Reclaiming Manhood – Brant Hansen

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Reclaiming Manhood

Guest:Brant Hansen

From the series:The Young Men We Need (Day 1 of 3)

Air date:March 3, 2025

Brant:“What is masculinity supposed to be?” “What’s the construction?” Deconstructing things is a lot easier than constructing things. Again, it can be a great point: “You shouldn’t do this,” “You shouldn’t do that,” “Masculinity shouldn’t be that,”—it shouldn’t be—“Okay; but what is it?”

Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave:And I’m Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Ann:Okay, I don’t think it’s any secret that you’re like my favorite pastor of all time.

Dave:I hope so! I thought you were going to say your “favorite man,” but your “pastor.”

Ann:Well, you are, of course. But I’m saying it’s one thing to say you’re my favorite man; but to say you’re my favorite pastor—think about this—over the decades and years of people we’ve heard, and listened to, and sat under.

Dave:And you have high standards; I’ll say that.

Ann:But my favorite time of year came, when you spoke, was at Father’s Day every year when you’d speak to the men. I don’t know if men liked it; but all I know is all of us women were like, “This is so good!”; because you’re talking about God’s love; God’s call for manhood. I especially wanted all of our boys with us because you painted the picture of what God has for them so beautifully. I think we were all sitting on the edge of our seats, wanting to know: “What does this look like for men?” “What does this look like for our sons?”

Dave:I think I’m going to cry; I didn’t know you’re going to start there.

Ann:It’s true! You’re so good at that.

Dave:Well, I’m excited because Brant Hansen is back in the studio.

Ann:Yay!

Brant:I don’t know how many times you’ve been here; but every time, we love/absolutely love having you here.

Brant:It’s so fun; you guys are fun. I even like hearing you guys just talk to each other. That really is a high compliment.

Dave:Okay; just sit over there; we’re going to talk for the rest of the program.

Brant:You don’t know—people, like you, in public, facing Christian stuff; whatever it is—and for the wife to genuinely say, “You’re my favorite pastor,”—after knowing you thoroughly; that’s really cool. I like hearing that.

Ann:And I wouldn’t make it up.

Brant:I know you wouldn’t.

Ann:I really do feel like—

Brant:No, that’s not who you are.

Dave:I like hearing it too. You can say it every program. Could you start every program just like that?

Ann:But I think, too, that Brant carries the same passion for men and boys—in our culture, in our country, in our society, in our world—of a biblical mandate/a call for men. And when Brant speaks on it, I remember you coming in from the Love Like You Mean It marriage cruise, saying, “This guy just nails this topic; it’s so good!”

Dave:Well, we’re going to talk about your most recent, you wrote The Men We Need; now, (Young) Men We Need. We’re waiting for our book—The Old Men We Need—but I’m sure it’s coming! But your spin is so fresh; I haven’t heard it—

Ann:What do you mean by spin?

Dave:—in decades. Well, they’re your perspective—we’re going to talk about it—it’s fresh. In fact,—and I’m not just saying this—it’s the only book I recommend to people now on manhood, and I know them all.

Brant:Thank you; thank you.

Dave:And I’m hoping to write one;—

Ann:And there’s some great ones out.

Dave:—I still think I’d recommend yours, because it’s so fresh: it taps into history in the Bible. But the next generation, I think, resonates with what you’re saying about manhood.

Brant:Thanks.

Dave:And it’s such an important conversation right now.

Brant:I feel like it’s so important because, even, guys in the church have no clue. We keep saying—and I appreciate the intent behind this—but we keep saying: “We need men to man up,” “We need guys to be men,” “We need men to be…” It’s like, “Okay, but what does that mean?” If you’re 17, 15, or 50—and no one has ever told you what is genuinely, uniquely awesome about masculinity; it’s life-giving to people around you—if you don’t have a vision for it, you have no idea what people are talking about.

What happens is you get confused with all the tropes about masculinity, where it’s like: “Okay, we need men to be men. Does that mean I have to be an Army Ranger?” “Does it mean I have to hunt?” “Does it mean we have to go camping?” “What are you talking about?”

Dave:Well, it’s interesting—tell me if you agree with this—at my church in Michigan, that I helped start 30 years ago, we started a men’s retreat. Guess what we called it?—“Man Up.”

Brant:Of course, as you should.

