Beyond Small Talk and Sports: Brian Goins, Ed Uszynski, and Darrin Mabuni

Ed: “Isolation breeds distortion.” [Crawford Loritts]

Brian: Yes.

Ed: It gets you in trouble. When you get by yourself, you get distorted in your mind, in the way you view God; in the way you view others; the way you view yourself. It always ends up leading to something bad.

Shelby: Welcome to FamilyLife Today, where we want to help you pursue the relationships that matter most. I’m Shelby Abbott, and your hosts are Dave and Ann Wilson. You can find us at FamilyLifeToday.com.

Dave: This is FamilyLife Today!

Dave: Alright! Today is men’s day, day three, at FamilyLife Today. We’ve got Darrin, Ed, and Brian back. If you missed the last two days, go back and listen. We talked about praying with your wife to love her and cherish her. If you start praying with your wife, she’s going to light up.

Ed: Yes.

Dave: Right? That was day one. There were more things, but that was it. Day two, yesterday, Brian, you got in to, especially, “Let’s talk about darkness.” I mean, we all did. The darkness that we struggle with, sort of the secret sins, sometimes. We even talked about porn a little bit. And I think we should go a little bit deeper on that, because one of the things we said yesterday—you guys remind me if I’m right—is, one of the ways to deal with the darkness and the sin in your life—the temptations that are secret—is to tell somebody; tell another guy.

A lot of guys are [thinking], “Alright, how do I do that? Where do I start?”

Ed: Yes.

Dave: This is not just something that you jump at, like, “Okay, I’m going to tell him about my porn thing I just did yesterday.” And then, we didn’t even talk about: do you tell your wife? Let’s talk about the man thing.

Ed: A lot of guys just don’t have anybody to talk to!

Dave: No.

Ed: I mean, we know this from Weekend to Remember^®conferences, and just talking to guys and asking, “Who are your guys in your life?” And more often than not, guys say, “Yeah, I don’t really have anybody that I talk about these things with.” So, they’ll come up and talk to us, as a speaker, about things that they really need to be talking about in a more local community, but they don’t have anybody.

So, what do you do with that, if you have nobody? You have no idea even where to start?

Darrin: We say that, because I think a lot of times, we qualify all the guys we hang out with. [We] say, “Oh, I can’t talk to him. Oh, not him!” And we don’t take a step back and say, “No, I can.” Because we may be the first person starting the conversation.

Ed: Interesting.

Darrin: It takes faith, it takes strength and courage, to be able to “go there,” I think. So, that’s one thing. I think when people say, “I don’t have anybody to talk to,” it really is, “I’ve qualified all of these people, and they’re disqualified.”

Ed: That’s true. You’ve got more people around you than you realize!

Darrin: Yes.

Ed: You’ve just already chosen ahead of time that you’re not going to have that kind of connection with them.

Darrin: Yes.

Dave: So, you guys have guys in your life. Brian shared yesterday a confession [he] made to Ed. You have this relationship. I think some guys heard that and [thought], “I don’t have an Ed in my life I don’t have a Brian in my life. How do I get that? How do I find these guys?”

Ed: Good question.

Brian: That is a good question; and I think it’s a question that, frankly, felt a lot easier in college or maybe even before I was married. There’s something about marriage where it’s like, “Maybe I should be sharing all of that with my wife,” and “The guys are kind of too busy,” and it’s like, what did you have in college? Well, you had time, generally.

Ed: Yes.

Brian: And you probably put yourself in contexts where those conversations might have happened in some way, whether that’s—

Ed: —hanging out and playing cards—

Brian: —yes; yes, exactly!

Ed: You know, playing ping pong or down where everybody’s handing out, playing games.

Brian: Right. You just get to know guys, and then you start having more of that, “Okay, maybe I can go a little bit deeper with that person,” but it’s because you spent time with them. And frankly, when I get married, I’m spending more time with my wife, and with my kids—

Dave: —yes, yes.

Brian: —than I am with other guys.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: So, I take myself out of that opportunity to go deeper.

Dave: So, how do you find guys like that, that you feel like, “I can be safe enough with this guy. I can go Level 5-ish, down where it’s a little dark, and be honest?”

Ed: yes.

Dave: You guys have them! How did you find them?

