. The Pharisee does not. And I'm like, “Dude, I'm the Pharisee in this story. I'm the bad guy.” Even though I think I'm good, I'm the bad guy.

So, God has worked like that in my life to help pull out those roots of pride. How has that happened for you? You want to share something that's in line with that? Sorry if I stole your thunder, bro.

Will: Oh, good, man. I mean, I pulled up that exact passage that you were talking about because, if I could put that on a bumper sticker and like put that on my forehead, dude, it's been huge for me, because I feel that exact same way.

Like, “Oh lord, thank you that I am not like other men. I tithe double.” What does he say? I don't do this, that, I don't know exactly. But the tax collector, he doesn't even lift his head. He's standing in the back and all he says is, “God be merciful to me a sinner.” 

And Jesus says, “that man went down to his house justified.” I'm just repeating the same thing you just said, because this is so it's been so important for me to recognize: look, man, sometimes you are the Pharisee. Cut it out. And not just cut it out and then try to hope you figure it out somehow on your own. Turn to Jesus.

Shelby: Yes.

Will: He's inviting you to Himself. He will renew us. He will forgive us. He will wrap us in His love, and it is completely steadfast and secure. That's been a big struggle of mine. How can I grow in humility, especially in ways that are internal? Sometimes literally I'm great at acting a certain way, but nobody has any idea what's going on in my mind except me and God.

It can be so easy to put on a face and pretend, but God knows where our heart's at and He desires our heart. Right? That's all over Scripture. And so just surrender your heart to Jesus, turn to Him, seek forgiveness, and you will find it in God.

Shelby: Yes, I found that. Yes, when I became extremely convicted about it was like I was in my car and it's like me and God, and nobody else is in the car. I'm making judgements of people who are driving, who are like driving poorly around me, but then I'm also making like mental judgements of other people in my mind, in my heart, and that is like a come to Jesus moment where you're like, “Oh Lord, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Because the Pharisee, if he would have done the same thing as a tax collector, he would have walked away justified, but he didn't.

Neediness is not something we often think of as a virtue, but in the Christian life according to Scripture, neediness is the best thing ever. Because it makes you run to God, and God goes, “Yes, that's where I'm going to flex.”

Will: Yes, literally, like, if you feel that way that, “Oh man, I am that good kid who is. Oh shoot, I'm convicted about my pride.” A lot of times for me, I can then run to, “Oh shoot, well, I've been found out, now let me figure out a way to fix it on my own.”

Instead, He invites you to run to Him. When we are convicted of any sin, be it pride or anything else, it's not the end of the story, praise God. Like He wants us to come to Him, and He has more than enough abundant love, grace, forgiveness, mercy. You name it. He's got it. He is good.

Shelby: That's great. Well Will, I have loved talking to you today. Is there anything else that maybe popped to your mind, where I interrupted you, or something you would want to say or share with me that you feel would be helpful to part of our conversation. Up to you. 

Will: Man, this is apropos if nothing, but I still think it's important. A lot of people, myself included, just struggle with shame. Even those walking with Jesus. Even though we hear the gospel, for some reason it's so easy to continually be in this cycle of just shame. There is nothing we could do to ever earn our way into God's love, yet He loves us, bore that on Himself, and now we are completely secure. Right? 

Romans 8 [Verses 38-39, paraphrased] says that literally nothing in all of creation can separate us from the love of God. Why is it so easy for me to forget that? I don't know. But I know I need that continual reminder, and so, just an encouragement to always be running to the Lord when we feel shame. We think that it's going to somehow worsen our state with God. In our sin, we are already far from God, and there's no way we can really, like, get worse. 

But praise God that He desires to bring us to Him. Like, that's literally, arguably the whole point of the Bible, the whole point of Him doing what He did with Jesus. He wants you. Don't turn inward in shame, but turn to Jesus. He is tender with abundant mercy. He literally says his heart is gentle and lowly. He wants you. He loves you.

Shelby: You know shame is such a prevalent thing amongst so many of us in our culture today. I think it takes many of us out and away from experiencing God, because we're focused on the shame itself instead of the beauty of the gospel that eradicates shame. Will is totally right, and I love his zeal for what it means to be in relationship with Jesus, our Savior, who takes away the shame of this world.

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