Discovering Spiritual Wellness: Debra Fileta

Episode Transcript

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Discovering Spiritual Wellness

Guest:Debra Fileta

From the series:The Art of Soul Care (Day 2 of 3)

Air date:January 2, 2025

Debra:I think the people who are the most susceptible are the ones that are the most empty. When I look at even addictions that come up, this is empty. People who are trying to fill up with all of these unhealthy things, empty things, can’t fill empty people.

Ann:Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Ann Wilson.

Dave:And I’m Dave Wilson. And you can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com. This is FamilyLife Today.

So I was thinking, “Here’s a question I don’t often ask myself.” I bet you ask more. How’s my soul doing? I often ask, how’s my body? How I look in the mirror if I worked out today. I often don’t ask that same question about my soul. Is that a question we should ask?

Ann:I don’t think I’m asking that question as much as I’m analyzing it because I can feel when my soul isn’t doing well. I don’t think I used to even notice that. I just used to trudge on, especially if you have young children, you feel like “I don’t even have time to think about going to the bathroom, let alone my soul.” But I think it’s really important and I can tell when my soul’s not doing well. Can you?

Dave:I can tell when your soul’s not doing well, and you can tell when my soul’s not doing well. We tell each other, and we need help. That’s why Debra Fileta is sitting across the table from us. Counselor, teacher, speaker, writer, what else don’t you do? You do everything.

Ann:Mom, wife; she’s pretty remarkable. But here’s the amazing thing, because—

Dave:I know what you’re going to say. Her soul’s good.

Ann:No,

Dave:No.

Ann:Before we started the interview, Debra, you were talking about how you’re really pretty balanced. You have a lot going on, but you’re not working every single day.

Debra:No. I don’t want to sound braggy.

Dave:Go ahead.

Ann:Go ahead; sound braggy.

Debra:I don’t want to sound like I have it all together because life is hard. There’re burdens that we carry that people don’t know about, but I will say the Lord has helped me see that I have limited capacity. I can only do so much and so I offer him the loaves and fish that I have, the small bits, and I trust that he will multiply it. And that has been the theme ever since the beginning when I was writing books with a newborn and a 20-month-old and just trying to figure out how I’m going to do this.

Ann:Those of you who just had your babies are all little and preschoolers, you don’t even like Debra right now because—

Dave:She’s writing books.

Ann:She’s writing books as she’s caring for her preschoolers. Who is that? But you’ve done it.

Debra:I have, and it’s the small loaves and fish that I have offered, small. “This is all I got for today, God. I have 20 minutes.” “This is all I got today. I have 30 minutes.” “This is all I got today to serve you.” And some days it was nothing. This is all I have for today. And God takes the loaves and the fish and He’s the one that multiplies them.

So I am not in the business of trying to multiply my gifts and my talents and my ministry; that’s on Him. That burden is His to carry. Mine is just to be faithful with what’s in front of me today; to stay healthy today and to just enjoy what God has given me today. And so that’s kind of been where my heart is. I don’t work like crazy. I’m not a workaholic. So when you see all the things that you see, “Wow, Debra’s doing so much.” Actually, no, I’m doing a little bit and God is multiplying it, and I’m trusting Him with that.

Ann:That’s good.

Dave:That’s crazy because when we go on your Instagram or whatever it looks like, “Wow, this girl never stops.”

Debra:No, I work two and a half days a week and I’m with my kids the rest of the time. I’m prioritizing them. They’re here with me right now. You don’t hear them?

Dave:You have a whole crew here.

Ann:You and John are homeschooling.

Debra:Yeah, we are homeschooling. We get to bring them along and just try to keep a healthy family unit as much as possible. And you know what’s interesting, the more that you pour out—I’m a counselor. I’m a mom. I’m doing this. I’m writing books.

Ann:You’re a wife.

Debra:—the more that you need to fill up. You can’t pour out if you’re not filling up. And I do think some people have higher capacity. So maybe I have a five-gallon tank and somebody else has a three-gallon tank, but guess what? I have to keep that five-gallon tank filled to the brim if I’m going to do what God has called me to do.

