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The Gospel Underground: Jesse Furey

with Jesse Furey | June 14, 2024
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Worried about sharing your faith? Pastor Jesse Furey, from the Gospel Underground podcast, reveals insights into Bonhoeffer Haus's mission, engaging neighbors and mentoring future church leaders. Drawing from his own journey through infertility, Jesse talks about silent suffering.

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  • About the Host

  • About the Guest

  • Shelby Abbott

    Shelby Abbott is an author, campus minister, and conference speaker on staff with the ministry of Cru. His passion for university students has led him to speak at college campuses all over the United States. Abbott is the author of Jacked and I Am a Tool (To Help with Your Dating Life), Pressure Points: A Guide to Navigating Student Stress and DoubtLess: Because Faith is Hard. He and his wife, Rachael, have two daughters and live in Downingtown, Pennsylvania.

Worried about sharing faith? Pastor Jesse Furey, from Gospel Underground, explores faith amidst suffering in silence.

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The Gospel Underground: Jesse Furey

With Jesse Furey
June 14, 2024
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Jesse: You can't experience something really good and have the joy become complete without telling someone else.

Shelby: Ah yes.

Jesse: Like a really good meal, you've got to tell someone about this meal, a movie that you've seen, Oh, Dune Part Two, you got to go see this movie. It's incredible. Or, you know, an experience you had that it's like, Oh, it's incomplete until you have a chance to tell someone.

And I really do think, that is when we get the gospel, when we see the face of Jesus, when we get Him, our joy is incomplete until we tell it to people.

Shelby: Real help for relationships in your twenties, this is Real Life Loading…

I'm Shelby Abbott, and I'm here with a long time friend of mine, Jesse Furey. Jesse is a Pastor in Radford, Virginia, and one of the co founders of the Bonhoeffer Haus, which is a family of churches partnering together to form future church leaders. Did I describe that well enough?

Jesse: Oh, that was perfect.

Shelby: Was that perfect? Okay, how would you modify what I just said?

Jesse: Well, we started the Bonhoeffer Haus eleven years ago with a vision to help local churches in our area have a holistic way of training and sending out leaders. We wanted to bridge the gap between the seminary and the local church. If you feel like, hey I think I might want to do ministry. I think I might want to be a pastor, or a leader in the church and the pathway is I want to go to seminary. We want to say, “Hey, look, there's actually a really great opportunity to stay local, to take seminary classes, but to take them not in the context of your basement with a laptop, which is one way to do it. But actually, to do it in a cohort of other people that are going through the same classes in a local church with classes that are credited through our seminary partner, Southeastern [Baptist Theological Seminary] in Wake Forest, North Carolina.”
We want to bring seminary classes to the local church, help local churches have apprenticeship programs, where people can be trained and developed and sent out. We help local churches in our area to start and run apprenticeship programs. We bring seminary into the local church, and really we think this is the best way to train leaders to do it in person.

Shelby: Why?

Jesse: Yes, great question. Imagine a hammer. You don't learn how to use a hammer by just looking at the hammer. Right? You don't just put it on the table and look at it and go, Okay, now I see the hammer, I know how to do it.

Shelby: Okay.

Jesse: You don't even really read a book. Now, you could - How to Use a Hammer: Idiots Guide to Hammering. [Laughter]

Shelby: A best seller. [Laughter]

Jesse: But the best way to learn how to use a hammer is to pick it up and to use it with someone else who knows more than you know about it, who's more experienced and who can kind of be there with you going. All right, look, your finger goes beside the nail, not on top of the nail, you're going to hurt yourself.

That's why we think it's best. Because it brings the solid theological education that you can get through a seminary, like Southeastern, into the context of a local church where you can do an apprenticeship with a mentoring pastor or church leader, who is giving you some face to face time and some shoulder to shoulder time, where they're just bringing you along, saying, “Look, you just need to come along and see how it's done.
Be around ministry.” Then eventually you're the one doing it while your mentor is watching and going, all right let's talk about how that went and why you think it went that way.

Shelby: What are they observing then? Are they observing sermons, discipleship, counseling? What's happening there? Not just classes though, right?

Jesse: Everything you just said.

Shelby: Everything. All of it.

Jesse: All of this would depend on the particular church and the particular context of the apprentice and the mentor. But I might have a guy who will just tag along with me into a sermon planning time, might come to staff meetings, elder meetings.

