The Science Behind a Happy Marriage: Brian & Jen Goins

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FamilyLife Today® with Dave and Ann Wilson – Web Version Transcript

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The Science Behind a Happy Marriage

Guest:Brian & Jen Goins

From the series:The Science Behind a Happy Marriage (Day 1 of 2)

Air date:December 19, 2024

Voicemail: I’m driving in my car. This guy was on there talking about how to pray for your family, and I’m a prayer warrior. However, I say this with a lump in my throat. The weakest area I have is praying for my wife. So your book is timely. You can tell whoever’s cranking up the prayer machine there that your prayers are being answered, and I’m very thankful. Y’all are doing a great job. Keep it up. Okay, love you. Bye.

Dave:I mean, that guy is awesome. I know, and we love you too, man. It is awesome to hear that God is using this podcast to help families. And we know you count on these broadcasts to bring encouragement, wisdom, and sometimes a much-needed reminder that God loves you right where you are.

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Brian:We want to return evil for evil. That’s our natural inclinations. But the Lord is going, but there’s a better way if you just pause and go and just think for a second, “Is this really going to bring us back to unity if I choose to respond in kind?” Or do I need to step back and go, “Okay, how do I reframe this and actually believe that they have my best intentions at heart?” They just became a sinner in that; they were a sinner in that moment.

Dave:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Dave Wilson.

Ann: And I’m Ann Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

Dave:So I don’t think we’ve ever had this guest on FamilyLife Today together, have we? Have we ever had Brian and Jen Goins on FamilyLife Today? Have you guys ever been, just us four?

Brian: I don’t think we’ve ever had just us four.

Ann: You were with us.

Dave: You’ve done some panels and different things with the Art of Marriage.

Ann: Yes, but I’m not sure.

Dave: We are honored.

Jen: I’ve never been on with just the four of us.

Dave: There you go.

Ann: This is a special day.

Dave: You better get a cup of coffee and sit down.

Ann: Or get your workout going.

Dave: Yes, because this is going to be some of the best shows we’ve ever done. I’m just saying.

Brian:Wow.

Dave:We have good guests.

Brian:Do you feel the pressure? Do you feel the pressure right now?

Dave:Well, a lot of you know Brian, especially from Married With Benefits™, and you’re a legend at FamilyLife—

Brian: Right.

Dave: —and Jen as well. I mean, you guys have been FamilyLife Weekend to Remember speakers for how long?

Jen: Since 2007, so I think that makes us 18, around 18 years.

Dave: Wow! And you lead the speaker team.

Brian: We do.

Dave: You re-imagined the weekend and reimagined the Art of Marriage. I mean, you guys are just, you are legends.

Ann: —superstars.

Brian:Well, we haven’t been on nearly as long as you guys have been on.

Ann: That’s because we’re old as dirt. But the thing is—

Brian:You guys started speaking in college.

Dave: I think we did. We weren’t even married yet.

Ann: But the best part is we really love you guys and consider you friends so it’s really fun to have you with us.

Dave: Yeah. So we’re talking today about something you’ve been doing. Tell us about Married With Benefits and what you’ve been doing with Shaunti.

Brian:It’s really been fun because this season is really about the little things that make a huge difference. And it’s based upon a book that—

Ann: —in Marriage.

Brian: —in Marriage. It’s based upon a book that Jen got me hooked on. You love this book, and you love this research. And so it’s a book called The Surprising Secrets of Highly Happy Marriages. Just talk about why you loved it so much.

Jen: I just remember whenever we would start speaking for marriage conferences or want to add something new or kind of think outside the box a little bit, I’d always go to Shaunti’s books. I think they’re so good.

Ann: I do that too. It’s like a cheat sheet for marriage.

Jen: I know, they’re so helpful. They’re not super wordy or long, like this long thing that you have to read. They’re really quick chapters. And so I would go to this. I’d be like, “Man, if this is true, we need to be knowing this” because it doesn’t have to be super complicated.

Ann: That’s what I was going to say. It’s simple. We can all do it.

Dave: And research based.