Ann:I’m thinking of our friend Bruce, whose wife is pregnant with number four.

Dave:Our friend Bruce who’s sitting in the audio room right now; that Bruce?

Ann:Yes. I’m just thinking he’s got all these girls. His wife is homeschooling. She’s pregnant with their fourth. It’s crazy. It’s chaotic. I’m thinking of that person who feels like “I don’t have five minutes to myself, let alone filling my soul up.” What about that person that’s saying, “How do I get five minutes even for my marriage, let alone myself?”

Dave:I mean that’s Debra’s life.

Ann:I know.

Debra:Well, first of all—

Ann:You have four kids.

Debra:I think it’s a lie from the pit of hell that I don’t have the time. I really do. We have the time. I have four children. And to think that I don’t have the time is the victim mentality.

Ann:Oh, that’s what I lived under all the time.

Debra:God has given us everything we need to thrive in the life that he’s given us. I don’t think soul care is a luxury. Like, “Oh, if I find five minutes, I’ll take care of myself.”

Ann:Which is the name of Debra’s new book, Soul Care.

Debra:It is a necessity. If I don’t do this, I will not survive. I will not be healthy if I don’t do this. So first of all, our belief system about it has to change. It’s like, “Oh, I don’t have time to breathe. I don’t have time to eat. I don’t have time to drink.” No, if you don’t do these things, you will not survive. So it’s not a luxury, it’s a necessity.

I even think of that mom of four, it’s a necessity for you to do this so that you can be a healthy mom if you want to pour into these kids. It’s a necessity for you, pastor. You feel pulled in a million directions. It’s a necessity if you’re pouring into these people. This is a responsibility, and we have to stay filled.

And soul care is not just something we do for us. We fill up so that we can pour out the way that God calls us to. And this is modeled in the life of Jesus. Jesus came to be the ultimate outpouring of love and sacrifice and servanthood; but in order to pour out the way that God called Him to, He had to stay filled.

Ann:It reminds me of John 4 with the woman at the well when He says to her, “I will become a spring of living water.” And you’re saying that that’s what Jesus can give us; that we’re a spring that flows out. He is the source of it, but we can continue to thrive.

I’m just telling you; I was totally that victim as my kids, three little boys under five. I would go to bed thinking, “I have no life. I have no time,” and as a result, I was the sickest physically that I had ever been.

Debra:I believe it.

Ann:Because I probably wasn’t taking care of my soul.

Dave:So let’s talk about some of these. It’s right here on your subtitle: Find Life-giving Rhythms.

Debra:Yeah.

Dave:Want to go there? What are some of these life-giving rhythms?

Debra:Okay, let’s start with the first rhythm that Jesus practiced to care for his soul. And these are not in a specific order. In fact, I actually wrote a special quiz, DebraFileta.com/soulcarequiz where you go and take five minutes, fill out some questions, and it’ll tell you which of the rhythms you’re the weakest at.

Ann:Oh, I should have done this before we got here.

Debra:It would’ve been interesting to see.

Ann:Give us one question.

Dave:Well, I got to be honest. I was on your site last night and I saw the quiz and I thought, I don’t have time. There’s a game on, so I didn’t take it.

Debra:Well, great.

Dave:I really didn’t. I was like, I should do this.

Ann:You should have told me; I would’ve taken it.

Debra:As we talk through these, you’ll recognize which one’s the weakest, but I think that’s the one where you should begin. If you think about that five-gallon tank like we talked about earlier, there’s holes and we have to start by plugging up the holes. So start with the one that you’re weakest because that’s where you’re leaking the most energy and time and emotional resources. So start there.

But the first one is the rhythm of nourish; that is all about nutrition, hydration and movement and how those things actually affect our body. We’re talking about physical things and some people are like, “Well, why are you starting with physical? Is physical really that important?” Well, you cannot go to Judea and Samaria and the ends of the earth when you’re sick and tired and fatigued because of your own self-sabotage, your own neglect.

