New Year, New “Us”

Shelby: Hey, this is Shelby Abbott. I just wanted to take a second to thank you if you gave to our matching program that happened in December. You know, checks are still coming in; and we don’t have all the numbers yet; but if you gave, I sincerely want to say how grateful I am for your generosity to help make FamilyLife Today possible. Thank you so much for giving and supporting this ministry. And even if you didn’t give, and you’ve just shared episodes with someone, or even if you just listen, thank you for being a part of FamilyLife Today.

Alright, let’s go jump into today’s episode.

Brian: There are those moments that God allows us to build. He could have stopped you at any moment in your disobedience: He could have brought somebody into your life; He could have shaken you to the core; He could have—but He let that build. Why? Because He knew there was a longer trajectory for what that story would tell.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave: Alright, FamilyLife Today, it’s an exciting day. We’ve got a couple guys we love in the studio.

Ann: We love these guys.

Dave: Do you love them? I mean, maybe we’re overexaggerating.

Ann: Yes! And we love their wives. We think they’re pretty—

Dave: That’s what you really love.

Ann: I love these guys, too. They’re remarkable.

Dave: Yes. Brian Goins, Ed Uszynsk—

Ann: —Uszynski?

Dave: How do you pronounce [tongue tied while trying to pronounce his name]. [Laughter]

Ed: Blaming it on my name.

Dave: Yes.

Ed: You’ve got to own this one, man. [Laughter]

Dave: I’m sorry. They’re going to edit that out. It will never see the light of day.

Ed: It might be the best part of the whole show.

Ann: Hey, how many kids? How long have you guys been married?

Ed: Twenty-four years; Amy and I just celebrated 24 on October 3^rd. And we have four kids: 23, 20, 18, and 12.

Ann: Oh, nice.

Brian: Twenty-seven years—

Ann: --oohhh!

Brian: —topped you.

Ed: Wow.

Brian: Even though I’m much younger. [Laughter] And we have three kids: 23, 20 (about to be 21), and 15. Yes, so we’ve still got work cut out; we’ve got tail ends that are holding us back from that empty nest stage that you guys get to do now.

Dave: Are you guys looking forward to the empty nest?

Brian: Oh, man!

Ed: Nnnnnno.

Brian: You’re not?!

Ed: No, I’m not, man. I’m really not.

Ann: Ohh.

Ed: It’s interesting: I love having our kids be a part of what we’re doing; I really do. I’ll miss it.

Ann: Some of our guests know your voice, Brian, because they’ve heard you and Shaunti together on your podcast. Tell us what the podcast is. How long have you been doing that with Shaunti?

Brian: Yes, it’s Married with Benefits.

Ann: It’s so good.

Brian: It’s a bit sporadic. [Laughter] We have more of a seasonal approach to ours. Although those seasons happen to be separated by a few years, maybe. I don’t know if we even planned all this, but “Questions Every Wife Is Asking” is Season 1; “Questions Every Husband Is Asking,” because husbands felt left out, is Season 2; and then, “Questions Every Couple Is Asking about Sex.”

Dave: You two have also been working on quite a project for several years.

Ann: They’ve had a couple projects, actually.

Dave: That’s right: Weekend to Remember^®revised, reimagined.

Brian: Yes, we got to be a part of that.

Dave: And then, the Art of Marriage [revised].

Brian: Yes.

Dave: Is that what we’re talking about today? We’re going to talk a little Art of Marriage; what do you think?

Brian: Yes, Art of Marriage was fun to do, because we got to interview people like you, you know? It was just an incredible two-year experience. It just took us two years to put together. [Laughter] Just two years.

Brian: Yes, no big deal.

Ann: I can’t—

Dave: You deserve a break.

Ann: I can’t wait for listeners all over the world to download this; to go through it—to go through it as small group material—I’m glad that it is on RightNow Media, because they have so many people who will go through it.

Brian: Yes, they do; yes.

Ann: And it is good.

