From Dreamer to Doer: Michael Card

Episode Transcript

FamilyLife Today® National Radio Version (time edited) Transcript

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From Dreamer to Doer

Guest:Michael Card

From the series:From Dreamer to Doer (Day 1 of 3)

Air date:June 3, 2024

Dave: Okay, before we get started today, I’ve got a question for you—not you, Ann; [Laughter] our listener. Where are you listening from?

Ann: And you know that we’re from Detroit.

Dave: The Motor City.

Ann: Shelby’s in the Philly area, and our FamilyLife Today headquarters are in Orlando.

Dave: So, we’re coming to you guys from all over the country, but what about you? We would love to know if you are in one of those areas or where else you consider home.

Ann: Text “FLT” plus where you’re listening from to 80542 to let us know. Again, you’re going to text “FLT” plus where you’re listening from to 80542.

Michael: One Sunday, he comes up, and he says, “You play the guitar, don’t you, Mr. Card?” I said, “Well, yes, Dr. Lane, but guitars are for attracting girls in the student center, right?” [Laughter] And he said, “Here’s my sermon for next week. Write us a chorus.” I didn’t want to be a songwriter. [I] grew up in Nashville; everybody’s a songwriter. But Dr. Lane asked me to write a song. You’d better believe I’m going to write a song.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilylifeToday.com.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!

Ann: We have a real treat for you today.

Dave: Oh, yes! Yes, we do. We got to sit down with an artist, a man, a theologian, a singer, a songwriter named Michael Card in Franklin, Tennessee. Let me give a shout-out to our Nashville listeners and station partners.

Ann: Many of you are familiar with Michael Card, but if you’re not, let’s just say that he’s a spiritual hero, and he had a real impact on us, and especially you, Dave.

Dave: Yes. I mean, if you don’t know him, you might know this song: [singing] “El Shaddai, El Shaddai.” [Do] you want me to keep going?

Ann: No.

Dave: Michael wrote that song way back. You might know it from Amy Grant, but I couldn’t be more proud to introduce him and his work to you. His songs and his books will absolutely draw you toward Jesus.

Ann: I think that’s it. I think it’s his profound love for Jesus that’s so compelling, not only in his life, but in his songs.

Dave: Yes, we got to go to his house [and] to his church, out there in Franklin. So, today is going to be Day One of a three-part series with Michael Card that I think you’re going to find fascinating. It’s a conversation about the mysterious love of God and this mysterious Old Testament word called hesed.

[Recording]

Dave: Okay, Michael, my best Michael Card story—

Michael: Uh-oh.

Dave: —for me anyway, is 1995, I think it was? What do you think?

Ann: Yes, probably that.

Michael: Were you in high school?

Dave: No, I wasn’t [in] high school. [Laughter] You know you and I were born the same year, so—

Michael: —oh, okay.

Dave: —you know exactly where I was in ‘95.

Michael: [Laughter] Okay.

Dave: But a good buddy of mine, his wife wanted to get an acoustic guitar and learn to play. So, he buys her one for Christmas and surprises her. And his surprise was—he [said], “Dave, you [have] got to come over on Christmas morning and play my acoustic guitar for Sonia and I. When I give her the guitar, I want her to hear a song that she loves—

Michael: —oh, cool.

Dave: —on this guitar.” I’m [thinking], “You want me to come and leave my family on Christmas morning”—

Michael: —yes. [Laughter]

Dave: —”and come join you and your wife with no kids?”

Michael: Yes.

Dave: And he [said], “Yes.”

Michael: Wow.

Dave: So, we meet in this park in Michigan. I don’t know why there wasn’t any snow or whatever, and I pull this guitar out and walk out, literally out of the trees, and sing: [singing] “There is a joy in the journey.”

Michael: Ah.

Dave: I sing a Michael Card song.

Michael: I don’t think I could play that on the guitar. That’s a hard one. You’re a pretty good guitar player if you can play that on a guitar.

Dave: Well, you could play it on anything. I’ve seen you.

Michael: No, it’s a piano song.

Dave: I know. I’ve watched you play it on piano but, —

Michael: —yes.

Dave: —well, I didn’t play it as good as Michael Card might play it, but I got it done.

Michael: The musical key to that song is: it’s all black notes. You know the, [singing] “Duh-le-lunt-dut-dut?”

Dave: Yes.

Michael: “Duh-le-lut-dut-dut. Duh-le-lut-dut-dut.” [Laughter] That’s Joy in the Journey.

