The Anatomy of an Affair: Dave Carder

Episode Transcript

The Anatomy of an Affair

Guest: Dave Carder
From the series: The Anatomy of an Affair (Day 1 of 2)
Air date: March 31, 2025

Dave: Okay, I think people might be surprised: as a pastor of 30 years, the number-one call that I would get from someone who wanted to meet with me is on what? Now, you know what the answer is because of what we’re talking about today. But if you didn’t have any idea, what do you think my assistant would come in and say?

Ann: If it’s a couple, I would say an affair. If it’s a guy, I would say porn.

Ann: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave: And I’m Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave: Man, my wife knows everything. [Laughter] You’ve been married to me too long.

Ann: Because I’ve been married to you a long time.

Dave: Would you have thought that, though, if you didn’t know what we were talking about today?

Ann: I might think that just based on friendships and relationships with women and the pain that I’ve seen in marriages.

Dave: Yes, and as I think about that—I’m talking late ‘80s/’90s to today—affairs have been a part of marriage from the beginning. People want to figure out: “Can we make it; can we save this thing?”

Ann: “And how do I not fall into this; can my marriage be protected from an affair?”

Dave: Yes, we’re going to talk about that today with Dave Carder. Dave Carder is, in my mind, the expert on this—not because he’s had an affair—but you’ve written about this and studied this. Man, your books have helped so many couples, Dave. Welcome to FamilyLife Today.

Dave Carder: Thanks a lot. I’m looking forward to this.

Ann: We are too.

Dave: You have been talking about this subject since when?

Dave Carder: I started in ’77, when I tracked down my senior pastor, who ran off with another woman.

Ann: Wow!

Dave: Really?

Dave Carder: Yes.

Dave: Tell us that story.

Dave Carder: You want to hear the story?

Dave: Yes; I read it in your book, and I found it fascinating—because you had several stories like that—that got you to say, “I’ve got to start jumping into this.”

Dave Carder: I would never have decided to do what I’m doing today or what I’ve done. Actually, I was on a road trip with a bunch of Christian teenagers, doing Backyard Bible studies, and tent evangelism, and that kind of stuff; came back on a Saturday. Went to church early on Sunday morning—doing youth ministries and stuff like that all through the day—went home Sunday night after the service broadcast. Got a phone call from my senior pastor’s wife, who was crying hysterically on the phone. Drove over to the parsonage; walked into the house. Three teenagers were over on that couch, hugging themselves, just sobbing. The wife was at the kitchen table with her head in her hands. Two of those kids had been with me on this mission trip. We talked a while.

Basically, I began to think to myself, “I know more about this than I think I do”; I didn’t know that I knew anything about it. From there—about 11 o’clock that night—I drove to an apartment building, where I used to have Bible studies in the bottom floor every other Thursday night with all the boys in the apartment complex. I crawled on my hands and knees up to the first floor plate glass window; because I was so afraid of being seen, being viewed as somebody—

Ann: So you’re sneaking.

Dave Carder: Yes, I’m sneaking over there.

Ann: Yes, you are.

Dave Carder: I get up in that window, and look up in that window, and look inside. There’s not a stitch of furniture in there. I had just been there two weeks ago; that was an apartment that a single mom had with two teenaged boys. That began to put pieces together in my head.

I went home that night—went to bed; got up early the next morning—went to the school bus stop. Sure enough, there were some of my boys from my Bible study there. I asked them, “What happened to Such-and-such?” “Oh, they moved,” “What do you mean they moved?” “Well, they moved.” “Well, how’d they move? Where did they go?” They said, “They wouldn’t tell us where they were going, but they had a big U-Haul truck out here.” I immediately knew where the only U-Haul Truck store was in town. I get in my car and drive to the U-Haul truck store. Basically—

Ann: —you’re like a spy.

Dave Carder: No, I’m mad at this point in time.

Ann: Yes.

Dave Carder: I’m really angry at this guy if this is the truth. I go to the U-Haul truck store, and I say, “I think my senior pastor has rented a U-Haul truck. Can I look at the invoice and make sure all of the details are correct?” He gave them to me. I looked; and sure enough—Dallas, Texas—he rented a U-Haul truck to Dallas, Texas.