Darrin: Yes; well, I think a lot of times we start with—we think about it and say, “You have that.” We look at the end result, and you think, “Well, I can’t get there.” That’s not where you start. We all start in the beginning, and so where you start is, even, just thinking through all the guys in your life, in your day. Taking the time to take a little sheet of paper (or take your phone out) and write down all the people you actually interact with in the day. You’d be surprised—or in a week—how many men you actually interact with. And we automatically cut them out and disqualify them. Start there, and just maybe pick a couple that you want to talk with.

When we talk about conversation, you’re not going to just jump into intimacy or depth. Just start talking about things that you enjoy and see if there’s any kind of connection. Being able to maybe go and shoot some baskets or do something—I was going to say, “have coffee,” but we don’t do that.

Dave: No, you were going to say, “Go lift weights.” [Laughter]

Darrin: Well, you can lift weights! But doing something, or even just having some time to chat about the game and seeing if there’s some connection. Start there, and then move a little deeper with a little something about my family or my kids or myself.

Brian: Yes. I think what I’ve found—because part of it is, I don’t even know how to start these conversations, right? I don’t know where to go, or how to get to whatever level I need to get to to have intimacy with another guy. So, putting yourself in contexts where you can experience that and have, almost, a third party sort of help you, so it’s not like me having to come up with all the stuff; whether that’s a men’s retreat, whether that’s a men’s Bible study—it’s probably going to happen in some faith-centered arena, because I don’t see this happening at work or when you’re playing sports with somebody. Those conversation don’t just happen, right?

Dave: Yes.

Brian: So, I need to put myself in a place where I’m going to have to be intentional over time, in a certain set amount of time. You know, we were just working on Art of Marriage^®.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: And I think one of the best things you can do, if you want to have that opportunity, is: sign up for something like that.

Ed: Yes.

Brian: Do a six-week study or a marriage retreat where you’re going with other guys, and they, actually, are prompting you to have conversations. You realize, “I can do this!”

Ed: Yes; and you could be the one to initiate—

Brian: —yes, maybe—

Ed: —right? Because maybe nobody else is doing it. You be that guy! People [say] all the time, “Be the person you want [someone] to be.”

Brian: Yes.

Ed: You know, the person you’re looking for—

Brian: —being that guy. That’s good.

Ed: Yes; and even just listening to you guys, I’m thinking, “Alright, all of this presupposes, one, that I am going to make a commitment that isolation is not going to characterize my life anymore.

Dave: Good.

Ed: Again, as you’re listening to this, nobody knows whether you’re committed to staying alone; because if you are, none of this matters. God is saying, “The way I rigged this thing, you need other people; to be able to experience Me to the fullest, but also just to experience the joy and the life that I have for you. It’s in the midst of other people.”

That’s a decision we have to make. But then, two, am I going to be the type of person who is going to equip myself? To start looking for those relationships—dudes that I can connect with? Like what you just said, Darrin: it doesn’t start at Level 5—

Darrin: —no—

Ed: —but it at least starts by saying, “Let’s get together; let’s get together and do Art of Marriage,” or “Let’s go do something that we like to do together.”

Brian: Yes.

Ed: Then just start to talk. You know, Brian, you talked about having questions. That’s how it really starts, isn’t it? It’s me being curious about you instead of waiting for you to be curious about me, just like we say in marriage, okay?

Brian: Yes.

Ed: It’s the same thing. If I’m trying to develop relationships, what does it look like to be curious about someone else’s life? How would you guys do that? Just answer that; what are some questions that you ask just to be curious when you’re with other people (other guys)?

Dave: I know that when—35-something years ago—I moved to Detroit to be the Detroit Lions Chaplain—did I mention that before?

Ed: That’s number five. [Laughter]

Brian: We’re keeping a tally!

Dave: No, literally; I was a Christian long enough to know [that] what we’re talking about right now is men need men.

Ed: Yes.

Dave: If you want to become a man, you need men.

Ed: You got that.

Dave: And couples need couples. We’re talking today about this man thing. I knew, as soon as I got to Detroit (and I didn’t know a lot of people), “I’ve got to find my guys!”

Ed: Yes.

Dave: “I’ve got to find these guys!” And I’ve preached on this before. I said, “You want to find people that you connect with, with what I call ‘affinity’. You like the same stuff!” So, I found these guys, and I said, “Let’s make it a morning thing, before work.” So, it was at six a.m. [on] Monday mornings. I would meet these guys; we started meeting.

