Finding the Sacred in the Secular – Jordan Raynor

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Finding the Sacred in the Secular

Guest:Jordan Raynor

From the series:Five Mere Christians (Day 1 of 2)

Air date:May 5, 2025

Jordan:Fred allowed the Lord to transform his pain into a passion of serving others, who had similar struggles. He had a Hebrew rendering of Song of Solomon 2:16 hanging in his office: “My Beloved is mine, and I am His.” In the middle of taping …Neighborhood, he would just hole away in his office. He would stare at that and remind himself, in the busyness of his day, that he was loved.

Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave:And I’m Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave:Okay, what do you think? We got Jordan Raynor back with us.

Ann:I love having Jordan with us, don’t you?

Dave:Oh, yeah. You, Jordan, tackle—you hammer home; I mean hammer home—that work matters. When I look at you—

Jordan:It’s getting annoying, isn’t it?

Dave:No, it’s awesome!

Ann:No, it’s like in our brains.

Dave:One of the reasons I’m excited—I don’t know anybody else hammering this in the Christian world—it’s like the secular; there’s the sacred—we think the secular and sacred never mix; it’s only sacred. You’re like, “No, secular matters because it is sacred”; right?

Jordan:Yes! Because Jesus is Lord of it all. So as we go throughout this world, in the power of the Holy Spirit, that same flame that represented the presence of God was with Moses, is with us, walking and reclaiming territory for the kingdom of God. I think I’ve said it here before: “The only thing you have to do to make your secular school, your secular workplace, sacred is walk through the front door or log onto Zoom”; right?

Dave:Explain that; why?

Jordan:Let’s define some terms. That word, “secular,” literally means “without God.” But we believe that God is literally with us wherever we step. It’s not what we do that determines whether or not our work is sacred. It is why we do it; how we do it; and most importantly, who we do it with—communion with the Holy Spirit—as we do that work and live in our communities today.

Dave:You talk about something that’s critically important. Jordan, you don’t even know the story—I don’t think I’ve ever said it on air, because it sounds conceited—

Jordan:Yeah? Come on.

Dave:—so I’ve kept it under. It’s a secular/sacred conversation. I played college football; I get done with my senior year. I get a call from Cincinnati Bengals that they don’t want to draft me, but they want to offer me a free agent.

Ann:Wait; you don’t think you’ve ever shared this?

Dave:Not on air. Maybe I have; have I?

Bruce:I’ve heard it twice.

Dave:Bruce knows everything.

Ann:I don’t doubt it.

Dave:Have I shared it a bunch?

Jordan:Keep going; we’re not sure yet. We’re not sure yet.

Dave:Bruce, you’re serious? Okay; Bruce hasn’t heard it. If Bruce hadn’t heard it, it hadn’t been shared. Maybe it’s been shared in that room, but not on air.

Anyway, so I’m a brand-new Christian—a year young in my faith—don’t know anything. I go to my mentor on the college campus; and he’s not really an athletic guy, but he’s my mentor. I say to him, “Hey, so I have a shot to go to camp with Cincinnati Bengals. Doesn’t mean I’ll make it, but I have a shot.”

Ann:And you’ll get paid money.

Dave:And I’ll get paid a little bit; but if I make the team, I’ll get paid a lot, even back in the ‘70s. I say to him, “I want to do what God wants me to do. How do I know God’s will for this decision?” He looked straight in my eye, and he said, “God does not want you to play in the NFL. He wants you to go in full-time Christian work; that’s not full-time Christian work. You’re called to ministry. Call them back and say, “No”; so I did.

Jordan:So sad.

Dave:And I’m not sitting here, saying, “Hey, I would’ve been the next Tom Brady.”

Jordan:Sure; sure; but probably.

Dave:Yeah, probably, probably; yeah. Thanks for— I like you, man. I love you

Ann:At least, Doug Flutie.

Dave:I like you, man; I love you.

Ann:At least, Doug Flutie!