Dave: So he took off.

Dave Carder: Yes, he just took off.

I drove home, packed a suitcase; drove 90 miles to an airport; bought an airplane ticket and went down to Dallas-Fort Worth. I waited a whole week in a hotel—sat in the 14th floor with binoculars—watching the U-Haul truck store right down below me. He didn’t show up. I had to go home for a week. I took his picture down to the U-Haul truck guy, and said, “He is bringing a truck in here; I know it will probably be on Monday. Here’s my address and phone number. I want you to call me when you see him. Tell him”—God will forgive you if you have to lie—“Just tell him I’m going to send him some money.” He’s desperate for money; I know that. “Get an address for me, and call me.” I went back home.

Monday morning at 10 o’clock I get a call from this guy down in Dallas, Texas; he said [whispering], “He’s in my office.” I said, “How do you know?” He said, “He’s got the same [clothing] in my office as he has on in the picture. I know it’s him!” I said, “Okay; call me back.” He called me back. That afternoon, I flew back to Dallas, took a friend with me—we got a rental car; drove over to this house—walked up, knocked on the door. This single mom screamed when she opened the door and saw me there.

Ann: Wow!

Dave Carder: To make a long story short, we tried to talk him into coming back; he wouldn’t. I was crying so hard I couldn’t drive. My buddy drove us back to the airport; we turned the car in. As we pulled in, I said, “You know, Paul, when we get home, I’m going back to graduate school—and I’m going to figure this out—because I’ve only worked for three pastors, and two of them have run off with other women in their church.”

Ann: How old were you at the time, Dave, when you said that?

Dave Carder: That was in ’77, so I would have been 32.

Ann: How many years had you and Ronnie already been married?

Dave Carder: Eleven.

Ann: Okay, so that was it.

Dave Carder: It was it. I was going to find this guy and—

Ann: You’re a good friend.

Dave Carder: We were great friends!

Ann: So that’s why you were so devastated.

Dave Carder: I went back to graduate school and started working on this, and took
courses to get into graduate school in the field of counseling and psychology. Basically,
long story short, here I am.

Dave: You’ve spent over 40 years—

Dave Carder: —40 years.

Dave: —as a therapist. You have run a counselling center at EvFree in Fullerton, California. You were in Detroit, where I was—

Dave Carder: Yes.

Ann: —for a little bit.

Dave: —just down the road for a while. All these decades you have been helping couples navigate this topic.

Dave Carder: Yes.

Dave: Is it different now than it was?

Dave Carder: Oh, yes; it is quite a bit different.

Dave: In what way?

Dave Carder: In 1995, the new way started by reaching people on the internet. At that point, I would tell you that the old girlfriend and the old boyfriend became the most dangerous person in your life. Before that, it was pretty much a matter of—and we used to say it all the time—“First affairs are always about comfort and distraction”; there’s reasons why people get involved with adultery in most cases. You have to find out what some of those reasons are—it didn’t make him do it—but it certainly contributed to the wellness failure.

Back in Luke, when Jesus was tempted, after all those temptations, it says in Luke 4, the devil left Him for a more opportune time; meaning, we’re all strong most of the time; but sometimes, we are not. We’ve got to figure out: “What changed in you?” and “What caused this vulnerability in you?”

Dave: Let’s talk about—and you write it in your books, Anatomy of an Affair and Torn Asunder—I remember seeing these books in the ‘90s.

Ann: Me, too, Dave. I remember, “Thank goodness somebody’s written something.”

Dave: As a pastor, it was like something we needed in the church. You just said, “Many affairs are the result of comfort or distraction”; explain what that means.

Dave Carder:
• It’s very soothing; sex is soothing. God designed five or six different chemicals that all they do is produce soothing, great experiences inside of you. They’re built that way. People who are stressed out, burned out, empty—we use the “HALT B” acronym, etcetera—those people are vulnerable to someone being nice, kind, generous, loving, sensitive, etcetera.

