FamilyLife Today® Podcast

When My Family Is Toxic

with Gary Thomas | February 17, 2021
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When the people in your family hurt you the most, what do you do? Gary Thomas, author of "When to Walk Away," explains that if a family member enjoys tearing you down and destroying the relationship, then it may be time to walk away. You can't fix your family of origin, but you do have the perfect opportunity to build a new legacy and a new family. We need to protect our family members from evil, and if that means limiting our time with those who are destructive, even at holidays, then so be it. Don't let a toxic person distract you from what God has called you to do.

  • Show Notes

  • About the Host

  • About the Guest

  • Dave and Ann Wilson

    Dave and Ann Wilson are hosts of FamilyLife Today®, FamilyLife’s nationally-syndicated radio program. Dave and Ann have been married for more than 38 years and have spent the last 33 teaching and mentoring couples and parents across the country. They have been featured speakers at FamilyLife’s Weekend to Remember® marriage getaway since 1993 and have also hosted their own marriage conferences across the country. Cofounders of Kensington Church—a national, multicampus church that hosts more than 14,000 visitors every weekend—the Wilsons are the creative force behind DVD teaching series Rock Your Marriage and The Survival Guide To Parenting, as well as authors of the recently released book Vertical Marriage (Zondervan, 2019). Dave is a graduate of the International School of Theology, where he received a Master of Divinity degree. A Ball State University Hall of Fame quarterback, Dave served the Detroit Lions as chaplain for 33 years. Ann attended the University of Kentucky. She has been active alongside Dave in ministry as a speaker, writer, small-group leader, and mentor to countless wives of professional athletes. The Wilsons live in the Detroit area. They have three grown sons, CJ, Austin, and Cody, three daughters-in-law, and a growing number of grandchildren.

When the people in your family hurt you the most, what do you do? Gary Thomas explains that if a family member enjoys tearing you down and destroying the relationship, then it may be time to walk away.

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When My Family Is Toxic

With Gary Thomas
February 17, 2021
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Bob: If you came from a dysfunctional family of origin, and now you’re getting married, and you don’t want those dysfunctions to follow you into your new marriage/your new family, what do you do? Gary Thomas says what you don’t do is try to go back, at the beginning of your new marriage, and fix what was broken in the family you grew up in.

Gary: I see this half the time, where suddenly they have this great marriage; they are starting a new family: “Okay; now, it’s time for me to go fix my childhood home.” I’m like, “That is wasting your time. You can’t have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy person. You need to walk away from what’s destroying you, so you’re building up a strong marriage. You have a chance to build a new family/a new relationship; a new marriage takes a lot of time. Don’t go back and try to parent your parents. Thank God that He has brought you to a new place, where you can be involved in a healthy relationship.”

Bob: This is FamilyLife Today for Wednesday, February 17th. Our hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson; I'm Bob Lepine. You can find us online at There may be a time in the future when you need to address relationship issues from your family of origin; but at the start of a new marriage, it’s time to focus on leaving and cleaving. We’re going to talk more about that today with Gary Thomas as we talk about toxic relationships. Stay with us.

Bob: And welcome to FamilyLife Today. Thanks for joining us. You know, it occurs to me that the reason that we have a radio program is because relationships are hard. [Laughter] I mean, let’s just acknowledge—

Ann: It’s true.

Bob: —“If relationships were easy, no one would be tuning in and listening to FamilyLife Today.”

Dave: They wouldn’t need any help!

Bob: But relationships are hard; because any time you are in a relationship, it’s two sinful people. Our sinful tendencies manifest themselves; and it makes what we long for—which is love—it causes it to go sideways because of our sin. Sometimes, that gets extreme; and that’s what we’re talking about this week as we talk about toxic relationships.

We’ve got Gary Thomas joining us, again, this week. Gary, welcome back.

Gary: Thank you.

Bob: Gary is an author/a speaker. He is on the pastoral staff at Second Baptist Church in Houston. He is the writer-in-residence there. He’s the author of books that really have been widely influential in the church—the books: Sacred Marriage, Sacred Parenting, Sacred Influence, and now this book, When to Walk Away. Really, a book—I started this week by saying, “Yes; we’re going to have Gary on whatever book he writes,”—but this is the least Gary Thomas book you’ve written; don’t you think?

Gary: It is. I would have never believed it, and it was difficult for me to put it down—there were some truths in here that, honestly, are painful—but I think necessary.

Dave: I’ve got to tell you—when I picked it up, I thought the same thing—that: “This is Gary Thomas?!” Then I started reading, and I couldn’t put it down.

