Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, May 28th. Our host is the president of FamilyLife, Dennis Rainey, and I'm Bob Lepine. If you've been thinking that having a Christ-centered marriage means praying together from time to time, we're going to see if we can expand your definition a little bit today. Stay tuned.
Dennis: And welcome to FamilyLife Today, I'm your host, Dennis Rainey.
Bob: What is going on here?
Dennis: Well, you've been teaching our guest's book with a number of businessmen and churchmen at your church.
Bob: Not really teaching – here's what's been going on. A group of guys get together on Wednesday night at the local deli.
Dennis: How many guys?
Bob: There are – well, it started with about eight, and they're up to 14 now, okay?
Dennis: So it's growing?
Bob: It's growing, and we get our cheese dip or – that's what I get every week, is my cheese dip, and …
Dennis: You do like cheese dip.
Bob: We get it, and we just sit around the table there at the deli, and I basically open up this book and point out all the places where it has stepped on my toes, and that just provokes conversation.
Dennis: And you brought this book to me saying, "Dennis, this is where the guys that are in this" – you're not calling a Bible study, but it's just a get real, get honest …
Bob: We call it the "Men of McAlister's," that's the name of the deli. So – the Men of McAlister's.
Dennis: That sounds real biblical.
Bob: It's pretty spiritual, don't you think?
Dennis: Yeah, that is. So I thought, you know, I'd welcome our listeners to the broadcast and let you introduce our guest, since you've been – well, your feet have had surgery.
Bob: You're saying I'm taking over on today's program?
Dennis: Because he so stepped on your toes. I'm looking forward to hearing about what God's done in your heart because of his writing.
Bob: Dave Harvey is the guest on today's program. Dave, welcome to FamilyLife Today.
Dave: Well, thank you, I guess I should apologize for stepping on your toes.
Dennis: No, no, no, that's Mary Ann …
Dave: That's a good thing.
Bob: That is a good thing, and I can tell that yours were stepped on before you stepped on mine.
Dave: Indeed, yes, marriage steps on my toes all the time.
Bob: Dave is the author of a book called "When Sinners Say I Do." He also pastors a church in the Philadelphia area, Covenant Fellowship Church in Glen Mills, Pennsylvania. Where, in relation to the city of Philadelphia is Glen Mills?
Dave: It's southwest of Philadelphia.
Bob: All right, and you've pastored the church for a couple of decades, now, haven't you?
Dave: That's right. I've had the privilege of pastoring now for 23 years.
Bob: And this book, you know, just a book called "When Sinners Say I Do," it kinds of starts off in your face, don't you think?
Bob: It does, it does remind me of some of the marriage counseling I received. When Barbara and I were contemplating marriage together, a counselor looked us in the eye, Dave, and he said, "Now, Barbara, I want you to look at Dennis. Do you realize he's a wretch? He's a selfish, he's potentially" – and then he wasn't smiling anymore, he said – "he's potentially and adulterer, a liar," and I was, like, Whoa!
Then he turned to me and said, "And, Dennis, look Barbara in the eyes. Do you realize who you are about to marry? Another wretch." And it's really the premise of your book because it was two young people with stars in their eyes starting out their relationship that had puppy love for one another, and we were about to say "I do," but just like you point out in your book – we started out our marriage realizing it was two very imperfect people beginning a marriage relationship.
Bob: In fact, you say, to start off here, that what we believe about ourselves and what we believe about God, those are really the two most important things for our marriage, right?
Dave: Yeah, one of the ways I illustrate that is by talking about how it's important to get the right buttons correct, and I use an illustration of one day when I was up in my closet, and I'm buttoning my shirt, it's in the dark, and I button it up, and I go downstairs, and I had gotten the first button wrong, and as a result all the other buttons were wrong.
Now, this shouldn't happen to me as much as it does, but I'm always putting my wife in a position where she has to decide, "Well, should I tell him or should I just send him along to the office?"