Brian: Yes. Well, tell us about that, because we got to interview you. You’ve seen some of the sessions; you’ve seen some of the clips. What excites you about the Art of Marriage?

Ann: Well, I’m a woman, so, of course, I’m going to say this: in the original Art of Marriage, it was phenomenal as well, but with this Art of Marriage, the majority—

Brian: —are couples.

Ann: —are couples. I like hearing the wife’s voice; her perspective; what’s going on. I like that it’s diverse in a lot of different ways—diverse in age, diverse in race. So, I feel like there is something for everyone. I like it. I love it!

Brian: That’s good.

Dave: My first thought is: it’s a different day, culture-wise today, than it was—what was it, 20 years ago?

Brian: 2011, so about 11 or 12 years ago; yes.

Dave: So, the presenters are very vulnerable and raw. From the word, “Go,” they’re sharing weakness and struggle as well as victory and identity in Christ. I’m not saying the first one didn’t do that; but in that day, that wasn’t commonplace. A generation almost pushed back from that. Now, we have a generation who won’t listen to you unless you are somebody they can relate to with the struggle. You guys captured that. These are people, [where] you are going, “Whoa!”

Brian: The first one was so good; it was pioneering in so many different ways. When they asked us and entrusted us with this mission of: “We want you to re-imagine this thing, because so many guides are wearing it out,”—wearing out the DVDs, wearing out the videos. [Laughter] They were like, “We need something—it needs to be updated.”

Dave: In terms of how God used that first one: when we were asked to speak at the Love Like You Mean It cruise the first time, there were guys quoting: “You said your marriage is 9.8…!” They were quoting what we said. Everybody!

Brian: Wow.

Dave: I was like, “Wow! God has used this tool all around the world.” It was fascinating to see, “Wow, God really is using it.”

Ed: That’s good.

Brian: Whatever you have planned for this interview—I don’t know what you guys planned. We’re taking over.

Dave: No, no, no; we’re the hosts.

Brian: No, no, no.

Ann: Yes! I’m going to let them take over. Let’s not even think about it.

Ed: It’s just Brian and Ed. This is Brian and Ed.

Dave: That’s because you don’t know Brian.

Ann: “The Brian and Ed Show!” Cheers to you! Whoo!

Brian: Yes, yes; “The Bred Show.” We’re taking over.

Ann: We’re toasting.

Dave: Alright, alright.

Ann: Yay!

Dave: You don’t know these guys like I know them. [Laughter]

Ann: Are you afraid?

Dave: Probably a little bit.

Ed: Pass me the guitar, because we’ve got—

Brian: Yes, that’s right; are you going to sing?

Dave: Yes, Ed.

Brian: Because somebody’s got to sing.

Ed: Maybe at the end.

Dave: Why don’t you sing something?

Ed: If people hang in there, they can hear me at the end.

Dave: Sure, you’re up!

Brian: You’re an audiophile; you love music. You can quote—

Ed: I love listening to music. I don’t sing into microphones.

Brian: Yes, yes; no.

When we think about—you guys do such a good job of this—

It was so fun having your story in the first Art of Marriage; but in this new version, we’ve got you more of a voice, a consistent voice. I think they show up in every—I think about every episode—

Ed: —pretty much—

Brian: —every session.

Ed: Yes.

Brian: But the thing that we love about you, and I think the reason why people love the show so much, is just that you guys are real and vulnerable. You lead with authenticity. I have so many people come up to me, at a Weekend to Remember^® or when we’re traveling (Jen and I are traveling), and say, “Do you know Dave and Ann Wilson? I feel like I know them. I feel like they’re my best friends.” [Laughter] Even as we’re sitting at this table—beautiful table that Jim Mitchell built, the producer of—

Ed: Shout out to Jim Mitchell.

Brian: Shout out to Jim Mitchell.

Dave: Shout out! This table is spectacular.

Brian: It is gorgeous.

Ed: It really is.