Dave:This was the ‘90s; early 2000s. And it was like, “Yeah, we’re going to go away.” We did—we had hunting and all the—we had flag football; all the stuff. We talked about manhood all weekend; it was great stuff.

But when my youngest son—who’s 33 now; Cody is 33?—was probably just getting out of college—and he says to me as, we’re driving to this retreat; he goes, “Dad, ‘Man Up’ is the wrong title for this thing.” I go, “What are you talking about?!” I was like, “Are you ripping what we created?” He goes, “You really want men to do the opposite of that.” I go, “Explain that.” He goes, “We don’t want men who man up; that means: ‘Stuff your feelings away,’ ‘Be macho,’ ‘Be tough,’ ‘Don’t be authentic,’—that’s a bad title.” Guess what? He was right; do you agree?

Brant:You can take it anyway; all sorts of people can take it all sorts of way. You’re not giving content to the idea of what it is to be masculine.

What I’m trying to do is actually give the vision. If you don’t have a vision for it, you settle for something dumb or evil. We see that even among Christian guys. I saw Nancy Pearcey tweeted about this recently about a conversation with somebody who teaches in a Christian school. He was saying all the guys in his school are into Andrew Tate, who’s this toxic—truly toxic—influencer who’s had 14 billion video views.

Dave:Wow!

Brant:I mean, he’s influencing. He’s got all these women; he’s got all these children by all these women. He’s got these cars. He’s jacked; he’s a former UFC guy or whatever. It’s like, “Oh, that’s masculinity, huh?” Well, it’s not; it’s not. But if you can’t articulate what it is, they’re going to go for anything.

That’s what I see as a crisis—and that’s what I try to do with this book—is to go: “Look, this may not be the perfect thing; but I think I’m onto something.” I’m trying to tell guys: “We should be keepers of the garden, because that’s the job that Adam was given.”

And the wild thing about this is it doesn’t take long for guys to get it—you’re talking about cultivating other people’s lives, protecting them, allowing the people in your sphere of influence to bloom and thrive—but that’s your role. And when you do that—when you provide security and not insecurity—people recognize that as masculine. You don’t need to be jacked to do that; you don’t need a big truck; you don’t need to be good at ax throwing; you don’t need to be an Army Ranger. All that stuff’s great—

Ann:—if that’s you.

Brant:Yeah, that’s fine; fine. But that’s not masculinity. You can be great at all that stuff and be a threat to good people, including maybe your wife.

So when you understand that: “This is the vision…”; and we can talk about what that looks like. The fact that you’re supposed to be a purveyor of security, or provider of that: you’re someone who allows the vulnerable around you to thrive; people are more secure because you’re around.

Once you have that vision, it’s life-giving to everybody around you. People find it very attractive—which is also interesting—women will find that attractive. Other guys will find that incredibly respectable; there’s something deeply true about that. And you don’t have to be all that stuff; you can be like me—I play the flute—that’s not in most of the man’s books. They don’t have a guy playing the flute on the cover; it’s usually somebody climbing up rocks and stuff.

Dave:You’re a flautist.

Brant:Yeah, I’m a flautist. But there are a lot of artsy guys, right?

Ann:Totally.

Brant:Or guys who are accountants or professors of archeology. Not everybody’s going to be—you’re an athlete, which is awesome—but not everybody’s that. So if you’re going to equate all of this stuff with being a man, it’s incredibly discouraging to most guys!—

Dave:Yeah, it is.

Brant:—who don’t have a six pack and aren’t on the cover of Men’s Health and don’t—it’s unfortunate, because the church has kind of bought into a lot of the tropes of the larger culture—when we could teach this kind of masculinity. It would help people thrive; families would thrive; and young guys would thrive, finally have a vision for who they’re supposed to be.

Dave:Yeah; when you hear that, Ann, what do you think? I mean, you’re the only woman sitting here.

Ann:I was just going to say, “See, that’s why women love Father’s Day. A real definition of masculinity is described from the Bible.”

Brant:Yes.

Ann:It makes women sit on the edge of their seat.

Honestly, as you were talking, Brant, it made me teary in terms of: “Yes! That’s what we, as women, long for. We’re not looking for the guy who’s so cool, and he’s doing all these things. We’re looking for the faithful man, who will be beside us; protect us; care for the vulnerable. And we long for that for our sons too. But I’m just going to say, in our culture—now, that we have four grandsons—I’m looking for models of that.

