Five Mere Christians – Jordan Raynor

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Five Mere Christians

Guest:Jordan Raynor

From the series:Five Mere Christians (Day 2 of 2)

Air date:May 6, 2025

Jordan:When he decided to pivot from his carpentry business to the toy business, everybody tried to talk him out of it—this is during World War II, it’s the start of World War II—like: “You’re crazy,” “You’re out of mind; you’re out of your mind,” “The people need food; they do not need toys.” He disagreed; he’s like, “No. Now, more than ever, people need play. They need to learn how to play well.”

I think he glorified and pointed to the character of a God who delights in just watching you make a piece of art, or build Legos with your kids, because he’s your heavenly Father. Psalm 37:23 says: “The Lord directs the steps of the godly and delights in every detail of their lives.”

Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave:And I’m Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave:Okay; do you know this name?—Fannie Lou Hamer?

Ann:I do now, but I had never heard of her before.

Dave:I’ve known her for decades.

Ann:You have not!

Dave:I wish I could say I did, but I don’t.

Jordan Raynor is with us. He’s written a book called 5 Mere Christians. Man, these are not mere Christians; these are some of the most amazing people in the world. Jordan, I had never heard this name before in my life, and you’ve said that’s somewhat common?

Jordan:I have never met a black friend who does not know Fannie Lou Hamer’s story.

Dave:Wow!

Jordan:And I have never met a white person who does.

Dave:What does that tell you?

Jordan:I think it tells us a lot! But we’re not going to have time for today. Let me tell you the basics of this woman’s story.

Dave:And by the way—just to remind our listeners; and maybe, watchers, because people watch this on YouTube—these are five Christian people in history.

Jordan:—who are not pastors, not missionaries. They changed the world without a pulpit. And they give us inspiration for the “secular work” we do today and show us how to follow Jesus more fully as we do that work. That’s why I wrote this book.

Dave:Yesterday, we talked about Fred Rogers—which a lot of people hear that name and not even think of the way you’re presenting him—like this guy changed the world; and he was a pastor, without the title, because he pastored millions of—

Ann:—kids.

Dave:—our kids.

We’re going to talk, hopefully, about the founder of Legos, which I spent hours putting a Legos race car together at Christmas. I love them! I really do; I wanted to do it. I’m pushing my grandkids away: “Let me build this thing.” And I didn’t know his story.

But today, Fannie Lou, tell us about Fannie Lou.

Jordan:Alright, let me give you the basics of this woman’s story. Fannie Lou Hamer was this poor black sharecropper in Mississippi who, in 1962, had the audacity to register to vote; well, in Mississippi, that was a big deal. And long story short, her registering to vote led to her being imprisoned and beaten by a police officer named—wait for it—Herod. After that incident, she forms what’s called the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party.

This is going to get wonky for a second, but bear with me; it’s worth it. In 1964, this new party—founded by Hamer, Dr. King, and a bunch of others—went to the Democratic National Convention, and said, “Hey, you have to unseat the delegates from the traditional Mississippi Democratic Party because of all this black voter suppression in Mississippi.”

This presents a huge problem for LBJ. LBJ is President, but hasn’t been elected in his own right. He succeeded Kennedy in ’63, so he’s campaigning desperately for the Presidency. While he’s privately sympathetic to Fannie Lou Hamer’s cause, he can’t be publicly; because if he doesn’t carry the South, he loses the White House. He knows that Hamer and team—including Dr. King—are trying to testify to the DNC about what’s going on in Mississippi. He does everything he can to stop it. We have evidence that he tapped Fannie Lou Hamer’s phone through the FBI. That didn’t work; he couldn’t figure out what was going on. He made angry phone calls from the Oval Office to stop this testimony from happening. None of it works.

The DNC agrees to hear this woman’s testimony. She’s taking the stand. He’s literally watching this on TV happen; and he freaks out, because he can’t stop this. He rushes out of the Oval Office to the White House press briefing room, and calls an impromptu press conference, because he knows she’s about to talk about the beating she had at police hands in prison. He goes to the White House press briefing room. Sure enough, the cameras switch to LBJ. He carries a press conference, where he says absolutely nothing for three minutes. And by the time they get there,—

Ann:Wait, wait; he says nothing for three minutes?