• The other thing is distraction. There’s nothing to distract you as much as being interested in somebody else. Infatuation is a crazy thing to go through—we all know—it happened to us in adolescence. That’s why we married that person!—we’re crazy about them.

We look for those things: in taking a history of a couple with adultery—that’s one of the first things you want to find out is—“What drove this vulnerability?” Think in terms of grains of sand that wore down the boundaries that normally would have protected them. Every one of those contributive factors would be insufficient by itself; but clustered together, they take you down. The more of those you can find, the more likely you can figure out why this happened at this time with this person.

Ann: Wow! Interesting. So you and Ronnie have been married fifty-four years?

Dave Carder: Yes.

Ann: How many kids?

Dave Carder: Four.

Ann: As you watched this happen around you, with so many friends having affairs, I’m assuming that you started implementing safeguards in your own marriage.

Dave Carder: Oh, yes.

Ann: What did that look like?

Dave Carder: Well, I’ve always said graduate school helped my marriage more than
anything else I’ve ever done, I think. One of the things that Ronnie was always good
about—and I was, too, but I could get distracted sometimes—we’re having these
really great moments together; we get away. With four kids, you got to get away. I
began to realize and developed a mantra that really kind of began to manage our
behavior; and that is: “Spend money on your marriage.” You’ll spend it on a
refrigerator—

Ann: Did you hear that Hun?!

Dave Carder: —and shoes.

Ann: “Spend money on your marriage; whoo!”

Dave: Yes, I do spend money on our marriage; don’t we?

Ann: We do.

Dave: We do this.

Ann: Yes; we didn’t used to, but we do now.

Dave: And it’s interesting: when we do a marriage weekend—whether it’s Weekend to
Remember with FamilyLife, or we do Vertical Marriage weekends—couples will come
up, and say, “This is the first time we’ve been away in 25 years.” And we’re like, “That’s
not a good thing. I’m glad you got away; you need to do this every year.”

Dave Carder: And I would say, at certain seasons of life, you might even need to do it
more frequently. And some seasons of life, maybe not so much.

Ann: —like…

Dave Carder: Let’s just say you’re able to do things without the kids just because of the
nature of the beast: maybe, you’ve got teenagers; or they’re off to college; or you’re kind
of an empty nester, so you might not need so many of those. But when you’ve got little
ones, and you both are chugging along at 24/7, you have got to say, “No,” to this and go
away. You got to find yourselves again; you get lost in trying to raise your children.
You’re teaching them all the wrong things—they think they’re the most important thing in
this marriage—and they’re not!

Dave: They’re close, but they’re not the most important.

Ann: Especially as a mom, it’s easy to make them the priority.

Dave Carder: Oh, it is.

Ann: One, they’re so demanding; and then, you feel guilty if you’re gone. If you’re a working mom, and you’re going to leave again, you feel even more guilty. But I think you’re right to spend money. I love that: “Get out,” “Go on a date,” “Get away!”

Dave Carder: Exactly.

Dave: Here’s a great example. You don’t know this Dave, but sitting behind you is
Justin Adams at our audio board; in fact, he built the whole thing in there. But Bruce
Goff is normally sitting there. Guess where he is?

Ann: He is as our audio engineer.

Dave: He is away with his wife—little kids—they’re gone; they’re [kids] home.

Ann: Three young daughters.

Dave: And they’re away for five days. That is a great thing for them to be doing, right?

Dave Carder: It is a great thing for them to be doing.
Dave: Every marriage needs to do that. I know a lot of us say: “We can’t do it; it’s going to cost too much,” “I can’t get out; I’m not going to leave my kids.” You have to.

Dave Carder: When your memories end—your memories together end—when your first baby is born, you are done.

Ann: Wow!

Dave: You are done?

Dave Carder: You are done. You will go through the next few years, raising your kids and probably becoming great parents; but come the time the last child leaves, you will sit down at the breakfast table, and look across, and say, “Who are you?!”

Ann: —or even: “I do not even know you,” or “…like you.”

Dave Carder: Yes!