Dave: With your knuckles?

Michael: Yes.

Dave: That’s what it is?

Michael: Yes. You could play it with your fist, probably, if you wanted to.

Dave: Well, Michael Card, welcome to FamilyLife Today! I don’t know—

Michael: —thank you.

Dave: — if you’ve been on FamilyLife Today before. Have you?

Michael: I don’t know if I have either, but I hear you on the radio in Nashville.

Dave and Ann: Yes!

Ann: I can remember, our second year of marriage, sitting in our family room all by ourselves; newly married, following Jesus, being missionaries—

Dave: —and struggling in our marriage.

Ann: —struggling, but playing the hope of the words that you wrote, and all of them pointed to Jesus. Man, it just filled us up. So, it makes me teary that we get to be here with you!

Michael: Thank you.

Dave: I did not know: how many songs? 450 songs?

Michael: Yes, but that’s in 40 years, so that’s not that many songs per year.

Ann: Here’s what most people don’t know: you’ve written a lot of books.

Michael: Yes, yes.

Ann: How many books?

Michael: 26, I think, or 27. I’m not sure.

Ann: Okay, which is easier? To write a song?

Michael: I would much rather write a book than a song. I hate writing songs.

Ann: Really?

Michael: Because a song is concentrated, and you’ve got 3-4 minutes. It’s got to rhyme; it’s got to fit the melody. [Laughter] My favorite part is researching stuff. But see, I research for my songs; in fact, that’s how I started writing books. I was talking to some lady from Thomas Nelson years ago, and I said, “Yes, I’ve got all this research for my songs but—” She said, “Why don’t you just write a book?” I [had] never thought of that.

Dave: So, how did you get into music? How did that start?

Michael: Well, I did kind of grow up around it. [Do] you know Earl Scruggs, the banjo player?

Dave: Yes.

Ann: Sure.

Michael: His son Randy got me into—I grew up—we had 50’s bands, and we had bluegrass bands. I just grew up playing. I lived in North Nashville, and all my friends were the sons of musicians. I could go over to Randy’s house and play a pre-Civil War, Martin D45. It was just sitting on the couch. [Laughter]

Dave: Really?

Michael: Which is why I play—I’m left-handed. I play right-handed.

Dave: I’ve never seen anybody do what you do.

Michael: I play right-handed guitars because—

Dave: —yes!

Michael: —of that guitar. So, yes. Am I going to play some goofy left-handed guitar when I can go play a pre-Civil War Martin D45? “No!”

Dave: Wow.

Michael: I’m glad I do that, because I have access to much better guitars.

Dave: Yes, but you played left-handed guitar, but you didn’t flip the strings.

Michael: Well—

Ann: —Dave has talked about this a lot. It’s so puzzling to him.

Michael: Well, that’s because that guitar had regulars. It was a right-handed guitar.

Dave: So, that’s why. But how did you learn that? The bass notes are at the bottom?Michael: It’s not hard. It’s not that different.

Dave: [Laughter] Whatever.

Michael: It’s not. Hendrix played that way for a while, and then he eventually switched the strings.

Dave: Yes, he flipped it.

Michael: McCartney plays left-handed. There’s a bunch of left-handed players.

Dave: Yes, but McCartney flips it like—

Michael: —does he flip the strings?

Dave: —yes, he’s got the “E” at the top.

Michael: Okay, I didn’t know that.

Dave: The low “E”. You didn’t know that?

Michael: Well, that’s cheating. [Laughter] That’s cheating. But see, the thing is, I can pick up anybody’s guitar and play it.

Dave: Yes, that’s good.

Michael: Yes, I’m so glad I did it that way.

Ann: It’s just because you’re a genius, basically.

Dave: Yes, I mean, you play so well.

Michael: Yes, it’s because I’m a genius. [Laughter] No, it’s because I’m greedy, and I could go to Randy’s house and play his D45. [Laughter]

Ann: But your dad was a doctor.

Michael: He was a musician, though. He played jazz.

Ann: Oh, I didn’t know that.

Michael: Yes, he played big band jazz, which I refer to as “Let’s forget about World War 2 music.”

Dave: Really?

Michael: I can’t stand big-band jazz. His band used to practice in our basement, and it’s the loudest thing! Thirty guys all playing horns and—

Dave: —yes.

Michael: —but, yes, my dad played trombone; big-band jazz.

Ann: What about your faith? When did that come into the picture?