Brant:Yeah, exactly.

Ann:And I don’t see it around very many places.

Brant:No; I want to scream it from the rooftops, honestly, because of that. And guys are so desperate for this—they just need somebody to tell them—just need somebody to tell them. I talk about when our son was nine, and I told him—and it never dawned on him; and frankly, it hadn’t really dawned on me until it came out of my mouth—he was picking on his little sister. I had to go back there and break it up. I told Justice, our son, at the time, “Justice, you’re supposed to protect your little sister. I’m having to protect her from you. You’ve betrayed your role.” I don’t remember having that problem again with him; I honestly don’t. Maybe we did, but I don’t remember it.

I think little guys get it when you tell them; because it’s so deeply true that: “We’re made for this. You’re given strength, and you’re given intelligence, and you’re given whatever talent you have to be this role,”—and not a domineering, overbearing masculinity—it’s the opposite. But you’re using your strength and what you have to let people bloom, like little species that can’t thrive in the wilderness, in a garden that’s tended by somebody who’s caring and strong. That species gets to bloom; it gets to become beautiful because you’re there.

It’s not only women who resonate with that. You tell guys this; they’re like: “Yes, that’s it.”

Dave:“That’s what I’m called to be.”

Brant:Yeah! “And I can use whatever I have.”

Dave:We were walking out of a high school football game Friday night this past week.

Ann:I just happened to take a video of this.

Dave:I’ve got it. I wanted to show Brant this video. I was walking out in front; and we had our two grandkids, a five-year-old and three-year-old—

Ann:The oldest is a boy.

Dave:—boy and girl. Ann shoots this video from behind him. Watch Bryce protect his little sister. It’s so—

Brant:—nice.

Dave:I didn’t even see it, because I was in front of them. But here they are. [Video playing] There they are, walking out.

Brant:Oh, sweet!

Ann:Look how his hand is on her back.

Brant:—in a crowd.

Ann:Somebody was going to run into her, so he gets her out of—

Brant:—ushering her around. That’s pretty awesome.

Ann:His hand is on her back the whole time; and then, he just can’t help but just touch her hair.

Dave:Anytime somebody gets near, he just sort of pulls her away.

Brant:That’s really impressive.

Dave:Wow! That’s what we’re called to do: keeper of the garden.

Brant:They get it; they understand it.

Dave:Yeah.

Ann:Our son had the same talk: “Your job/your role is to protect.”

Brant:And he understands it at five. That’s why—can you send me that video?—that’s really interesting; because again, it’s just a matter of articulating this within your family. Maybe you’re a single mom, or maybe you’re a dad, but you’ve got a son. Tell him: “This is his role.” Tell him—because if you don’t hear it; articulate it—are you just supposed to pick it up from the atmosphere in the culture? No.

Dave:—not going to get it there.

Brant:You’re not going to get it there, and you’re not going to get it from just going, “Yeah, you need to man up.” “What are you talking about?” So tell them: “This is their role.”

This is why I wrote the book; and if there’s a similar book, it doesn’t matter if there’s one like that. I would like to drop them from airplanes, scatter them all over—Christian schools, and churches, and whatnot—guys resonate with this. They read it; and they’re like, “Oh, I get it.” And then it winds up being a blessing to their future wives, or their families, or even their neighborhoods; because they now understand: “I’m here to provide security, and to let people thrive, and defend the innocent.”

Dave:Now, talk about—you already used the term, “keeper of the garden,”—we know what it means; you’ve talked about it with The Men We Need. Is it different or is it a different nuance with the (Young) Men We Need? Why a follow-up?

Brant:The follow-up: I just made it shorter, honestly.

Dave:Really?

Brant:Yep; I know young guys. That’s not your number-one reader demographic. And I try to inject it with humor and stuff too—it’s quick—but it makes the point. I also, when I wrote this book, I remember reading Christian books or books that were for teens or something when I was a kid, and feeling like my intelligence was a little insulted. I was like, “I’m not going to do that”; so I didn’t make it dumb.

Ann:So you’re going to speak to them as men?