Ann: On our 25th wedding anniversary, Dave—

Dave: Oh, no; are we even going to talk about this?

Ann: —Dave prayed for a free trip to Mexico, and God answered that prayer. We had a free trip to Mexico. Someone got married—wanted us to go—asked me to go too.

Dave: —wanted us to do their wedding. They didn’t know I had been praying for months. Because I’m a cheapy, I was like:—

Dave Carder: You and me both!

Dave: —“God, You’ve got to make this free”; and we ended up in Mexico.

Ann: But I remember we sat on that beach, looking out over the ocean, holding hands. I remember saying to Dave, “I would marry you again—knowing everything about you; going through everything we have gone through—I would still choose you.” We also said, “We need to do this every year.”

Dave: And we’ve done it every year since.

Ann: I think we all know that marriage is not easy. We have resources, here, at
FamilyLife that I think will really help you. I hope, and I really pray, that you’ll just take
advantage of the resources that we have for you. You can go to
FamilyLife.com/MarriageHelp. Again, that’s FamilyLife.com/MarriageHelp.

Dave: I know there are couples listening—they are like, “I want to protect my marriage. You have already given me some things I need to do,”—you mentioned earlier and used an acrostic, HALT; I know what you mean: Hungry, Angry, Lonely, Tired.

Dave Carder: —and bored.

Dave: I never heard the “B.”

Ann: Oh, “B.”

Dave: Talk about that a little bit; because couples need to understand that’s when they are going to be weak, right?

Dave Carder: That is when you are vulnerable. That’s when Jesus was vulnerable in temptation.
• “Hungry”: The sense of emptiness, the urge to do something. “I’ve got to find something”; a craving, if you will. The feeling: “I’ve got to fill something up.”

• “Angry”: When you are irritated, frustrated—you have nobody to share it with; you keep it all inside—you lay awake at night, etcetera.

• “Lonely”: You are all alone. Alcoholics call the bottle “a woman,”—I heard that in AA for years—it is a sense of comfort for you when you are exhausted, tired, worn out, at your wits’ end, hanging by a thread. If somebody can rescue you, great; you tell yourself, “I can’t do this; I need somebody or something.”

• Or when you are “Bored”/plain old bored. We started adding bored to that list when the internet came in, because that is one of the big drivers in pornography. Today, it’s a click away. That’s the thing that is so disgusting, disappointing, and disturbing.

Dave: Yes, one of the things you said in both your books about affairs is: a lot of affairs happen because the marriage loses fun, loses joy. What does that mean? I love what you said because I’ve always said, Dave: “I’m going to write a book someday called You Need to Have an Affair—

Dave Carder: —”with Your Wife.”

Dave: —with Your Spouse.” I remember I pitched that once to a publisher. [The publisher said,] “That’s a terrible book.” “No, no, no—with Your Spouse.” Because the
things that an affair brings—I don’t know this, but I’ve heard—are the things you lack in your marriage. I read that in your book; I’m like, “Okay, you wrote that years ago; explain that.”

Dave Carder: Okay, so let me do it from the back door. One of the things that we forget to do, and need to do, is to build experiences in our relationship that generate infatuation, generate feelings for each other. Love is a feeling—we try to make it go away: “Oh, it passes; it’s not necessary,”—it is necessary. It’s the icing; it’s the energy; it’s the whatever you want to call it on the marriage.

I’ll give you a little exercise. The key to it in the recovery from the affair is the timing of when you begin to do this. When couples are on the downhill side of recovery from an affair—and certainly, for couples who have not been involved in an affair—here’s a great fun exercise; we call them “Eight Greats.” You each privately make a list of your eight greatest experiences, apart from your children and without friends.

Ann: Oh, this is good.

Dave Carder: You cannot include your marriage, but you can include your honeymoon. Now, if you are on a family vacation, and your kids are with you—but you had a dinner alone, like at Disney, where we are, that is fine; no kids—no kids can be available.

