The God They See: Why Theology is Unignorable as a Parent

Kelly: When we say theology matters and it’s practical, we’re not saying you actually need to be perfect. The good theology is showing your kids, “I need to ask for forgiveness.”

Dave: Yes.

Kelly: To say, “I don’t know.” To let the kids see you begging God for things, and you wrestling with God for things. That’s actually good theology. Theology is not about giving all the right answers, because we don’t always have them.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave: Do you know what my favorite seminary class was?

Ann: Um, Communication?

Dave: That’s sort of what we do now.

Ann: My favorite, probably, was Old Testament—

Dave: —Old Testament Survey—

Ann: —with Walter Kaiser.

Kelly: Wow.

Dave: Yes, he was good!

Ann: What was yours?

Dave: Theology.

Ann: Ohhhh!

Dave: I had J.P. Moreland. He taught Theology in a way that expanded my mind! I remember thinking, “I do not even know how to think about God.” [Laughter] Until taking that class, then [I thought], “This is really critical!: how you view and understand the attributes and who God is.”

Ann: Okay, let me ask you this: before you went to seminary, would you have considered yourself a theologian?

Dave: No!

Ann: Me neither.

Dave: No! Those were the brainiacs!

Ann: I would still say—I went to seminary, and I would still say—I’m not. But—

Dave: —well, we have—

Ann: —we’re going to talk about something today!

Kelly: Nice transition! Well done! [Laughter] You guys have been doing this for a while? [Laughter]

Dave: Kelly Kapic is sitting here. That’s the voice you’re hearing. He is—you are—a theologian.

Ann: Yes, officially!

Dave: You teach at a school, Covenant—

Kelly: —I make a living at it; yes.

Dave: Yes.

Kelly: If that’s what you mean.

Dave: That’s what I would have thought a theologian is.

Kelly: Sure, sure.

Dave: It’s somebody who spent their life studying, and now is teaching others.

Kelly: Right, right.

Dave: But we have a little book you wrote. And when I say “little,” I mean little.

Kelly: Yes, it’s legitimate.

Dave: I mean, it’s about the size of my hand—A Little Book for New Theologians: Why and How to Study Theology. It’s been out for a while!

Kelly: Yes.

Dave: So, the question that Ann even asked me—would I consider myself a theologian; you would say what?

Kelly: Yes! You guys are theologians.

Dave: And you don’t just mean Dave and Ann. You mean everybody?

Kelly: No, just you guys.

Dave: No kidding; that’s what I thought. [Laughter]

Kelly: No, no; at risk of sounding cheesy, what we’ll see as we talk about it is, we really are all theologians. The question isn’t, “Are you a theologian?” It’s, “Are you a good one?” That’s worth exploring.

Theology is just theos, “from God,” right? (It means “God.”) And -ology is related to—people know the word logos, “word.” Theology is a word about God. Those could even be unspoken words. That’s why we’re all theologians. When we’re going through difficulty—if we’re going through infertility, whether we speak them or not, we’re having thoughts about God.

When we’re having aches in this world and we’re struggling, when we’re having hopes and delights, there’s a lot of theology that’s going on. Part of it is just recognizing we are theologians. So, how do we make sure that the God we’re responding to and worshiping is the true and living God and not a figment of our imagination?

Ann: Kelly, why did you want to write this book?

Kelly: Because I get to do this for a living! I love what I do. I teach college students at Covenant College. These are 18- to 22-year-olds. They’re studying history, law, chemistry—but everyone takes two classes in Theology. I love when they walk in and think, “I can’t believe I have to take a stupid class like this!” [Laughter]

Dave: Yes.

Kelly: And then, within weeks, I just watch their eyes light up, and they start to see: “This is meaning and purpose!”

It’s fascinating to me—I was having a conversation with someone recently: at Yale right now, at Harvard right now, [at] Notre Dame, there is a class on happiness. These institutions will call it different things, and they’re exploding!

Ann: On happiness—that’s the subject?

Kelly: On happiness, right—or on human flourishing, because there’s so much longing. You’re obviously going to get good jobs; you’re going to make a lot of money; but what is it all about? As Christians, we [say], “Purpose and meaning are central to what we’re doing. So, it is—the students really respond well. They do want to know how their faith matters.

Ann: Is there something that you do at the beginning of class? You’re thinking to yourself, as a professor, “They’re just going to be thinking, [Moaning] ‘I have to get through this class’?”

Kelly: Right; yes, yes.

Ann: What do you do—

Dave: —what hooks them?

Ann: —yes, what do you do that grabs their attention?