I was on a ministry trip where I hadn’t had a sip of water for a whole day because I was filming. This was a while back. The next morning I woke up and my heart was racing like you wouldn’t believe. I woke up and it was like 180 beats per minute. I had this really abnormal tachycardia episode and tons of cardiology tests later, even heart surgery later, they’ve concluded that it’s a combination of my hormonal imbalances throughout the month plus dehydration.

And it’s funny because dehydration is something we don’t think about, but I could have sworn this was a spiritual attack. This is Satan himself coming into my hotel room. But how often do we blame it on spiritual warfare when we haven’t eaten, we haven’t drank, we hardly move. We’re not taking care of our physical body and we’re saying it’s the enemy. When the enemy is like, “I don’t have to do a thing. I can sit back here because you’re doing a great job sabotaging your life and your ministry;” by not taking care of this body that God has given you.

Ann:Do you think we’re more neglectful as believers sometimes because we’re so concerned about the spiritual part of our lives?

Debra:I think so.

Ann:That that doesn’t feel as important.

Debra:I think so, and I think we counteract the fact that the world obsesses over body so that we almost like, “Let’s just ignore it all together.” But Jesus did not ignore his body. Jesus took the time to eat healthy foods, whole foods, nutritious foods. That’s most of what they had back then. He took the time to stop and say to his disciples, “Come and eat breakfast. Let me prepare it for you.

Ann:He made it for them, yeah.

Debra:Because you need to eat. I think of my Middle Eastern mom who’s like, come and eat. It’s always like, come and eat. Make sure you’re eating. Make sure you’re nourished. Jesus took the time to stop and drink. You talked about the woman at the well. What caused him to be there is that he was thirsty and needed to stop for a drink himself. He didn’t neglect his own needs.

Ann:And his disciples went off to get food.

Debra:—for him. Like, “Go get some food. We need to eat.” And Jesus took time to move. And back then there wasn’t cars. He wasn’t royalty, so He didn’t have a chariot. Biblical experts have theorized looking at scripture that He probably walked about 40,000 steps a day.

Ann:Whoa.

Debra:Which blows my 10,000-step goal—

Ann:Me too.

Debra:—out of the water. But do you know that 20 minutes of brisk walking per day increases your serotonin and dopamine levels almost to the level of an antidepressant? So think about the health that was going on in his body as he’s trying to align his physical body so that he can do all that God has called him to do.

Ann:I’m thinking as a mom, I’m thinking of our teenagers. I remember when our boys had gone through this phase of video games and as a mom, so often I’m like, “Guys, we’re getting out of the house. We’re going to do some stuff physically.” So even as parents, this is probably important for our kids as well.

Debra:Oh, very important. I have three boys and a girl, and I’ve noticed my three boys, even their emotional energy needs to come out physically.

Ann:Yes.

Debra:So a wrestling match makes them feel so much better at the end of a long day. Boys love to wrestle. It’s like, what is that about these boys? Why do they love to wrestle? Getting out their energy, going for a walk, shooting some hoops outside can naturally help decrease cortisol. It decreases those levels of cortisol. So it’s one aspect of keeping ourselves healthy and keeping our souls healthy.

Ann:That’s good.

Debra:And it’s one that Jesus himself did not neglect.

Dave:I mean, I remember when our boys were little, we had three boys. They’d be just crazy. It’s just driving you nuts.

Ann:In the winter, especially in Michigan.

Dave:And we’d be like, “Okay, we’re going outside.” And I literally would sprint 50 yards, sprint back, “Try and beat dad” for 20 minutes and they loved it.

Ann:I know.

Dave:It’s like I’m dying, but they need to do this. But here’s the thing.

Debra:There’s something to that.

Dave:Yeah, you just connected something I don’t think a lot of us do. You connected your physical nourishment of your body to the great commission. I don’t even know if listeners caught that. You don’t go to the ends of the world. That’s the great commission. God calls us to take the kingdom, take the gospel, take his grace to the world. And we think that’s here, physical’s way down here.

Debra:I know.

Dave:And you said, “No, you can’t do it if you’re sick, if you’re not healthy, if you’re—that’s a great connection for people to say that it matters.