After you each have made your list—do it in pencil, because you will change it—after you each are finished, you get together; and you merge the lists. The ones that match—three or four are pretty common—then, she gets five; you get six; she gets seven; you get eight. Now, Orange County, three years ago, the average cost for a divorce was $36,000; divide 8 into $36,000. You could spend $4,500 on each one of those eight items, and you will be miles ahead of what you end up with after going through them.

One of the recovery points is: “When you leave counselling, I want you to do one of those every so many months.” Most of them are not expensive items. Many times, they are very simple things. You can include even experiences in your dating relationships, as you look back. Just come up with your list of “Eight Greats.” The reason we do this is the very same reason why girlfriends and boyfriends are so dangerous; because the infatuation is stored in your brain, from the first time you did that experience. We’re trying to stimulate that, and bring that to your conscious thought. So when you go back, and do something that was really a highlight in your relationship—and you sit on that beach or whatever it is—you think back to the first time: it’s refreshing; it’s invigorating.

Ann: You experience those feelings again.

Dave Carder: You do!

Ann: Give us an example of what one of yours and Ronnie’s would be.

Dave Carder: One time, when we were dating, we did a walk on a railroad track that was in disarray; they weren’t using it. We walked into a park. I was a Boy Scout; I was the quartermaster, so I got used to cooking for the group, and troop, and everything else. I put two steaks, baked potatoes wrapped in foil; took a lighter along. We found a place—we built a fireplace—a little wood place. I had one of these portable fold-out grates. Long story short, I cooked us two baked potatoes and two steaks on that grill, out in the middle of nowhere. It sealed it, baby; she married me. [Laughter] It worked!

Ann: I would, too. That’s this cool romantic, rustic—

Dave: What comes to your mind if you think of “Eight Greats” for us right now?

Ann: Before we were married?

Dave: Anytime.

Dave Carder: Anytime in marriage.

Ann: This is—

Dave: —last four years.

Ann: First year of our marriage, we went up into the mountains in Colorado. We were being trained for Cru.

Dave: This is seriously a memory?

Ann: Yes, and we decided to go up into the mountains with a tent; we borrowed a tent.

Dave Carder: Oh! I’ve got some of those.

Dave: You’re going to love this. You know what I decided to do? “Let’s fast while we’re up in 10,000-feet altitudes.”

Ann: The best part of camping is eating! We’re not even eating; I can remember we’re starving. It’s beautiful; it was cold.

Dave: Then we decided, “We’re breaking the fast.”

Ann: We were so bored.

Dave: We go fishing, because it was the only way we were getting food.

Ann: Here’s my memory—

Dave: I caught nothing; that’s what I remember. I caught nothing; and we got in the car, and we drove home.

Ann: But here’s my memory: I remember sitting on a rock in the absolute gorgeous mountains with this big lake. You had your guitar, and I remember you just worshiping. I was like, “Look at our life; this is amazing.” That was just this great—what is one of yours?

Dave: That was not even close to the top eight. [Laughter] I’m like, “That is what you remember?”

I remember driving to Manhattan from Detroit, right before a football season—because with the Lions, I had a lot of work coming up—and just going to Broadway plays, and eating in restaurants, and driving home.

Ann: Oh, it was so fun.

Dave: A lot of it was the drive.

Ann: But we had to spend some money.

Dave: Let me ask you this, Dave—because that’s one side of it—bringing joy and fun back. The other side—because I’m thinking there’s couple listening, who is like, “How do we protect ourselves, especially in this day and age?”—you’ve got the internet; you’ve got old boyfriends, girlfriends; Facebook; you name it—not saying those things are bad.

Ann: —social media.

Dave: But we’ve got a different world to protect ourselves from. Let me ask you this real quick: “Billy Graham Rule; do you agree with it or not?”

Dave Carder: Yes.

Dave: I mean men not really spending time alone with women who aren’t their wife,—

Ann: That doesn’t fly today, you know.

Dave: —in ministry.

Dave Carder: I know. Remember: every Monday, men and women, who are colleagues at work, get on planes; drive to customers in another city; take them out to an expensive restaurants; they have all the alcohol you want. You take them to sporting events, and concerts, and everything else; then, you go back to the same hotel. That is corporate dating.