The way we'll do it is we'll often invite our apprentices to come to our elder meetings, but they're sort of sitting on the outside. And if we're discussing something that is private, we'll just say you've just got to leave the room for a little bit. We'll call you back in when, when you can come back in. It may be like maybe like a younger guy co-leading or serving in a small group leader capacity where you are kind of taking turns, you lead this week, I lead next week.

So yes, not just the classroom. The classroom is helpful, but this is much more helpful. If you're taking a class on personal disciple making and you're reading books about, how do I make disciples or missions? I'm reading these books on missions. It's better to read a book on missions, while you're also going on a missions trip with your mentoring pastor. Or, you're learning how to have a conversation with someone in the coffee shop who doesn't go to church in a way that isn't super weird.

Shelby: Okay. So, my guess is that this is because you had so much good experience on staff with Cru® for so many years. You probably saw the major - I'm putting words in your mouth so stop me when I've committed Jesse Fury heresy here - but you've had so much experience doing hands on campus ministry, and you saw the value of that, but you also appreciate theological training, intellectual training, all of that kind of good stuff, and you thought those two need to be married in a way that's legitimately going to push forward God's work in the Kingdom. Specifically within the context of America, the way that America does ministry. Is that probably accurate, or no?

Jesse: Shelby, that is spot on. The only thing I would add to that is I love where I live.

Shelby: Yes.

Jesse: So, there's something regional to it as well, where I'm not trying to like help change the church in America, or really what I want is, I want healthy local churches in my kind of valley. Or, the couple of valleys around here, that are going to be around in twenty or thirty years so that my kids and my grandkids, God willing, will have churches that are giving them the gospel and loving them.

Here's the other thing that I'm really passionate about, in addition to what you mentioned is helping churches to relate to each other as like Kingdom friends. In other words, that it's not just rivals trying to get the same people. It's not even what's better than that. It would be partners, but partners sometimes can be transactional to the point where, if you don't have anything that I need, then what are we doing?

Shelby: Yes. What are we partnering for?

Jesse: We really want to have church leaders that have come up in friendship together, been trained together. Then are pastoring nearby so that they can kind of help their churches go, you know, the Kingdom is worth it for us to partner with these other churches.
So yes, everything you just said. I had a great experience with Cru, loved all the hands on training, disciple making, and just thought I'd love to do this in the context of my region and local churches and add some theological education into it.

Shelby: Yes, I love that. It's pretty rare, right? I would say that there's not a whole lot of mentorship programs that are going on. There's, well, we both know Tim Henderson is doing something, but that's not the same as what you're doing.

Jesse: Yes. Tim Henderson's in Roanoke doing a Fellows Program, which is amazing program.

Shelby: Fellows Program, which is more, if you think medical fellow, like people following around Dr. House from that show. [Laughter]

Jesse: It's a little bit like that with Tim Henderson. [Laughter]

Shelby: Yes it is. He has a cane. He's very curmudgeony. He abuses prescription drugs. No, none of that.

Jesse: No, none of that.

Shelby: Except for the smart part.

Jesse: He is brilliant. We actually partnered with the Fellows Program with Tim Henderson. They take classes with us. It's a great partnership. But he's really focusing on a nine to ten months postgraduate. It's very similar though, in the sense of they're grabbing college graduates and getting them connected with mentors and their particular vocational fields that they want to go in and feel called to serve the Lord in.

But what we're doing is pretty unique Shelby. A lot of people are doing residencies, so you'll hear of residencies all over the place.

Shelby: Okay.

Jesse: So that's kind of a big thing now. And part of that is church planting organizations are finding that there are fewer and fewer guys who are just ready to plant the church.

So, they're sort of working backwards and going, all right, well, we need to develop them more in the context of healthy local churches, which I think is a good development. We're kind of another step back. What we're doing with the Bonhoeffer Haus is a little more like, if you think about baseball, we're like Single and Double A baseball. We're just, we're like a farm system. We're trying to get real life action where you get to swing at the ball and you get game action, but you're not necessarily in a residency or pastoring yet. I think that's pretty unique.
Shelby: Yes. It's unique, and running with the Single A/Double A illustration, you also have a very strange name. [Laughter] Because a lot of minor league teams have like—

Jesse: --Banana Slugs.

Shelby: Yes, the Banana Slugs. I can't think of any team names right now, but there's a lot of weird ones.

What does Bonhoeffer Haus mean and why did you spell “Haus” wrong?