Debra:It matters. And even as you were talking about that mom of four, it matters for her too. Because you cannot give your best when you’re sick and tired and depleted because of your own self sabotage. Now I understand that there are some genetic illnesses. There are some things that come out of nowhere that we have to face, and it’s not a reflection of our nourishment, but many times we have power and control and we’re not taking it seriously. We’re not taking responsibility.

Dave:So balance that with another rhythm, rest.

Debra:Yeah, let’s talk about the rhythm of rest. My favorite verse is in the book of Mark, when Jesus climbed on a boat and took a nap. It says they found him at the hull taking a nap. And it’s not like he didn’t know there was a storm coming, but he had just finished a long day of ministry. You would think, “But he only has three years, why is he napping?”

Dave:Yeah.

Debra:There’s people that need to be healed.

Dave:Seize the day; seize the moment.

Debra:“What are you doing taking a nap right now?” My publisher had these shirts made for the book launch of Soul Care that said, “Jesus took naps. Be more like Jesus.” And some people feel guilty sleeping and resting. So in the section on rest, I spend some time talking about the science and psychology of sleep and how many hours we need and the neurology behind that, the importance of sleep and rest. But it’s not just about that.

We talk about sleep hygiene. We talk about all the importance that comes with sleep. But in that section, I also talk about rhythms of rest. Not just, how many hours do you sleep? That’s important. But also, what is the rhythm of rest in your life look like in your day, in your week, in your month, in your year? I talk about this concept of living at 85 percent, which means giving yourself margin with your energy expenditure. When you get a paycheck, Dave, I really hope you don’t spend a hundred percent of it right there and then.

Dave:No, but my wife does.

Debra:I don’t believe it. I know Ann.

Dave:No we don’t. We don’t.

Debra:Right. But why do we do that with our emotional expenditure? So what does it look like to live at 85 percent? I always talk to my clients: “Live at 85 percent. Give yourself some margin for when other things come in and you need to expend energy on certain things.” And here’s what was interesting. I talk about the concept of living at 85 percent to a lot of my clients. And when you look at the seven days a week that God calls us to work—six days work, one day rest—that comes out to exactly 85, point, a couple numbers, percent.

Ann:Interesting.

Debra:I thought that was fascinating. I was like, “It’s right there in the scriptures.” But 85 percent, what does your life look like as you look at your schedule? Do you have that type of margin in your life?

Ann:Give an example of what that could look like even for your own life.

Debra:Well, I think of all the evenings we have in a week, how many of those are dedicated to rest, to things that are going to restore and fill you up? Not just output, but input. Think about your weekly schedule, what’s dedicated to input versus output? Think about the things that you say yes to as you’re planning out your year and where you’re going and what you’re doing and how much work you have. Where do you put limits in order to make sure that you’re not desperate for vacation because you are about to die? We don’t want to get to that point. We have to be living with this level of energy that gets us to vacation. Like, okay, this is a nice treat, but it’s not like I was going to die if I didn’t get it.

Ann:So it’s balance.

Debra:It’s living at 85 percent and that means saying “No” to a good 15 percent of what’s on your plate right now.

Dave:And I’m guessing as you even council people and you have the whole team of counselors—you tell me—don’t most people live their lives like they live their money. Most people spend 120 percent; they go in debt. That’s pretty common for the average American.

Debra:Yeah.

Dave:They’re in debt for whatever. Don’t we do the same thing with what you just said? I don’t live at 85 percent. I live at 103 and I’m burning out and I just keep going. Is that how most people live?

Debra:Yeah, I believe so. And in Christian culture, we want to do it for God, but there’s an aspect of pride there if you ask me to think that I’m the one that can do it all versus the humility of saying, “Lord, I can’t. I need you; fill in the gaps on my behalf. This is all I have.” Jesus himself took time to rest. How much more do we need to take rest seriously?

Ann:Does rest look different for different people?

Debra:Yeah, I would imagine it does. I think sleep is a basic component, seven to nine hours minimum. Assessing your sleep hygiene: what are you doing at night? What’s keeping you up? I think that’s a basic thing, but I also think rest meaning things that fill me and give me energy and make me feel balanced rather than depleted. And that’s going to look different for everybody. We’ll get into that a little bit more in one of the later sections.