One of the things to remember about that—and I’m going to come back to your question in a second—this behavior is called ego-dystonic; meaning, it’s contrary to a person’s individual values and stated beliefs. Now, in some cultures it is not; but in a Christian man or woman, most of them would say, “Adultery is wrong”; it is on God’s top ten list. When they act out like that, it really fractures them very, very deeply on the inside.

“How can you protect yourself?” is the question: you have to be honest with yourself. A lot of this starts with texting—going back; getting in touch: “I wonder what ever happened to Susie?”—my wife, if she’s listening, she’ll tell you: “Susie is an old high school girlfriend,” so I always use “Susie.” [Laughter]

Dave: Is that a real name or made up?

Dave Carder: No, it’s her real name.

You get on the internet, and you start looking for them. Pretty soon, it’s just kind of casual; and you are texting: “You’ve got three kids; I’ve got three kids,” “Oh, yes… [Inaudible]…,” and on and on.

Ann: It starts innocently.

Dave Carder: It starts innocently. But that infatuation you had for that person is locked into your brain. You never forget the person you kissed passionately—unless you were really promiscuous—made out with you. It’s there; t’s all there.

Are you a car guy?

Dave: Oh, yes.

Dave Carder: Okay, [as] a senior in high school, I drove a 426 Plymouth. I sold that; [Laughter] I hate myself. But anyway, it was a great car. Here, Barrett-Jackson, maybe six or seven years ago—something like that—after the 2008 crash, I’m watching the auction. Here comes this Plymouth Belvedere across the auction block, just almost identical to what I drove. I thought, “That car sold for almost $200,000. The guy who bought it—when he got in that car, and started that up, and drove it off—that car was rocking with that big cam in it. [Laughter] He was 16, dragging Main Street”; okay? That’s what he was doing; he just paid a lot for it.

Now, that’s what happens with old girlfriends and boyfriends. If you stay in touch with them for 30 days, you will feel confused about the person that you married; because your spouse had stopped generating those kinds of feelings in you.

Dave: If you stay with them another 30 days—I’ve heard you say this—

Dave Carder: —you will find ways to meet and have sex. It will sweep you right off your feet.

Dave: That’s why I didn’t let Ann’s old boyfriend, who ended up playing for the Detroit Lions, come to the Detroit Lion’s Bible study. He came to our front door.

Ann: He totally came to the Bible study.

Dave: I’m like, “You’re not coming into this house.” I let him in; but I did have a thought, as he got to the front door, like, “I don’t want this guy in my Bible study.” Fortunately, he was only with the team two weeks; and they cut him, but that was fine.

I had that feeling, like, “Of course, I love him; I want to lead him to Christ.” But there was a protective part of me, like, “You [Ann] don’t need to be around this guy, and I don’t need to be around my old girlfriends.”

Dave Carder: All of us have downturns in our marriage; and that might be one in those vulnerable times, just like the devil trying to come back and tempt Jesus.

Dave: I cut you off; what were you going to say?

Ann: Yes. This will be a great podcast to share with your spouse, just to say: “Hey, I listened to this today. Let’s talk about this when we get home,” or “Sometime, let’s go on a date; and talk about how we are doing. Do we have any protection going on in our marriage? And have we had fun, or have we spent money?”

Dave: Yes, there’s two sides.

Dave Carder: Yes.

Dave: “Let’s make a list, and say, ‘What are we going to do to add some of the feelings we had before?’ and ‘What are we going to do to protect?’” Is that right?

Dave Carder: Yes.

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today. We’re Ann and Dave Wilson. We’ve been talking with
Dave Carder.

Dave: Yeah, his book, Anatomy of an Affair—man, you talk about relevant stuff—that
was a great conversation.

Ann: I think we all need to be reminded of these simple truths.

Dave: And if you want to get a copy of Dave’s book, you can go right now, online, to FamilyLifeToday.com and order your book there. Or if you’d like to give us a call, just call us at 800-358-6329. That’s 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word, TODAY.

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