Jen: Yes, and it’s research based so when she says she does all this research, we’ve talked with her about this and I’ve read some of her research practices and I’m thinking, “Yeah, she’s just not saying this after talking to a couple people, or kind of she thinks this, she knows how to do proper real research that I really respect. And she’s educated in that way and takes it very seriously. And so when I read her short chapters, I just basically copy what she says and “Hey guys, this is what Shaunti says,” and it’s based on research, and I love that.

And so I would always kind of bring these little tidbits. You know when you go to a marriage conference or you’re hear someone talking about marriage and you just like, “Okay, just kind of give me what I need to do. Maybe some of the why behind it, but just give me some tips.” And so that’s what I always felt. I came away from that book, The Surprising Secrets of Highly Happy Marriages gives you little encouragements, maybe some of the things you’re already doing and you’re like, “Ah, I’m doing it right,” or “Man, I could do that better and I would be more satisfied in my marriage and have a happy marriage.”

Brian:So every episode is a new secret, and so we just tackle each secret. And there’s 12 that are in the book, but her publisher wouldn’t—she actually had 13 that she did research on, but the publisher was like, “Nope, we’re cutting it off at 12; that’s all.” You know a little bit about this.

Ann: I didn’t know that she had 13.

Brian:Well, yeah, that she had 13.

Ann: It makes me want to know what that 13th was.

Brian: I know.

Dave: Publishers do do that.

Brian:Publishers do like to just say, “No, it’s going to be this long and that’s it.” And so we were able to include that as a bonus episode right at the end. So if you want to know what that extra secret is, but just some really good ones. You were on, you got to join me on a couple of them. Go to bed mad; you joined me on. I think you’re on that one.

Jen: Yes, I was.

Brian: Because we go to bed mad a lot and we found out that actually happy couples go to bed mad. And that goes against, you think that goes against the scripture when Paul is talking about, “Hey, don’t let the sun go down on your anger.” So does that mean stay up and fight? And so we unpack why that Paul probably has a little bit different meaning than what you think. So that was good.

Ann: We’ve already aired a couple of these on FamilyLife Today as well, besides your podcast. We’ve already aired some already.

Dave:Yeah. It’s funny, when this book came out, I don’t know what year, but I found it too. I love Shaunti’s stuff. I love her book For Women Only, which is understanding the inner lives of your man. I remember I read it before Ann, sort of checking her out. Like this woman, I’m literally running “Read this book, right now.”

Brian: I did the same thing.

Dave: This is totally me. And I mean, it’s just like you said, so good, so practical. But we did a series at our church on weekends called The Secrets of Highly Happy Couples. We did a marriage series.

Brian: And you unpacked this?

Dave: It was all from Shaunti.

Ann: We tried this from Shaunti.

Dave: We tried to get her and Jeff to come. They couldn’t do it and we’re like, we’re just going to do the series. And people were coming up every week, “This is some of the best stuff ever.” Like “Yeah, we came up with this.” No, it was all Shaunti’s stuff. So today we’re going to talk a little bit about something you’ve already talked to her about: Believe the best. So explain that concept that we’re actually going to listen to you talking to Shaunti about it and then we’re just going to react to it.

Brian:So this was really the foundational secret for the whole series. And it really is about a mindset shift in that you really need to, for the highly happy couples are those that believe that their spouse has the best intentions for them. So even when we’re getting in the midst of conflict, when we’re hurt in some way, the highly happy couples will go, “Okay, I know—” they’ll give the most generous excuse basically for why they got hurt.

And so they’ll say, “I’ll assume that my spouse didn’t really mean intend to hurt me this way, but it did hurt.” And so we don’t negate the ouch as you’ll hear Shaunti talk about, but it really is something of saying, “My perspective is that I’m going to believe that they actually still love me, care for me.” And that’s backed by science.

And so that’s the other thing that I like about all of these secrets is as Jen alluded to, is that science always catches up to scripture. What God says to be true in his word, often have these links back to what the science shows about us as human beings. And so you think about just the way that when we try to live harmonious with each other, to live in unity with one another, how do we do that?