Jordan:Oh, it is just like: “America’s great.” It’s a nothing press conference. By the time the cameras go back, Fannie Lou Hamer’s testimony is done; so Johnson appears to win. What Johnson didn’t count on was that the NBC camera, inside of the testimony room, kept taping; and they aired her testimony in full on the nightly news when far more people are watching. It causes this big hoopla. This leads to a bunch of things that eventually give African-Americans the right to vote in America, and she is largely credited for that.

With that 1964 testimony, Fannie Lou Hamer, this devout follower of Jesus, fought hard against injustice. She refused to hate the unjust; she refused to retaliate. She prayed for her enemies. I think that preaches today. Yes, we are called to join Jesus in His mission of biblical justice, but we must not trade Jesus’ methods of pursuing justice. I think Fannie Lou Hamer shows us how to do this in a Christlike way.

Ann:So if Fannie Lou had an Instagram page, or a Facebook page, or a Twitter account, you think she would be graceful with her words. She’d speak the truth.

Jordan:I think she would be. There’s this great scene with Hubert Humphrey, who’s desperately trying to be LBJs Vice President. LBJ sends him in there to try to negotiate a peace after this testimony in 1964. He’s basically like, “You guys, wait till the next election cycle; wait till 1968.” Fannie Lou Hamer’s like, “Respectfully, no!” But she goes, “But I’m going to pray for you, Senator.” He was a Senator; she’s like, “I’m going to pray for you. I’m going to pray to Jesus for you right now.” And he just walks out of the room, like mic drop.

I believe she did that; she’s got journals that show her praying for these people. She prayed for her enemy as Jesus called us to do, these enemies that beat her. You can’t imagine the trials that this woman went through—and an unfaithful husband she never spoke ill against, publicly, trying to resolve that peacefully, personally—just a beautiful model of how to pursue justice, yes, while loving the unjust.

Ann:Wow.

Dave:It’s interesting—I don’t know even if I should do this—but I I’m going to do a little test for these.

Ann:He’s getting his guitar.

Dave:Yes, I’m going to do a test for Ann and a test for Jordan to see if you recognizes this little lick.

Ann:No, I won’t.

Jordan:Oh!

Ann:Blackbird.

Jordan:I want out.

Dave:[Singing] “Blackbird singing in the dead of night. Take these broken wings and learn to fly.” You know what that song’s about?

Jordan:No.

Dave:Paul McCartney—Beatles—wrote it about the flight of black people, in the South, in the U.S.A.

Jordan:Wow.

Ann:That’s what that song’s about?!

Dave:Yeah; he’s like: “Blackbird singing…” “You should be able to sing,”—I mean, nobody knew that—but he read about it; he heard about it. He’s like, “This is terrible: the injustice of this.” He wrote a simple little—became, obviously, a very famous song—and it was just to say, “You’re valuable; you’re seen; and I hope you can just fly and sing.”

Ann:Now, I need to listen to the whole thing. You didn’t know that either, Jordan?

Jordan:I had no idea; no idea.

Dave:“Blackbird singing in the dead of night.” I’m guessing Paul McCartney knows Fannie Lou Hamer.

Jordan:I bet he does.

Dave:I bet he knows her name.

Ann:I bet he does too!

Dave:Let me ask you this. She handled injustice in a beautiful, powerful; yet—I was going to say, “gentle,”—it wasn’t gentle.

Ann:But I was going to say, “She spoke the truth.”

Jordan:Yeah, I don’t know that it was gentle; but I also don’t know that Jesus’ addressing of injustices were gentle. He was gentle and lowly in heart, yes; but He wasn’t gentle with Pharisees.

Dave:No, no, no;

Jordan:He fought hard.

Dave:He had harsh words.

Jordan:He fought hard. I think that’s appropriate at times.

But man, we are also people who model Jesus’ methods, which is loving His enemies. I think about that song from CityAlight, [Jerusalem] : “Jesus let the soldiers hold and nail Him down so that He could save them.” That’s the picture of how to pursue justice and beauty in the world.

Ann:I think Fannie, too—I think her example of praying for those who hurt you—that’s biblical; Jesus continually said that. I think that’s really important, because I don’t always want to pray for those people. I get mad, and I feel justice, and I want to get them back.

Dave:Apply this to marriage—this is what we do here; we’re marriage and family—you feel you’ve been treated harshly. You feel like what’s happening in your marriage is not what you signed up for?

Ann:Yeah, but I like you.