Michael: I came to faith when I was like eight, and [at] about 13 or 14, the Jesus Movement hit, and I was part of that. I almost brought my high school Bible to show you guys. I read a book of the Bible [per] day for years. I found that if I could stop what I was doing by three in the afternoon, I could generally read a book of the Bible.

Ann: That started when you were—?

Michael: About 14 or 15.

Ann: Wow!

Dave: You’ve even talking like Genesis?

Michael: Oh, yes.

Dave: Fifty chapters?

Michael: Yes. If you start at three [o’clock], you can read most of the Gospels in two hours. Look at those audio Bibles, and just see how long it is to listen to them. That gives you an idea about how long it takes to read it.

Dave: Yes, yes.

Michael: But I did that for a long time, and I was a “Jesus Freak.” [Laughter] People forgot that movement happened.

Ann: We were, too. We were at the end of that.

Michael: Yes, I’m sure I probably was obnoxious and turned some people off, because that’s all I was interested in; the Jesus Movement

Ann: What did your family think of that?

Michael: Both of my grandfathers are preachers.

Ann: Oh!

Michael: My mom’s dad was President of the Southern Baptist Convention, so very Baptist. Fred Brown was his name. And my other grandfather edited the Baptist hymnal, the Old Green Baptist hymnal. [Laughter]

Dave: Really?

Michael: So, we were Southern Baptist, boy, through and through. My parents—I think they were concerned that I was going a little bit, kind of off. But I think all of my other friends were doing drugs, and so, I think they were glad that Jesus was kind of my drug. People have forgotten that time happened, but my mentor believed that, in response to the drug culture, which opened kind of a demonic—

Ann: —yes.

Michael: —door into the culture, He felt like God poured His Spirit out in response to that.

Ann: Would you call it a revival back then?

Michael: Oh, it was. Absolutely, that’s what it was!

Ann: I think so, too.

Michael: Yes.

Ann: Did you do anything like this—? I guess, you wouldn’t because you’ve got preachers, and you’ve got believers in your household. I didn’t grow up in it, so when I walked in the door after receiving Jesus, I walked in [saying], “Everybody’s going to hell unless they receive Jesus.”

Michael: No, I didn’t do that. [Laughter] I didn’t do that.

Ann: That’s probably wise. It wasn’t wise.

Michael: But when I did tell my mother, about 14 or 15 [years old], I was basically going to be a Bible teacher (I wanted to go to school and get a degree in teaching at school someplace), my mom cried, and they weren’t happy tears, because she remembered her father and how hard it was for him, being a pastor. I didn’t want to be a pastor. That’s not what—I was never interested in that, but I wanted to be a really serious Bible teacher.

Ann: And you are!

Michael: Well, I don’t know about that, but I was discipled by one of the greatest Bible teachers who ever lived, so give him the credit if anything I’m sharing is helpful. It came from Bill Lane. But my mom cried, and it wasn’t happy, and my dad was fairly ambivalent about it. He was a doctor and kind of busy and—yes.

[Music playing, El Shaddai]

[Studio]

Ann: We’ve been listening to the first part of a great conversation we had with singer, songwriter, and author Michael Card, when we actually visited him in Franklin, Tennessee.

Dave: Yes, and I know you’re already getting a feel for why so many people have been impacted by Michael. I’ll tell you what! A man like Michael Card doesn’t just happen. He’s a great example (isn’t this true?) of someone who’s learned to love Jesus through a process of discipleship—

Ann: —right.

Dave: —which is what God’s plan is. You know, people have poured into him. God took this—he calls himself a “Jesus Freak” [Laughter]—from being a baby in Christ to maturity by giving him a spiritual mentor at just—

Ann: —yes.

Dave: —the right time.

Ann: So, here’s more of our conversation with Michael Card.

[Music, El Shaddai continues]

Dave: I can tell by talking to you, you love theology [and] the Word.

Michael: Well, my mentor was William Lane, okay? He wrote The New International Commentary to Mark, which John Stott says is the finest commentary in the English language, period. John Stott said that.

Dave: Yes.

Michael: And Bill wrote a two-volume commentary on the book of Hebrews, which made all kinds of major discoveries. He figured out how to translate words that no one else had figured out how to translate. He was this genius! Harvard PhD; spoke 16 languages—

Ann: —what?

Michael: —had a photographic memory, and they—

Dave: —how did he become your mentor?