Well, we do that with sinful people by saying, “Okay, I’m sure there might be some other reason behind why they did what they did.” At their core we do want to be together. And most every couple, in fact, the research even shows that 99 percent of couples, the spouses really do care for one another. They really do love each other. They really do want the best.

So it’s like Dave, when Ann hurts you, it’s not like she’s hurting you because “I really don’t like Dave.” It’s just there was in that moment, there was a frustration but at her core, she loves you. She wants to be with you. She’s not planning to leave you anytime soon.

Ann: I just want to fix him.

Brian: Right. You just want to change him.

Jen: That’s a whole nother show.

Brian: That’s a different show.

Ann: I know it is.

Dave: And it’s working really well.

Brian: So that’s what this one’s about. And Shaunti does a great job of just explaining some of the research and Jeff’s on for this one as well. And so you’ll hear him talk about a really funny experiment that I would’ve loved to have been a part of.

[Recorded message]

Shaunti: So basically what we discovered is that the happiest couples choose to believe the best of their spouse’s intentions towards them, even when they’re legitimately hurt, right? Everybody gets hurt. The issue is what we choose to believe about it because our natural human tendency—if Jeff does something that hurts my feelings—not that you do anything honey to hurt my feelings, but—

Brian:Everybody looks good from a distance on Zoom right now, but it’s like we know that at home—

Shaunti: We know that all of us hurt each other’s feelings. And here’s the natural thing that we all do naturally. We say and think to ourself, “If he hurts my feelings—” It’s kind of this ow. And there’s this subconscious feeling like, “He knew how that would make me feel and he said it anyway,” right? And what I’m believing if you translate that is “He doesn’t care about me.” That’s what that translates to.

Or a guy version of that might be like, “Ow, nothing I do is ever good enough for her.” You’re believing “She doesn’t appreciate me. She doesn’t care about me.” What we found with the happiest couples is they had the same ow. They had that same reaction and then they went, “No, no, I know he loves me. I know she appreciates me. So they must not have known how that would make me feel, or they wouldn’t have said it.” And they switch it not to believing the best of what the person did because it was a legitimate hurt, but to believe the best of their intentions towards them.

Brian: And is this just thinking wishfully like they probably did, or do they actually believe that?

Shaunti: So what we found is that this isn’t just wishful thinking because in the vast, vast majority of marriages, this is one of the most encouraging parts of this whole research project. Even in the most difficult relationships who are the closest to shaking apart, the vast majority of us deeply care about the other person. We deeply care about our spouse. But if you want a happy marriage, you have to let yourself believe that.

I mean, the numbers for this were absolutely staggering. When I was looking at the data amongst the highly happy couples, the percentage who know that their spouse kind of does care about them, even when it’s painful, the happiest couples that was 96 percent, the so-so couples that was only 59 percent. And yet the percentage who actually did care, the spouse, what the spouse actually said was almost a hundred percent. It was like 99.26 or something. So if you want a happy marriage, what you’re actually doing is you’re choosing to believe the truth rather than a lie.

Brian:Wow. And why is that significant, Jeff? You guys had a pretty intriguing study in this chapter in your book. Does that really make a difference when it comes down to it?

Jeff: Yeah. That’s fascinating, Brian, that you ask. I would say that one of the things that we hear often from people is, “Look, I can do this, but if my spouse won’t do this, then what’s the point? It takes two.” And in this particular circumstance, and with a lot of these, if just one of the members of the marriage, of the relationship, practices them, it has a profound impact.

So when we were doing the research, we found this study that was put together by a professor at the University of Maryland. And I have to say I love studies where they involve college students as part of the experiment because for 20 bucks they’ll subject themselves to pretty much anything.

Brian: Right.

Jeff: And in this—

Brian:You got to pay for that pizza.

Shaunti: Yes.

Jeff: In this particular study, they would have a subject, a student, who was seated in a chair, and then this student was hooked up to all of these different biometric measuring devices. So they would be measuring their respiration rate, their pulse rate, their blood pressure, a number of them, and that wasn’t all. They were also hooked up to this cable that was then run across the room, and it disappeared behind a partition. On the other side of the partition was a little device with a red button on it. And when the red button was depressed, it would send an electric shock through that cable to the student subject sitting in the chair, and then it would register in all of these biometric devices what was the impact of that shock on their bods.