Dave:Yeah; but there were days—there were months—there were times where you felt controlled by me. Again, I’m not just talking about our marriage. I think there’s a lot of listeners right now, who are like, “How do I pray for—how do I Fannie Lou—my own marriage? I speak the truth, and I’m not going to hide that; I have to say it. But I don’t want to destroy this man,” or “…destroy this woman. I want to save this marriage.”

Jordan:Yeah, it’s praying for them; but I think there’s another takeaway of Fannie Lou Hamer’s life that I talk about in the book. This idea that we glorify God by trusting in God to produce all results and all things; but also, hustling to make things happen. You could apply that to marriage, or work, or anything. So you’ve got a hard marriage—there’s a tension that we see in Scripture—on the one hand, Deuteronomy 8 tells us that it is God, alone, who produces any results—saving your marriage; helping your business grow; helping your kid—whatever. “Every good and perfect gift comes down from God,”—see James 1; see Deuteronomy 8, et cetera, et cetera; so we trust.

But on the other hand, we’re also told: “We don’t let go, and let God.” We hustle; we work heartily, as unto the Lord—see Colossians 3:23. So which is it?—”Are we called to trust?” “Are we called to hustle?”—I think the answer is: “Both.” Fannie Lou Hamer held that tension well. She once said, “You could pray until you faint. But if you don’t get up, and try to do something, God is not going to put it in your lap.”

Ann:That’s good; see, I like the combination of that.

Jordan:J.I. Packer once said, “It’s not let go and let God; it’s trust God and get going,” is what he said.

Dave:Yeah, that’s good.

Jordan:Whether you’re fighting for your marriage, whether you’re fighting for the life of your business, whether you’re fighting for justice in the big company that you work in:

Yes, trust in prayer, number one. And communicate your trust in the Lord for all those results, humbly.

Two: get hustling. Get working to find a single next action that you believe that, by God’s grace, you can take to bring that marriage conflict to resolution—whatever.

And then, finally, number three: rest. That’s what’s lost in this. If we have properly trusted the Lord, and done our part, and hustled as hard as we know how, we can fall asleep at night, peacefully, knowing that the results are in God’s hands.

Ann:That’s my problem. I tend to strive—and I make things happen—instead of praying, doing my work—doing all the things—and then, resting in Him. I think that’s critical.

Jordan:Rest is a sermon to the ambitious, reminding ourselves that we are not the Christ. We are not the ones that keep this world spinning. We are not the ones, ultimately, that solve all the problems in our marriages. We can sleep and trust that God’s going to work things out in the business, whatever it is. Rest is a sermon of preaching the gospel to ourselves; so that, we might trust more. And oh, by the way, so that we might also hustle more in the good works God’s prepared in advance for us to do.

Dave:Let me just say: “FamilyLife: we’re here for you.” If you’re listening to this—and are like: “Yeah, but I am so defeated right now,” or “I’m struggling so much; it’s hard to get the going part going,”—let us help you. FamilyLife.com/StrongerFaith—go there—we would love to be a partner with you to rebuild your faith, to strengthen your faith, to get you back on your feet so you can start walking forward again.

Dave:I’ll tell you what—we’ve got one more—you got five in your book. We have time to get, at least, four.

Jordan:Let’s do it.

Dave:I mean, we got two left: we got the founder of Legos; we got C.S. Lewis. Who do we go with?

Jordan:Legos is so fun!

Dave:I know.

Jordan:Let’s talk about Legos.

Dave:Really?

Jordan:Nobody knows the story.

Ann:Nobody knows this story.

Dave:What about C.S. Lewis?

Ann:I didn’t know this story.

Dave:Okay, let’s hear about Legos.

Jordan:Do whatever you want.

Dave:Talk about tragedy; talk about buildings burning up. Oh, my goodness; tell us about this guy.

Ann:Dave, you’re a Legos fan. You’re The Lego Movie fan, especially.

Jordan:Oh, come on. Are you going to play Everything Is Awesome on the guitar?

Dave:[Singing] “Everything is awesome.” I even love Lego Batman. It’s awesome!

Jordan:I love it!

Yet, so few people know the story. The founder of Lego—Ole Kirk Christiansen—was a remarkable follower of Jesus. Unfortunately—or I think he would probably tell you, “Fortunately,”—because it strengthened his faith; he was also a modern-day Job. You read this guy’s story; you’re like, “This is Job!”

He watched the Lego factory burn up in flames—not once, not twice—three times!

Dave:It’s crazy.

Ann:Unbelievable.