Dave:Doug Flutie, I could have been. Yeah, I was a little guy like Doug. But anyway, all that to say: “That was really bad advice.”

Jordan:It was terrible—

Dave:I know.

Jordan:—advice. But it’s the advice that so many young people are hearing. It’s why I’m so deeply committed to this work and championing this message in nonfiction books like The Sacredness of Secular Work that we talked about here before; picture books like The Creator in You and The Royal in You. Also, I’m trying to break into this new genre of extremely entertaining biography because—listen, there’s only so many people, listening, who are going to read a book called The Sacredness of Secular Work—but if I told you: “Hey, we got a beach-read that you’re going to crush at the beach this summer and just love,” and “Oh, by the way, be inspired that your ‘secular work’ matters,”—I don’t know—a different listener might pick that up and be forever changed.

Ann:So you’re saying, with these biographies, there’s people that you see, historically, who have had an impact on the world; and they’re not necessarily in full-time vocational Christian work.

Jordan:Yeah, that’s exactly right. The name of this new book is 5 Mere Christians. Other than being a blatant steal from C.S. Lewis’ Mere Christianity, it’s a term that I use to describe the vast majority of our listeners, who like me, are not donor-supported missionaries or pastors; but who are working out in the world as entrepreneurs, and baristas, and teachers, and nurses, et cetera, et cetera.

The story of Scripture is that that work is celebrated; in fact, Jesus spent 80 percent of His adult life as a “mere Christian.” If we can call our Lord and Savior that.

Dave:Did you just call Jesus a mere Christian?

Jordan:—I did—I did not; I did not!

Dave:That’s blasphemy.

Jordan:Scrap that from the record. Scrap that for the record.

But Paul; and the women who financially supported Jesus; and Zacchaeus, who was encouraged to go back to his “secular work” as a tax collector and do that work. But I don’t think we can always fully resonate with these biblical mere Christians. And the good news is we’ve got great stories of men and women who glorified God greatly in their work in more recent history. Those are some of the stories that I’m trying to tell in this book.

Ann:And it’s not boring. I was fascinated, and I couldn’t stop reading.

Dave:I just got to tell you the truth. I read it first; and then, I told Ann because she looked at it—honestly, she’s like, “Really? Biographies? We’re going to read it?”—I’m like, “You will not believe this.”

Ann:I like biographies.

Dave:Yeah; I mean, she was like, “Okay.” And then, I’m not kidding—Jordan, we’re not just saying this because you’re here—these are fascinating. I know Fred Rogers, I think; and then, I read his story; I’m like—

Ann:Well, there’s a movie on him.

Dave:—“You’re bringing out stuff nobody knows.

Ann:Yeah.

Jordan:I have a love/hate relationship with biographies if I’m being totally honest. I took on this project because I wanted to write the kind of biography I wanted to read. First and foremost, was: mercifully short. We were saying before we started recording the most popular biography on Winston Churchill’s life is 3,000 pages long.

Dave:No, it isn’t. It really is?—3,000 pages.

Ann:I love history, but—

Jordan:Churchill’s mom didn’t care about him enough to read that biography.

Ann:Well, that’s the thing: we start them; but most of the time, we don’t finish.

Jordan:We don’t finish them! So I wanted biographies that were short.

Number two: I wanted biographies that were extremely entertaining. I’ll give you an example. Most of C.S. Lewis’ biographers agree that Lewis had an affair with his best friend’s mom for most of his 20s. That’s pretty scandalous—

Ann:What?!

Jordan:—and pretty interesting, especially in light of his future redemption. But I promise you: you would fall asleep reading about this affair; because these biographers spend 20 pages, and letter after letter, of: “Did they or didn’t they?” Just get to the action and the point of the story!

Finally, I wanted to write biographies that are personally relevant; because so many biographies make the subject the hero. I’m saying, “Hey, no, no, no. The subject is a guide. Paul said, ‘Follow me as I follow Christ’; that’s what I’m trying to do with this book. I’m saying: ‘Follow Fred Rogers, and C.S. Lewis, and the founder of Lego, and Fannie Lou Hamer, and Hannah More as they follow Christ; and show you animated three-dimensional models of what it looks like, practically, to glorify God if you’re not a pastor or donor-supported missionary.’”