Kelly: One thing I often do on the very first day of class is, I bring, literally, a three-feet high stack of thick theology books. It’s Systematic Theology, Reformed Dogmatics, and all these intimidating [books]. Then I say, “Tell me about these books. Why won’t you read them?” They say all of these nice things, like, “Oh, it might be a little complicated.” But eventually, they’ll say, “Because it’s boring,” right? Because that’s what they’re really—

So, I say, “Well, why is that a problem?” Because if God is actually boring”—

Ann: —there it is!

Kelly: —now we’re—you know, this is the living God!

Part of it is you will work really hard in your Physics class, and you’re willing to stretch your brain for that. You think it’s important (or for History or whatever). But to think carefully about God, we [say], “Oh, that’s inappropriate!” That shows some problems for us. You don’t have to have a high IQ to be a worshiper of God, but God is also not intimidated by our questions, by our wrestling, [or] by carefully wrestling through things. Theology matters because worship does, and we’ve got to make sure we’re

worshipping the God Who is.

Dave: Okay, go there! We’re all worshipers—

Kelly: Yes.

Dave: —whether you’re a Christian or not.

Kelly: Yes.

Dave: I say that, and you say, “Yes!” But you’re the prof. [Laughter] Help us understand—connect those two dots.

Kelly: I teach a whole semester for Upper Division students called Christology. It’s all on the person and work of Jesus. Part of what we do at the beginning of the course, for a couple weeks, is “Jesus and History.” It ends with me going over Jesus in movies over the last hundred years. It shows, visually, what we’ve been talking about, and that is, if you watch Jesus in movies for the last one hundred years, you can clearly see how we’re projecting Jesus exactly how we want Him to be.

He is this very white, pale, stoic figure early on. You have Jesus Christ, Superstar, right? And all of the sudden, He’s this ‘70s figure!

Dave: [Singing] “Jesus. . . Superstar”

Kelly: You can actually—it’s pretty powerful, and it’s an example of, you know, students who often come in, and maybe their youth minister made Jesus seem like He’s just wearing Levis^® or whatever. It’s not all bad, but we all make Jesus in our image, and we do that with God.

So, we want to think through ways in which we’re being affected culturally. But it also could be (very commonly) that maybe you think of God the Father as angry and full of wrath all the time. The reality is—one of the tests is—“Is prayer something that you’re comfortable with?” Because if you’re in the presence of someone who’s angry but is willing to put up with you because “His Son loves you,” that’s an example! “Jesus loves me, and He has died for me, so that convinced the Father to love me.”

Ann: Yes, but the Father’s still mad.

Kelly: Right, He’s really mad. The Father’s ticked, but He’s just like, “Well, I love my Son, so as long as my Son likes you, I’m going to put up with you.” Most people wouldn’t put it that way, but that is surprisingly common.

Ann: That would be their theology.

Kelly: Yes! That is your theology, which is deeply affecting your ability to pray, your ability to love your kids, your spouse; how you think about life; whether you constantly live under guilt and shame. So, what does God think about you? To answer that question, you’ve got to talk about: “What is this God actually like?”

Ann: Wouldn’t that be a great dinner discussion, with kids at the table?

Kelly: Yes.

Ann: “What do you think God thinks about you?”

Kelly: That’s a great question.

Ann: Especially with teenagers, because, maybe, they haven’t always made the best decisions. What would you have said, growing up, Dave?

Dave: Well, I mean, when you were saying that, Kelly, I was thinking, “He’s absent. He doesn’t care.”

Kelly: Yes.

Dave: And it was somewhat a projection of my father, who walked out on our family when I was a little boy. But I know, as a preacher, I would often make grand statements from the Word of God about God, and these are attributes of God.

Kelly: Right.

Dave: He is present; He is holy; He is righteous.

I remember a guy came up to me 35 years ago—and I’m glad he did!—and he said, “Yes, I hear you said God’s there, and He sees me, but does He care?” I didn’t get to that part of His heart that’s revealed in Christ.

Kelly: Right, right.

Dave: It’s like every second of that man’s life and my life and your life, I’m making decisions based on, “Okay, He’s up there. Does He see me? Does He care? Is He involved?”

Kelly: Yes.

Dave: “Is He a loving, tender Father?”

Kelly: Exactly.

Dave: “Or is He just a mean, cosmic killjoy?” That’s theology, right?

Kelly: Yes.

Dave: And what Ann just said—boy, oh boy! How important it is for us as parents!

Ann: Yes.

Dave: We’re passing down what we believe about God, at the dinner table or wherever, right?

Kelly: Absolutely!