Jordan:This guy watched his business burn down.

Ann:And he rebuilds it.

Jordan:He rebuilds it. He spends years on the brink of bankruptcy. And in the span of just a few days, he suffered this unimaginable loss of a child and his wife. And yet, this guy consistently blessed the name of the Lord. He joined God’s servant, Job, in saying, “The Lord gives; the Lord takes it away. Blessed to be the name of the Lord.” He clung tightly to

Romans 8:28, that in all things—somehow, even the most terrible ones—God is working even those things for the good of those who love Him. I think Christians glorify God greatly by persevering through those unimaginable trials in faith. And then, by God’s grace, eventually created the most valuable toy company of all time.

But this guy—he was just a legend—he persevered through trials. He was smuggling grenades in Lego boxes, under Nazi soldiers’ noses who were staying in his house, who commandeered his house. This guy was just super playful and super joyful. I think—I don’t know—just delighted more than most Christians do in life. He’s a legend and shows us how to glorify God:

Again, by number one, persevering through trials.

By two, embracing play as a gift from God.

Dave:I mean, I’d love to talk about embracing play as a gift from God.

Jordan:Let’s do it.

Dave:I’m married to a woman that does that.

Jordan:Do you? Do you play well?

Dave:She embraces play like nobody on this planet.

Ann:I think you do more than I do.

Dave:Oh, I love to play.

Jordan:You seem like a playful guy, Dave.

Ann:Yes.

Dave:I am a playful guy; but she—with the grandkids—I am not kidding.

Ann:I have a little more intensity than Dave does; I’ve got that ambitious drive. He does, too; but you don’t see yours as much, probably. I’m more intense; you’re cool and laid back.

Dave:No, I’m just saying—watching her with the grandkids; I know I’m subjective; I know I can’t see this objectively—but I’m like, “There’s not a better grandmother in the world with their grandkids—

Ann:Yes, you are [subjective].

Dave:—in terms of fun, and joy, and play. It’s like every day with Ann is a trip to Disney World.”

Jordan:You know what the word, “Lego,” means?

Dave:I read it.

Ann:I didn’t know that, and I read it.

Jordan:It means “play well.”

Dave:I know; I did not know that.

Jordan:“Play well.”

Ann:What language is that?

Jordan:It’s in Danish. He wasn’t planning on starting a toy company. He actually had a very boring traditional carpentry business: building houses, and doors, and tables, and chairs—kind of like our Lord and Savior.

Ann:—not to speak negatively of those of you who do that work!

Jordan:Listen, that’s the most God-glorifying work if we could say that Jesus spent

80 percent of His life doing this work.

Dave:And his first toys were wood?

Jordan:His first toys were wood. But all throughout this guy’s life, he played incredibly well, personally. He was the dad in the neighborhood, who on Sunday after church, rounded up all the kids in the neighborhood; and played outside.

Dave:That’s me.

Ann:That’s you.

Jordan:That’s you?!

Dave:Yes, it’s me; yes.

Jordan:I’m not that guy; man, I love that. But I think Ole Kirk Christiansen, this really ambitious professional who built Lego, is pointing us to something really important: that God values play, and God values work—that the world calls useless and trivial—because He’s a God of beauty in play. All throughout Scripture, we see God Himself doing work that, by human standards, is useless:

Genesis 2:9: it says that “God made trees that were useful for food and beautiful.”

Job 38: God says He sends rain in the desert.

In Revelation 21, we’re told that God covers His eternal city, the new Jerusalem, with 5,600 miles of precious stones.

What purpose do beautiful trees, and desert rain, and thousands of miles of jewels serve? My guess is none, and that’s the point! Utility is not the only reason why God does things. Sometimes, He does it for the pure joy of doing it.

I think Ole Kirk Christiansen understood that better than most. It’s interesting—when he decided to pivot from this carpentry business to the toy business—everybody tried to talk him out of it. This is during World War II, it’s the start of World War II: “You’re crazy,” “You’re out of mind; you’re out of your mind,” “The people need food; they do not need toys.” He disagreed; he’s like, “No. Now, more than ever, people need play. They need to learn how to play well.”

I think by him just simply embracing work that people saw as useless, I think he glorified and pointed to the character of a God who delights—yes, in people who are prosecuting human traffickers—but He also delights in you if you’re styling hair today; He delights in the work of seeing people fix the world’s biggest problems; but He also delights in just watching you make a piece of art or build Legos with your kids; because he’s your heavenly Father. Psalm 37:23 says: “The Lord directs the steps of the godly and delights in every detail of their lives.”