Dave:Why these five?

Jordan:I host a podcast called Mere Christians, where I interview modern mere Christians. These are the five I most want on the show, but can’t because they’re dead—that’s the short answer—because they point to practical takeaways for the readers today of how to glorify God. For example, Fred Rogers, I think, gives us a really beautiful case study of what it looks like to truly experience the love of God as we work and work at a pace that allows us to extend that love to other people.

Ann:Remind our listeners who Fred Rogers is if they don’t know.

Dave:[Singing] “It’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood.”

Jordan:He’s going to do the whole thing.

Dave:There you go. That’s good now.

Jordan:I actually did not grow up watching Fred Rogers.

Ann:We didn’t either; our kids didn’t.

Jordan:But tens of millions of American kids did. He was the host of a wildly popular TV show called Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood. He’s just one example of somebody whose life is extremely interesting and entertaining; but again, that points to these practical takeaways; so that’s why I picked him.

I picked Fannie Lou Hamer, the civil rights activist, who stood up to President Johnson on national TV and almost caused him to drop out of the race for the presidency in 1964. I picked Ole Kirk Christiansen, the founder of Lego, who most people don’t know was a deeply serious follower of Jesus, whose story very closely parallels Job in the Old Testament. I picked Hannah More, this poet largely credited for abolishing slavery throughout the British Empire. And then, of course, C.S. Lewis, author of The Chronicles of Narnia and Mere Christianity, who changed the world through his works of fiction.

I picked these five because I’m competing with Netflix and TikTok, and I’m competing to win. I think these stories are better and more entertaining, if told properly, than what’s on TikTok and Netflix. Again, they point us to practical, tangible ways to glorify God as we live our lives in our modern context.

Dave:Alright, let’s go; let’s go. What do you want to do? Do you want to do [singing] …Beautiful Day in the Neighborhood? You want to do Fred?

Jordan:Let’s do it!

Ann:Yeah, let’s do it.

Jordan:You want to talk about Fred?

Dave:Tell us about Fred.

Jordan:So a lot of people don’t realize that Fred spent years—up to eight years by some biographers’ estimation—debating whether or not he was going to pursue a calling in TV, like Mr. Rogers Neighborhood, or whether he was going to go into full-time pastoral ministry. And so, for eight years—

Dave:—”NFL or ministry?”

Jordan:“NFL or ministry”; that’s exactly right. “JV or Varsity?”

Dave:If I would’ve had your biography in the ‘70s, I could have made a different decision.

Jordan:You could have made a different decision.

Dave:You’re going to teach us that he did ministry, even though it wasn’t called that.

Jordan:That’s exactly right. For eight years, he splits the difference. He would go to work at the TV station in the morning; and then, on his lunch break, he would drive across town to Pittsburgh to attend seminary classes. By the time he earned his degree, he knew that God was leading him to work in television; but he still wanted to be ordained by the Pittsburgh Presbytery—to do so because he just felt like this was a calling from God—and he wanted the Presbytery to recognize that.

Sadly—although not surprisingly, based on the story you just shared, Dave—the Presbytery vehemently disagreed; refused to ordain Fred Rogers. They pushed him to a career in pastoral ministry, but he wouldn’t do it. Thankfully, there was this one member of the Presbytery who believed in Fred—this guy named Bill Barker—who believed that Fred’s work on TV was ministry. I pulled up the quote from the book here:

Barker goes before the Presbytery after they give the decision not to ordain Fred. “Fred,” he says, “look, here’s an individual who has his pulpit proudly in front of a TV camera. His congregation are little people from the ages of two or three on up to seven or eight. This is a whole congregation of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of kids. And this man is as authentically called by the Lord as much as any of you guys sitting out there.” Mic drop; walks out of the room. Short story: the Presbytery does ordain Mr. Rogers.