But it illustrates the importance of getting that first button right and making sure that all the other buttons are correct. And so what we believe about God is going to determine the quality of our marriage, and that's the first button. We've really got to get that locked and anchored down because it determines not only the quality but the trajectory – in other words, where it's going.
Bob: Now, help our listeners unpack that a little bit, because they're thinking "I don't understand the connection between what I believe about God and the quality of my marriage."
Dave: Well, for instance, Dennis was just telling the story about how when he first met his wife, and they were talking about getting married, how they were being informed that they were sinners.
Bob: Right.
Dave: That's a theological reality, that's something that Scripture reveals to us. And so we begin to study Scripture, and we begin to understand how God views us and what God says about us, and it's those kinds of theological realities that need to come into the trenches of marriage so that we can understand – How does God see us? How are we supposed to see one another? And that begins with the reality of our sinfulness.
One of the statements that I make in the book is a quote from an old Puritan pastor named Thomas Watson. He once said that until sin be bitter, Christ will not be sweet. So the goal is not that we're just ever exploring our sinfulness and going on this journey into the labyrinth of our sinful heart. It's more that we discover who we really are; that we might be able to exalt in the Gospel.
Dennis: And notice where you start – you don't start with just how wretched we are, as individuals. You start with who God is, and I'm reminded, as you were talking about one of my favorite quotes by A.W. Tozier who said "the most important thing you think is what you think about God."
Dave: That's right.
Dennis: Because if you see God for who He is, you'll see yourself for who you are, and two people, two imperfect people, who can tend to be selfish in a marriage relationship and I'm sure you and Kim have struggled with that over your 25 years of marriage, as you've raised, what is it, now, three children? Is that right?
Dave: Four kids.
Dennis: Four kids and one stray cat, too.
Dave: That's right.
Dennis: I'm sure you had to struggle with your selfishness, but it's God who brings us back to the answer, and how two imperfect people really deal with one another.
Bob: Well, and, in fact, I want to ask you about this, because I have some friends who would say to me, "You know, I just don't like the premise of the book because, in Christ, I shouldn't focus on the fact that I'm a sinner, I should focus on the fact that I'm a new creation. I should look at who I am in Christ not who I was apart from Christ," and they would argue that it's their position in Christ. It should be when saints say "I do." How do you respond to that?
Dave: Well, I would encourage them that, yes, they are saints, and Scripture does reveal that we do share that status, that designation, but we're also mysteriously sinners as well, and that even though we're saved, that doesn't completely resolve the problem of sin. The Puritans had a way of putting this – that the cross breaks the dominion of sin, but the presence of sin remains, and that's what we see in Galatians, chapter 5, and in Romans, chapter 7, where there is this conversation about ongoing sin, and James says, "What causes fights and quarrels among us, it's the desires, the passions at war." And I experienced that.
I experienced that in my own marriage, and it's been part of that experience that contributed to my desire to write the book because it wasn't simply something I was seeing in other people. It was the reality of ongoing sinfulness, and that's a reality that has to be imported into marriage each and every day.
Bob: Okay, but, again, you know that there are folks who are listening going, "Yeah, okay, I know Jesus died for my sins, and I'm married, and I'm having conflict. Now, how does importing the 'Jesus died for me sins' into my marriage help my marriage get any better?"
Dave: Well, it reminds us of the work of Jesus Christ and how that needs to be a reality. For instance, I have a conflict with my wife, and we're squaring off, and sharp words are being spoken, and feelings are becoming hurt in the process.
Bob: Like, can you think of one recent? [snorts, laughs]
Dave: That's not very difficult. We've certainly experienced our share of conflicts in our marriage, and I would say that all of them follow a familiar pattern. We will engage each other, we will be tempted to say things that we shouldn't say, and then we have decisions to make about what we believe and how we want to relate to each other.
Dennis: Give us an illustration of what you're talking about – a recent illustration, since you're a pastor.