If you’re listening—like “Jordan, I don’t feel like I’m changing the world through my work. I’m doing the job—and I don’t know—my family doesn’t understand why I do it; it just doesn’t feel like it has any meaning,”—remember Ole Kirk Christiansen: this guy played well; did “useless work,” and I believe greatly glorified our Lord and Savior because of it.

Ann:It’s so fascinating, too; because you think: “If for any of us”—as a listener, as a viewer—”if your house burned down; and then,—

Dave:—three times.

Ann:—“burned down again; and then, it burned down again; and then, you had a stillborn child; and then, your wife dies,”—that is incredibly hard to walk through and still point to—love Jesus and play—it’s miraculous of what he suffered and endured; and yet, still pointed toward Jesus and wanted to walk with Him.

Jordan:Yeah, I think prayer was the secret. He was a deeply prayerful man. In fact, I can’t remember after which fire it was—it’s crazy that we have to keep track of fires in somebody’s life—holds himself away in a closet; didn’t know what to do; just got down on his knees and begged the Lord for vision about: “How in the world am I going to pay off my debts?” “Where am I going to find the money to rebuild?”

Ann:And he had other kids!

Jordan:He had other kids.

Ann:—he had to raise.

Jordan:The Lord gives him this vision of this massive factory, just pumping out toys. He didn’t see the Lego brick—God didn’t give him that specific of a vision—but it was enough to where he knew it was from the Lord. He could get up and just go back to work. And literally, the next day, they started rebuilding this thing; it’s remarkable.

Ann:But of course, I think about how he remarried. He hired a woman, basically, to help him raise the boys, take care of his home life. She was ambitious; she had ideas that helped him with his company. They ended up getting married. And so I think of the blended family—like somebody’s lost a spouse, so he gets married—but the two of them together rebuilt this whole life.

Jordan:Her money; if it weren’t—her name was Sophie, his second wife—if Sophie hadn’t brought the money to that marriage that she did, Lego would not exist today.

Ann:I didn’t know that part.

Jordan:Yeah, she brought a significant sum of money—because again, he had just experienced a fire; Kirstine, his first wife, had died—she was the majority owner of Lego for many, many years. It’s a wild, wild story. Again, just an encouraging one to us, modern mere Christians, of what it looks like to be faithful to the Lord when circumstances just are not great. When we are suffering, when we are going through trials, it is possible to persevere in the faith if we get on our knees in prayer.

We didn’t touch on this, and look to the stories of these people who came before us—again, Paul said, “Follow me as I follow Christ,”—I think this is part of the reason why the Word became flesh, because I think God knew that you and I need to be told how to glorify Him through His written Word.

But I think He also knew that we needed to be shown how to glorify Him through the lived Word of Jesus Christ. We need animated people, three-dimensional models, of what it looks like to follow Jesus. And of course, we had that, first and foremost, in the Gospel biographies of our Lord and Savior. But second, we have it in Christ’s followers, which is why Paul said, “Follow me as I follow Christ.” Biographies allow us to do that with people we can more readily relate to, who lived closer in time to us, who struggle with some different things than we did.

Ann:Could you see reading this as a family?

Jordan:A hundred percent; a hundred percent. In fact, I’ve read excerpts of this book with my girls, my 10-year-old and my 8-year-old; and these stories are sticky. My daughter, Ellison, came up to me the other day; she’s like:

“Hey, you remember that time that Fred Rogers met with that boy, who had never spoken in his life, and he started speaking in full sentences, and the power of the Holy Spirit that was in him?” I’m like, “Yeah, yeah; I remember that.” “I’m glad I read you that one.”

Or “Do you remember when Ole Kirk Christiansen’s factory burned down three times, and he still worshiped the Lord?”

The kids, literally, tell me this; so I love reading this with my kids. I think families will really enjoy reading it with theirs.

Ann:Me too.

Ann:That was a great conversation with Jordan Raynor.

Dave:Always is.

Ann:It is! His book, 5 Mere Christians—it’s just inspiring to hear these stories—and Jordan is just good at what he does.

Dave:Yeah, you can get Jordan’s book—trust me: you’re going to love it—it’s in our show notes. You can go to FamilyLifeToday.com and find it there. I hope you get it; I hope you get it for some of your friends, too; it’s a life-changing read.

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