But here’s what I love about the story. A couple years later, Barker is going on vacation to Scotland. He stumbles across this neck tie that’s a blue and black tartan pattern. It’s this pattern/that’s this tie traditionally worn by Presbyterian clergy. Barker buys two of them: one for himself, who was a donor-supported pastor, and one for his friend, Fred Rogers. Fred loved it so much that he wore it for years on air to give a “subliminal message” that he believed he was doing full-time ministry on Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood of showing Jesus’ love to the kids on the other end of that screen. He loved it so much that he actually asked to be buried in the tie. To this day, Fred Rogers is six feet under, wearing that blue and black tartan tie.

Here’s the point for our listeners today: “Guys, just like Fred, all of us are part of what 1 Peter calls ‘the royal priesthood.’ It is no longer just literal priests, who represent God in the world and extend His blessings; it’s every carpenter, every entrepreneur, every teacher, every television personality, any Christian doing genuinely good work.” That’s why I wrote 5 Mere Christians: to show readers that truth in a fun, binge-worthy, entertaining way; but also, to challenge them to do that work more faithfully for the glory of God and the good of others.

Ann:I was even intrigued with Fred about: “Don’t you wonder? Where did that compassionate heart come from for kids?” You tell the story about that he came from a wealthy family. He had a driver drive him to school every day; but then, after school one day, didn’t get in the car; because some kids bullied him. They were calling him “Fat Freddy.” He ended up running all the way home; but as he was running, he’s praying, “God help me.” He said, “It’s the first time I really recognized that God was real.” It was a tangible part of his life that he realized he needed this God. You understand? Because he was so sensitive to kids that had been bullied—kids who felt out of place—he just had a compassionate heart towards the underdog too. You could feel it in his episodes.

Jordan:And there’s a couple of things I take—I love that that story stuck with you, because I love that story—there are a couple of things I take away from it. Number one: Fred allowed the Lord to transform his pain into a passion of serving others, who had similar struggles.

And two: in that scene is the first time we see Fred truly experiencing the love of the Father. All throughout his career, he made time, not just to read the Word, not just to pray; but to sit and watch his heavenly Father watch him to experience the love of God. For 30 years or so—I actually had this sign that hung in his office reproduced for my own office—this is how meaningful this was to me. He had a Hebrew rendering of Song of Solomon 2:16 hanging in his office: “My Beloved is mine, and I am His.” In the middle of taping …Neighborhood, he would just hole away in his office. He would stare at that and remind himself, in the busyness of his day, that he was loved.

And you hear all these stories—and maybe, some of our listeners are familiar with this—of the extraordinary acts of kindness that Fred showed people. I’ll just rattle off a couple:

One time, he’s sitting in his apartment in New York, and looks across the street, and sees a guy getting mugged. He’s at the height of his fame; he’s recognized by everybody. Fred leaves his apartment—he’s writing a script for the show—goes outside; walks across the street; hands the victim a $100 bill, and says, “I just want you to know that you are seen, and you are loved by the God of the universe”; and walks away.

This other time where this little girl named Beth Usher was going under surgery by Dr. Ben Carson. Remember Dr. Ben Carson ran for President for 30 minutes? Ben was going to do surgery on this girl. This girl—the only thing that made her 100-plus seizures a day stop was watching Mr. Rogers’ Neighborhood—the mom writes in; she says, “Hey, can Fred send a picture/a signed picture for her surgery?” He’s like, “I’ll do you one better. Make sure you’re home at seven o’clock”. He sits there, after a long day at the office, and for an hour and a half, talked to this girl about her fear of dying, about the fact that she didn’t have friends; and then, hangs up the phone—hangs up the phone—he’s got a family of his own at home; looks at his wife. He said, “I got to go.” Calls Dr. Ben Carson, says, “I’m coming to sit with this kid during surgery. One rule: no press.” He goes; and he sits by this girl’s bedside, just to show other-worldly love.

Ann:But he didn’t want anybody to know.