Shaunti: How painful the shock was.

Brian:So just to be clear, the study is we’re going to shock some people. Would you want to be part of that?

Shaunti: Twenty bucks, man, twenty bucks.

Jeff: —ethical…part of college.

Brian:It’s college. It’s all right.

Jeff: It’s right. But here was the variable. The person sitting in the chair was told one of three things about whoever it was behind the partition pushing the button. In one instance, they were told that the person was pushing the button, knew it was going to administer a shock to the person on the other side of the partition, but they were also told that it would help that person win money. So the person getting shocked would win money.

Shaunti: So it was sort of a good intention, a good intention.

Jeff: In a second instance, they were told that the person behind the partition hit the button, but they didn’t mean to. It was on accident. And then in a third instance, they were told that the person knew that this button would administer a shock and thought it was kind of cool that they got to do this.

Brian:So more the masochistic type person?

Shaunti: Yes. There we go. Absolutely.

Jeff: So in all three instances, the shock level, whatever you want to call it, was exactly the same. in the case where they thought the person was doing it on purpose for no good reason, it hurt a lot, and it registered on all the devices as hurting a lot. In the case where they thought it was done on accident, it actually hurt less, and it registered less. And in the case where they thought the person was doing it for a benefit for them, it hurt significantly less than the other two.

The shock was exactly the same. The only thing that was different was the perception that the person had about the person administering the shock. So what Shaunti has been saying earlier is what I believe about her intentions, my spouse’s intentions, matters on what I feel as a result. The pain is there.

Brian:Pow is there, like Shaunti said, the pow is the same.

Jeff: But the magnitude of it, it depends entirely on what I believe about my spouse.

[Studio]

Dave:Well, I want that button.

Brian: For who, Dave?

Dave: I’d love to be on that side where I get to push it. Anyway, that is really interesting.

Ann: Fascinating.

Brian: It is fascinating, isn’t it?

Ann: Yes.

Brian:And I was thinking about each one of those. There are times in marriage where actually you do need to give a hurt for a benefit because I was thinking about that. It’s easy to kind of write those off and immediately go to the one, “This is just accidental.”

Ann: Well wait, what would be an example of that?

Brian: Proverbs 27:6 talks about how “Faithful are the wounds of a friend.” And there are times where we do need to wound each other for the benefit. I remember early in marriage, Jen would say, “You never can say you’re sorry.” To which I said, “Well, we learned at the Weekend to Remember that you should never say always and never.”

Dave: Never ever.

Brian: Never ever say that. So whatever you said right there doesn’t really matter. But she’s trying to help me actually become more like Christ in that moment. And so there are shocks that are for the best of our intentions, but most of us, it’s like we’re talking about the ones that we get hurt on a regular basis from each other, whether it’s saying something short, whether it’s just being irritated, whatever it might be and our mind will go, “Well, they said that because they don’t care about me.” “They did that because they don’t really like me in that moment.”

Ann: Jen, what’s your first reaction from hearing that?

Jen: I think of it as a mindset change; that you really have to, I’ve heard you talk about this, Ann. When we use your mind to control your actions and your heart and to control your feelings. And when you are thinking, “If Brian disappoints me somehow—he’s hurt my feelings or he misses a date or just doesn’t live up to my expectations—if my thoughts go a certain way, “He doesn’t love me; he doesn’t care,” that’s negative. That is negative towards him. It puts me in a bad mood. It puts me in a wrong place instead of “I want to believe the best. I want to believe the best about him.”

So to me, it’s like the first thing I think of is I want to control my mind. I want to do a good job of thinking the best about him too, as far as I know that he cares about me. Like Shaunti said, and most of our relationships that we have, our spouse does really care about us. It’s just figuring out how to think of best about them because they’re always going to disappoint us and there’s always going to be mistakes made.