Michael: Well, I went to Western Kentucky University. I was majoring in Forestry, because I’d given up on that dream of being a Bible teacher, and I was going to be a—I wanted a job that didn’t involve people, so I wanted to do bird counts for the forestry service. That was my big plan, [Laughter] and it’s kind of disillusioned.

Bill had just come to Western. I’m still a Jesus Freak, and I have to take a religion class, so, I take one of these classes. And if you’re a Jesus Freak in a university, the guy that teaches Bible is the enemy.

Ann: Yes.

Michael: Right? So, Bill—I heard that he was a good teacher, so I took this Life of Paul class or something. He walks in the first day, sits on the corner of the desk, and he says, “My name is William Lane, and all you need to know about me is I’m a man under the authority of God’s Word.” This is a secular university—

Ann: —wow!

Michael: —Western Kentucky University. My mouth fell open, and I thought, “I’m going to take every class he teaches.” And I did. I was with him for six years. I was holding his hand when he died. He moved here to die. He moved to Franklin to die. He was in Seattle, WA at Seattle Pacific University. He calls me—ahe had Multiple Myeloma. He called me and he said, “Can I come to Franklin and show you how Christian man dies?”

Ann: Come on!

Michael: So, he moved here. He lived 18 months. [He] had a huge impact, especially in the black community, because he was a reconciler, on top of everything else. When I first went to his church, he was giving leadership to a black church: Cecilia in Bowling Green.

So, he really is the person who took my life—took the pieces of the puzzle and kind of put it together. One Sunday, he comes up and he says, “You play the guitar, don’t you, Mr. Card?” I said, “Well, yes, Dr La.ne, but guitars are for attracting girls in the student center, right?” [Laughter] He said, “Here’s my sermon for next week. Write us a chorus.”

I didn’t want to be a songwriter. Songwriters are losers. [If] you grow up in Nashville, everybody’s a songwriter. But Dr. Lane asked me to write a song. You’d better believe I’m going to write a song. So, for six years, I was there at Western, going to his church on Sunday and studying with him during the week. Basically, most of the songs I can point back to—that’s some idea of Bill Lane’s.

Dave: Really?

Ann: Do you remember the first song?

Michael: Yes; the first song was Stranger on the Shore; John 21, the second miraculous catch of fish. He had preached that sermon. And here’s the thing; for all those years, he did all the work. I had this great sermon with three points. Well, those are my—two of those are verses, and one is going to be the chorus. He was—on top of being brilliant in terms of his scholarship, he was—very creative in terms of his preaching and very quirky.

Ann: Let me ask you this, going back to this mentoring: I think when listeners hear that (when young people hear that, old people hear that), there’s a longing in our hearts. All of us long for that person—

Michael: —yes.

Ann: He shaped your life!

Michael: Yes.

Ann: Who would you be without him?

Michael: Yes.

Ann: So, what would you say to that listener that’s longing for that, and they don’t have it?

Michael: Well, we never—in the first place, we never used the word “mentoring.”

Ann: We didn’t.

Michael: No. I didn’t say, “Dr. Lane, will you mentor me?” We just spent time together. I was asking him—I was doing a paper and went to his office and asked him—a question about the Pharisees. He said, “Well, let’s take a walk on Tuesday” (I think it was a Tuesday or Wednesday). “Let’s take a walk, and we’ll talk about Pharisaism.”

So, I get to hear this guy talk about Pharisees. It’s incredible! What I didn’t realize was, he meant every Tuesday, every week.

Ann: Oh.

Michael: I didn’t know that, and so we did. In fact, I wrote a book called The Walk.

Ann: Based on this?

Michael: Based on that, yes, because that’s when things—I mean, really, Bill Lane is the guy, I said, who took all these pieces of my life, and put it all together, and, you know, talked Susan into marrying me, and then married us. He performed the service. And, as I said, I was holding his hand when he died.

Ann: Did he die well as he told you?

Michael: He died very well. Yes, I saw how a Christian man dies.

Dave: Yes. How was that? He said he was going to show you that.

Michael: Yes, he died well. He had three funerals. It took three funerals to bury him. There was the black community; those pastors had a funeral. And then, we had a funeral in our church where he was going, Christ Presbyterian. Then, we all had one big, together funeral. I think at that one, there were six or seven pastors on the podium, black and white, which Bill would have loved. [Laughter]

Oh, and he wanted to be buried in the black cemetery in Franklin, and they wouldn’t let him. They wouldn’t sell him a plot. So, I can show you his grave. It’s right here in Franklin, right across from Kroger. But he’s buried right next to the Black Cemetery, and that was his dream as a reconciler—

Ann: —wow.