The other area—here’s the second one for me—is intensity. How intense do you want to be with these guys? Do you just want to be superficial? “We play sports together. ‘Hey, you’re good! See you later. We’ll work out again next week,’” or do you want to go somewhere with it?

Ed: Right.

Dave: Do you want to say, “I want to open my life a little bit. I want to guide my life”? I was looking for—not Level 10, but—intense. I was like, “I want somebody to know me—”

Brian: —“Iron sharpens iron”—

Dave: —yes, and “I want to know them.”

Ed: So, how did you do that? What did that look like?

Dave: Well, here’s what happened (and this is sort of funny): I get these guys, and we start meeting. I’m not kidding—it had to be eight or nine meetings in—every week, and I’m really starting to like these guys. I walked in one day and said, “Guys, I have to confess something that I struggled with this week. I feel safe with you guys; I haven’t even told my wife yet, but I’m going to tell you, then I’m going to go home and tell her.”

They were like, “Wow! What is it?”

Brian: Now you’ve got their interest.

Dave: Yes, yes.

Brian: Alright.

Dave: I’ve got your interest now, too. [Laughter]

Brian: Right, right.

Dave: Everybody’s listening. They just stopped the car and said, “What’s he going to say?”

You’ll laugh now, but this was back in the day when Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue came out.

Brian: Oh, yes.

Dave: And I never looked at it! Ann would get that—because I was a subscriber, but she would get that one—before it got to our mailbox.

Ed: Yes.

Dave: I never even saw that issue! Well, somehow, it got through, and I looked at it.

Ed: Okay.

Dave: I didn’t spend hours on it, but I flipped through each page. So, I said this to these guys: “I feel horrible. I haven’t done this in years, and I’m going to go home and tell Ann, but I need to tell you guys.” Do you know what their response was?

Ed: “Me, too.”

Dave: No! To a guy, the response was, “You are a corrupt, perverted man.”

Ed: No!

Dave: I am not kidding! I thought they were kidding at first. Each guy was like, “Dude, that is—” I said, “Wait, wait, wait. None of you have ever—not one time?” “Never. We would never do this!”

Brian: Come on!

Dave: That was the response. So, guess what I did when I got in my car?

“These aren’t my guys.”

Brian: Yes.

Darrin: Yes.

Dave: I mean, they’re great guys! I love these guys. None of them are bad—

Ed: So, that’s when it doesn’t turn in the other direction. [Laughter]

Brian: No, it doesn’t!

Ed: We were waiting for it, like, “That’s really what happened?”

Dave: That’s what happened.

Darrin: Wow!

Dave: And I got in the car, and that’s the end of it. Here’s the encouragement for guys: sometimes, you think you found your guys and you say, “This isn’t working.” Try another group!

Brian: Try a different group.

Dave: Sometimes, you try a small group at church—even a marriage group—

Ed: —yes, don’t give up—

Dave: —and it’s not really connecting. Keep going! It isn’t like, “This doesn’t work.” No, you’ve got to find your guys.

Guess what? I found my guys, and they are Level 5 guys, where you say something like that, and they say, “Brother, thank you for sharing. Let’s walk this together.”

Brian: Yes.

Dave: It isn’t always, “Me, too,” although a lot of times, it is; but I remember, it was like they didn’t want to go to the intensity level. You guys know what I know. They’re all lying!

Brian: Oh, yes! I was going to say—

Dave: —They’re lying!

Brian: I was going to say, “Let’s roll tape on the last week of your life!”

Darrin: Right.

Brian: Come on!

Dave: Exactly! But they were not willing to go there, and they were good with that in their group. “Okay, that’s your group. I’m going to go find my guys, and my wife is going to thank me for finding my guys.”

Ed: Yes.

Dave: So, that intensity thing—you’ve got to decide, “How badly do I want this?”

Darrin: Yes.

Dave: “And do I want guys that want it as badly.” If you get that—man! I have guys now who’ve been in my life 30 years, and it was like the next group or two after that. We’ve wept together, and we’ve shared struggles together, and I’ve done their daughters’ and sons’ weddings.

Ed: Yes.

Dave: And it’s the greatest gift God’s ever given me and given Ann and our family.

[Emotional] I tear up thinking about these guys, because you can’t be a man without them.

Brian: Yes.

Dave: I think we give up too quickly.

Brian: I think that’s good! You’re going to get burned, right?

Dave: Yes.