Ann: So, Kelly, let’s say we’re at the dinner table, and one of our kids says, “I feel like He’s absent. I feel like He’s disappointed.” As parents, maybe, we’re feeling the same way. What do you say to people who are struggling with wrong theology about who God is based on Scripture?

Kelly: For me, one of the pastoral approaches I would have is to ask more questions rather than to make statements.

Ann: That’s good!

Kelly: I think one of the things we get confused about with theology—and as pastors and theologians, we totally fall into this all of the time; we think: “Well, as long as you say the thing, then we’re good,” right? [Laughter] It’s kind of like dealing with someone who’s dealing with gossip. It’s like, “You know what? I don’t know if you know this, but God doesn’t actually want you to dwell one that.” And they say, “Oh! That’s all I needed!”

Dave: Yes. [Laughter]

Kelly: “I just needed to be reminded, ‘God doesn’t want you to slander someone behind their back.’ Oh! Now that I know that. . .” Right?

Ann: So, you’re not saying at the dinner table: “Well, that’s not who God is! This is who God is.”

Kelly: Well, it’s one of those examples of, we have to realize that sometimes you have to make the verses believable to the people you’re talking to.

Ann: What do you mean?

Kelly: It’s not just quoting the verse, it’s trying to help them imagine— When we, as parents, as imperfectly as we do, try to love the kids in the midst of their mess—not acting as if the mess has no consequences, but loving them in this radical kind of way—that starts to make it more believable, that that is true about God.

But I do find that’s where the questions come in. I really like how you framed it: “Tell me, what do you think God thinks about you right now?” Then you can actually speak to what’s going on in the heart rather than presuming we know; because sometimes the kid—maybe it’s not that God is absent; maybe it’s that God is overly concerned, [as if] God is this nit-picky God or something like that. So, you really have to ask in order to know what you even need to deal with.

But then, theologically for me, the big thing is always going back to Jesus. The way you prove that God actually does care is constantly going back to the very coming of the eternal Son of God, becoming one with us; really, in flesh, entering in and suffering and dying. That is God’s great display of His “forness” for us; for His love for us.

Ann: The gospel.

Kelly: Yes, that He is near; He is present. And now, He has poured out His Spirit on us. Getting back to Jesus constantly—it sounds cliché, but that’s really key.

Dave: Would that be your answer to how to build a good theology as opposed to—there’s bad theology!

Kelly: Oh, yes, for sure.

Dave: There’s right and wrong theology.

Kelly: Yes, yes.

Dave: Is that how we get to building a theology proper; a good, solid, biblical, correct theology?

Kelly: Yes, I mean, from a Christian perspective, the fancy word is “Trinitarian,” because the God we worship—you say, “Okay, we worship God,” but the God of the Bible—is actually the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. Interestingly enough, that God we worship, Who is Father, Son, and Spirit, biblically, the worship is directed toward Christ. The way you know the Father is to look to the Son, and the Spirit is often described as the Spirit of Christ.

That’s not minimizing the Father or the Spirit by looking to the Son; that’s actually who this God and how He’s revealed Himself, Who He is. It is good and right to constantly get our gaze on Christ, and if it’s not on Christ, then we tend to have—that’s the first sign of—a problem.

Ann: You’re working with kids all the time, in college, who are experiencing and seeing the injustice and suffering in the world. I feel like this generation—all generations, but Gen Z—is feeling the pain and the angst of the world, oftentimes.

Kelly: Yes.

Ann: How, theologically, are you dealing with that? I’m guessing that comes up in the classroom?

Kelly: It does; and it’s an example of where it can go to extremes. The Bible has always cared about injustice, about suffering, and about poverty; and it does relate to theology. Sometimes, I’ll ask students: “Explain to me what it means to know God, but you have to—I’m a new Christian, and it has to be a Bible verse.” They’ll say all these good things, like, “Well, it’s about a relationship.”

And I’ll say, “No, no, no. I just want the Bible.” They say, “Oh, just give me a—” I say, “Well, there is actually a verse that says, ‘This is what it means to know Me, says the Lord.’” They’re like, “What?” And it’s in Jeremiah, and it’s about Josiah. It says he cared about the poor, and he saw that injustice was dealt with. And it’s the same kind of thing in James, where James says, “This is true religion.” We’re like, “What’s true religion?” “To care for the widow, the orphaned, the distressed, and to keep yourself unstained by the world.”

So, wait a minute! What does it mean to know God? We make it all this philosophical thing. Well, there’s something about knowing God that’s tied to caring for those who are hurting. It’s Isaiah 1, where God is upset, because Israel thinks they know God, but by neglecting the orphan, the widow, the hurting, the marginalized, they’ve distorted their understanding of who God is and of themselves.