Ann:I told Dave last night, I was exhausted physically and emotionally, and part of that is just doing six interviews in the day. And I told him I had 16,000 steps last week on, I think it was a Saturday. And I power washed the driveway for three hours straight.

Dave:I did too, just in case you’re wondering.

Ann:But I said I felt energized after that; 16,000 steps and doing the power wash. I love physical kind of labor. It restores me, but yesterday I was feeling so depleted I had to go to bed early. So that’s what I mean. It seemed like I was working, but there’s certain physical work that I love it. It gives me energy.

Debra:Right. I think that makes sense. And I think when you work in a job where there’s emotional output, sometimes the physical can be what fills you versus if you work physical labor jobs. Sometimes you need the balance of having the emotional relational to fill you and so it does look different for everybody. Rest does look different, but I do think it’s something we need to seek God on and make sure that we are prioritizing sleep and boundaries as far as having margin in our life and rhythms of rest.

Ann:That’s good.

Dave:I mean is one of the Ten Commandments we break more than any other, Sabbath?

Debra:I would imagine that’s the easiest one to just skim over and skip. How many of us really take a Sabbath and focus on getting filled up and just having the humility to know, “I need to stop and trust that God is going to keep moving on my behalf while I stop.” And what does it look like for us to have that mentality of humility?

Dave:Well, I mean it’s interesting to me, and I’ve preached on this as a pastor at times, of the Ten Commandments, if you’re God and you’re like the ten most important things, I need to make commandments. I don’t think anybody thinks rest makes the top ten. It’s important; top 50, maybe top 20.

Debra:Murder is definitely up there.

Dave:But are you like top ten? And so if God says rest, take a day six one. You said it before six work. It’s like, oh my goodness.

Ann:Even He says, “So that it may go well for you.”

Dave:Yeah.

Ann:That’s interesting, isn’t it?

Debra:He wants us to be in it for the long haul. He has given us rhythms, formulas to show us what that looks like.

Ann:Okay. We’ve covered some. Let’s do one more before we end.

Dave:Can we do one more?

Debra:Yeah, let’s, maybe the rhythm of protect, because we just talked about boundaries.

Ann & Dave: Yeah.

Debra:I think people don’t often assume that Jesus had boundaries, but Jesus said “No” and “Not yet” on a regular basis. Jesus was not concerned with what people thought. I think people pleasers are the ones that struggle the most with boundaries. Why do you have a hard time saying no? Because I don’t want them to think this or that or to assume or to get hurt or to be sad. But when you know your calling, this is what God has called me to. When I think of the word protect, I think of boundaries. I think oftentimes Christians think that boundaries are wrong. It’s wrong to say no, but protecting is taking care of what you’ve been assigned, what you’ve been called to. I’m protecting my calling. And when I know my calling—

Ann:You’re good at this, Dave. I feel like this is one of your strengths.

Dave:In what way?

Ann:You put boundaries around your life. You’ll say no to people, no to things. I struggle with that a lot more than you do. And I like that you do that because I feel like it protects me too.

Dave:But I would ask this of Debra is I think that’s true about me and I protect our marriage. I protect a lot of things that are critical in my life. I don’t think I’m real good at protecting my soul. I run, run, run, run, run, run. I don’t put boundaries to say, “You know what? I’m running too hard. We’re running too hard. I’m saying no.”

Debra:Because you protect what you think matters. Right? It’s like I have to protect my wife and my family.

Dave:See, she’s doing it again.

Ann:I know, that went deep into me.

Dave:She went into my soul.

Ann:We protect the things that we think matter.

Debra:But think about your view of self. And I know enough about you at this point, Dave. You’re a low needs guy. And I think that does go back to some of that chaos. And I got low needs, but I’m going to take care of Ann. I’m going to take care of our marriage. I’m going to take care of our relationship. It makes sense that you protecting yourself doesn’t make the list of priorities.

Dave:Yeah, I’m good.