Ann: Oh, I know.

Dave: You are hitting on something so important. It was a journey to go through; it was really very, very good.

Bob: It’s one thing—if we’ve got a friend, who we just look at and go: “This relationship is draining me,” and “I need to put some boundaries around it. I need to protect that,”—but when those relationships are blood/when we’re talking about our parents,—

Ann: Yes.

Bob: —or when we’re talking about siblings, or when we’re talking about—

Ann: —children—

Bob: Yes!

Ann: —then it gets real.

Bob: Now, all of a sudden: “What do we do with that?”

I know, as you got into these chapters in the later part of your book, you were walking into a minefield. You knew you were walking into a minefield; didn’t you? [Laughter]

Gary: I certainly did.

Ann: Well, Gary, one of the chapters is about toxic parents. One of the Ten Commandments is to honor your father and mother. Then you start out saying, “How do we honor our toxic parents?” That is really difficult, because God’s calling us to honor them; but what if they are toxic? What does a toxic parent look like? Give us some examples.


Gary: If we go back to what we said a couple of days ago, if they are overly controlling, they are certainly acting in a toxic way. We talked yesterday about the difference between acting in a toxic way and actually being toxic, so you’re trying to figure that out.

If they have a murderous spirit, where they are murdering your plans; they are murdering your joy; they are murdering sense of security; or murdering your independence, frankly; or if they love to hate—if they enjoy tearing you down, if they enjoy cutting your feet out from under you, if they enjoy destroying your relationships—that’s a situation, where you realize, “This relationship isn’t healthy for me.”

I’ve got to tell you—I’ve talked, so often, with couples, where I just—one of my favorite things/I love doing premarital counseling when I see this woman, who came out of a really dysfunctional home, and she chooses a great guy; because you know, sometimes, when you come out of a dysfunctional home—

Dave: Right.

Gary: —you marry a guy, who is sort of like your dad—but Jesus has redeemed him; He has restored him; He’s renewed him. They have this great marriage.

And then I see this half the time, where suddenly they have this great marriage; they are starting a new family: “Okay; now, it’s time for me to go fix my childhood home.” I’m like, “That is wasting your time. You can’t have a healthy relationship with an unhealthy person. You need to walk away from what’s destroying you, so you’re building up a strong marriage. You have a chance to build a new family/a new relationship; a new marriage takes a lot of time.”

Lisa and I—the first year of our marriage was the most difficult year of marriage. Sounds like, from Vertical Marriage, that was your—

Ann: It was.


Gary: —most difficult year. Don’t go back and try to parent your parents. Thank God that He has brought you to a new place, where you can be involved in a healthy relationship.

Bob: Do you just cut yourself off from your dysfunctional family and your parents, who may exhibit toxic behavior?


Gary: Let me give two examples. There is one, where a woman had an older sister, who had made some really bad choices in life: was a single mom, had a baby. The younger sister had done so much right: she’d gone to an Ivy League school; she was starting a business; she was following the Lord. It was exciting—the doors that God opened up for her—it’s like she was a female Joseph; everything she did was being blessed.

Well, because she was now in the same city as her older sister, she would get these emergency babysitting calls: “You’ve got to watch your niece.” Because she owned the business, she was sort of able to do that; but she resented it. It was getting in the way of starting this off, because it takes a lot of energy. Thankfully, God brought her a great mentor, who just said to her: “Look, neither your mom nor your sister know what it takes to succeed at this level. You are actually undercutting your ability to bless so many people with this new effort you have by doing these emergency babysitting calls.”

She felt guilty when she looked at it through the lens of relationship; because the older sister would say: “You’re a Christian. Aren’t Christians supposed to help those in need?” Her mom would say: “You’ve got to help her. She doesn’t have the advantages that you have had.” Of course, the mentor could tell her: “You both grew up in the same home. She made some choices; this isn’t about advantages.”

But when she = at her family dynamics through the sense of mission: “God has called me to do an important work in this world. I need to invest in reliable people,”—the people in her work—“and that I am actually hurting more people by doing this really childcare that isn’t appropriate at this time.” Now, she had a lens to say, “It was selfish for her to say, ‘Yes,’ to her sister and her mom.”

In that situation, I believe that her mom was acting in a toxic manner; but her mom wasn’t toxic. She didn’t cut off the relationship there. Now, they weren’t happy with her; but she has maintained that relationship.