[Bob chuckles]
Dave: Well, one that has been – continued to be a factor within our marriage ever since we've been married has been my love for order, and Kim's enjoyment of a more free-flowing kind of environment.
Dennis: Well stated, well stated, Ambassador.
Bob: I put it this way, I say …
Dave: I think she'll appreciate that.
Bob: … it's her creative spirit, don't you think?
Dave: That works, and that's very descriptive of my wife.
Dennis: So how did it work out? Tell us what happened?
Dave: Well, early on in the marriage when we would encounter these power struggles, we often found that things would be elevated because I would be trying to impose a way of doing things on the home, on the different systems of the home, or maybe on the way that she was supposed to think about something.
Bob: Stuff like laundry or – I mean – where would it be that you would go, "This is not the order that I expect in my living situation?"
Dave: It could have been laundry, and it can be filling up the gas tank, it can be cleaning the home, how meals are done. You know, it's just the rhythm of life.
Dennis: Four children?
Dave: Four kids.
Dennis: There's a lot of chaos.
Dave: There is a lot of chaos.
Dennis: There's no rhythm there. I mean, you're talking about that the house is a mess at times, right?
Dave: Well, that's true, and each additional child was more chaos.
Bob: So you'd come home and encounter chaos, and what would you be likely to do in that scenario?
Dave: Well, I could begin to feel anxious, and I could begin to feel as if this is not right; that there has to be an order that reflects biblical priorities and propriety and begin to biblical on her.
Dennis: You're going theology here, and your wife is pulling her hair out. I've walked into this house.
Dave: It didn't help at all.
Dennis: We raised six, Dave.
Dave: Yeah, it's very true. It didn't get far with her, either. But it illustrated, I think, an area where I had what I think can be a legitimate desire, a desire for order. I mean, there are the – the world runs through order.
Bob: Right.
Dave: And yet when that desire is elevated to a demand, then, all of a sudden, we find ourselves squaring off with one another and insisting that our spouse accommodate our desires that have become demands. I mean, the Scripture calls them idols, and so often we don't realize that they're in operation.
So the Gospel informs us that we are sinners. The Gospel informs us that there are these idolatries that we're fighting because there's passions and desires and conflict within us.
Dennis: And you're fighting because there are other ways of doing things other than just your way.
Dave: Exactly, yeah.
Dennis: And they're not wrong ways.
Dave: They're not wrong ways, but the person that has a desire that has been elevated to a demand doesn't realize that. They want their own way, and they are legitimizing it with biblical references.
Dennis: So what do you do when you realized you are imposing your way on Kim?
Dave: Well, that's where the spirit of God is so good to show us where we are drifting from God, and where we're placing our trust and our security in things apart from God. And so in this situation, I've had many experiences where, through the help of my wife, through my private devotions, or through even some of the other guys on the team just getting a perspective on our marriage – questions being raised. And I begin to say, "Oh, my, yes, it does appear as if this has left the area of an ordinary expected legitimate desire and become more of a demand, more of an idol." And that gives me the opportunity to repent of my sin before God, and then to confess my sin to my wife and to receive that forgiveness and just to receive the reconciliation.
Dennis: Tell us what you'd say to Kim. What would be the words when you've come to the conclusion that you're trying to control it, it's your way, and you're not being respectful of her way, huh? No, no, I'm putting you on the spot, here …
Dave: No, it's a great question.
Dennis: But do you know why I'm doing that? Because we have a whole generation of marriages today, and Bob knows this to be true. I mean, these young couples are getting married. They've never seen this or heard this, so I want to illustrate the profound theology of what you're talking about here in the most practical essence I can.
So right over here, to your right, is Kim. Turn to her and demonstrate for us what that sounds like.
Bob: But before you demonstrate what it sounds like, let me demonstrate how it shouldn't sound based on my own experience back early in my marriage, because I would say things …
Dennis: Many, many years ago, of course.