Brant:Absolutely; if they learn a few new words, great. But I’m speaking to them to call that out of them. It is angled towards them understanding that a lot of what we’re talking about is, at this age, but they do understand it—that’s just it—because it’s deeply true.

When I talk about this model of masculinity in groups—it can be adults who are at a secular corporation—they have some Christian leadership, so they’ll have me come in. I’m watching the women who, again, they didn’t sign up for Christianity or anything necessarily; but they’re like: “What’s going on? What are you talking about?”

I’m wondering what they’re thinking when I’m talking about this. I get done: they come up; and they’re like, “How do I tell my boyfriend what you just said?” There’s something deeply true about this role that Adam was given that people pick up on it. I’m wondering if they’re like, “Man, this is sexist”; it’s not sexist. And they can tell: “This would be life-giving,” and “It’d be good news for me and everybody around me if he understood that this is who I want him to be; and he could be this.”

Ann:Paint a picture for us, guys—I’m asking the two of you—for young men today; what you think: “Do they have any idea?” “What do you think culture is telling them?” You’ve already said it’s this macho man; but even for the younger men: “What’s going on in them today?” and “Why is there no example?”

Brant:I will defer my time today.

Dave:—to the old man in the room.

Brant:No, no, no. I don’t think culture’s telling them anything constructive,—

Ann:Nothing.

Brant:—only deconstructive, including church stuff.

Ann:What do you mean by that?

Brant:Well, we’ve got books about masculinity that are popular: Jesus and John Wayne and whatnot, within Christian circles. And it’s like, “Man, you make some great points; but what is masculinity supposed to be? What’s the construction?”

Deconstructing things is a lot easier than constructing things. Again, it can be a great point: “You shouldn’t do this,” “You shouldn’t do that,” “Masculinity shouldn’t be that,”—it shouldn’t be—“Okay; well, what is it?” If you don’t have a vision for it, what are we supposed to be doing?

Guys grow up without being able to articulate it. I’m quite sure I could go to a Christian high school, ask guys individually: “What is masculinity?” and not get a good answer.

Ann:Yeah; what do you think they’d say?

Dave:They’d say the things Brant said earlier: jacked, good-looking, money, women.

Brant:—cool truck; yeah.

Ann:As a woman, hearing that is the saddest thing ever! Because I think women feel like: “I have to bear the load. I have to take care of everything and everyone.”

Brant:That’s interesting too; because when we talk about toxic masculinity—and I talked about this in both versions of the book—but there’s toxic in the overbearing, domineering sense; we know that. But there’s a toxic passivity too, and it’s—

Dave:Talk about that; that’s rampant.

Brant:Well, it’s what Adam was guilty of—Adam wasn’t overbearing—but he just laid there, didn’t do anything. While Eve is being tempted, he’s right there; and he does nothing, and everything falls apart as a result. I say it’s toxic because—both of those examples—bring insecurity into the home or into a relationship because your wife will feel that way if you’re married: “It’s all on me. I guess he’s not going to rise to the occasion. He’s not going to; he’s off on his own thing. He’s not plugged in, and he’s so passive.”

Both of them bring insecurity into the garden, so that’s why they’re both toxic. I do think the idea of constructing something, though—a vision like this—for young guys is so important for that very reason. Because within—we’re talking about Christian schools, churches—there’s not really a good articulation of it. And then outside, we know our culture’s completely confused and would utterly resist any sort of idea that masculinity is beautiful in any specific wonderful way.

I love that we get to articulate this now. Again, I just want to bombard young guys with this; because they love it; they actually like it.

Ann:I don’t know about you, but I need parenting help—not just sometimes, but most of the time—so maybe you feel like that too. We have resources to help you, as a parent. You can go to FamilyLife.com/ParentingHelp, and you’re going to find resources that will really help you, not just once in a while, but as much as you want. That’s the benefit. Again, you can go to FamilyLife.com/ParentingHelp.

Dave:I know that, in 33 seasons with the Detroit Lions, as their chaplain—because we lost a lot—went through 12 coaches/head coaches. And I’m not exaggerating; every head coach ended up coming to chapel, where I would speak on the Bible on Saturday nights before our game. Every year I would give a message on biblical manhood: “What’s a man?” Every head coach, after they heard that message, would say to me: “Every season, you have to give that same message.”

Brant:Isn’t that something?