Jesse: That's a great question.

Shelby: No, it's not. It's a horrible question.

Jesse: It's a fun question Shelby. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was a theologian. Really, it's kind of hard to categorize his life. He died in a concentration camp. He was opposed to Hitler. But in his time helping the confessing church as a theologian, he started an underground seminary that was like a house seminary, gathering some men together in the confessing church.

They sort of went off-grid. They ended up in a place called Finkenwalde, which was just sort of small town off-grid where he did life together with a group of guys who were training. He was sort of like an older brother, almost like a spiritual father to them. They did class time together. Then they also did Bible study together, and then they chopped wood together, and then they played soccer together. It was just a very kind of. comprehensive—

Shelby: --Life-on-life.

Jesse: Yes. He wrote the book Life Together based on that experience.

Shelby: Incredible book, by the way. Very, very good book. Very counter American culture right now.

Jesse: Yes. One of the co founders, Pete Schemm, had been teaching at Southeastern and he taught a class where he integrated life together. When we first met the very first time, I was in a coffee shop and I'm reading Life Together. He sits down across from me and he's like, “Oh, I teach that book.”

And I was like, “Oh, I'm thinking about”—

Shelby: Cool, I'm Jesse.

Jesse: Well, to be fair, we were planning on meeting.
Shelby: Oh, you were. That’s okay. [Laughter] I'll be like happened apart from one another.

What are you doing here?!

Jesse: No, the truth is Shelby, he had just become the pastor of the church that was our biggest financial supporting church when we were on staff with Cru.

So, whenever they got a new pastor, I was like, “Hey, we need to meet.” I need you to see that I'm a good guy.

Shelby: Yes, I'm a great guy. You should definitely continue your support. This ministry is important.

Jesse: Yes, but what we ended up talking about is I told him, I'm really feeling your church should definitely keep giving us support.

However, I'm considering a career change to take some of what I've learned with Cru and invest in young men who want to be trained for pastoral ministry. I'm reading Bonhoeffer as a kind of framework. So, he and I sat down that day and we sketched out on the back of a napkin what it might look like. So, that was the beginning of the Bonhoeffer Haus. We spelled it H A U S, that's the German spelling. But the truth is Bonhoeffer House, H O U S E, the website was already taken. [Laughter]

Shelby: That's a good motivator for like being creative, right?

Jesse: Oh yes. We were like, I guess we're going to go with the German spelling.

Shelby: I guess he was German, so it makes sense -yes.

Jesse: That is the true answer is that now we like it. It's kind of unique.

Shelby: Yes, it's unique. [Laughter]

Jesse: But at the time it was like - hey, the website's are available for fifteen bucks.

Shelby: Yes, so fifteen bucks a month?

Jesse: A year. It was a year. Nobody wanted to buy this website. GoDaddy™, Yes.

Shelby: It's like, I’ve got to buy it, GoDaddy.

Oh, well, you also co-host a podcast called The Gospel Underground with a mutual friend of ours which I haven't seen him in a very long time, Reid Monaghan. What is the goal of that podcast? If you had to sum it up, like elevator pitch wise.

Jesse: Yes. We want to help our listeners to navigate the borderlands between the church and culture. It's somewhat apologetics. It's somewhat cultural kind of theory. It's a lot of boots-on-the-ground, how to talk to your neighbor about Jesus. How to think about things like AI and technology. What do you do with social media?

So really, we're trying to just kind of systematically go through a lot of the different areas where the church and culture overlap. Christians often don't know what to do. They don't know how to navigate.

Right now, we're in the middle of a series where we're talking about answers. How to give good answers on the resurrection or on the Bible. Is the Bible reliable? We're not strictly an apologetics podcast, but we're really just trying to help our listeners navigate the culture in ways that are faithful, always ready to give an answer for the hope that they have with gentleness and with respect. Yes, that's what we do, the gospel on the ground.

Shelby: That's awesome. And that's really helpful.

Can you give me what would be maybe a different border land area that people would want to hear about, like a young person. Sexuality is obviously one of them, but we've talked about that so much. Do you have anything that you're like, this comes up a lot with young people? I feel like we get help here.

Jesse: That's good. Yes. Relationships, family relationships, how to navigate your teenage years in a family.

We are actually about to do something on sexuality. We're really, what we're doing is what does it mean to be a human? What does it mean to be a human made in the image of God? What makes you uniquely Imago Dei? Then how does that relate then to sexuality, gender, relationships?