Bob: Yes, yes. Certainly, it's never occurred since I've become so sanctified, but in the early years of our marriage, this is one of the areas where Mary Ann had to help me see the log in my eye. I would say to her things like, "Well, honey, I am sorry if I hurt you." Okay? So, right there, do you spot the problems there, yeah?
Dennis: That "if I hurt you" is a key phrase.
Bob: Or – you know, "Honey, I am sorry, but there's," – you know, right there, "if" and "but" don't belong in any apology, which I didn't know at the beginning, and, really, if you pulled back and asked, "So just how sorry are you?" Well, I was sorry that we were in a mess, and I was sorry that she was feeling the way she was feeling …
Dennis: Mm-hm.
Bob: But I wasn't sorry about anything going on in me. I really was very self-righteous and thought, "I'm sorry, but the problem is you. I'm sorry if you've misperceived things."
Dave: It goes all the way back to Genesis 3, doesn't it?
Bob: It really does.
Dave: "The woman you gave me, Lord."
Bob: Yeah.
Dennis: Yeah, "I'm sorry because you're sorry."
Bob: "I'm sorry because you're punishing me."
Dave: "I'm sorry because you're a sinner, and I'm not."
Bob: So if you're going to do it right with Kim, and you realize that you've been a little cranky because you've expected stuff, and you've elevated your expectations to these kinds of idols and sinful desires that you've talked about, and now you're going to sit down with her, and you're going to come clean. What are you going to say to her?
Dennis: Now, you better do a good job of this, because I'm going to tell you, Dave, if you don't, I'm calling Kim on the phone right now.
Dave: Well, sadly, guys, I've had many rehearsals and many opportunities to do this.
Dennis: You're good at this, you're good at it.
Dave: "Dear, he has done it again, the idiot that you married has, in an almost predictable way, sinned against you by desiring his own way over God's way, his own way over what's best for you, and I have not taken you into consideration but have more tried to impose upon you what's going to bring me the most security. Would you please forgive me for that sin, that desire to control and to seize control of our home and away from God, and would you please forgive me for the selfishness that that reflects? Oh, thank you for forgiving me once again."
Dennis: No, no, no, no, no, she's looking back at you, and even though that sounded very sincere and very contrite, she says, "I'm not sure you really mean it." What do you say then?
Dave: I say, "Well, please feel free to ask me any questions that will help you to understand exactly where I am. Draw me out, and take your time. If you need time to reflect upon what I've said and to go to God yourself" – because ultimately I'm not looking to get in between her and God on this – I want to give her what I think I need to do biblically. But I want her to be able to engage God so that when she does come back, she can say, "I forgive you," and in saying that, she's releasing me from that sin, and that doesn't continue to visit us for weeks.
Bob: Here is what I love, and I didn't mean to interrupt you, but here is what I love about what you modeled with that. You did not give a generic apology. You were very specific, and when your wife hears you being specific, there is some sense that there is some genuineness and some reality to that. She knows you're not just coming quick, trying to smooth things over and get things back to normal, but you've been doing some business with God.
Dave: Yeah, we were joking earlier about Genesis 3, but I do think that inherent to all sin is an attempt to divert attention from the sin, and so there is something in each of us that when we go to actually confess, we'll want to locate the responsibility for that sin outside of ourselves. And so I think part of moving towards God, part of applying the Gospel, is saying, "No, I am the man. I did that sin. This is the sin I did," and being specific because it's one thing to say, "Well, I was a little upset with you, dear," but it's another thing to assign a biblical term and say, "I was angry, I was feeling wrath in my heart." Boy, that has a sting of conviction that those more generic terms don't bring.
Dennis: I have two observations to make about this. Number one, I thought what you did was great, I really did. I thought you demonstrated to us men what that looks like, and Bob and I were sitting here listening and going, "Yeah, yeah, yeah," because you were covering the issues that need to be covered as a man who had broken his wife's heart around the matter."