Brian: We’re with broken men, and so, you’re going to probably get burned. It doesn’t mean that the principle is not right.

Dave: Right.

Darrin: Yes.

Brian: If you look through Scripture any time, you see a pattern in Scripture where it’s like “Paul and Barnabas,” “David and Jonathan,” “Peter and John.” You have—Jesus! Jesus—the first thing He did when He came down—

Ed: —He got some guys.

Darrin: Yes.

Brian: If there’s anybody who didn’t need anybody—

Dave: —He got His guys!

Ed and Brian: He got His guys.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: There’s somebody that always follows the “and,” and when somebody doesn’t follow the “and,” it’s trouble.

Ed: Yes.

Brian: “Samson and—”

Ed: —Delilah—

Brian: —Delilah.

Ed: And nobody else.

Brian: That’s right, you know?

When David wasn’t able to be with Jonathan (because he got killed), and he wasn’t with his fifty mighty men who were around him—

Ed: —he got in trouble.

Brian: It was “David and—”

All: Bathsheba.

Brian: It’s like, “Who follows the ‘and’ in your life and in my life?” If I don’t have somebody, then I need to start—like you said, Darrin; I need to start—putting myself in contexts and places where I can start developing that.

Ed: You mentioned Art of Marriage earlier, and I remember Crawford Loritts, who’s in this Art of Marriage again—

Brian: —man, it’s good!

Ed: I remember when he said, “Isolation breeds distortion.”

Brian: Yes.

Ed: It gets you in trouble. When you get by yourself, you get distorted in your mind, in the way you view God; the way you view others; the way you view yourself. It always ends up leading to something bad.

It’s interesting, we’re given these bad examples; and, Dave, again, I can’t believe that happened to you. I do want to say this: you have to be prepared that you may get burned, but I think most of the time (at least in my experience), when I’ve been honest, and when I’ve brought stuff like that to the table, even with guys I hardly know, it actually, usually, elicits a response that’s saying, “Thank you.”

Dave: Yes, it opens up the room.

Brian: Yes.

Ed: “You just gave me permission to be honest. I didn’t know we were going to play like that but thank you for that.”

Dave: Yes.

Ed: Most of the time, I think that happens; but don’t be surprised when it doesn’t, and don’t quit!

Brian: Don’t give up.

Ed: You’ve got to decide what your commitment level is to perception management. That’s the thing I’m thinking about. If I’m committed to making sure that you view me a certain way—

Dave: —yes—

Ed: —I’m probably never going to be able to be honest.

Dave: Yes.

Ed: I have to decide ahead of time, “I’m broke, fellas. I’m coming in broke! Now, there may be some things that you like about me, and there are some good things, but I’m starting with brokenness.” And if I lead from there into relationships, I think things usually go pretty well.

Brian: It goes a lot better—

Ed: —it does!

Brian: —than trying to maintain the status quo.

Ed: Yes!

Brian: In the sense of, “This is my image.” Everybody looks good from a distance, so why not go ahead and just let them see the real me?

Ed: It’s a decision.

Brian: It’s a decision, though, and it’s not easy.

Dave: Yes. So, talk about this—we’ve talked the last couple of days about being a husband; what about being a dad? How do men in your life help you [to] be a better dad?

I’ve got three sons; you’ve got sons and daughters. So, it’s different in every way. Have you found that to be a real struggle, or has it been something that you’ve navigated pretty successfully? I mean, I grew up with no dad. He was out. So, when I became a dad—and I became a Christian later in my life, so I was like, “I have no idea what a Christian dad looks like.” I was at a loss.

FamilyLife was a huge benefit to me—Dennis Rainey and the materials. That’s why the Art of Marriage is going to be such a gift. It’s going to say, “This is what men do. This is what women do. This is what marriage looks like.” That I needed! I was lost. So, that helped, and other men as well. What about you guys?

Darrin: I so needed other men! My dad was there. I didn’t come to know the Lord until later in life either (as did my dad); but he modeled humility to me, and that carried me a long way. But talk about humility! When I talk about being a dad, when thinking that I know how to do life or walk with Jesus, [and] when I got married, I realized, “Gosh, I know nothing!” When we had our first child, I thought, “Oh, I’m done! What do I know?” It's the most humbling thing, being a dad.

Brian: Yes.