Brian: People feel like they are in these two seats right here, that are empty right now. They feel like they’re at the table with Dave and Ann, and that’s how they show up in the Art of Marriage.

Ed: They do, yes.

Brian: So, we’ve got some questions. This is from the people! The people have commissioned us.

Ann: The people. [Laughter]

Dave: The people?

Ed: We’re representing the people.

Brian: Yes, we’re representing the people who just want to [say], “What could we ask them what no one else has asked them?” That is what our charge is: the things that most people would like to ask you guys if they could.

Dave: Do we really believe this is really from the people?

Brian: This is from the people.

Dave: Okay.

Brian: So, besides us, favorite guests?

Dave: Well, besides you guys?

Ann: Oh, you guys, hands down.

Brian: Yes!

Ed: Number 2; who would be Number 2?

Brian: Yes, who would be Number 2?

Dave: It’s a long drop, but—I don’t know who you’re thinking.

Ann: I know who you’re thinking.

Dave: Tell me whom I’m thinking.

Ann: I think you’ll think of Philip Yancey.

Dave: Yes, I’m thinking of Philip Yancey.

Brian: Aww.

Ann: Is that what you were going to say?

Dave: And some of it is because he was recent, months ago.

Ann: I loved him, too, because he shared his memoir: the story of his life. I think we all know the name, Philip Yancey. We know what he has written about, but to hear where he came from—

Brian: —yes.

Ann: —whoo!

Ed: Yes, yes. I just finished it. It’s amazing, isn’t it?

Dave: It is.

Ann: It’s good, isn’t it?

Dave: It’s shocking in some ways.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: But I think I resonated, because he’s almost like a hero.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: Because I never knew him, but I read Disappointment with God early in my Christian walk. I’d never heard anybody say those things out loud, like, “I’m disappointed with God.” You’re not allowed to say that! Whether you think it or not, you just keep it to yourself; and he voiced it and said, “That’s common, and here is why…” That book, in some ways, changed my life.

To have him, sitting right there,—

Ed: —yes.

Brian: —wow.

Dave: —was pretty cool. It was almost as good as having Paul McCartney in the room, [Laughter] but not quite that good. My real hero in life.

Ed: I’m sure he’s not going to hear that. [Laughter]

Brian: Putting that duet together—that mash-up: Paul McCartney—

Ed: —Yancey-McCartney. Duets by Yancey-McCartney. [Laughter]

Brian: “That book changed my life.” That’s amazing.

Ann, anybody else from you?

Ann: I think my favorite interview was actually Ron and Nan Deal. You know, Ron leads our blended ministry, and when they shared their story of Nan’s addiction, I don’t think I’ve ever been in an interview that felt more holy. It also felt like all the credit went to Jesus. It was one of the most vulnerable, because Ron is well-known. He’s written a lot of books; he has an amazing ministry. For them to come on and say, “Hey, this happened,” not 20 years ago, but in the last few years. Whew! They had a lot of courage to bring that about.

Dave: Yes.

Ann: We could go on and on.

Brian: Oh, yes.

Ed: Even mentioning those two—I mean, Yancey tells the truth in the way he writes. He’s vulnerable about what’s behind the curtain.

Dave and Ann: Yes.

Ed: Ron and Nan are super vulnerable. they are just telling the truth about painful things. You guys are known for telling the truth. That’s what we just said: people feel like you’re being vulnerable and telling the truth. What motivates you to do that?

I mean, [if] you put yourself out there, you’re going to get hurt! People may reject you—we’ve been talking about that, just different ways that maybe people haven’t received that well. What motivates you to keep being those kind of people behind the mic?

Ann: I shared this the other day, but it brought back memories of going to seminary—when we went to seminary. He was the president, actually, of the seminary, Don Weaver, and his wife, Lois. They were great. They took us under their wings—we were only 22 and 25. They said, “We want you to not only be mentors, but we want to bring you into our family and our extended family, because we have a small group we have been meeting with for several years. They are people in the neighborhood, people in our community.”