Jordan:He didn’t want anyone to know. But here’s what I read about Fred’s life. I’ve never read of a person who’s more Christ-like than Fred Rogers, ever. I read these stories, and it feels so impossible. I’m like, “How did he do this? He’s got a family to take care of. He’s got all these responsibilities, professionally”. I believe the secret was he took time every day to experience his beloved-ness as a child of God. I think if we—modern professionals, moms and dads—we take time to feel the love of God, for our cup to be so full we won’t be able to contain it all; and we will have to share it with other people in ways that are radical; and beg the question: “Why?”—to which the answer is: “Jesus Christ.”

Dave:How would you say you do that? How do you sit? Maybe you don’t sit, but how do you experience your beloved-ness?

Jordan:One, I’m a really practical guy. I have to have physical things around me that remind me of His love. I don’t know what that is for you. Maybe, it’s a verse; maybe, it is a picture of some experience in your life that you remember and recall, “Man, I felt God’s love in that moment.” For me, it’s that Song of Solomon 2:16 in Hebrew hanging over. Every time I walk through my doorway, I’m remembering the love I have in God. That’s one practical way, some physical reminder.

Second, it could be time to put a little quiet time back in quiet time.

Ann:I was going to say: “Mine is just being in the Word every day.” It’s a love letter.

Jordan:Yeah! A lot of people’s time in the Word is reading, reading, reading— intaking information, intaking information—closing the Bible; and then, going throughout the day. We don’t sit and dwell on the Word and really think about what we just read and see God’s love for us in what we read.

For me, those are two things: physical reminders, Dave; and then, taking time to read the Word and reflect on how God’s showing His love to me in what I just read.

Dave:My only thought was going to be that I’ve done the one-year Bible on my phone. I started to realize—because it’s on my phone—if I don’t turn off notifications, I’m gone; because a text will come in—or any little ding—I’m like: “I need a real Bible I think,” or “Turn off my phone.” I need a real Bible that separates; put the phone in another room. Don’t even have my watch on; and then, just say, “I’m going to be locked into experience”—what you just said.

Jordan:Man, I’m so glad you brought this up. I have no technology during my time in the Word. It is a physical Bible, and I do it for a couple reasons:

One, so I’m not distracted so I can experience the love of God.

But two, I want my kids to see the physical Word of God so that they don’t mistake me reading the Word on my phone as me checking text messages.

Ann:Yeah; and that’s why I got you a Bible! Good thing I did that.

Jordan:Come on; what’d you get? What’d you get, Dave? What’d you get?

Dave:The One-Year Chronological Bible.

Jordan:Oh!

Dave:Am I right? I’ve never done it that way.

Jordan:I like that.

Dave:You can take a pen and you can actually write on this paper; and you can make notes.

Jordan:I wasn’t planning on sharing this today—it’s a little off-topic—but whatever; let’s go there. In the spirit of helping my kids feel the beloved-ness of God, I changed up my Bible study habits. I got one of these wide-margin Bibles.

Ann:That’s what I have; great!

Jordan:But what I’m doing is I’m writing a personal commentary to my daughter in this Bible. I’m going page by page. I’m trying to highlight, at least, one thing on a page. Man, Leviticus is a struggle. One thing on every page and writing a note to Ellison: “Do you see how much God loves you that He’s continuing to protect the seed of Jesus Christ in redemption?” And calling out specific things in her like, “Ellison, God loves beauty (see Genesis 2:9). You love beauty; and when you design dresses around the house, you are reflecting His beauty in the world.” So I’m trying to take all these principles that I’m writing about in these books for grownups, like 5 Mere Christians, and giving this as an heirloom to my daughter, that I plan to give to her when she’s 18. I’m going to do it for all three of my girls.

Ann:I wish I would’ve done that; what a good idea.

Jordan:Yeah; I stole it from my buddy, Sean; it’s a great idea.