Darrin: Yet, I could draw some upon what my dad taught me. But even more so, getting involved with ministry, getting involved with the church, other men helped me begin to see what it meant to be a dad, a real dad. And then, getting to know my Father in heaven was so huge for me, beginning to shape what it looks like to be a dad. It also put me under the pile!

Brian: Yes, I think about the perception management that you were talking about, and that’s where I get hit as a dad a lot, because I want people to think my kids are great, whether they perform in sports, in school, or whatever. Where I find that I get the most growth is when I realize I have somebody else that I can talk to about my failures as a dad, or if I feel like my kids aren’t measuring up. Man, there’s nothing worse than that 2:00 a.m. call from another parent. You think your daughter’s somewhere, and you realize she hasn’t been. She’s actually been deceiving you for a long time about something in her own life.

Ed: Yes.

Brian: And you realize, “I didn’t even know my own kids.” I thought I was being a good parent and maybe I was being a good parent, but my kids are making their own decisions.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: Who do I share that with?

Ed: Yes.

Brian: Because here’s what I felt in that moment (that 2:00 a.m. moment): I didn’t want to share that with anybody.

All: Yes.

Brian: “I hope nobody finds out about this!”

Ed: You know, what’s interesting to me, again, just in this context—to me, that was one of the—you know, everybody says, “You guys have been hanging out for the last five years,” which we have. So, there is a different level of vulnerability and intimacy that’s developed over time.

But one of the first things we ever talked about when we didn’t know each other that well was sharing honestly about some stuff that was ripping our guts out about our kids.

Brian: Yes.

Ed: So, I just thought of that as you were saying that. Again, it’s a risk, but it’s like, “You’re not made to carry that by yourself,” you know? I remember you saying you felt like you needed to ask Jennifer permission as to who we were going to talk about this with. I’ve done that before, too. “Who outside of our circle is going to know about this?”

Again, there’s a healing. There’s, “Will you bear this burden with me? I don’t know how to make my kids do what I most want them to do!” [Laughter] “Can you join me in carrying that together?” That’s been huge for me, to have other guys that will just tell me the truth about their own inadequacies, and their own victories!”

Brian: Yes, both.

Dave: Yes.

Ed: That’s been as helpful as anything.

Darrin: Yes.

Ed: Guys that have said, “Don’t get so worked up about what’s happening in this moment. Take a longer view. Be patient. Express love. Let them know that you really are there.”

Do you know who has discipled me more in parenting than almost anybody else? Harry Chapin, when he sang “Cat’s in the Cradle.”

Dave: Yes. You want me to do it for you, Ed?

Ed: Oh, man!

Dave: I can do it right now.

Brian: Oh, man! What a tee up for that!

Darrin: There you go!

Ed: Is that good?

Brian: Yes.

Ed: Okay.

Dave: [Singing lyrics to ”Cat’s in the Cradle”]

Ed: Seriously, long before I got married or even had kids, that song has resonated in my mind, just saying, “I don’t want my story, at the end, to look like what he was singing about; that I never made time or space for my kids while they were in the home, so they weren’t going to make time and space for me later.” That’s haunting me, you know?

Images like that are motivating me to try to live differently today.

Brian: And it gives you—I love exposing my kids to some of these other people that are in my life, you know?

Darrin: Oh, yes.

Brian: That’s where it’s like, “I don’t have to actually be the only parent in their life.”

Ed: That’s good. Yes, talk about that; it’s good.

Brian: I think we often end up feeling like—carrying the burden, to me, isn’t just the burden of pains; but it’s also about teeing my kids up to be around other people besides me, because I mess up! I’m broken. I need them to see other examples, because my kids aren’t just like me. They’re not a mini version of me. So, get them around other believers.

You talked with my son, Palmer, when he was at camp, about some tough things that he was going through at college. I was so glad and relieved to know that I’m not the only voice in my son’s life.

Dave: Yes.

Brian: It’s been great—have guys over at your house; let your kids see you interacting with that group of “and” guys so that they know, “Oh, dad’s taking time away from me right now, but he’s actually getting poured into by these other [men].” There’s something about modeling that, and them seeing that this is a part of my rhythm that’s so important.

Ed: Yes.

Brian: So that, when my kids are at an age that I know they need other coaches in their lives, I’ve got other guys to say, “Hey, you know Ed (or Darrin)! He was over at my house. I’d love for you to talk to him about that issue, because, frankly, he knows more about it than I do.”