Debra:If you think about you protecting yourself also protects your calling: what God has called you to, who God has called you to. It just changes how you think about it. So we protect because this is what God has called us to, and we’ve got to do a good job with it. The disciples were like, “Jesus, you’re wanted. Come over here, do this.” And He’s like, “Nope, I’m not going back there. I’m not going back to Capernaum. I’m going here. We’re doing this next. This is what we’re doing because I know my calling.” And so Jesus protected His calling.

He protected his heart. How often did He withdraw to lonely places just to be with the Father? It’s like so many people need me. I know, but I need to be filled with the Father. Do we protect our relationship with God? Do we protect those hours, those moments, those five minutes. I don’t even have five minutes like we talked about in the episode earlier, but do we protect that time because we realize how important it is. Jesus knew He could not do what God had called Him to do without being filled.

Dave:How about protecting our soul and our life from sin, from temptation? Is that part of this? Because even as you’re saying that, I’m thinking, I was a pastor for 30 years and I’m watching pastor after pastor, and not just pastors fall, they’re running hard. Everybody in their congregation’s like, “I want to be like that.” And nobody knows that in the dark there’s sin going on. And probably because they’re trying to fill themselves up with something that’s empty.

Debra:Exactly. Exactly.

Dave:But is that something you think about too, is I got to protect this area of my life as well?

Debra:Well, I think the people who are the most susceptible are the ones that are the most empty; 1000 percent. When I look at even addictions that come up, this is empty people who are trying to fill up with all of these unhealthy things. Empty things can’t fill empty people.

Ann:Define empty.

Debra:Well, let me ask you a question back. When I ask you how filled do you feel? How full are you right now? Zero being I feel totally depleted. I have no emotional energy. I’m tired. I feel spiritually run down. Ten being I feel filled to the brim. I feel overflowing. I feel filled with God. I feel filled in relationships, all these rhythms that we’re talking about. The closer you tick towards zero, the more susceptible you are to sin. I have never met an addict who said they felt ten out of ten in their fullness.

So by setting boundaries, we are actually protecting ourselves from getting empty. We’re protecting ourselves from those susceptible, vulnerable places. I think the addiction cycle is people trying to practice this temporary quick fix. “What’s going to make me feel better? I feel horrible right now.” I’m stressed, porn. I’m exhausted, food. What is actually going to fill me up? It’s these long lasting, healthy rhythms, not these quick fixes.

Ann:You know we’re having a good conversation, when the host is starting to think of all the people, they’re going to send this to.

Dave:Is that what you’re thinking?

Ann:I heard this recording, yes. This is just really good, practical and biblical help. So we’re out of time. I can’t wait to talk more about this tomorrow.

Dave:I mean, we’ve only hit what, about half of them?

Ann:Yeah, we’re halfway.

Dave:So stay tuned. We’re going to hit the rest tomorrow. Can we hit all the rest tomorrow?

Debra:I think we can. I think we can.

Ann:Good.

Dave:Well, this is FamilyLife Today, and we’re Dave and Ann Wilson. And we’ve been talking with Debra Fileta. What a great conversation about her book, Soul Care: Find Life-Giving Rhythms, and you can get your copy right now. Go online to FamilyLifeToday.com, and in the show notes, you’ll find a link. Or you feel free to call us at 800-358-6329. Again, the number is 800-F as in Family, L as in Life, and then the word TODAY.

Ann:And did you know that Dave and I have a team at FamilyLife Today ready to pray for you? So if you need prayer, please don’t hesitate to reach out to us.

Dave:Go to FamilyLife.com/Prayforme, and we will pray for you, and our team will pray for you.

Ann:And let me just stop for a second to say “Thank you” to everyone who gave during our yearend matching gift campaign. Those gifts are still coming in and we’re still even totaling up what was given, but we have to say, “Thank you.” We cannot do this without you, and we appreciate you so much.

Dave:And tomorrow we’re going to jump back in with Debra Fileta and talk a little bit more about Soul Care, finding rhythms for emotional health. Don’t we all need that?

Ann:Yes.

Dave:It’s going to be great. So that’s coming up tomorrow.

Ann:We’ll see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today. FamilyLife Today is a donor-supported production of FamilyLife®, a Cru® Ministry. Helping you pursue the relationships that matter most.

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