Toxic—where you need to walk away—would be another couple, where the husband was married to a solid Christian woman; but his mom was either passive aggressive or not so passive aggressive and would just punish his wife. She couldn’t do anything right: she wasn’t parenting right; she didn’t cook right; she didn’t love her husband well enough—it just drained her.

She just said to him, early in December: “Honey, I’m/I just can’t even bear the thought of spending Christmas with your mom this year.” She goes: “It takes me months to [recover]. You know it’s been a difficult fall,”—they had an issue with one of their kids—she goes, “I just don’t know if I can do it.” This guy/he knew that his mom preached the gospel of family above all else, and not being there for Christmas would be an act of war.

Ann: There would be a backlash.


Gary: But he did the right thing. He realized, for that holiday, they needed to walk away. His wife needed to know, “Honey, it’s legitimate.” It’s not like she was being hyper-sensitive; he knew this was going on. It wasn’t his wife being too sensitive; it was his mom being toxic toward his wife.

Here is what I say to couples in this situation—because he said: “Gary, how can I do this? I’m supposed to honor my father and mother,”—I said, “You honor your mom by acting as if she’s healthy. If my son called me and said, ‘Dad, for the sake of my marriage, we just can’t spend Christmas with you,’ I’d be devastated; but I hope I would say: ‘Son, I’m proud of you. You’re a husband first. You’re putting your wife first. You’re doing what you’re supposed to do. You’re being a good husband. Good for you. We’ll miss you; but I’m proud of you.’”

That’s what I think a healthy parent would say. The fact that she didn’t respond that way, in any remote way, I think, proves that she was acting in a toxic way. For that holiday, they had to walk away.

I tell younger couples—I speak with the sentimentality of an empty-nester: “It’s shocking how few Christmases you have when the kids are young. Then, when they get older—and they start to go away, or they are on trips, or then they are bringing in boyfriends or girlfriends or now, spouses or whatnot—it’s very few. To sacrifice the wonder of a holiday with kids in a healthy situation, to appease a toxic parent, I think it’s a poor life choice. It’s not your fault; you’re walking away from toxicity—not out of meanness/not out of disrespect—but out of wanting to give your kids a healthy and, even, happy childhood.”

Dave: I can’t imagine. I mean, Gary, I know NFL players that I worked with for

33 seasons, who could not do what you are saying right there.

Ann: —in terms of saying, “No,” to their family.

Dave: “There is no way I can call my mom and say, ‘I’m not coming to Christmas.’ It isn’t going to happen. I just can’t do that,”—you know?—“I’m just going to endure.”

I know counselors, who would say to that person: “Oh, just fake it. Just go there for a couple days. Fake it to make it and move on”; but you’re saying, “You’ve got to make a hard choice.”

Gary: I think we need to protect our family members from evil. When our kids were growing up, we talked a lot about Jesus; and I am thankful for that. I wish we had talked more about evil—and how to deal with evil and evil people that might prey—you can overdo it.

Dave: Yes.

Gary: You should emphasize Jesus ten times; but to not mention evil at all is to leave people ill-equipped. Jesus said many times: “Watch out,” “Be on your guard.” I mean, He told His disciples: “I’m the way, the truth, and the life. These are liars, murderers, and thieves.” We need to, I think, model and speak the reality of evil in a fallen world.

Bob: We speak at the Weekend to Remember® marriage getaways about God’s plan for marriage. What’s step one in God’s plan for marriage?—“For this cause—

Dave: —“leave.”

Bob: —“you will leave father and mother, and you will form a new priority relationship.” When another person is not letting you leave and cleave, they are attacking your marriage relationship. They are doing harm to what God has said: “This needs to be the new priority relationship.” That’s where husbands and wives need to say—and I’ll just say moms and dads need to say—“That ought to be the priority.” As you said, the healthy parent ought to say: “You’re making your marriage a priority. Good for you.”

Dave: Right.


Bob: If you can’t say that, as a parent, you’re the problem.

Ann: Yes; and yet, to come and say: “Hey, I just heard this radio broadcast. I’ve discovered, after listening to it, that your mother is evil. We’re not going to go to Christmas this year,”—help us to know: “How do we say that if we feel that about our spouse’s parents?” That’s kind of tricky.

Gary: Well, here is the thing—I think you can recognize whether your spouse is up for it/where we believe God is calling us to this as a mission. But it’s sort of like, if you are compromised/if your immune system is compromised, you don’t go walk into a room of sick people. It is an art, where you’re figuring out: “Okay; [is] my spouse—do I need to protect my spouse? Is this something we can do as an outreach?” But then, you’re also bringing in your kids.