All of that is a long way of saying, our actions shape our theology. And the Bible is pretty clear: when we neglect injustice, and we turn a blind eye to poverty and pain, it hurts our theology, because it starts to make us misunderstand God. We think, “That’s those people.” It’s kind of like that question: “Those people are excluded, but we’re a bit better, and that’s why God—” We would never say it, but that’s what gets exposed.

Ann: And I’m always convicted when those verses come into play. You’re also saying to these kids: “All those questions you’re asking, God deeply cares about those things.”

Kelly: Yes, exactly!

Ann: Deeply! And maybe He’s wanting to use us.

Kelly: Yes. And you’ll learn about God by being involved in those things. That’s part of the point. It seems to be, when James is saying, “Here’s true religion. . . because faith without works is dead. . . because if you say you have faith and do no works, the question is, What are you having faith in?”

Ann: Yes.

Kelly: “Who is this?” I’m a Protestant, and I believe in justification by faith alone, but the Bbile warns about distorting that faith. Interestingly enough, it’s not because you’re doing these things to earn God’s favor, but in response to God’s favor. If we’re not involved in some meaningful way, then it can be a sign that we’ve misunderstood His favor.

Ann: Okay, I have one other question I’d love to ask. Don’t you love having a Professor in the studio? [Laughter]

We’re living in a day where absolutes—moral absolutes—a lot of people would say, “Well, that’s your truth.”

Kelly: Right.

Ann: And I’m guessing students, especially (though we’ve done it for generations)—are you getting any pushback: “Well, that’s your truth.” The theology is your truth; the way you’re viewing theology, I should say. But they’re saying, “That’s not my truth.”

Kelly: Right.

Ann: I have a whole different view of God, of being moral. That’s happening more and more where they’re saying there are no morals absolutes, or there are no absolutes. And Scripture! “Ha! There are no absolutes.”

Kelly: Right.

Ann: Are there absolutes?

Kelly: It’s a very tricky question. It’s trickier than people want to admit.

Ann: Yes, and our kids—don’t you think our kids are asking these questions?

Kelly: Oh, they are asking! And I would encourage parents: rather than panicking, which is all of our first instinct—

Ann: —oh, man! I was good at panicking. [Laughter]

Kelly: —actually ask what they’re asking. It doesn’t mean they’re right, but you’re trying to understand, because God is absolute. His Word is trustworthy, authoritative, binding, etc. But we have lots of evidence in the history of the church of ways that we have taken the Bible in inappropriate ways. By being naïve or ignorant of that fact, it hurts us. Sometimes, people are legitimately asking questions because the Church has confused some kind of cultural thing with an absolute, right?

For example, the history of missions—missiology—is a great field of this, where it really exposed this. We have letters of a missionary in Japan (and it was like the middle of the 19^th Century), and he was talking about what God was doing. He said, “But so far from godly, because the men are still wearing skirts, and they’re sitting on the floor despite our—” It's so offensive, but you realize, it’s so clear to us: you confused a cultural thing with godliness!

The hard part for us is to figure out how we are doing it! What are ways—yet, what are the things that are not? So, we just have to think through that carefully, right? What does that mean? Because we can’t play fast and loose with Scripture, but we’ve just got to make sure it’s Scripture that’s saying it, not something else.

Ann: That’s why we need theologians.

Kelly: That’s right!

Ann: Good theologians!

Kelly: That’s right.

Dave: You are theologians.

Ann: Yes, but good theologians.

Dave: I would, you know, almost end here. You tell me your perspective. We need to be practical theologians. In other words, especially as we’re thinking [about] marriage and family, as we sit at a dinner table or wherever (a family room), having a conversation with our teenaged or college-aged kids, and we don’t live it—“God is this,” and we don’t live it—

Kelly: —yes.

Dave: —“God cares, God provides,” and we are freaking out every day, and they’re watching us. “God cares about the poor; He cares for justice,” and they just don’t see it lived out in their home, it’s like theology, if it isn’t lived, doesn’t seem like it’s even true. Is that true?

Kelly: Yes, I mean, you know it’s true; but it’s interesting to remind myself and others, when we say theology matters, and it’s practical, we’re not saying you actually need to be perfect. The good theology is showing your kids, “I need to ask for forgiveness.”

Dave: Yes.

Kelly: To say, “I don’t know.” Whether it’s about theology or something else, you are to let the kids see you begging God for things, and you wrestling with God for things. That’s actually good theology. Theology is not about giving all the right answers, because we don’t always have them.