Dave:One of the things that struck me, and that’s the first time I’ve heard the clip, not that I don’t listen to you guys all the time—

Brian:I was going to say, wait, why aren’t you listening to this every day.

Dave: Just like you listen to us all the time, I’m sure. It was something that is a reality of all of life and she just said it and moved on. I don’t think we appreciate it, especially before marriage but then after marriage. She made this statement, “Everyone gets hurt.” Boom. That is something I don’t think, especially as we walk into marriage, we expect at the level that it actually happens. I mean, I do weddings. You’ve done weddings. As the officiate of a wedding you want to tell them today, “Hey, I just want to give you a heads up,” but you can’t because you’re going to ruin their day. So everybody that you’re looking at sitting out there is just snickering a little bit; “Yeah, wait till they find out how hard it’s going to be.”

Jen: And then it’s like, what do you do after you get hurt?

Dave: Yeah. And that’s—

Jen: What are you going to believe about it?

Dave: That’s exactly it. It’s like that’s where Shaunti says you have one of two choices. Believe the best, believe the worst. And I think naturally, at least for our marriage, it often was believed the worst.

Ann: Oh, I did for sure.

Dave: I’m at work and a meeting goes long and I’m supposed to be home at whatever time and I’m 30 minutes late or even 20 minutes late or an hour late. I walk in the door. For many years it was she’s mad at me because I chose, and it’s believed the worst. I do the same thing. Rather than going, “I’m guessing something came up. I know you love me. I know you wanted to be here on time, but you’re not.” I’m believing the best. It was so easy to believe the worst.

Ann: But when it happened over and over and over, you come to the conclusion, “Well, he really doesn’t care.”

Brian:I think that’s the biggest difference is just when you think about the science of it, and we’re really looking at—what I loved about this whole series is that we’re trying to learn from those that were doing it really well. It’s like I know you had plenty of football players on your posters on their wall about who you wanted to be like. Who were

Dave:Roger Staubach baby.

Brian:Yeah. You were going to throw just like Roger, I was going to play basketball just like Michael Jordan. And that was the poster that I had on my wall. And so I didn’t go, no offense, Dave. I know you like to play basketball, but I didn’t go watch Dave Wilson’s game film about how to play basketball. I knew you could shoot decently.

Dave:You should have. You would’ve been encouraged.

Brian:No.

Dave:You’d be “I’m better than that.”

Brian:That’s right. I’m a lot better than that. No, you don’t go to learn from the best. You don’t go watch mediocre people. You go watch the best. And so what was cool about these couples is there’s actually couples that do this, and there was a lot of couples that did this. And so what did they do in that moment? And I like what she, and there’s a quote in her book where she says, “We must choose to believe it even if we don’t feel it.”

So it is possible. I think that’s the thing that really encouraged me. It’s actually possible in that moment where you feel the shock, the natural response is to want to shock back. Right? It’s exactly what it says in scripture. It says, we want to return evil for evil. That’s our natural inclinations. But the Lord is going, but there’s a better way if you just pause and go and just think for a second, “Is this really going to bring us back to unity if I choose to respond in kind?” Or do I need to step back and go, “Okay, how do I reframe this and actually believe that they have my best intentions at heart?” They just became a sinner in that; they were a sinner in that moment.

It’s not right that Dave never called you when he was running late. It’s not right that it became a pattern. He needed to change that, but how do I approach him in such a way that he actually wants to change? That’s the difference.

Dave:I mean, one of you just mentioned it, one of the, I think, greatest truths that we teach at this Weekend to Remember that was in there before you guys became speakers and you kept it in a little different form, but it’s still in there: Insult for insult, blessing for insult.

And it’s out of 1 Peter, but it’s just what you said, Brian. It’s interesting. Shaunti said in that clip that the highly happy couples have the same hurt. And she used the word, they switch it instead of believing the worst, they switch it. And it’s like, wow. So instead of insulting back, which is what we tend to do, it’s sort of, I think, sinful, natural, DNA, human DNA. It’s like, “You hurt me. I’ll hurt you either in word or deed,” but it’s like the science says no. If you flip it, you switch it and say, “I’m going to believe the best;” that’s life changing.