Technology, artificial intelligence. Reid is a physics major from UNC, who is brilliant. So, we do a lot of things in terms of science, and I was not brilliant or a physics major. So, so I'm—

Shelby: --Neither of those. Not that those are mutually exclusive, but at the same time you were neither.

Jesse: I was neither. [Laughter] So, a lot of times, I'm like trying to just imagine the regular listener. I'm like, “Okay, Reid, what is, say that again, but explain it like I'm five.”

Shelby: Great explanation. Now I'm going to need you to explain it like I'm three. So, I'm from an old office.

Jesse: He says he starts as an eight year old then ends up as a five year old. So yes, right now we're about to do important human sexuality, anthropology - what does it mean to be human?

Shelby: Yes. I think this is one of the things we've been talking about in my church a lot too, is the missional aspect of a normal, everyday church. That's legitimately trying to be intentional and not just the pastors guilting the people in the congregation into wanting to share their faith, because that just doesn't work. It doesn't work that way. But like helping to number one, equip them, but then also help them and gain a heart for why they should do those things.

It's actually quite difficult. It's a relatively uphill battle of saying, like, because when you come into a relationship with God, when you read the Scriptures, you discover pretty quickly that “you're never drawn in by God without being sent out by Him.” That's a Tim Keller quote. What does that mean for me?

Oh, I'm not allowed to just sit and soak in the goodness that God gives me. Yes, I will constantly do that. But I'm not just supposed to be lazy and be insular with a bunch of other Christians all the time. I need to actually get out there and do it, communicate my faith. Do you feel like your guys are trying to answer some of those type of natural questions? Like, what do I do? How do I say stuff? Like, that kind of stuff.

Jesse: Oh yes. A lot of what we're trying to do is that. Reid has a, he calls it: ASSLDAR [A=Among; S=Share your life; S=Share the Gospel; L=Listen; D=Disrupt; A=Answer questions; R=Repeat] . It's an engagement idea around how you approach talking about Jesus with people.

Shelby: It's an acronym? Not just a word you made up.

Jesse: I'm trying to remember what is an acronym.

Shelby: There's this word we made up called ASSLDAR.

Jesse: It's a land where Thor lives. [Laughter]

Shelby: It’s a land just outside of Narnia.

Jesse: So, think about like: asking questions, sharing your life, sharing the gospel, listening, disrupt, the “D” is for disrupt. How do you ask questions that disrupts the world view? And then repeat.

There's a lot that we're trying to do with just saying, “Hey, if you're just trying to live out a missional life.” Or I was just talking about this with my kids this morning. We were reading 1 John 1. In 1 John 1, John has this real heady stuff. But he ends it with, “I wrote this letter to you to make my joy complete.”

We were talking about how you can't experience something really good and have the joy become complete without telling someone else. Right? Like a really good meal, you've got to tell someone about this meal, a movie that you've seen, Oh, Dune Part 2. You got to go see this movie. It's incredible. Or an experience you had that it's like, Oh, it's incomplete until you have a chance to tell someone. I really do think that is like the Keller quote: “When we get the gospel, when we see the face of Jesus, when we get Him, our joy is incomplete until we tell other people.” So, we are trying to help people tell other people.

Shelby: Yes. I've said to the students, like with the meal thing, I'm like, even a response like “mmm” to a good bite of food is like telling people - it's telling people that you're enjoying what you're experiencing. It's a knee jerk reaction to the good stuff in our lives. You've got to look around and find those people. This is too good to keep to myself.

Helping people to understand that your view of evangelism, or maybe even just talking to other people about what it means to be a Christian or follower of Jesus, has got to shift from this is a box checking responsibility that I have to, “Mmm,” like a knee jerk reaction.

Jesse: The great thing about that illustration, Shelby, is that you don't have to have a really developed palate to explain to someone what makes that meal so particularly good. You know, you just be like, I don't know. It tastes so good. Some people that have a good palate and they can be well the paprika and this, that. but sometimes you just be like, “Ah, it just tastes really good. You should taste it.--”

Shelby: --It's really good.

Jesse: “It's so good.” I think, if we can help people Christians think about sharing the gospel like that. Like, yes, I don't necessarily know, my palate isn't super developed, but I can at least say, “It's really good.”

Shelby: This one guy asked me, “What was one of my illustrations for evangelism and why people should do it, and I was like well What's your favorite restaurant?”