Dave: Yes.

Kelly: It’s to apologize when we have done something wrong to them, or maybe we realize, as life goes on, “I’ve misrepresented God to you. Here’s a way that I presented Him, and it wasn’t faithful.” That helps your children!

Ann: Yes.

Kelly: You don’t have to be perfect! You have to be honest with God and them. That’s what you have to be.

Dave: That’s being a real theologian.

Ann: A real one.

Kelly: Yes.

Ann: It’s interesting; our four-year-old grandson woke his dad up the other day. Cody reads his Bible in the mornings, and Bryce sees him doing that. He said the other day, he woke up and Bryce was standing right by his head. It was super early, like 5:30! But Bryce had his Bible in his hand, and he said, “Are we getting up to spend time in the Bible this morning?” [Laughter]

You know, Cody was like, “Yes, maybe not this early!”

Kelly: Yes.

Ann: But they did; they got up. I thought, “Man, that’s the start of it!” Isn’t it?

Kelly: Yes.

Ann: When our kids see that we’re in the Bible, we’re trusting it, we need it; we’re not perfect. That’s theology: knowing who God is in a healthy way.

Shelby: I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Kelly Kapic on FamilyLife Today. You know, I really want to hear how Kelly responds to what Ann just said in her story, but first, he’s written a book called A Little Book for New Theologians: Why and How to Study Theology. You know, this book offers a concise introduction to the study of theology for newcomers to the field; people who, maybe, think theology is boring or they’ll never be someone who studies it.

In the book, he highlights the value and importance of theological study and explains its unique nature as a serious discipline for us as followers of Jesus. You can go online to FamilyLifeToday.com and click on the “Today’s Resources” link to get a copy or get the link in the show notes. Or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329; again, that number is 800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Or you could feel free to drop us something in the mail, too. Our address is FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, FL 32832.

I know that some of you have actually already been to a Weekend to Remember^® marriage getaway, but we just wanted to make sure that you’ve heard that there’s a lot that has changed recently. We have a new speaker line-up, and entirely different guidebook, and so much of the getaway has been changed and intentionally curated for you and your spouse to grow together like never before. Right now would be a great time to head back to a Weekend to Remember, and now through January 22^nd, all getaways are 50% off. You can find a date and location that works for you at WeekendtoRemember.com.

Okay, kids don’t want to go to bed when they’re young. They just don’t! You know this, right? But they often ask thoughtful questions right before bedtime that we should pay attention to. Kelly Kapic had that happen to him.

Kelly: I would often, at bedtime, take the kids upstairs, read them a Bible story, and pray for them, and then I was like, “Yay! I get to go watch ESPN!”

Ann: Yes!

Kelly: “The day is finally done!” But as you know, when they’re little, that’s often when they want to talk, because they don’t want to go to bed.

Ann: Yes.

Kelly: Which is great and terrible, right? [Laughter] I’ll never forget one night—my son and daughter, for a long time when they were young, were in the same room—I was leaving, and I heard my son say, “Papa, I have a question.” I thought, “Not tonight.” [Laughter] I was already turned toward the door, and I was leaving. But I could tell something in his voice. I turned around, and he said, “I don’t know if I love God.” I thought, “Okay, here we go!” You know, “I’m coming back. Forget ESPN!”

Ann: Yes.

Kelly: And he said, “I know I love you and Mama, but I don’t even know what it means to love God. I don’t know what it means for God to love me.”

Ann: Wow.

Kelly: All of the sudden, I was thinking, “That’s such an amazing theological question!” We all think we know what the answer is, but you don’t know what the answer is until you have to work and explain it to a little kid, right?

There is something very beautiful about that, where he could say that and not have panic, and start to talk about what God’s love looks like and how he can experience it.

Ann: We’re all thinking, “What did you say?!”

Kelly: Well, it was interesting; I had to think, and I said, “You know, when you’re playing with Ruby [our dog], or you and I are wrestling on the couch and we’re giggling, or you’re doing this with Mama, the love you’re experiencing is an extension of God’s love. That’s not something different; that is a taste of God’s love. And it’s even bigger and greater than that. That cold orange you’re eating on a hot summer day is a taste of God’s love.”

In all of that, it’s training him to see God present throughout the world, and to lift his gaze to start to see God’s love.

Shelby: What does it look like to explore the transformative concept of being whole, challenging stereotypes about poverty and generosity? Well, Kelly Kapic is going to be back tomorrow with Dave and Ann Wilson, along with his wife Tabitha, to talk about just that. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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