Another circumstance is where a guy—he had an abusive dad and an abusive mom—she was verbally abusive; his dad was physically abusive. He became a Christian; and they ridiculed him: “Yes; we’ll see what happens when you’re in high school,” “We’ll see what happens when you’re in college.” Then they had kids, and his parents realized what they had missed; and they thought they would get a do-over with their grandkids.

Now, his dad was still drinking too much; his mom was still talking the same way/in the same caustic way. The question came: “When are the grandkids going to spend the weekend with us?” He said: “They are not. They will not be at your house without us.” They’ll pulled out the card that toxic people use against Christians: “You haven’t forgiven us. The Bible says you’re supposed to forgive. You haven’t forgiven us; have you? Otherwise, you’d let us watch the kids.” They didn’t care if he was acting like a Christian; they were trying to use Scripture to control him: “We want the kids,” and he knew it wasn’t safe.

He knew that he couldn’t guarantee they wouldn’t be exposed to something harmful or treated in a harmful way. It wasn’t disrespectful to his parents. He just said: “No; they are not spending the night. You know what? If you go behind our back, and you try to manipulate the kids into spending time with you, we won’t even be here with them; so you’re going to respect our authority.”

I think, in some ways, that’s the most loving thing to do to a toxic person. Because when you call them out on their toxicity, you may be the first person that says: “There is a price for the way that you’ve become. I’m not going to be manipulated.” Jesus did that; Jesus was so loving to the repentant, but He didn’t play games with the non-repentant.

Bob: I can imagine somebody standing up to a parent and saying, “We’re going to put some boundaries here.”

I’m turning the table now and thinking: “What about the parent, who says, ‘We’re having everybody home for Christmas; but the one child in our family, who has been manifesting toxic behavior, doesn’t get to come and join the family for Christmas?’” It now, all of a sudden, feels really hard, as a parent, to say, “I’m going to put boundaries around a child, who is toxic in the rest of the…” because, as parents, we’re supposed to be the ones who can fix that and make that all better.

Gary: You know Jack Deere?

Bob: Yes.

Gary: He mentioned this in his life, where he had a son, who is now deceased, was into drugs. He was toxic beyond his addiction—it wasn’t just addiction—and he had given him chance after chance. Finally, this last chance, he brought him back. He was acting in such a toxic way that Jack—they were on a trip—the younger daughter hid herself in the bathroom and locked the door. He [Jack] realized: “Okay; here is the thing. You are in rehab today, or you’re out on the street; and everything is done.”

The words he said are so severe for a parent, but they are necessary words. They are words of love. He said: “I can’t save you from yourself, but I can protect others from you,”—and pretty much—“that’s what you have forced me to do.” I can’t even imagine having to say that to a kid, but it’s what you have to say. It’s the most loving thing you can say; because ultimately, you are confronting them as Jesus did: “You are destroying yourself. This is not an acceptable way to behave. I’m not going to cooperate with it. I’m not going to enable it. I’m saying, ‘This stops.’”

In the end, we’re doing what Jesus did: “Take up your cross and follow Me.” There was a stunning example to me one time where/remember when Jesus sent the pigs off a cliff?

Bob: Yes.

Gary: The pig farmers—and Jesus cast demon[s] out of a man, sends them in the pigs; they run off the =cliff.

What would any of us pay for a weekend ticket to hear Jesus in concert?—we could see Him; we could hear Him; we watch real miracles, not fake miracles;  right?

Bob: Yes.

Gary: For those of us that love Jesus, we’re thinking, “A weekend with Jesus—‘Yes, empty the 401K,’ ‘Sell my…’”—whatever it is. These people had Jesus in the flesh, and what did they say to Him?—“Please leave.”

The very next verse, Matthew 9:1, Jesus got into a boat and sailed away—He didn’t walk away; He sailed away—but He left. He didn’t say, “Oh, come on…” That’s where I think we have to be as parents; I think it’s where we have to be as children; and sometimes, as spouses, and friends, and workers in the kingdom. That, at times, people will say, “Please leave.” We’re not controlling in return; we say, “Okay.”

Bob: Let’s come back to what’s at the heart of your thesis: “Why do we make the choice to walk away?”

Gary: The reason I make the choice to walk away is because my life is set up on seeking, first, the kingdom of God and His righteousness and finding reliable people who I can invest in—it’s Matthew 6:33; 2 Timothy 2:2—it’s to have the positive life of offense. It’s not because I’m worried about being drained or being disturbed; I live to be drained and disturbed in kingdom work.