Jesse: Mm hmm.

Shelby: He said something dumb like Cracker Barrel. Well, that's not dumb. It's not dumb, because my wife thinks it's dumb, I love the Cracker Barrel actually. But he said something not unique and snooty. He said something like chain.

Jesse: Mm hmm.

Shelby: Let's just say he said Cracker Barrel. I was like, okay, Cracker Barrel is your favorite restaurant. What's your favorite thing to eat on the menu?

He goes the chicken-fried steak.

I was like, okay. What else is on the menu that you observe?

He goes, well there's you know chicken and dumplings and meatloaf.

I was like, what else is on the menu? Tell me everything you know about the menu. I want to hear everything that's on the menu at Cracker Barrel.

He's like wait, I mean they serve breakfast too.

And I was like, alright. So, I was running with this to help him understand. I was like, okay once he did as much as he could there, I was like, alright now tell me who's the waitress that usually gives you the best service?

I don't know.

Do you know any of the names of the waiters or waitresses that work there?


Do you know the name of the chef in the back, the cooks, the people who clean up? Do you know the people who run that country store at the front of the house?

No, no. I don't know it. I don't know it.

Then why should I ever go to Cracker Barrel?

He was like, “I don't know, because the food's good.”

And I was like, exactly. There's your metaphor for evangelism.

You don't need to know everything about the Bible. You don't need to know everything, how to answer everybody's questions. What you do need to say is, “It's just good, and I think you should go there too.” It's that thirsty sheep telling other thirsty sheep where to find water kind of a thing.

Jesse: Mm hmm.

Shelby: Jess, you and I have known each other for such a long time, and I haven't seen you in person for several years. But there's a possibility you're coming up here to Philly soon, right? At some point, to maybe speak at my church, because my home church and your home church are in the same network. And so, because of that, I'm excited at the possibility of being able to see you a little bit more often. But I push the blame squarely on your lap for us not seeing one another.

Jesse: I figured you would.

Shelby: Yes, that's just my vindictive nature holding things against you. You also have, what, nine, ten kids? Twelve? Twelve kids now?

Jesse: It's four. It's four.

Shelby: Four. That's right. Four. My bad.

Jesse: Yes, four kids. Yes. Four kids.

Shelby: Well, that's actually one of the things I did want to talk about. You and Jenny experienced a prolonged season of infertility.

Jesse: We did.

Shelby: Can you talk? Maybe to a young couple who might be listening right now and helping them, because this is obviously a deeply painful experience to go through, but it's one that you understand.

If you had to like talk to that young woman or young man or just a couple in general who's going through maybe what you went through, what do you think you'd say to them?

Jesse: Man. So, going through infertility when you're trying really hard. You really want kids. It's a bit of a silent suffering, because even if you've made it public, we're trying to have kids, your suffering is not obvious to the watcher. It's not something that many people see.—

Shelby: --What you are facing.

Jesse: Most people don't really know what to do with it. I think the thing I would say is, for Jenny and I, we found that that time really drove us to prayer and to each other a lot more than I think if things were easier.

The Psalms, a full third of the Psalms are Psalms of what one scholar, Walter Brueggemann, calls Psalms of disorientation. There's Psalms that capture what it feels like to feel disoriented. To feel like I thought that things were supposed to work out. Why are they not working out?

Shelby: Yes, that's good.

Jesse: You know, infertility is a very disorienting thing, because you're doing what God designed your bodies to do. You're trying to be faithful to honor Him with like, look You made us to procreate. You said, “Be fruitful and multiply.” We're trying, and yet it's not happening. That's disorienting. Like, why isn't it happening? And so, I think go to the Psalms in prayer. We had a pretty regular prayer time around God building our family however He wanted.

Shelby: Okay.

Jesse: In that time, our love for adoption grew. And so, I don't think that needs to be everybody's story.

Shelby: Yes.

Jesse: But for us, as we prayed, “Lord, whatever way You want to grow our family, we want to be submissive to that, and we pray that You do it and You do it soon.” We just felt like, I think, maybe we should pursue adoption and we did. And so, our first, our oldest is adopted.

So, just know that you're not alone. That would be another thing is if you are in a church community where there's some safety there. Then I would talk about it. I talk about it with people that you trust. Know that not everybody's going to respond well. You'll have opportunities to extend grace and forgiveness to people that aren't being mean, but they are being stupid.