Dave: I mean, it was a privilege. We didn’t know it, but Don and Lois picked one couple out of the school each year. We got to be that couple.

Ed: Wow, that’s cool.

Dave: Part of that was: “Come to our home every Thursday night. We’ll have dinner and be in our small group.”

Ann: You guys, you know, we’re naïve; we know nothing! We haven’t been Christians very long. We’re trying to do it right and perfectly. We walked in there: “This is great!” They pray. So, Don’s like, “Okay, everybody, let’s just kind of go around and tell us how your week was.” I’m [thinking], “This is cool. They’re going to talk about Jesus and what God’s showing them in the Bible.”

First person: “I smoked pot all week.” [Laughter] I’m [thinking], “Oh, my goodness; where are we?!” You guys, this is back in the ‘80s!

Brian: Right.

Dave: We are hitting each other under the table, like—

Ann: —like, “What’s happening?!”

And another couple is like, “We hate each other. Our marriage is horrible!” [Laughter] And so each—and then, there is girl who’s 21; she goes, “Well, I’m really struggling with my multiple personalities. You guys all know I was possessed.” [We’re thinking]: “Are we just like—?”

Ed: Okay, “Welcome to the group.”

Brian: Are you getting pranked right now?

Ann: Exactly!

Brian: “Is this a set-up?”

Ann: Yes!

Brian: What did you guys share?

Ann: We’re like, [embarrassed voice] “We yelled at each other.” [Laughter]

We got in the car, and I told Dave, “I don’t even know what just happened,” but it was the most appealing thing. I had never heard people be so honest, so raw. They just let us all in. I think, once you taste that vulnerability, you can never go back.

Ed: Yes.

Dave: At the same time, we journeyed with them for months—

Ann: —years.

Dave: Really, more than a year—maybe, two years—and you saw transformation.

Ed: Okay.

Ann: That’s it!

Dave: So, you saw real honesty, and you saw growth. That growth probably doesn’t happen when you’re in an environment where they feel safe to be honest.

We had never seen that in the church. I grew up with a single mom taking me to church. I wasn’t a believer. I sort of thought it was a joke. And then, when I graduated high school and went to college to play football, I literally said to my mom, “I’m never going to church again.” And I never did. I just saw church as perfect people who are fake and never share struggles.

Ed: Okay.

Dave: I never once, ever, met a person in church who ever said anything but, “Jesus is good,” “God is good,” “My marriage is…” It was all—and I knew this couldn’t be real.

Obviously, there’s a great turn to that story, because I came to Christ in college. I remember thinking, as we started a church, “This is going to be a safe community, where people are honest.” I always want two things to happen in a Dave Wilson sermon, and the same thing in a FamilyLife Today broadcast—two things: one is, I want somebody listening to [say], “Wow! They struggle with the same things we struggle with. It’s like they were in our family room this week. They had the same fight we had!”

That’s only the half of it, because that could be the end of it. The other half is, I also want them to [say], “They know the Holy Spirit, and the power of God and the resurrection, in a way I don’t think I know. They have this struggle, but they have victory.” I hope that happens every single program, every single sermon; both that they’re drawn—they connect—because they’re like you, but they are also drawn to the God that they may not know the way you do.

Ed: What is it about vulnerability that creates growth? Talk about that, because you guys have said that in a bunch of different ways. How does growth happen when people tell the truth with each other?

Dave: I think Jesus most meets us in our pain. I mean, we want victory; we want the good life and not to experience pain, but in pain is where we feel—actually, we feel two things, which is what Yancey is getting at: we feel disappointment, and He’s distant, and He’s silent, and He’s hidden; and yet, He’s also so present. We’re so needy in that moment that we are desperate, and we feel Him. I think the people who are listening to us are feeling that. They want both sides of that.

Brian: Even as you are saying that, I was just thinking of Paul’s phrase [Philippians 3:10], where he says to “… join Him in the fellowship of His sufferings.”