Darrin: I love what you just said, because I don’t know about for you guys, but for me—have you ever had the situation where your kid comes home, and they’ve just been with a friend of yours, and they say, “Dad, do you know what Brian said?! He said this—” And I’m thinking, “I’ve said that a million times!” [Laughter]

Ed: Right, yes.

Darrin: “But he never heard that from me.”

Brian: Right.

Darrin: So, now, I’ve learned to say, “That’s great!” At the beginning, I said, “Well, we’ve only talked about it twelve times!”

Brian: Twelve times; that’s right.

Ed: Right.

.

Brian: That’s right.

Ed: And you’re offended by it, right?

Darrin: But what I love about what you’re saying is, we get to choose the people who can continue to also “parent” them.

Brian: Yes.

Darrin: That’s so huge, because they will learn from others anyway—

Brian: —yes—

Darrin: —but to be able to have other people in their lives—they’re listening, they’re learning; and to have those other people in their lives—we’re not alone!

Brian: Yes.

Darrin: It kind of leads me back to men: why we’re not alone, and why we pursue other men and start sorting through people that we want to continue to do life with. That matters, even with our family.

Ed: Yes; that’s so good, Darrin. That brings us all the way back to the beginning. You need men—other men—to be married well, to parent well—

Dave: —yes.

Ed: —to live well. Robert Putman—I was thinking about this; Robert Putman—was a sociologist who wrote a book called Bowling—

Dave: —Bowling Alone.

Ed: —Alone. Okay, you know that?

Dave: Oh, yes.

Ed: You guys know that book? Super!

Dave: Yes.

Ed: And what was it that he argued in that book? That we, as a nation, used to have all of these social connections—

Dave: —yes—

Ed: —that were just sort of built into the fabric of the way that we did life. Increasingly, over these last few decades, we’ve gotten more and more separated from each other.

Okay, so, that’s the way things are! As Christian men, again, we need to say, “Not on my watch!”

Brian: Right. That doesn’t have to be our culture.

Ed: It doesn’t have to be our culture! In my corner of the world, I’m going to live in a way that says I value—

Again, I may be in a season where I don’t have a lot of time and space right now. Granted; but don’t let that season turn into a lifetime.

Brian: Yes.

Ed: I’m going to be intentional to move toward other guys, because my wife needs me to do it; my kids need me to do it; and I need it!

Dave: I would just say, men’s day at FamilyLife Today for three days has been pretty rich!

Brian: It’s been fun!

Dave: Thanks, guys!

Ed: Loved it!

Brian: Yes.

Shelby: Yes, I have found that it is really important, not only for me to have other men speaking into my life, but for other men to speak into the lives of my kids as well. I have two daughters, and it’s good for them to have good male role models who are not necessarily me. I love that word! I’m Shelby Abbott, and you’ve been listening to Dave Wilson with Brian Goins, Ed Uszynski, and Darrin Mabuni on FamilyLife Today.

Well, as we approach the spring, you’ve inevitable starting to think about small groups starting up in your church or whatever ministry you’re involved in. FamilyLife’s brand-new Art of Marriage is one of those things that we would love for you to consider, because it really does give a lot of vulnerability and foster great discussions, a lot like the discussion that you heard today in the men’s roundtable.

As soon as you press “play” on it, it generates a really deep knowledge of God and deeper knowledge of each other as you guys go through it together. We’re talking about vulnerable, relatable stuff that really helps to foster hope along with giving you some great marriage input from marriage experts. So, if you want to learn more about the brand-new Art of Marriage. You can go to the Show Notes or ArtofMarriage.com to learn more and grab your leader kit today.

It's Friday, and I want to ask you to pray for the Weekend to Remember marriage events that are happening, starting today and going through Sunday. There are events happening all over the country, including Colorado Springs, Hershey, Hilton Head, Kansas City, Napa, and Tulsa. With over 40 events happening across the country, they’re still going on all through the spring; so, there’s still time to find a location near you and figure out what might be best for your schedule in the coming months.

You can go to WeekendtoRemember.com to figure out a time and place that’s good for you and book your Weekend to Remember marriage getaway right now.

Now, coming up next week, Jared C. Wilson is here to talk about what it really means to understand and experience a close relationship with Jesus on a practical level. That’s next week. We hope you’ll join us.

On behalf of Dave and Ann Wilson, I’m Shelby Abbott. We will see you back next time for another edition of FamilyLife Today.

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