Michael: —you know? “I want my grave to be in the Black Cemetery.” We couldn’t make that happen, but he was amazing! He was an amazing person.

Dave: Now, where did that passion from him, and you have it too, to reconcile [come from]?

Michael: Yes.

Dave: You write about it when you talk about hesed. Am I saying it the right way?

Michael: “Hess-ed”

Dave: Hesed.

Michael: Yes.

Dave: We can jump into that a little bit—

Michael: —sure.

Dave: —as you talk about that word. I’m even wondering if William Lane translated that word?Michael: I would have given anything to have a discussion with him about hesed.

Dave: Yes.

Michael: No, we didn’t talk about that. Most of our linguistic discussions were Greek anyway, but he could read Hebrew; he could read Aramaic; he could read Egyptian hieroglyphics. He taught himself French in two months. [Laughter] He spoke French fluently.

I remember, one time, I was writing a paper, and he pulls a book in French off the shelf. “You do handle French, don’t you, Mr. Card?” [Michael, laughing], “No, Dr. Lane, I barely—I struggle with English, so no, I don’t read French.” That’s kind of the quirky genius that he was. But no, we didn’t get to talk about hesed. I wish we [had].

[Studio]

Dave: We’ve been listening to one of my musical heroes, Michael Card, talk about spiritual mentors in his life, and I’ve just got to say, “Bill Crimmins, who mentored me in my first years in college as a new believer, if you’re out there, if you’re listening: Thank you. You literally changed my life.” Michael had those kind of people in his life as well. They’re just so important.

Tomorrow, we get to hear him talk about hesed love. You’re not going to want to miss tomorrow.

Shelby: Okay, we’ve got a special treat for you coming up. Michael Card recorded a song for the FamilyLife Today audience while we were with him in Nashville, and we’ll get to hear that in just a few minutes.

But first, Dave was talking about his mentor, and Michael, his influences, and no doubt, you can probably think of someone who helped you in your early years of walking with God. So, why not take a moment today, maybe even right now, to reach out and say “thank you” for their devotion to you when you were first learning the ropes as a new believer? I know it’ll bring life to them and probably a smile to your face today. It doesn’t take too long, and what a way to breathe life into someone else because they breathed in so much life to you.

I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Michael Card on FamilyLife Today.

Michael’s written a book called Inexpressible: Hesed and the Mystery of God’s Loving Kindness. It really helps you to dig deeper into understanding how God really embodied compassion, mercy, and faithfulness in His own life toward us through the person of Jesus Christ.

You can get your copy right now by going online to FamilyLifeToday.com, or you can find it in the show notes. Or give us a call at 800-358-6329 to grab your copy; again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY”.

Hesed love, which is what we brought up today and [what] Michael’s going to talk about a little bit more tomorrow, is a covenantal love; an unwavering, steadfast kind of love. And that’s just one piece of the love puzzle that God has for us. We really try to explore that in FamilyLife’s all-new, latest marriage study, The Art of Marriage.

Session One in Art of Marriage is all about unpacking this incredible love and discovering how we can mirror Christ’s unconditional love for our spouse even when it seems impossible to do so. Whether you’re seeking really fresh small group material (which I’m a small group leader in my church, and I’m always looking for that kind of stuff), or you’re making decisions for your own church’s next event, or you’re an avid enthusiast of transformative resources, Art of Marriage is designed to inspire and transform marriages.

You could preview Session One at ArtofMarriage.com, or you can find more details in the show notes. Trust me. It’s worth the journey. Again, you can find a link to that in the show notes.

Okay, let’s hear that special song that Michael Card recorded just for the FamilyLife Today audience:

[Piano playing]

Michael: [Singing]

If you are wounded, and if you’re alone,

If you are angry, if your heart is cold as stone,

If you have fallen, and if you are weak,

then come find the worth of God

that only the suffering seek.

Come, lift up your sorrows, and offer your pain,

and come make a sacrifice of all your shame.

There in your wilderness, He’s waiting for you

to worship Him with your wounds, for He’s wounded, too.

And He has not stuttered, and He has not lied.

When He said, “Come unto Me. You’re not disqualified.”

If you’re heavy-laden, you may want to depart,

but those who know sorrow: they’re closest to His heart.

So, lift up your sorrows, and offer your pain,

and come make a sacrifice of all your shame.

There in your wilderness, He’s waiting for you

to worship Him with your wounds for He’s wounded, too.

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