Ann: There it is.

Ed: That’s good.

Dave: Yes, Philippians 3.

Brian: Just think, that’s a weird combination of words.

Ed: Yes.

Brian: I’m going to fellowship, and not with just Jesus, but with other fellow believers in suffering.

Dave: And—in the same verse: “…in the power of His resurrection.”

Brian: “…the power of His resurrection.”

Dave: So, there’s both.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: I always [think]: “I want the power of the resurrection!” [Laughter]

Ed: Yes.

Dave: Who doesn’t want that? But we run away from fellowship of sufferings, but it’s both/and.

Ed: Some people today are all about authenticity and fellowship of suffering—

Ann: —yes.

Ed: —but they don’t necessarily turn to the cross to get the healing.

Brian and Dave: Right.

Ed: So, we do need both.

Ann, what were you going to say?

Ann: I was going to say, I’m a visual person. So, the way I see it is: if you want to get a suntan, you go out into the sun. But if you have a mask on your face, you might get sun on your face; but you have a mask on, [so] the sun can’t penetrate. The moment you take off the mask, the sun can shine in. It can bring growth; it can bring healing; it can bring a suntan. The sun is Jesus. When somebody takes off their mask in front of me—whew!—I’m like, “There you are.”

Ed: Wow.

Ann: I’ll tell you who took off their mask in front of [Him]: everybody took off their mask in front of Jesus. Why? Because He saw all of them, and He loved every piece of them.

Brian: Yes.

Ann: That’s compelling. It’s not that we just let people sit there and go down into the deep, dark pit of despair, but we give them the hope of the gospel.

Ed: Yes, that’s a good word picture.

Brian: It is. I know I’m going to preach that.

Ed: I like that. [Laughter]

Brian: I’m stealing that!

Ed: That mask!

Brian: I’m taking that. I’m going to use that at the Weekend to Remember this weekend in Pittsburgh.

Ed: Yes, I really like that. [Laughter] Can’t wait to use that, yes.

Dave: She is the visual queen. You’ve seen the tandem bike and all her things.

Brian: Oh, yes!

Ed: I love that.

Dave: The last thought on that is, you know, I think I’ve said this sometime this week; we’ve done quite a few—

Brian: —we’ve done so much.

Dave: Ann and I are sitting in this studio right now, as the hosts of FamilyLife Today, because of the most painful moment in our marriage. If that hadn’t been on the Art of Marriage^®—and it wouldn’t had been on there unless Bob Lepine said, “Hey, I know this story. Would you be willing to tell it?” Part of me is [thinking], “No! I don’t want to tell it. It’s a bad moment, and I was an idiot!”

Brian: Right.

Dave: “I’ll just keep that.” But because of that, God [says], “Watch this! I’m going to take that moment and make it your story that connects to all these other people, who sit there and say, ‘I’m the same way. I think our marriage is a 10, and it’s really a 2.”

Ed: Yes, yes.

Dave: And ‘How in the world can that couple be saying that when we’re…?’” So, yes; it’s the thing that connects people to people.

Brian: I know most people have probably heard that story, but for those who haven’t, it is the story about how, ten years into your marriage, Ann, you said, “I’ve lost my feelings for you.” It was that moment of—especially, Dave—“What do you do in that moment?” What did you feel? What did you do with that? Because I think my reaction—I would have such a reaction! I would want to react to that statement.

Ed: Get defensive.

Brian: Get defensive; get angry.

Ann: He had for two years. [Laughter]

Brian: He had for two years.

Ed: Okay.

Ann: Yes.

Dave: I was waiting for her to jump in. I knew she was going to.

Brian: So, you said that multiple times. It wasn’t just once.

Ann: But Brian, the way I said it was mean [during those two years].

Dave: Yes.

Ann: “Oh, you’re gone again? Seriously, do we even know who you are anymore? The kids don’t know who you are! I don’t.” Isn’t that so warm—

Ed: —and inviting?

Ann: —and inviting?