Jen: Ann, let’s go back. I want to go back to what you were saying, “If it happens over and over and over again.” I’m sure there’s listeners that feel that, and this is just open discussion because I’m not really sure I know the answer. What would be a way maybe to confront that? Because Shaunti is very clear, and I think we would be very clear that we don’t want to excuse bad behavior that if a woman or a man is over and over again being disappointed or feeling unloved, that—

Dave:Or even if there’s abuse.

Jen: If there’s abuse, that you just let that go and “You got to think the best.” We don’t want to do that. So what are some ways that maybe you could have spoken to Dave, or I could speak to Brian or vice versa, obviously using that mindset.

Ann: I think that’s a great question. My first thought, and I think this can go to any of us, is to be aware of it, to be aware of where our thoughts are going because I wasn’t aware of it for years. I think we just naturally tend to go wherever our thought leads us, and we just go down that path. And so to capture it, as we talked about before, take every thought captive to capture it and even to be aware of it could be our very first step.

For even you as a listener to think, okay, you will be offended by someone today. You will be offended by your spouse. So to think right when it happens, “Where do I go with that? Where does my thought go naturally?” Then you have a chance to shift it. And we’re going to talk about that a lot more in our next episode. How do we practically live this out because it’s so difficult?

Dave:And I’ll say before we end, Jen, because I was the guy always hurting her, and her shift, and we can talk about this specifically tomorrow, there’s a lot of different shifts. But for Ann, I literally saw her go from I walk in the door, let’s say I’m late, supposed to be home at this time, get home late. And this happened a lot, not just one time a week, several times so it’s a pattern. The shift was I’d walk in the door, and I’d get yelled at like, “You got to be kidding me. You’re supposed to be.” And again, I’m not.

Ann: Or I would just be cold and distant.

Dave:Yeah, it would be instant, and I knew it before I pulled into driveway. It’s coming and I feel bad because I wanted to be home on time. And the shift was, maybe we talk about that tomorrow.

Brian:I look forward to that shift, but I want to make sure that we hit this. There is a distinction between patterns, sinful patterns and things that we do where we’re not responding kind to our spouse, between that and abuse. I think what I appreciate about Shaunti’s research is that she really is researching the bulk of couples. And so for most couples, we’re talking about hurt feelings. It’s when we’re in a moment, we feel hurt, our ego is bruised, we feel like we’re being taken advantage of in a small way, we feel slighted. There’s a difference between that and abuse.

And so if the pattern is abuse, whether it’s emotional, spiritual, sexual, physical, this isn’t one of those moments where you go, “Ah, I bet they’ll have a better day tomorrow.” If you’re in that situation, that’s where it’s really helpful to get help. I think we would say at FamilyLife, “Bring a counselor in.” Have somebody else that can help walk you through that to really identify and go, “No, that’s not a good pattern. That’s a pattern that needs to be confronted.”

Dave:And if it’s physical, even get safe, for you and your kids.

Brian:But what we’re talking about is what happens when we get hurt by our spouse from our feeling, like, our feelings get hurt. How do I then in that moment, how am I going to view my spouse?

Ann: This is FamilyLife Today, and we’re Ann and Dave Wilson, and we’ve been talking with our good friends, Brian and Jen Goins about the FamilyLife podcast that Brian does called Married With Benefits. And you can find that wherever you get your podcasts.

Dave:And let us just say, this is a critical time, and I mean that. It’s critical time to donate financially to FamilyLife. We’ve had some friends that have been very generous to give us a match program up to $3 million. So anything you give is going to be doubled up to 3 million.

Ann: It’s really amazing.

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Ann: Again, you can give online at FamilyLifeToday.com or you can give us a call at 800-358-6329. Or you can mail us your donation at FamilyLife, 100 Lake Hart Drive, Orlando, Florida 32832.

Dave:Now, coming up tomorrow, we’ve got Brian and Jen Goins back again talking about Happy Couples Believe the Best, and this is good stuff. That’s coming up tomorrow.

Ann: We’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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