Dave:He goes, “These young men don’t know what a man is. That vision they don’t have. You got to give that every year.” It was the only message I ever gave, they said, “You got to do again.”

Brant:Isn’t that something?

Dave:And I was like—they knew that they don’t—and they also knew this: “If these guys in this locker room understand what a real man is—what God calls them to be—not only will we win football games, because it will translate into better things happening in their job; they’ll go home, and be better men in the community, in the church, in their homes and dads.” You know this—but even non-Christ-following coaches are like: “I don’t know where you get all that stuff, but that’s what a man is,”—it’s actually out of the book written by—

Ann:—God.

Dave:—the Man who is the best Man, Jesus. They didn’t even know that; they just resonated—their soul resonated—“That’s the vision.”

Brant:Think for young guys too—the stuff that they struggle with—if you don’t have a vision in life for what you’re supposed to be, you’ll fall for anything: “Why not?” “ What’s the thing?” So with anything in life—all of this: all of the foolish dumb things that we can get addicted to or be involved in—it’s like, “Yeah, you can only give that up if there’s something bigger that you’re embracing.”

Ann:—bigger vision.

Brant:Yeah. You can’t just go, “Nah, I’m done with that, and I don’t have a bigger vision.” You always give it up because you love something more. To have a vision—that guys are like, “Wait, that is who I want to be. I know who I want to be,”—now, this other stuff doesn’t make sense. It starts to fall apart, like sitting and playing video games 16 hours a day. Again, nothing wrong with video games per se; but it’s like there is something wrong with that, because we needed you. God gave you skills and abilities—maybe they’re physical stuff, maybe it’s intellect, maybe it’s verbal—whatever you’ve got. We needed those skills and ability; we needed you to show up.

Dave:I love your chapter title where you talk about video games in (Young) Men We Need.

Brant:Yeah; I said, “Video Games Are Too Awesome.” And I mean it.

Dave:—meaning?

Brant:They’re actually too awesome.

Dave:Yeah, they can take over.

Brant:Yeah, there’s so much fun. See, the problem is it pays off so fast. You don’t level up constantly in life—you get a job at the grocery store: they don’t level you up every five minutes—so you don’t get the dopamine hits. You do from this other stuff—from this fake stuff—real life has a hard time competing with that.

But once we get this vision of: “Here’s what society needs…” “Here’s what my neighbors need…” “…what women and children need…”—“They need me in this role. People should be safer, because I’m there,”—even if they don’t know it—even if they don’t know they’re safer—because I’m there.

“Young guys—football players—but young guys who are in their athletic prime: 19, 20, 21 years old; and you’ve got testosterone like crazy—that makes you want to take risks and do things. That’s to provide security; I mean, you’re made to do that.” It’s not to be a threat. Ideally—if we would tell guys that: “This is actually what your strength is for,” and give them a vision for life—we would see groups of guys, who are 20 years old/19, walking down the street; and we wouldn’t hide the others. We’d be like, “Aw, good. I’m glad we got some young guys here.”

Ann:Yeah; “The protectors are here.”

Brant:Yeah! The strong ones.

Dave:They’re not just going to take stupid risks.

Brant:No, but they’re willing to take risks—

Ann:They’ll take the risk.

Brant:—for the right reasons.

Dave:They’re not stupid. You talk about that; it’s like, “At some point, your girl just thinks you’re being dumb.”

Brant:I do have a chapter about taking risks can be good if it’s in the service of protecting the vulnerable. But if it’s not, it’s just like, “Hey, I’m going to jump this canyon with this awesome BMX bike.” She might, at 24 go, “Why? You’re a father; I’m not attracted to that anymore.”

What they’re thinking—I’m telling young guys this—“When you’re young in high school, they’ll look at somebody who does that kind of stuff,”—or they’re in middle school: “Look at him jump on his bike<”—they’re thinking, “Hey, he’s brave. Down the line, he would be really good to protect the family.” But if you’re doing it at 30, and you’re still taking those risks for no reason, then it’s not attractive anymore at all—it’s the opposite—because now, it brings insecurity.

Ann:So true.

Brant:So you’re hoping that that football player—like you looked at him in high school: “He’s strong; he’s a leader. That’d be great,”—but if you marry him, and he turns out that he just flirts with other women; and he’s all about his own body—well, now, you resent it; because he’s not bringing security. You were hoping that; but now, he’s not.