Brian: It makes me want to change. [Laughter]

Ed: Yes.

Brian: It pushes me to sanctification. [Laughter]

Ed: “Thank you, honey. May I have another?”

Brian: Yes.

Ann: [Sarcastically] Right.

Dave: Well, I mean, as you can imagine, I couldn’t hear it.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: I didn’t hear it.

Ann: Who would want to hear that?

Dave: I remember getting in our little car, as she’s yelling at me, walking out the driveway with kids in her arms, another one dragging on the floor—not on the floor—

Ed: —floor? [Laughter]

Brian: Wow! What does she do with her kids?! [Laughter]

Dave: But I can remember getting in the car, driving out of our subdivision, just screaming mad—so mad at her; so mad at my life—and I’m going to lead a Bible study. [Laughter]

Brian: Right.

Dave: Between that driveway and the meeting, I’ve got to get right with God. And then, I come home to this again, and here we are. I’m getting yelled at. So, that night, when she said it, it was a miracle, because it was the first time I think I really heard it. I didn’t get defensive.

Ann: And I didn’t say it in a mean way. I just spoke the truth.

Dave: It was—you could feel the finality in her voice. It was like, “I’ve said this. You haven’t heard it, but I’ve lost my feelings for you.” I could [tell] that she was done.

Ann: But I was also saying, “I’m done.I’m done.”

Dave: She was done.

Ed: What do you think happened that night that you were able to hear it?

Brian: Yes, why were you able to hear it?

Ed: Was something, circumstantially, going on with you or just—

Dave: I think it was a supernatural move of God, because I heard the voice of God. It was very loud and clear, not audible, but a Holy Spirit nudge of, “Repent.

Ed: Okay.

Dave: “This is not her problem. This is yours. And it isn’t even horizontal. This is you and Me.” It’s one of those moments where, as a man, you know, “This is true. I am not close to Jesus.” It’s almost like I’m lukewarm. It wasn’t that I had lost my salvation. I wasn’t in moral sin. It was just an apathetic: “I’m busy.” And it’s all God-work; it’s ministry.

Brian: Isn’t that interesting? Yes, and people can—I hope people are hearing: “Put whatever situation you want to put in there.”

Ann: Yes.

Brian: Anybody in Christian ministry—or whatever business, whatever job you have—can become monotonous and become mundane.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: So, just because you’re doing the Lord’s work doesn’t mean you’re in the Lord’s will.

Ed: Wow.

Dave: Right, right.

Brian: Or in the Lord’s favor. I mean, you’re in His favor, but you may not be favorable toward God.

Dave: Right.

Brian: But you just got to keep working and keep doing.

Dave: Yes, you guys probably know this: you can sort of fake it.

Brian: Yes.

Ann: Anybody can fake it.

Dave: You can fake the Christian walk, but you know what? You can’t in your marriage. It will eventually come out, and it came out.

The long and good part of the story is, it was about me and God. I knew, “If I get right with God, that’s step 1. Step 2 will be, He will help us do the horizontal part; get our marriage better.”

Ann: It’s interesting, Dave, as I think back on those days where you would get super defensive, I think that’s one of your greatest strengths now, in terms of—

Dave: —getting defensive?

Brian: Yes. [Laughter]

Ann: —of receiving. There’s a humbleness in you. If I say something to you, you might be mad when I say it, but you’ll think on it, you’ll pray about it, and you won’t say anything (which I wish I could be like that), and then, you’ll come back and talk about it.

When I’ve heard the boys come to you, as men, saying: “Dad, you really dropped the ball here,” or “Dad, you really hurt me here,” you are never defensive. Even when one of our sons told you our church is dead, and I’m like, “Oh, boy! This is going to be interesting,” [because] you started the church, you leaned in and you said, “Tell me more.” That is a great quality, man.

You might feel like you had failed on that ten-year anniversary, but you have grown so much.

Dave: Gee whiz, this is—I like this show.

Brian: This is great.