What I don’t want to do is have unfruitful work. I don’t want to try to plant flowers on stone. [Laughter] I want to go to the plowed fields that God has set up. The four words that have guided me so often in ministry: “No conviction; no counsel.” If I don’t think there is spiritual conviction there/if I don’t think the heart is prepared, I’m not wasting my time.

Bob: That’s pearls before swine; right?

Gary: That is.

Bob: Yes.

Gary: But it’s that focus: “I believe this is urgent work. It’s a good work, bringing the kingdom of Jesus Christ—His light, His love, His Lordship, His authority, His influence—is so important. People will oppose it; people will hate it; people will resist it. My job is to have that extra-sensitive x-ray radar to find those that are reliable/that will receive it, and to pour generously into them so that the kingdom work will go on, from generation to generation, until Christ returns.

Dave: I actually read this line in your book out loud to my wife. I mean, it’s just what you just said; but you said it so well—you said: “If you are in Christ, you aren’t just saved; you’re enlisted. You have been called to an important work, and there is no time to lose.” It struck me again: “We forget that. It isn’t just this little, ‘I’m a follower’; I’m enlisted/I signed up; I’ve got a job to do. I can’t waste a minute, and I’m not going to allow somebody to get me off course.” It just inspired me as I read that. I’m like, “Man, this makes sense. There are times that you have to walk away to do the greater good.”

Gary: When I was a much younger dad and husband, I worked with a toxic guy. What I regret most about that season—I would come home; and I would be thinking about weird stuff, trying to make sense of weird stuff, trying to defend myself against weird stuff. I look at how young my kids were; and I would go back to me, as a father and a husband, now: “Gary, leave it at the office. Walk away mentally. Find out about your kids’ day. Love on your kids. Share with your kids. Find out what your wife is thinking. You can’t fix a toxic person; you shouldn’t fret over a toxic person. Invest in the healthy relationships. Invest in the God-ordained relationships. When a relationship is distracting you from what God has called you to do, learn when to walk away.”

Ann: So good.

Bob: This is where you need wisdom; you need godly counsel; you need prayer. These are not decisions that you make casually, and you don’t make them based on self-interest. You make them based on kingdom-interest.

Gary, that’s what’s at the heart of your book. I’m grateful you wrote a non-Gary Thomas book like this—[Laughter]

Ann: Me too.

Bob: —and gave us a lot to think about, and a lot to pray about, and a lot to help guide our relationships, and to promote healthy relationships, and to ask ourselves, “Are there ways that I’m being toxic or I’m draining other people?” I think that’s a good diagnostic question for any of us. Gary, thanks for being on FamilyLife Today.

Gary: Thank you so much. This place is a home away from home. I’m so grateful for the ministry of FamilyLife Today.

Bob: Well, we’re grateful for you and grateful for the courage it took to write this book. In fact, we want to make the book available this week for FamilyLife Today listeners. Any of our listeners, who would like to get a copy of your book, When to Walk Away, it’s available when you make a donation to support the ongoing work of FamilyLife Today. Your donations are the lifeblood of this ministry. We could not do what we’re doing—through this daily radio program, through our resources, our events, everything we’ve got available on our website at—all of that happens because listeners, like you, make it happen when you donate.

If FamilyLife Today has been an encouragement to you/if it has been used by God in your life—and you’d like to help make it available for other couples/other individuals, who need the practical biblical help and hope that we are providing each day—you can do that as you make a donation today and when you request your copy of Gary’s book, When to Walk Away. You can donate online; our website is; or you can call 1-800-FL-TODAY to donate.

Again, the website, Be sure to request your copy of Gary’s book when you donate, or call 1-800-358-6329; that’s 1-800-“F” as in family, “L” as in life, and then the word, “TODAY.” Just say, “I’d like to make a donation to support FamilyLife Today; and I’d like a copy of Gary Thomas’s book, When to Walk Away.” Thanks, in advance, for your support. We really do appreciate it.

Now, tomorrow, we want to talk about just how vital/how important it is for us to be people who are grateful—how important gratitude/thankfulness is in our lives—and how critical it is that we teach our kids to be grateful/thankful boys and girls. Sam Crabtree’s going to join us tomorrow to help us think through that. I hope you can be here with us as well.

I want to thank our engineer today, Keith Lynch. We got some extra help from Bruce Goff today, along with our entire broadcast production team. On behalf of our hosts, Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Bob Lepine. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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