Shelby: Insensitive at best. Yes, stupid on average. A jerk at worst.

Jesse: Yes, yes. So most, almost nobody was just mean, but there were many people that I just felt like, man that was really dumb what you just said.

So yes, talk about it. Know that it's not going to be easy. I found the more that we talked about it, the more it was like, Oh, there's like six other couples in our church that are going through the same thing or had gone through it. We didn't know it because generally most people don't talk about this kind of thing, especially probably ten years ago, fifteen years ago.

I think maybe it's a little more common to talk about now, but yes, you're not alone. And look, there's no - anybody that tells you that if you just trust God, He'll give you kids, that's not true.

Shelby: Yes, that’s not true at all.

Jesse: It may be that it's God's will that you don't have any biological kids. He can have a reason for that. That may be part of what you, you know - the burden or the cross that you bear, the suffering that you have. And yes, so don't let anybody just sort of wave their hand at you and say, “Oh, I just pray more, just have more faith. It'll all work out. It will all work out in the end.” But that may not look like you having kids.

Shelby: Yes, that's great advice. I like the way you described it at the beginning of the silent or nonvisible suffering that people aren't able to see.

Another group of people who get a lot of comments, a lot of comments of people being stupid, are singles in the church as well. Singles are a little bit more forward facing. You can understand, maybe, a little bit more obvious on the surface that they're suffering from something. If they want to be married. I'm not saying they want to be married. Some people choose to be single for their whole life. But for some people, it's not really their first choice. As a result, they get a lot of “advice on like how to proceed.”

But if you're a married couple and you're not having kids There is that like - it's not obvious on the surface or people start to say stuff that's just like, “You guys want to have kids, right?” Why aren't you having kids yet? Then it's like that was a stupid question, and you have no idea what we're going through right now. You have no idea how much we've cried about this. Again, people aren't trying to be intentionally wounding, but they can say a lot.

If anything, as you're in church and around other people who are married and don't have kids, be careful. Just be cautious about how you communicate with them, because they could be going through a season of really deep wounding and pain. They feel isolated. I love that advice that you said too: “You're not alone.”

Jesse: Yes.

Shelby: You mentioned the Psalms, too. You said disorienting? Is that what it was?

Jesse: Yes, Psalms of disorientation.

Shelby: Disorientation. We just did this thing with the youth group in my church, and I led this time on Psalm 88. Psalm 88 is the Psalm that doesn't ever make the turn toward, but God You're great anyway, or but I will worship you anyway. It's just ends. It starts on a sour note. It continues as a sour note, and it ends on a sour note.

What I encourage the students to do, and granted this is like six through twelfth grade, I said, “I want you guys to take some time this week and maybe write out your own Psalm 88, not like pretending it's Scripture. But write out your own honest prayer about how you're doing right now and feel the freedom to be upset.

Jesse: Yes.

Shelby: Because if anything Psalm 88 gives us permission to be a mess and to be angry, to be upset.

Jesse: That's great Shelby. Those Psalms, the Psalms of disorientation and laments, they don't all make the turn. Some of the ones that make the turn, you're like, yes, that's about as far of a turn as I can make. It's like, I know that I will see the Lord in the land of living. One day He's going to sort it all out. In the meantime, This just isn't good.

One last thing I'd say that came to me is you and your spouse, if you're listening, you should talk and agree on what are we going to say to people. Who are we going to say it to? Be in agreement. And you might even be ready to give an answer to someone who does ask a stupid question or an insensitive question in a way that is giving grace to the listener. Right?

That says, you know what? That's actually really hard for us right now because we've been trying now for a couple of years and not everybody knows that. You probably didn't know that. But, and you might even follow it up by saying “and I don't want to talk about it. I just want you to know.”

But again, this would be something, I think as a couple, you'd want to agree on so that, you know, you're not. Spreading this out here while your husband's like, well, I don't want people to know.

Shelby: That's great advice.

I had this feeling that Jesse and I wouldn't be able to cover everything we wanted to talk about in only one episode. So, we'll have him back again next time to talk about why we tend to think of imitation as a bad thing. But biblically speaking, imitation is exactly what we should be doing. And that'll be next time. So, check that out.

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I want to thank everybody on the Real Life Loading… team. I'm so grateful for you guys. You make it happen and I love you. I'm Shelby Abbott, and I'll see you back next time on Real Life Loading...

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