Dave: Can we just keep going? [Laughter]

Brian: Well, you just keep telling me more about that. When I think about—there are those moments that God allows us to build. He could have stopped you at any moment in your disobedience. He could have brought somebody into your life; He could have shaken you to the core; He could have done—but He let that build. Why? Because He knew there was a longer trajectory that story would take.

Ed: Interesting.

Brian: So, even allowing us to go against each other for so long; but then, to bring you back. And in that moment, you chose repentance rather than defensiveness.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: I just think of how many people are out there right now, thinking: “I might be in that moment right now. Maybe I’m in that moment with my spouse.”

Ed: “Maybe it’s time.”

Brian: “Maybe it’s time. Maybe it’s time.”

That moment not only changed the trajectory of your marriage, but because it was captured, and because you guys were open and honest enough to allow yourselves to be vulnerable, it seriously has touched millions of people. It’s been translated into, now, 17 languages, in the original Art of Marriage. I just say, thank you for allowing God to use that story in ways that you never imagined or thought.

Ed: Yes, and telling the truth.

Brian: You don’t think of that at the moment you’re apologizing. You’re [not] like, “Oh, I can’t wait for God to use this story.” [Laughter]

Dave: Yes, you bet!

Brian: You just want to get beyond the moment.

Ed: “Millions need this. Millions need to hear this story.” Yes, you’re not thinking that.

Brian: You’re not thinking that. You’re like, “How do [we] just come back together?”

Ed: “I’m a jerk. I don’t want to be a jerk anymore.”

Brian: That’s right.

Ann: Hey, guys! You’re good at this.

Brian: Well, if we’re good, we’d like to go another day. Do you want to go another day?

Ed: Let’s do it!

Ann: Okay.

Brian: Is it alright if we go one more day?

Ed: Let’s do one more.

Ann: Alright.

Brian: Are you open to that?

Dave: As long as you let me be in control.

Brian: No, no; because here’s what I want to ask, because I think this is important. [Laughter] I want to ask tomorrow—I want to start off, because it’s like you had that moment of not liking each other for a couple of years that you weren’t liking each other.

Ann: Yes, it took a while.

Brian: I’m curious to know if you’ve had any more similar things, where you have seasons of not liking each other. Because I think a lot of couples go through that: “How do we get out of not liking each other?”

Ed: That’s good.

Ann: Doesn’t every couple go through it?

Ed: I think so. [Laughter] I really do.

Dave: Shout out to Amy!

Brian: At least, Amy does.

Amy does. I don’t know about Ed. [Laughter]

Shelby: I’m Shelby Abbott. You’ve been listening to Dave and Ann Wilson with Brian Goins and Ed Uszynski on FamilyLife Today. I love this conversation. They’ve got such great banter there. Be sure to check out Brian Goin’s podcast, Married with Benefits. It will be found in the show notes on FamilyLifeToday.com.

Have you picked out what small group study your group will be using this upcoming spring? Or do you need a way to re-connect with your spouse or your couple friends? Are couples in your church asking you for help in their marriages? These are common questions. I’m excited to personally deliver the news to you that the all-new Art of Marriage is officially here.

That’s right! It features a diverse array of new couples and artists who, over the course of six different sessions, unpack six biblical words that describe God’s love for us and how each can be displayed through our messy, imperfect marriages. Yes, even yours.

So, whether you’re a newlywed, or you’ve been married for decades, FamilyLife’s Art of Marriage is your path to a stronger, more beautiful masterpiece of God’s handiwork. You can go to the show notes or ArtofMarriage.com to learn more and order your leader kit. We’re excited to share the all-new Art of Marriage with you.

Coming up tomorrow, we wanted more. They said they were going to give us more, so it’s going to happen. We’re going to explore the challenges in marriages and the power of non-sexual touch and honest communication with Brian Goins and Ed Uszynski with Dave and Ann Wilson tomorrow. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife^®, a Cru^® Ministry.

Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.

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