I do think, though—once you give guys a vision of this—they can actually self-correct too; and with the Lord in their life, say: “This is who God actually wants me to be, and it’s what my wife’s hoping me to be. Wait a second; I can do this.”

Dave:I mean, we’re almost out of time for the first day. I would love to know, as a woman—because wives are listening right now—and some of them are thinking, “How do I help my man capture that vision of being keeper of the garden?” They’re going to say: “Here’s a podcast you should listen to,” “Here’s two books you should read”; and they’re going to put them by the toilet, and say, “Please read these.” That doesn’t work. I know you’ve experienced a toxic passivity, sometimes, in my life. How do you speak into a man’s life? And Brant, “Can she?”

Brant:Yeah; here’s what I suggest, honestly.

Ann:Yeah, go ahead.

Brant:I’ve had this question from a lot of women. I think there’s probably something in this book that will remind you of your husband, something. It’s just a little bit of—something he’s ever said; something he’s ever done—and you could say, “You know what? This kind of reminds me of you. I think you’re going to like this.”

Dave:That’s a good way to do it.

Ann:That’s great!

Dave:That’s positive; that’s encouraging.

Brant:It’s not correcting; it’s not: “Boy, you’re failing.”

Ann:I would even go a little bit further, if possible, if they can see it. If you’ve heard this, and you think, “My husband has a piece of that,”—maybe it’s tiny; maybe it’s a pea size—but if you say to him, which I’ve said this to our sons as well—“Man, I see: I don’t even think you understand that you have this leadership gift that, when you talk, people listen to you. There’s a power in that.” If you, as a wife, found something that was said today—you can just say, “I listened to this today. It reminded me”—just like you’re saying, Brant—“It reminded me of something you’re good at. I could see you really liking this.”

Brant:Yeah, that way you’re building them up; and this is very powerful. We can talk more about this later; but when a wife says, “Boy, it’s attractive when you do that,”—and it could be the smallest thing that you’re willing to act; you’re willing to do something—that, as a man, it’s like, “Whoa! Is it?”

Dave:You might have just created a monster.

Brant:He might just do some more.

Dave:He’s going to keep doing it.

Ann:It’s funny;—

Brant:Honestly.

Ann:—I sat down with that five-year-old grandson, and I showed him the video; and Dave did too. We said, “Bryce, look at you protecting your sister.”

Brant:That’s genius; that’s genius.

Ann:And he said, “I didn’t even know I was doing that.”

Brant:That’s brilliant.

Ann:And we said, “It’s because it’s a part of who you are. Your mom and dad have been telling you: ‘You are the protector of your sister,’—and you can’t always be perfect—but when you’re with her, you’re having an eye on everybody around to make sure she’s safe.” He was beaming; he was so proud.

Brant:—so proud. Yep; that’s how you shape someone into a keeper of the garden; that’s how you do it—you’re commenting on it; bringing it out; complimenting it, saying, “This is what you’re made for; way to go.”

Dave:You can’t shame them in.

Ann:No, I’ve tried that; it doesn’t work.

Dave:I tell you what: this conversation with Brant—

Ann:We love you, Brant!

Dave:—is so rich; it just really is. And the truth in his book, (Young) Men We Need, nobody’s telling the young men these kinds of things.

Ann:I know.

Dave:And so this is the kind of book and content you want to get for your kids/for yourself. We want to get it to you. Here’s how this works. We would love you to give us a financial gift to FamilyLife. That’s how we do what we do; because partners, like you, say, “I’m in.” And if you give it a gift of any amount, we’ll send you (Young) Men We Need; we’ll send you Brant’s book. I think you’ll love it. I think you’ll use it for decades to come. This is a truth that’s universal, and it isn’t limited to a time; it’s forever.

Here’s how it goes: just send a gift—or actually, you can go to FamilyLifeToday.com—find out how you can send a gift there; or if you would like, just give us a phone call here at 800-358-6329. That’s 800-F as in Family, L-as in Life, and the word, TODAY.

Again, man, I hope today’s conversation has been great, but it ends; and you turn it off. The book will be on your coffee table—

Ann:—coffee table; and you can underline it over and over; and read it through many times.

Dave:Of course, you can listen to this broadcast over, and over, and over again.

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