Dave:One of the things that happens when you read this—at least, for me—was my faith is encouraged. And here, at Family Life, that’s what we’re about: helping you grow; be encouraged in your faith. We have a site for you to help you do that; it’s FamilyLife.com/StrongerFaith. You want to grow in your faith?—you want to get stronger in your faith?—we have resources there for you. Go to FamilyLife.com/StrongerFaith, and let us help you. We all need that help.

And I’d also say: “Pick up this book. You can send a donation to us at Family Life, and we will send you this book—a donation of any amount.”

Dave:Obviously, you—I mean, all throughout—this is why this is a good biography compared to the bad ones. I only use the word you used about how bad they are, but they’re really bad. These get really practical, and these are life-changing. So help us from Fred’s life: apply something.

Jordan:You could finish one of these biographies in about 45 minutes/50 minutes. At the end, I come in—and look you, the reader, in the eye, and say, “Okay, Reader, what does this mean for you practically today?”—I share some really, really practical things. One of those are these three practical tips for eliminating hurry from our work lives, from our personal lives, so that we can live at a pace that allows us to show radical love to those around us, like Fred Rogers did.

Number one: budget tons of margin in your calendar.

Ann:How do you do that when you feel like you have no time?

Jordan:Hard to do; you have to do less things. You just have to know that everything’s going to take 50 percent longer, which forces you to say, “No,” to a lot of things. Not easy, right? The solution is simple—it’s not easy—but budget tons of margin.

Dave:One of the easiest things we did at church, which was hard to do, is we didn’t stack meetings:—

Jordan:Yeah, there you go.

Dave:—1:00 to 2:00; don’t put a 2:00 to 3:00.

Jordan:It’s not 2:00 to 3:00.

Dave:At least, 2:30 or something; but give yourself some margin.

Jordan:That’s right.

Second: resolve to be with who you’re with. If you’re making a decision of: “I’m going to be with the Wilsons today, I’m not with anybody else; I’m writing that off.” Because, not only did Fred not hurry in his life; but when someone entered his presence—his coworkers would frequently describe how time would slow down—how they called it: “Fred-time would begin,” and urgency dissipated; because he made them feel like the image-bearers of God that they were.

We could do the same thing today by silencing distractions and resolving to be fully present with who we’re with. Man, if you really want to take this to the next level: keep your phone, when you’re home, in a separate room on “Do not disturb”; so you actually have to physically go walk and get it; if you want to be distracted from your kids.

Dave:Are you sure we will stay alive if our phone’s in another room?

Jordan:I don’t know.

Dave:I don’t know if I can make it 15 minutes.

Jordan:Let me give you one more tip for eliminating hurry, like Fred. When you fail to be unhurried, choose the important over the urgent. Fred became so much more human to me when I heard his son say that there were days when Fred was hurried, when he was rushing home after work in order to sit down with his family for dinner because he didn’t always succeed in being unhurried. But even when he didn’t, he always chose the person rather than the project. He always chose the important over the unimportant, over the temporal.

He had this kind of rule—this mantra in his life—of: “Hey, if I’m going to be hurried, I’m going to choose the important over the urgent. I’m always going to choose my family over whatever’s keeping me up at work. Because guess what? When I show up at the office tomorrow, that work’s still going to be there for me.”

Ann:These are such good principles for every single person listening. We can all relate to it, and we all need to do it.

Dave:Yeah. I want to get a bracelet that’s WWFD: “What would Fred do?” I mean, it sounds like—and you said it earlier—he really did reflect Jesus to people.

Jordan:—in a beautiful way.

Dave:So what a great conversation with Jordan Raynor. And I got to be honest with you: when I first saw this book, 5 Mere Christians and their biographies, I thought, “This is going to be boring.”

Ann:I know; you told me that.

Dave:I just did. And then, I read it; and I’m like, “Oh, my goodness; this is powerful. These lives were incredible.” And I’m telling you: you want to get this book. All you have to do is go to FamilyLifeToday.com; you can get the book there. And I’m telling you: this would be a really good read. You can just read one biography; and then, take a break; and read another one. But again, it’s FamilyLifeToday.com; get your book right there. It’s in the show notes.

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