Second point – you're good at that because you've had a lot of practice.
Dave: That's true.
Dennis: And you've done it, and I think the first time a man asks his wife for forgiveness, it may not come out quite as smooth as how you did it, but if you're committed as an imperfect leader of your family, as a man, to confessing your wrong to your wife and asking her to forgive you and even, if need be, taking time to forgive you, you will get better at it.
Now, I'm not saying it will be easy – ever – because I don't like asking for forgiveness. I don't like admitting I was wrong. But what you just demonstrated was a great picture of taking God's Word and applying it to real life. Your theology and your picture of who God is intersected a disappointment and lifted you out of a situation that ultimately could lead to the death of a marriage if it goes unchecked.
Bob: Well, and your commitment to seek forgiveness is first driven by a commitment that says "What I care most about in this marriage is that God is glorified; that He is honored; that I am living the way I ought to be living as a husband or as a wife; that I want to please Him. I want His heart to be glad by how I am doing what I promised to do to my husband or to my wife, and this is important stuff to God, this matters a lot to Him, as we've tried to make clear on today's program, and I think you make it clear in your book, which is called "When Sinners Say I Do," and I'm thinking of a lot of young couples that I know who are getting married this summer including one in our own family, our daughter, Katy, is going to get married later this summer, and this is a book that I think is a perfect book to give to those couples who are getting married to help them understand that how they view their relationship with God is going to ultimately shape everything about their relationship with one another.
The book is called "When Sinners Say I Do," and it's a book that we've got in our FamilyLife Resource Center. You can go to our website at FamilyLife.com, and on the right side of the screen there's a box that says "Today's Broadcast," and if you click where it says "Learn More," it will take you to the area of the site where there is more information about the book, "When Sinners Say I Do."
There is also information about the FamilyLife Marriage Bible and, again, if you're thinking about couples who are getting married this summer, to give them both Dave's book and a copy of the FamilyLife Marriage Bible, you are giving them a gift, at that point, that can help them establish a solid foundation for their marriage – help them build their house on the rock.
Again, you can find both of these resources on our website in our FamilyLife Resource Center. Go to FamilyLife.com and click on the right side of the home page where it says "Today's Broadcast." You can order these resources from us online, if you'd like, or you can call 1-800-FLTODAY. 1-800-358-6329, that's 1-800-F-as-in-family, L-as-in-life, and then the word TODAY, and when you call us, someone on our team will answer any questions you have about these resources or make arrangements to have them sent out to you.
You know, in everything that we do here at FamilyLife, what we want to try to do is point husbands and wives, moms and dads, families back to the Scriptures and back to an understand of who God is as you try to navigate through represents in life because we really believe that in order for relationships to function the way they ought to function, we have to start with an understanding that God wants to have a relationship with us in Christ, and when we have a relationship with Him, when we place our trust in Jesus Christ, we receive God's Holy Spirit who makes it possible for us to have the kinds of relationships with one another that honor and glorify God.
And those of you who support this broadcast as financial contributors to the ministry of FamilyLife Today, you are helping us provide this kind of practical, biblical help for marriages and families day in and day out through this radio program, through our website, FamilyLife.com, and through the other resources that are available from us here at FamilyLife and through our Weekend to Remember Marriage Conferences. We appreciate your financial support, we appreciate your partnership with us, and we just want to take a minute and say thank you not only for listening and for praying for us but also for your contributions to the ministry of FamilyLife Today. It is always great to hear from you, and you are appreciated.
Now, tomorrow we want to talk about conflict. Is it possible for conflict to actually honor God? Is there a way to get from being angry with one another to God being glorified? We'll talk about that tomorrow. I hope you can be with us.
I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch, and our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our host, Dennis Rainey, I'm Bob Lepine. We'll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.
FamilyLife Today is a production of FamilyLife of Little Rock, Arkansas – help for today; hope for tomorrow.
